Missing Lew's posts but not the impostor?
Daniel Pitts
apparently the original Lew's post, but it never made it to my news client.
Is this happening to anyone else? Is there something I should adjust?
Thanks,
Daniel.
--
Daniel Pitts' Tech Blog: <http://virtualinfinity.net/wordpress/>
Peter Duniho
<newsgroup....@virtualinfinity.net> wrote:
> I'm seeing a lot of posts by the Fake Lew, and a couple of replies to
> apparently the original Lew's post, but it never made it to my news
> client.
>
> Is this happening to anyone else? Is there something I should adjust?
He's coming through loud and clear over here. Though, his ISP and mine
use the same news provider, so that's not much of a cross-check (on the
other hand, if you see this but not his messages, that should at least
rule out an issue with our news provider). :)
Since not seeing this message would mean there may well be something up
with our news provider: if you don't see this message, please let me
know. :)
Arved Sandstrom
news:488a067a$0$3154$7836...@newsrazor.net...
I think I am seeing virtually all of the Ur-Lew's posts, as evidenced by not
seeing references to posts that never showed up.
AHS
Qu0ll
news:488a067a$0$3154$7836...@newsrazor.net...
> I'm seeing a lot of posts by the Fake Lew, and a couple of replies to
> apparently the original Lew's post, but it never made it to my news
> client.
>
> Is this happening to anyone else? Is there something I should adjust?
Yes, I am experiencing this too. I have noticed on a number of threads that
all I see are the fake posts and not the originals. I think you'll find
that your ISP doesn't keep all posts and it's only through a situation like
this that you notice it.
--
And loving it,
-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llS...@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
Mark Space
> I'm seeing a lot of posts by the Fake Lew, and a couple of replies to
> apparently the original Lew's post, but it never made it to my news client.
>
> Is this happening to anyone else? Is there something I should adjust?
>
> Thanks,
> Daniel.
I'm seeing both posts, Lew's and the odious troll. Sometimes I see
cancel messages too. I think the a-hole is issuing cancel messages for
Lew's posts sometimes as well, although that's a bit intermittent.
Daniel Pitts
Daniel Pitts
wondering if its a problem with my usenet provider (which is not my ISP,
I use NewsRazor), or if Thunderbird is doing something it shouldn't.
Joshua Cranmer
> I'm seeing both posts, Lew's and the odious troll. Sometimes I see
> cancel messages too. I think the a-hole is issuing cancel messages for
> Lew's posts sometimes as well, although that's a bit intermittent.
To be precise, it's Supersedes: headers, which says "replace that
message with this one." Most newsservers and clients ignore said header.
It seems Supersedes (and cancel) were on their way out even in 1997.
--
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
Patricia Shanahan
I don't think it is a Thunderbird issue, because I use it and I see both
coherent and incoherent messages claiming to be from Lew.
Patricia
Mark Space
I also use Thunderbird. If a message is canceled, T-bird shows me a
cancel notice, like "This message was canceled from within Mozilla" when
I click on the post. Sometimes messages that I saw the day before from
Lew get canceled later when I try to re-read a thread.
If you never see those, you might be filtering out cancel notices
somehow. I'm not sure if this is even possible in T-bird, I filter out
bleachbot and such-like manually by name. I guess your ISP could be
filtering out cancel notices.
Lew
> I don't think it is a Thunderbird issue, because I use it and I see both
> coherent and incoherent messages claiming to be from Lew.
The real Lew will sometimes be incoherent, but rarely in such a
surreal fashion. I also do not put conspiracy-theory rants or anti-
Semitic garbage in my sigs, and I don't use obscene or insulting email
addresses as my own email address, which in actuality is
l...@lewscanon.com (or con...@lewscanon.com). I also don't repeat my
own posts with surreal paraphrases. I also don't post from the
Ukraine. I also contribute original thoughts, unlike the "Ur-Lew",
that are germane to the discussion if not always welcome.
I use Thunderbird and I am able to filter out the fake posts.
I am sharply disappointed that the ISPs allow these hate posts to
propagate. I guess eventually the faker will discover that we've all
plonked him and no one is even aware of his posts, much less listening
to his rants, much less finding him in any way engaging or clever.
--
Lew
Patricia Shanahan
I don't think I'm doing anything to filter out cancel notices.
For both the news servers I use, news.ucsd.edu and
news.west.earthlink.net, I can find pairs of messages, one from Lew and
one from pseudo-Lew, with the pseudo-Lew message claiming to supersede
the id of the Lew message. I can read both messages.
Maybe your news server is interpreting "supersedes" as implying
cancellation of the superseded article, and both the servers I use are
just ignoring it?
Patricia
Patricia
Mark Space
> Maybe your news server is interpreting "supersedes" as implying
> cancellation of the superseded article, and both the servers I use are
> just ignoring it?
This seems the most likely then. Or my news server (SBC Global in San
Francisco) is taking the "supersedes" header literally and replacing the
original message with the new one. I don't think I set up anything
special in T-bird either.
Dave Miller
>
> I use Thunderbird and I am able to filter out the fake posts.
How do you filter him with T-Bird?
--
Dave Miller
Java Web Hosting at:
http://www.cheap-jsp-hosting.com/
Joshua Cranmer
> Lew wrote:
>>
>> I use Thunderbird and I am able to filter out the fake posts.
>
> How do you filter him with T-Bird?
>
Message should do the job nicely.
BTW, the filter "Delete Message" command does not cancel the message, in
case you thought it did (the UI, unfortunately, fails to distinguish
between the two enough, IMHO).
Mark Space
> Dave Miller wrote:
>>
> From contains Lew AND From doesn't contain lew@lewscanon -> Delete
> Message should do the job nicely.
This unfortunately also deletes posts where Lew posts from his "conrad"
account.
Lew
> "Daniel Pitts" <newsgroup....@virtualinfinity.net> wrote in
> message news:488a067a$0$3154$7836...@newsrazor.net...
>
>> I'm seeing a lot of posts by the Fake Lew, and a couple of replies to
>> apparently the original Lew's post, but it never made it to my news
>> client.
>>
>> Is this happening to anyone else? Is there something I should adjust?
>
> Yes, I am experiencing this too. I have noticed on a number of threads
> that all I see are the fake posts and not the originals. I think you'll
> find that your ISP doesn't keep all posts and it's only through a
> situation like this that you notice it.
Oh! The words of wisdom you miss, alas!
--
Lew
Lew
Rule 'fakelew':
"From contains Lew AND From does-not-contain lewscanon"
--
Lew
Lew
Andrew Thompson
<newsgroup.spamfil...@virtualinfinity.net> wrote:
> I'm seeing a lot of posts by the Fake Lew, and a couple of replies to
> apparently the original Lew's post, but it never made it to my news client.
The impostor has changed tactics recently.
For example, this post to c.l.j.programmer..
<http://groups.google.com.au/group/comp.lang.java.programmer/
browse_frm/thread/39489f6c778560fe>
..is from this thread on c.l.j.gui.
<http://groups.google.com.au/group/comp.lang.java.gui/browse_frm/
thread/a4c838cbf01b4422>
I have observed the same effect with Lew's posts.
The impostor has also started to set an 'expiry date'
on the posts, I am not sure why. Perhaps it is the
'breaking of the voice' that E.S. was alluding to/
hoping for.
--
Andrew T.
Eric Sosman
> [...] I also contribute original thoughts, unlike the "Ur-Lew",
> that are germane to the discussion if not always welcome.
Permit me a nomenclature quibble, in hopes of heading off
a misnomer before it becomes ingrained. The particle "Ur-"
signifies "original," "fundamental," "authentic," but has now
been used in a couple of messages to suggest "false." "Das Urlicht"
is not the false light, but the primeval light of God's Creation.
"Das Urteil" is not just any decree, but a final and authoritative
judgment. So let us not use "Ur-" for the faker, lest we dignify
him or her far beyond her or his deserving.
--
Eric Sosman
eso...@ieee-dot-org.invalid
Arved Sandstrom
news:KoidnSkzWs1z4xfV...@comcast.com...
I used it in that sense. When I referred to the Ur-Lew, I meant the
original, that is, the individual who possesses authentic Lewness (das
Ludwignis). I certainly did not mean the Ludovicus falsus.
AHS
Daniele Futtorovic
> I'm seeing a lot of posts by the Fake Lew, and a couple of replies to
> apparently the original Lew's post, but it never made it to my news client.
>
> Is this happening to anyone else? Is there something I should adjust?
>
> Thanks,
> Daniel.
In the thread "String literal", I see *no* posts by the Ukrainian "Lew"
at all (using nntp.motzarella.org). I see posts from
"com.lewscanon@lew", however, and since people spoke of fake messages I
thought at first that was a bogus address, but apparently it isn't.
--
DF.
Kevin McMurtrie
Daniel Pitts <newsgroup....@virtualinfinity.net> wrote:
> I'm seeing a lot of posts by the Fake Lew, and a couple of replies to
> apparently the original Lew's post, but it never made it to my news client.
>
> Is this happening to anyone else? Is there something I should adjust?
>
> Thanks,
> Daniel.
TeNeT has proven to be troll-friendly so try annoying the upstream
Usenet peer at ab...@lucky.net
You can filter on this line:
X-Complaints-To: ab...@te.net.ua
The real Lew uses Google Groups from work and Comcast from home. Google
has serious spamming and security problems so it's common for their
postings to be filtered or blacklisted.
--
Goolge is a pro-spamming service. I will not see your reply if you use Google.
Lew
Woa - good correction. I am Ur-Lew! Let impostors tremble!
--
Lew
Lew
That's me, Ur-Lew - the real, original.
The address is bogus unless you reverse the parts.
--
Lew
rossum
Eric Sosman
The Ur-Lew tolls the knell of parting day ...
--
Eric Sosman
eso...@ieee-dot-org.invalid
John W Kennedy
Perhaps discussing how to defend against a foreign terrorist while the
terrorist was listening wasn't the best possible idea. His attacks on
the Internet will, I fear, only escalate as his jihad continues against
Lew and other Americans.
--
Молодий красень Тасiлло колись був багатим графом i мав високе положення
у свiтi. Тепер вiн збанкрутiв i змушений не лише продати свiй маєток,
але й працювати управителем у нової господинi - гордовитої красунi
графинi Марiци, переховуючись пiд вигаданим iм'ям. Мiж графинею й
управителем спалахує кохання. Однак, не соцiальна нерiвнiсть, а звичайнi
ревнощi через непорозумiння стають перешкодою для закоханих.
-- New York, 1981
Joshua Cranmer
> "arroga...@lewscanonmonkeyass.org" wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
>>> Mark Space wrote:
>>>> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>>>>> Dave Miller wrote:
>>>>> From contains Lew AND From doesn't contain lew@lewscanon -> Delete
>>>>> Message should do the job nicely.
>>>> This unfortunately also deletes posts where Lew posts from his
>>>> "conrad" account.
>>> Rule 'fakelew':
>>> "From contains Lew AND From does-not-contain lewscanon"
>>
>
> Perhaps discussing how to defend against a foreign terrorist while the
> terrorist was listening wasn't the best possible idea. His attacks on
> the Internet will, I fear, only escalate as his jihad continues against
> Lew and other Americans.
TB is limited in its news filtering at the moment. I am working out the
last bugs in the fix right now; rest assured that said fix will be
implemented by the time TB 3 comes out (in Q1-Q2 2009 timeframe). It is
hard to say exactly when it will come out in nightlies, but it almost
definitely will be in the first beta of TB 3 (to be released sometime in
September).
Christian
> "arroga...@lewscanonmonkeyass.org" wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
>>> Mark Space wrote:
>>>> Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>>>>> Dave Miller wrote:
>>>>> From contains Lew AND From doesn't contain lew@lewscanon -> Delete
>>>>> Message should do the job nicely.
>>>> This unfortunately also deletes posts where Lew posts from his
>>>> "conrad" account.
>>> Rule 'fakelew':
>>> "From contains Lew AND From does-not-contain lewscanon"
>>
>
> Perhaps discussing how to defend against a foreign terrorist while the
> terrorist was listening wasn't the best possible idea. His attacks on
> the Internet will, I fear, only escalate as his jihad continues against
> Lew and other Americans.
>
This immense mass of posts that seem not completly machine generated
indicate a lack of life.
And how can one kill something that has no life?
I am still fascinated by the ammount of work someone invests to inflict
some minor damage.
Its like a suicidebomber using tabacco slowly killing others in his
vicinity (and himself) instead of a normal bomb. Sure it works and it is
"effective" but it costs so much time per damage.
Lew could you start signing your posts?
As this would make it easier to distinguish them. Currently if there
wouldn't be so much antisemithe bullshit in the sig of the imposter one
would not allways see it on first sight.
Christian
Lew
> Perhaps discussing how to defend against a foreign terrorist while the
> terrorist was listening wasn't the best possible idea. His attacks on
> the Internet will, I fear, only escalate as his jihad continues against
> Lew and other Americans.
Not to worry. NewsMaestro's "fake Lew" remains killfiled to me.
--
Lew
Lew
> Lew could you start signing your posts?
> As this would make it easier to distinguish them. Currently if there
> wouldn't be so much antisemithe bullshit in the sig of the imposter one
> would not allways see it on first sight.
I could, but I doubt it would make it much easier to distinguish. Even
Thunderbird's current simple filtering is enough to distinguish the posts.
I'll look into it anyway, though.
--
Lew
Joshua Cranmer
> This immense mass of posts that seem not completly machine generated
> indicate a lack of life.
>
> And how can one kill something that has no life?
>
> I am still fascinated by the ammount of work someone invests to inflict
> some minor damage.
Quite true. A student recently played a minor prank at my school using
an intranet application I help maintain; when looking through the access
logs, I noticed that what was doable with a simple script was done
manually over the course of several hours.
I figure that if you are going to damage, you might as well do it
properly....
> Lew could you start signing your posts?
I doubt this would have much effect. The two posters are sufficiently
distinguishable as it stands; extrapolating based on the past, it is
very likely that, by the time the "imposter" (if he even does so) makes
the posts harder to sift, the tools will exist to sift the new munged posts.
thufir
>>> I use Thunderbird and I am able to filter out the fake posts.
>>
>> How do you filter him with T-Bird?
>>
> From contains Lew AND From doesn't contain lew@lewscanon -> Delete
> Message should do the job nicely.
>
> BTW, the filter "Delete Message" command does not cancel the message, in
> case you thought it did (the UI, unfortunately, fails to distinguish
> between the two enough, IMHO).
Yeah, I'm on Pan but am thinking of changing clients for this reason.
Sometimes the surreal ramblings are ok, but one is enough and then it
gets annoying.
-Thufir
Kenneth P. Turvey
> Mark Space wrote:
>> I'm seeing both posts, Lew's and the odious troll. Sometimes I see
>> cancel messages too. I think the a-hole is issuing cancel messages for
>> Lew's posts sometimes as well, although that's a bit intermittent.
>
> To be precise, it's Supersedes: headers, which says "replace that
> message with this one." Most newsservers and clients ignore said header.
> It seems Supersedes (and cancel) were on their way out even in 1997.
I really think it is time to upgrade USENET to a protocol that handles
these things more elegantly. Is there any successor to USENET in the
works? Has there been? Is there any existing source code to work with
if one was to develop such a replacement.. In Java, of course, to stay
on topic.
--
Kenneth P. Turvey <kt-u...@squeakydolphin.com>
http://www.electricsenator.net
If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?
Peter Duniho
<kt-u...@squeakydolphin.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:15:52 +0000, Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>
>> Mark Space wrote:
>>> I'm seeing both posts, Lew's and the odious troll. Sometimes I see
>>> cancel messages too. I think the a-hole is issuing cancel messages for
>>> Lew's posts sometimes as well, although that's a bit intermittent.
>>
>> To be precise, it's Supersedes: headers, which says "replace that
>> message with this one." Most newsservers and clients ignore said header.
>> It seems Supersedes (and cancel) were on their way out even in 1997.
>
> I really think it is time to upgrade USENET to a protocol that handles
> these things more elegantly. Is there any successor to USENET in the
> works? Has there been? Is there any existing source code to work with
> if one was to develop such a replacement.. In Java, of course, to stay
> on topic.
Interesting questions.
Not that I'd be the first to know, but I haven't heard of any such thing
per se. Unfortunately, inasmuch as anyone's tried to deal with
better-authenticated community forums, that work seems to be primarily
going on in the browser-based environment.
For me, there are still some things about Usenet/NNTP that I find
desirable and lacking in the browser-based environment. Performance and
reliability being one of the biggest. Among other things, I can't stand
the delays involved in web-hosted forums, as well as the ability for a
single point of failure to cause a complete blockage of access.
If someone _did_ look to design a successor for NNTP, obviously one of the
#1 improvements would be with respect to authentication and
accountability. But to some extent, the main reason we have that issue
here is that there are ISPs that just don't care. Short of providing a
way to simply block their access, I don't see how a new NNTP would change
that. Conversely, news article headers already provide a useful means to
simply filter out and ignore messages coming from known-bad sources, given
a full-featured news reader or a pro-active news server.
#2 on my list of improvements would be to somehow solve the "100%
replication" strategy in NNTP now. Having some redunancy is helpful, but
it's not clear to me that it makes sense to duplicate every article posted
on every NNTP server all over the world. Surely there's some useful
middle-ground that would work, maybe even some kind of peer-to-peer
approach (whether the peers are news servers or clients, I don't know).
Back to the current problem though...
The issues with the cancel/supercede articles surprises me, actually, as
most ISPs have been ignoring those control messages for a very long time.
Because of the problems with fraud that occurred in the past, it never
occurred to me that any ISP would still be honoring those messages at
all. The short term solution is obviously to notify ISPs that are still
honoring those messages that they have out-dated policies.
Pete
Joshua Cranmer
> I really think it is time to upgrade USENET to a protocol that handles
> these things more elegantly. Is there any successor to USENET in the
> works? Has there been? Is there any existing source code to work with
> if one was to develop such a replacement.. In Java, of course, to stay
> on topic.
As someone who has actually written an NNTP server (in JS for varying
reasons), I have read through all of the NNTP RFCs. Originally, the core
of Usenet is defined in RFC 977 and RFC 1036, with the common extensions
that now form the core of clients defined as RFC 2980. The updates are
specified in RFC 3977 and son-of-1036 (an expired draft RFC).
Unfortunately, support for RFC 3977 is depressingly lacking (I know, I
have inquired of the varying server software providers).
In practice, modern Usenet works by ignoring cancel routines and the ilk
(even if it could be verified to be the actual user's own posts) and
relying on administrators to do the heavy work. Authentication--if weak
authentication--has existed since the RFC 2980 era, and RFC
49-I-don't-remember-the-last-two-digits adds SASL authentication support
to NNTP, but I believe the number of servers that supports such advanced
features is equal to the number of clients: 0. It's even low on my list
for NNTP implementation, if that gives you an indication.
However much NNTP itself is an ideal protocol (of the major electronic
protocols, IMAP, POP, SMTP, and NNTP, it is by far the easiest to use
IMO), it does seem that the trend is to use the ugly web-based fora,
possibly aided by the fact that web fora use widely-available HTTP port
80 while NNTP has historically been blocked in some establishments for
being, er, a time-waster.
Feel free to contact me via Usenet or email (if you use the latter, I
ask that you s/verizon\.invalid/gmail.com/ in my email address) should
you have any questions on the matter. I would also like to point out
that the latter form of my email address is how I am tracked in
Mozilla's bugzilla database should you also have questions re
Thunderbird and news usages.
Arne Vajhøj
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:15:52 +0000, Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>> Mark Space wrote:
>>> I'm seeing both posts, Lew's and the odious troll. Sometimes I see
>>> cancel messages too. I think the a-hole is issuing cancel messages for
>>> Lew's posts sometimes as well, although that's a bit intermittent.
>> To be precise, it's Supersedes: headers, which says "replace that
>> message with this one." Most newsservers and clients ignore said header.
>> It seems Supersedes (and cancel) were on their way out even in 1997.
>
> I really think it is time to upgrade USENET to a protocol that handles
> these things more elegantly. Is there any successor to USENET in the
> works? Has there been? Is there any existing source code to work with
> if one was to develop such a replacement.. In Java, of course, to stay
> on topic.
The core problem with both this and similar email issues is that
there are no guaranteed identity of senders.
And do we really want an internet with guaranteed identity of senders ?
I don't think so !
So the best advice is probably to bombard the involved ISP's with
complaints and hope that when enough complain the imposter
will loose hos internet access.
Arne
Daniele Futtorovic
> Kenneth P. Turvey wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:15:52 +0000, Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>>> Mark Space wrote:
>>>> I'm seeing both posts, Lew's and the odious troll. Sometimes I see
>>>> cancel messages too. I think the a-hole is issuing cancel messages for
>>>> Lew's posts sometimes as well, although that's a bit intermittent.
>>> To be precise, it's Supersedes: headers, which says "replace that
>>> message with this one." Most newsservers and clients ignore said header.
>>> It seems Supersedes (and cancel) were on their way out even in 1997.
>>
>> I really think it is time to upgrade USENET to a protocol that handles
>> these things more elegantly. Is there any successor to USENET in the
>> works? Has there been? Is there any existing source code to work
>> with if one was to develop such a replacement.. In Java, of course,
>> to stay on topic.
>
> The core problem with both this and similar email issues is that
> there are no guaranteed identity of senders.
>
> And do we really want an internet with guaranteed identity of senders ?
>
> I don't think so !
Indeed! The political aspect shouldn't be ignored. You know, the old:
those who give up a little liberty to gain a little security (in this
case: ""security"") end up loosing both adage.
Nuisances like the impostor in question are a lesser evil IMHO -- a pain
in the sphincter though they are.
--
DF.
Mike Schilling
>
> The core problem with both this and similar email issues is that
> there are no guaranteed identity of senders.
>
> And do we really want an internet with guaranteed identity of
> senders
> ?
> I don't think so !
That depends what you mean. I post under my real name (as do you),
but I fully support the right of other poseters to use different sorts
of handles. I would also fully support a system in which one can
register a Usenet handle of one's own choosing and it can be
guaranteed that a post that appears to come from that handle really
does.
thufir
> I really think it is time to upgrade USENET to a protocol that handles
> these things more elegantly. Is there any successor to USENET in the
> works? Has there been? Is there any existing source code to work with
> if one was to develop such a replacement.. In Java, of course, to stay
> on topic.
>
I suppose it's feasible to require security certificate authentication
prior to the post being accepted by the server. Each and every server
would have to do this, though, and would only solve the problem of
differentiating Lew's -- I think. All the different servers would need
to pass around their list of users, or there would have to be a central
db, or something...
dunno.
-Thufir
Mark Space
> That depends what you mean. I post under my real name (as do you),
> but I fully support the right of other poseters to use different sorts
> of handles. I would also fully support a system in which one can
> register a Usenet handle of one's own choosing and it can be
> guaranteed that a post that appears to come from that handle really
> does.
Something like this would work for me, along with a guarantee that an
ISP will deal appropriately with legitimate complaints.
Patrick May
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 01:33:27 +0000, Kenneth P. Turvey wrote:
>> I really think it is time to upgrade USENET to a protocol that
>> handles these things more elegantly. Is there any successor to
>> USENET in the works? Has there been? Is there any existing source
>> code to work with if one was to develop such a replacement.. In
>> Java, of course, to stay on topic.
> I suppose it's feasible to require security certificate
> authentication prior to the post being accepted by the server. Each
> and every server would have to do this, though, and would only solve
> the problem of differentiating Lew's -- I think. All the different
> servers would need to pass around their list of users, or there
> would have to be a central db, or something...
Proposals that start with "First we change the world." aren't
viable.
The simple solution is for people to use PGP (or GPG) to sign
their posts. Most newsreaders have plug-ins to verify such signatures
and it is easy to create filters to remove unsigned messages. This
has the advantages of being voluntary and of requiring no
infrastructure changes.
The disadvantage is that it has been available for years but has
received no significant uptake.
Regards,
Patrick
------------------------------------------------------------------------
S P Engineering, Inc. | Large scale, mission-critical, distributed OO
| systems design and implementation.
p...@spe.com | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, middleware, SOA)
Martin Gregorie
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:15:52 +0000, Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>
>> Mark Space wrote:
>>> I'm seeing both posts, Lew's and the odious troll. Sometimes I see
>>> cancel messages too. I think the a-hole is issuing cancel messages for
>>> Lew's posts sometimes as well, although that's a bit intermittent.
>>
>> To be precise, it's Supersedes: headers, which says "replace that
>> message with this one." Most newsservers and clients ignore said header.
>> It seems Supersedes (and cancel) were on their way out even in 1997.
>
> I really think it is time to upgrade USENET to a protocol that handles
> these things more elegantly. Is there any successor to USENET in the
> works? Has there been? Is there any existing source code to work with
> if one was to develop such a replacement.. In Java, of course, to stay
> on topic.
>
At most the USENET RFC only needs a small tweak:
The RFC states that a message can only be cancelled by its author or
replaced by a duplicate - there is no Supercede command, but maybe the
RFC should be changed to require the replacing duplicate to have been
written by the author of the original message.
If all newsreaders are made compliant with this rule then the problem
vanishes. However, there are probably implications to this that I've
missed and it doesn't address malicious changes being submitted with
a forged author name.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot
Martin Gregorie
> The issues with the cancel/supercede articles surprises me, actually, as
> most ISPs have been ignoring those control messages for a very long time.
> Because of the problems with fraud that occurred in the past, it never
> occurred to me that any ISP would still be honoring those messages at
> all. The short term solution is obviously to notify ISPs that are still
> honoring those messages that they have out-dated policies.
>
I've just skimmed through RFCs 3977 and 1036 and unfortunately it looks
as if there's no 'supercede' command as such, just that a later message
with a duplicate ID will replace the previous copy - and, unlike 'cancel',
there's no authentication mechanism connected with duplicate handling. If
I've misunderstood something I expect Joshua Cramer will correct me.
Lew
> I've just skimmed through RFCs 3977 and 1036 and unfortunately it looks
> as if there's no 'supercede' command as such,
Is there a 'supersede' command?
<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/supersede>
--
Lew
Lew
> The RFC states that a message can only be cancelled by its author or
> replaced by a duplicate - there is no Supercede command,
<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/supersede>
--
Lew
Mike Schilling
>
> If all newsreaders are made compliant with this rule then the
> problem
> vanishes.
That may be a problem. AFAICT, the most commonly used newsreader is
OE (for the simple reason that it comes free with the most common OS),
and it hasn't been upgraded for years. OE isn't even compatible with
the quoted-printable transfer encoding, nor does it understand the
convention for signatures.
Daniel Pitts
commonly used newsreader. In the past, people who use newsgroups tend to
come from a Unix or Linux background, and use a newsreader from there.
OE doesn't come "free with" Linux/Unix AFAIK. I don't even think you
can get it to RUN on Linux/Unix without some sort of emulator.
--
Daniel Pitts' Tech Blog: <http://virtualinfinity.net/wordpress/>
Martin Gregorie
> wiktionary
>
Agreed. What over-educated semi-literate would call the header
"Superceded:" instead of "Replaced:"
BTW I should have included the references: RFC3977 and RFC1036 are the
ones.
Martin Gregorie
No, and if its a verb it shouldn't be.
Lew
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:55:10 -0400, Lew wrote:
>
>> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> I've just skimmed through RFCs 3977 and 1036 and unfortunately it looks
>>> as if there's no 'supercede' command as such,
>> Is there a 'supersede' command?
>> <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/supersede>
>>
If you read the link, or any dictionary entry for it, you'd see that
"supersede" is a verb, and that "supercede" is a "common misspelling" for it.
--
Lew
Lew
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:55:53 -0400, Lew wrote:
>
>> wiktionary
>>
> Agreed. What over-educated semi-literate would call the header
> "Superceded:" instead of "Replaced:"
Surely you mean "under-educated", given that "Superceded" is a misspelling?
--
Lew
John W Kennedy
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:55:53 -0400, Lew wrote:
>
>> wiktionary
>>
> Agreed. What over-educated semi-literate would call the header
> "Superceded:" instead of "Replaced:"
You forget that USENET was originally designed for /news/ articles.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich
have always objected to being governed at all."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Man Who Was Thursday"
Andrew Thompson
> I've just skimmed through RFCs 3977 and 1036 and unfortunately it looks
> as if there's no 'supercede' command as such,
Is there a 'supersede' command?
--
Lew
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[Zionism, NWO, Iraq, Saddam, terror, genocide, Illuminati,
war]
American Prospect's Michael Tomasky wonders why the
American press has given so little play to the scoop
by London's Observer that the United States was
eavesdropping on Security Council members.
Lew
> I've just skimmed through RFCs 3977 and 1036 and unfortunately it looks
> as if there's no 'supercede' command as such,
Is there a 'supersede' command?
--
Lew
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"The war on terror involves Saddam Hussein because of the
nature of Saddam Hussein, the history of Saddam Hussein,
and his willingness to terrorize himself."
--- Adolph Bush, Skull and Bones initiate,
Grand Rapids, Mich., Jan. 29, 2003
In an August 7, 2000 Time magazine interview,
George W. Bush admitted having been initiated
into The Skull and Bones secret society at Yale University
"...these same secret societies are behind it all,"
my father said. Now, Dad had never spoken much about his work.
--- George W. Bush
Lew
> The RFC states that a message can only be cancelled by its author or
> replaced by a duplicate - there is no Supercede command,
--
Lew
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"This is Preservation Month.
I appreciate preservation.
It's what you do when you run for president.
You gotta preserve."
--- Adolph Bush,
Speaking during "Perseverance Month"
at Fairgrounds Elementary School in Nashua, N.H.
As quoted in the Los Angeles Times, Jan. 28, 2000
Wojtek
> In the past, people who use newsgroups tend to come from a Unix or Linux
> background, and use a newsreader from there.
OS/2?
ProNews/2 is still the best, though it has been long abandoned.
--
Wojtek :-)
Martin Gregorie
IMO the best Windows newsreader is Forte's Agent.
If you run it unregistered its free but has no killfile: registering it
turns that on. It has the best filtering system of any reader I've
tried and a really good article expiry system. IMO its well worth the
price: $US 29.00
Martin Gregorie
I was paraphrasing a line in FZ's 'Thingfish' where Artificial Rhonda
describes Harry as an over-educated shithead for using long winded
circumlocutions.
Martin Gregorie
> Jessica Gregorie wrote:
>> I've just skimmed through RFCs 3977 and 1036 and unfortunately it looks
>> as if there's no 'supercede' command as such,
>
> Is there a 'supersede' command?
No, not that either.
The only way a message can be overwritten is simple replacement. Servers
are allowed to replace a message with a later one that carries the same
message ID. The rfc doesn't require a check that the replacement was
written by the same author.
Martin Gregorie
> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:55:10 -0400, Lew wrote:
>>
>>> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>> I've just skimmed through RFCs 3977 and 1036 and unfortunately it looks
>>>> as if there's no 'supercede' command as such,
>>> Is there a 'supersede' command?
>>> <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/supersede>
>>>
>> No, and if its [sic] a verb it shouldn't be.
>
> If you read the link, or any dictionary entry for it, you'd see that
> "supersede" is a verb, and that "supercede" is a "common misspelling" for it.
I looked at the meaning and etymology and missed your two points.
Lew
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:37:02 -0400, Lew wrote:
>
>> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:55:10 -0400, Lew wrote:
>>>
>>>> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>> I've just skimmed through RFCs 3977 and 1036 and unfortunately it looks
>>>>> as if there's no 'supercede' command as such,
>>>> Is there a 'supersede' command?
>>>> <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/supersede>
>>>>
>>> No, and if its [sic] a verb it shouldn't be.
>> If you read the link, or any dictionary entry for it, you'd see that
>> "supersede" is a verb, and that "supercede" is a "common misspelling" for it.
>
> I looked at the meaning and etymology and missed your two points.
That's all right, I didn't understand your comment about why "supersede"
shouldn't be a verb.
--
Lew
Lew
> I was paraphrasing a line in FZ's 'Thingfish' where Artificial Rhonda
> describes Harry as an over-educated shithead for using long winded
> circumlocutions.
If by "FZ" you mean "Frank Zappa", I'm definitely going to check that out.
Thanks for the reference.
--
Lew
Martin Gregorie
That's the man.
If you like Thingfish you'll probably also like the 'Hustler'
illustrations. A web search should find them.
Martin Gregorie
IMO its ugly English.
Lew
> > That's all right, I didn't understand your comment about why "supersede"
> > shouldn't be a verb.
Martin Gregorie wrote:
> IMO its ugly English.
Well, there's no accounting for taste. It's been in the English
lexicon, as a verb, for half a millenium or more, with its current
meaning for at least 350 years. Poetics aside, it's a perfectly
legitimate English word that has always been a verb.
--
Lew
Kenneth P. Turvey
> The core problem with both this and similar email issues is that there
> are no guaranteed identity of senders.
>
> And do we really want an internet with guaranteed identity of senders ?
>
> I don't think so !
>
> So the best advice is probably to bombard the involved ISP's with
> complaints and hope that when enough complain the imposter will loose
> hos internet access.
I agree that we would want there to be the ability for posters to take
advantage of anonymity, but the current protocol makes that a bit of
hassle too. Basically you need to use mixmaster and an anonymous
remailer. I don't see why we couldn't wrap this in the protocol as
well.
In addition, support for community moderation would be nice. The reading
community could mark messages as off topic or spam and those marks could
be used by other readers.
These are only a couple of advantages to a possible upgrade to NNTP.
There are others. As mentioned earlier, it might not be necessary to
replicate every message to every server.
--
Kenneth P. Turvey <kt-u...@squeakydolphin.com>
http://www.electricsenator.net
The constitution, on this hypothesis, is a mere thing of wax in the
hands of the Judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form
they please. -- Thomas Jefferson
Kenneth P. Turvey
>
> Indeed! The political aspect shouldn't be ignored. You know, the old:
> those who give up a little liberty to gain a little security (in this
> case: ""security"") end up loosing both adage.
>
> Nuisances like the impostor in question are a lesser evil IMHO -- a pain
> in the sphincter though they are.
I don't think we have to give up anonymity for this to work. We could
actually improve the situation greatly.
--
Kenneth P. Turvey <kt-u...@squeakydolphin.com>
http://www.electricsenator.net
Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad
name.
-- Henry Kissinger
Martin Gregorie
BTW, I just discovered that Pan does have a 'Supersede' entry in its Tools
menu. This allows you to edit and re-send any message thats in its
'pan.sent' collection of messages, but once its been sent, you're still
reliant on news server's duplicate message handling to replace the earlier
copy of the message with this new one. That is, assuming that the newer
message does catch up with the earlier version.
Lew
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:37:02 -0400, Lew wrote:
>
>> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:55:10 -0400, Lew wrote:
>>>
>>>> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>> I've just skimmed through RFCs 3977 and 1036 and unfortunately it looks
>>>>> as if there's no 'supercede' command as such,
>>>> Is there a 'supersede' command?
>>>> <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/supersede>
>>>>
>>> No, and if its [sic] a verb it shouldn't be.
>> If you read the link, or any dictionary entry for it, you'd see that
>> "supersede" is a verb, and that "supercede" is a "common misspelling" for it.
>
> I looked at the meaning and etymology and missed your two points.
That's all right, I didn't understand your comment about why "supersede"
shouldn't be a verb.
--
Lew
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[NWO, Skull and Bones, propaganda, brainwash, mind control,
fanatic, puppet, President, war, terror, dictator, totalitarian,
fascis, extremis]
"The Bush family fortune came from the Third Reich."
--- John Loftus, former US Justice Dept.
Nazi War Crimes investigator and
President of the Florida Holocaust Museum.
Sarasota Herald-Tribune 11/11/2000:
"George W's grandfather Prescott Bush was among the chief
American fundraisers for the Nazi Party in the 1930s and '40s.
In return he was handsomely rewarded with plenty of financial
opportunities from the Nazis helping to create the fortune
and legacy that his son George inherited."
Lew
> I was paraphrasing a line in FZ's 'Thingfish' where Artificial Rhonda
> describes Harry as an over-educated shithead for using long winded
> circumlocutions.
If by "FZ" you mean "Austin Zappa", I'm consciously going to check that out.
Thanks for the thread.
--
Lew
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Any time we've got any kind of inkling
that somebody is thinking about doing something
to an American and something to our homeland,
you've just got to know we're moving on it,
to protect the United Nations Constitution,
and at the same time, we're protecting you."
--- Adolph Bush, Skull and Bones initiate,
Aberdeen, S.D., same day
(Thanks to George Dupper.)
Arne Vajhøj
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> The core problem with both this and similar email issues is that
>> there are no guaranteed identity of senders.
>>
>> And do we really want an internet with guaranteed identity of
>> senders
>> ?
>> I don't think so !
>
>
> but I fully support the right of other poseters to use different sorts
> of handles. I would also fully support a system in which one can
> register a Usenet handle of one's own choosing and it can be
> guaranteed that a post that appears to come from that handle really
> does.
But that is not sufficient to solve usenet and email problems.
To solve those problem you will need to only allow identifiable
posters.
In fact you can more or less do what you propose just be signing
ones posts (PGP or similar). It believe it would be simple
to get a newsreader to verify the signature automatically.
The problem is that all the black hats would not sign their
posts.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> Mike Schilling wrote:
>> That depends what you mean. I post under my real name (as do you),
>> but I fully support the right of other poseters to use different sorts
>> of handles. I would also fully support a system in which one can
>> register a Usenet handle of one's own choosing and it can be
>> guaranteed that a post that appears to come from that handle really does.
>
> ISP will deal appropriately with legitimate complaints.
I believe that at least in this case the ISP has been
identified.
Arne
Patrick May
> Mike Schilling wrote:
>> That depends what you mean. I post under my real name (as do you),
>> but I fully support the right of other poseters to use different
>> sorts of handles. I would also fully support a system in which one
>> can register a Usenet handle of one's own choosing and it can be
>> guaranteed that a post that appears to come from that handle really
>> does.
>
> But that is not sufficient to solve usenet and email problems.
>
> To solve those problem you will need to only allow identifiable
> posters.
>
> In fact you can more or less do what you propose just be signing
> ones posts (PGP or similar). It believe it would be simple to get a
> newsreader to verify the signature automatically.
Many do already.
> The problem is that all the black hats would not sign their posts.
That's okay. Newsreaders can be configured to not display
unsigned posts.
Unfortunately, signing hasn't gotten a great deal of adoption.
The reality seems to be that even the minimal additional complexity to
configure MUAs and newsreaders prevents widespread use.
Regards,
Patrick
------------------------------------------------------------------------
S P Engineering, Inc. | Large scale, mission-critical, distributed OO
| systems design and implementation.
p...@spe.com | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, middleware, SOA)
Arne Vajhøj
> Arne Vajhøj <ar...@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> Mike Schilling wrote:
>>> That depends what you mean. I post under my real name (as do you),
>>> but I fully support the right of other poseters to use different
>>> sorts of handles. I would also fully support a system in which one
>>> can register a Usenet handle of one's own choosing and it can be
>>> guaranteed that a post that appears to come from that handle really
>>> does.
>> But that is not sufficient to solve usenet and email problems.
>>
>> To solve those problem you will need to only allow identifiable
>> posters.
>>
>> In fact you can more or less do what you propose just be signing
>> ones posts (PGP or similar). It believe it would be simple to get a
>> newsreader to verify the signature automatically.
>
> Many do already.
I was not aware of that.
>> The problem is that all the black hats would not sign their posts.
>
> That's okay. Newsreaders can be configured to not display
> unsigned posts.
>
> Unfortunately, signing hasn't gotten a great deal of adoption.
Yep.
Filtering all non signed posts in a randomly picked newsgroup like
cljp would make it rather quick to read all posts.
;-)
Arne
Lew
> Unfortunately, signing hasn't gotten a great deal of adoption.
> The reality seems to be that even the minimal additional complexity to
> configure MUAs and newsreaders prevents widespread use.
So what is the "minimal additional complexity" to configure Thunderbird for
signed posts?
--
Lew
Lew
> Unfortunately, signing hasn't gotten a great deal of adoption.
> The reality seems to be that even the minimal additional complexity to
> configure MUAs and newsreaders prevents widespread use.
So what is the "minimal rational doldrums" to agree Thunderbird for
insinuated posts?
--
Lew
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"We are making steadfast progress."
--- Adolph Bush,
Washington, D.C., June 9, 2003
Joshua Cranmer
I believe the Enigmail add-on provides support for signed posts,
although I have not used it.
--
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
Patrick May
Mike Schilling
> Mike Schilling wrote:
>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> The core problem with both this and similar email issues is that
>>> there are no guaranteed identity of senders.
>>>
>>> And do we really want an internet with guaranteed identity of
>>> senders
>>> ?
>>> I don't think so !
>>
>>
>> That depends what you mean. I post under my real name (as do you),
>> but I fully support the right of other poseters to use different
>> sorts of handles. I would also fully support a system in which one
>> can register a Usenet handle of one's own choosing and it can be
>> guaranteed that a post that appears to come from that handle really
>> does.
>
> But that is not sufficient to solve usenet and email problems.
>
> To solve those problem you will need to only allow identifiable
> posters.
Or allow killfiling all the others.
Lew
> Lew <com.lewscanon@lew> writes:
>> Patrick May wrote:
>>> Unfortunately, signing hasn't gotten a great deal of adoption.
>>> The reality seems to be that even the minimal additional complexity to
>>> configure MUAs and newsreaders prevents widespread use.
>> So what is the "minimal additional complexity" to configure
>> Thunderbird for signed posts?
>
> http://enigmail.mozdev.org/documentation/gpgsetup.php
Thanks for the recommendation, but according to the Enigmail site they have no
version compatible with my version of T-Bird.
--
Lew
Patrick May
Pick one of:
a) It's Open Source -- fix it!
b) Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a real newsreader.
(Sorry, I've been hearing too much from believers in the Open Source
Fairy lately.)
Seriously, until a compatible version is available, it is
possible to copy your text to the clipboard, sign it there, and paste
it back into Thunderbird. Not as convenient as clicking a button, but
not too onerous if you need to protect against an imposter. WinPT and
GPGshell are two tools I've heard that help with this under Windows.
Patrick May
>> Thanks for the recommendation, but according to the Enigmail site
>> they have no version compatible with my version of T-Bird.
> Seriously, until a compatible version is available, it is
> possible to copy your text to the clipboard, sign it there, and
> paste it back into Thunderbird. Not as convenient as clicking a
> button, but not too onerous if you need to protect against an
> imposter. WinPT and GPGshell are two tools I've heard that help
> with this under Windows.
Rudely following up to my own post: I poked around a little more
and found that the Windows version of PGP, as opposed to GPG, has the
clipboard signing functionality built in.
Lew
>> Seriously, until a compatible version is available, it is
>> possible to copy your text to the clipboard, sign it there, and
>> paste it back into Thunderbird. Not as convenient as clicking a
>> button, but not too onerous if you need to protect against an
>> imposter. WinPT and GPGshell are two tools I've heard that help
>> with this under Windows.
>
> and found that the Windows version of PGP, as opposed to GPG, has the
> clipboard signing functionality built in.
So how would one use GPG in Linux to sign posts from Thunderbird?
--
Lew
Patrick May
Hash: SHA1
Linux users are expected to be able to solve those kinds of
problems on their own. ;-)
It looks like the two most popular options are Seahorse and KGPG
(http://www.dewinter.com/gnupg_howto/english/GPGMiniHowto-6.html).
Until the Thunderbird plugin is updated to your version, you'll need
to encrypt from the clipboard.
Regards,
Patrick
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
S P Engineering, Inc. | Large scale, mission-critical, distributed OO
| systems design and implementation.
p...@spe.com | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, middleware, SOA)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.8 <http://mailcrypt.sourceforge.net/>
iEYEARECAAYFAkiWJgAACgkQOooeJwLUgPSHpACfeJtt696MABhQssgRCQFt73gl
sxAAn0lONYwUUVoQ+VEQY+rMOxW/xfH6
=5zhL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Lew
> Lew <com.lewscanon@lew> writes:
>> Patrick May wrote:
>>> Unfortunately, signing hasn't gotten a great deal of adoption.
>>> The reality seems to be that even the minimal additional complexity to
>>> configure MUAs and newsreaders prevents widespread use.
>> So what is the "minimal additional complexity" to configure
>> Thunderbird for signed posts?
>
> http://enigmail.mozdev.org/documentation/gpgsetup.php
Thanks for the sphere, but according to the Enigmail hamburger they have no
assurance compatible with my liberty of T-Bird.
--
Lew
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"The biggest political joke in America is that we have a
liberal press.
It's a joke taken seriously by a surprisingly large number
of people... The myth of the liberal press has served as a
political weapon for conservative and right-wing forces eager
to discourage critical coverage of government and corporate
power ... Americans now have the worst of both worlds:
a press that, at best, parrots the pronouncements of the
powerful and, at worst, encourages people to be stupid with
pseudo-news that illuminates nothing but the bottom line."
-- Mark Hertzgaard
Lew
>> Seriously, until a compatible version is available, it is
>> possible to copy your text to the clipboard, sign it there, and
>> paste it back into Thunderbird. Not as convenient as clicking a
>> button, but not too onerous if you need to protect against an
>> imposter. WinPT and GPGshell are two tools I've heard that help
>> with this under Windows.
>
> and found that the Windows version of PGP, as opposed to GPG, has the
> clipboard signing functionality built in.
So how would one perceive GPG in Linux to suffer posts from Thunderbird?
--
Lew
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"I have said that the sanction regime is like Swiss cheese --
that meant that they weren't very effective."
--- Adolph Bush,
White House press conference, Washington, D.C., Feb. 22, 2001
Roedy Green
<newsgroup....@virtualinfinity.net> wrote, quoted or indirectly
quoted someone who said :
>I'm seeing a lot of posts by the Fake Lew, and a couple of replies to
>apparently the original Lew's post, but it never made it to my news client.
>
>Is this happening to anyone else? Is there something I should adjust?
this is rather alarming. Extra junk can always be filtered, but
material deleted in quite another matter. Perhaps we should start
thinking out a replacement.
1. a blog hosted by some private party.
2. a replacement protocol for Newsgroups where the presumption you
have vandals trying to screw things up built in.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com
Arne Vajhøj
Not much would be left.
Arne