change your password day
Roedy Green
twice a year. They even have a "change your password day", I think in
early June. Does anyone know exactly when it is, how you compute when
it is, and when it was first "celebrated"?
Oddly I could not discover this with 30 minutes of Googling and
sending an email to the government department.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
"The telephone is the greatest single enemy of scholarship; for what our intellectual forebears used to inscribe in ink now goes once over a wire into permanent oblivion."
~ Dr. Stephen Jay Gould (born: 1941-09-10 died: 2002-05-02 at age: 60)
Arne Vajhøj
> The Australian government recommends changing your passwords at least
> twice a year. They even have a "change your password day", I think in
> early June. Does anyone know exactly when it is, how you compute when
> it is, and when it was first "celebrated"?
>
> Oddly I could not discover this with 30 minutes of Googling and
> sending an email to the government department.
And this is relevant for Java because ??
Arne
PS: http://www.minister.dbcde.gov.au/media/speeches/2009/020
Mike Schilling
> The Australian government recommends changing your passwords at least
> twice a year. They even have a "change your password day", I think in
> early June. Does anyone know exactly when it is, how you compute when
> it is, and when it was first "celebrated"?
There's a website that describes all this, but I can't seem to log into it.
Roedy Green
<mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :
>
>There's a website that describes all this, but I can't seem to log into it.
I found that. I wrote to them. Seems for a government website to
require a secret password to get public info.
Roedy Green
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>And this is relevant for Java because ??
Because passwords are crucial to the management of Java-based
websites. They are part of the skillset required of all Java
programmers.
They are not off-topic is the same sense cheap blue jeans, knock off
watches or sex toys are.
Peter Duniho
<see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:40:32 -0400, Arne Vajhøj <ar...@vajhoej.dk>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>> And this is relevant for Java because ??
>
> Because passwords are crucial to the management of Java-based
> websites. They are part of the skillset required of all Java
> programmers.
The same thing could be said for paying your bills on time. That doesn't
make it relevant for the Java programming newsgroup.
> They are not off-topic is the same sense cheap blue jeans, knock off
> watches or sex toys are.
Inasmuch as cheap blue jeans, knock off watches, sex toys, and passwords
all have nothing to do with writing Java code, I'd say passwords are
indeed off-topic in the same sense those other things are. (In fact, in
some respect those other things are not nearly as bad, because no one ever
replies to those posts and they are easily controlled by filters).
Here's a hint: if you on a regular basis find yourself having to defend
posts described by others as "off-topic" (and you do), you really should
consider that your idea of "on-topic" really isn't the same as the rest of
the community's, and that you should try harder to keep your off-topic
impulses under control.
Pete
Roedy Green
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>And this is relevant for Java because ??
If you interpreted the topic guidelines rigidly, you could only
discuss the Java language and the standard class libraries. 3rd party
libraries, optional libraries, algorithms, JSP... would all be off
topic. This would be pretty dull and repetitive.
Someone could not ask about *.tld files for tags for example because
they are XML, not Java.
In my view, newsgroups represent a community that have a common pool
of knowledge. It makes sense to ask questions from that common pool.
That view admits a broader permissible range of topics.
Once a conversation gets going, drift is inevitable. That's where you
are most likely to learn something new.
To avoid wasting others's time, I think it important to reveal the
topic clearly in the title line. Then people can easily avoid the
topic if it is not of interest. Quite often I bypass posts ON topic.
The sort of title that deserves mild censure is "I need help" or
"Program not working". Usually this signifies a clueless newbie who
has no idea what his problem is.
I get more steamed than most by ads for completely unrelated good
posted. Some people seem even more annoyed by mildly off topic posts
than by these pests.
There have been days go by without a new topic introduced. Under these
low traffic conditions, I don't think it necessary to be rigid. I
notice the more specific groups have withered away, and people are
asking their JDBC questions for example in comp.lang.java.programmer.
If the traffic increases, then it would be appropriate to push that
stuff back into its own newsgroup and tighten up topic specificity.
I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
It would not make sense to join some other newsgroup where they are
unknown and ignorable just to ask one question, when they strongly
suspect someone in their home territory knows the answer. If they
have never posted before, and they ask an off-topic question, best to
send them to a different group where they can become established and
ask similar questions.
Roedy Green
<NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :
>
>Here's a hint: if you on a regular basis find yourself having to defend
>posts described by others as "off-topic" (and you do), you really should
>consider that your idea of "on-topic" really isn't the same as the rest of
>the community's, and that you should try harder to keep your off-topic
>impulses under control.
You could either plonk me or delete those threads. You don't. Ask
yourself why.
Peter Duniho
<see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> You could either plonk me or delete those threads. You don't. Ask
> yourself why.
I already explained that: killfiling you doesn't get rid of the threads,
because unlike the regular spam, people still reply to your posts.
I'd rather see you just stop starting all these off-topic threads. Simply
eliminating your own posts doesn't really do the job.
Sabine Dinis Blochberger
> The Australian government recommends changing your passwords at least
> twice a year. They even have a "change your password day", I think in
> early June. Does anyone know exactly when it is, how you compute when
> it is, and when it was first "celebrated"?
>
> Oddly I could not discover this with 30 minutes of Googling and
> sending an email to the government department.
>
On that note, an article I find interesting:
<http://www.baekdal.com/articles/Usability/password-security-usability>
Too bad alot of places don't allow spaces.
--
Op3racional - www.op3racional.eu
---------------------
If you're reading this, you're on Usenet
<http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/unice.htm>
Roedy Green
someone who said :
>
>The same thing could be said for paying your bills on time. That doesn't
>make it relevant for the Java programming newsgroup.
I get the impression your motive in debate is primarily putting others
down. The topic is almost irrelevant.
Roedy Green
>> yourself why.
>
>I already explained that: killfiling you doesn't get rid of the threads,
>because unlike the regular spam, people still reply to your posts.
does not your newsreader let you mark a thread as "ignore"?
Martin Gregorie
> On that note, an article I find interesting:
> <http://www.baekdal.com/articles/Usability/password-security-usability>
>
> Too bad alot of places don't allow spaces.
>
Good article. Thanks for posting the link.
When it comes to stopping automated cracks, I always liked a trick that
DEC's VMS used: after three consecutive failed login attempts the login
program stopped trying to apply the username/password combo but went on
prompting - this way the would be cracker never knew he was getting
nowhere and, because this was in the dial-up era, ended up with a big
phone bill as well. The account remained locked out until the sysadmin
reset it.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
Dave Searles
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:04:29 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> <NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>
>> The same thing could be said for paying your bills on time. That doesn't
>> make it relevant for the Java programming newsgroup.
>
> I get the impression your motive in debate is primarily putting others
> down. The topic is almost irrelevant.
I concur.
Wojtek
> In my view, newsgroups represent a community that have a common pool
> of knowledge. It makes sense to ask questions from that common pool.
> That view admits a broader permissible range of topics.
Except that this is not a pub. It is more like a "Birds of a Feather"
discussion.
In a pub the topics can be far ranging. In BoF the topics are held to
the BoF purpose.
Besides, you have a ready made, high traffic (I think) site for things
like this, where YOU have the option of naming the topic groups.
Set up a forum, start these types of topics, and enjoy.
--
Wojtek :-)
Peter Duniho
<see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 00:39:14 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> <NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>
>>> yourself why.
>>
>> I already explained that: killfiling you doesn't get rid of the threads,
>> because unlike the regular spam, people still reply to your posts.
>
> does not your newsreader let you mark a thread as "ignore"?
Only "sort of" (I'm using the most effective newsreader on the Mac I've
been able to find, but it's topic filtering feature is awkward to use).
But it really doesn't matter. The option to filter out off-topic threads
is not in any way a defense of those threads.
Peter Duniho
<see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:04:29 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> <NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>
>>
>> The same thing could be said for paying your bills on time. That
>> doesn't
>> make it relevant for the Java programming newsgroup.
>
> I get the impression your motive in debate is primarily putting others
> down. The topic is almost irrelevant.
I can see how, if you happen to be a person who feels "put down" too
frequently, especially if you're unable to distinguish between a personal
attack and a matter-of-fact discussion, you might see it that way.
Suffice to say, I have far more opportunities to "put others down" than I
avail myself of, and most of the debates I engage in don't ever involve a
person feeling "put down" (the other party is able to understand that a
debate on points of facts, such as this one, has no bearing on personal
worth). Your impression is completely unfounded.
Pete
Arne Vajhøj
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:40:32 -0400, Arne Vajh�j <ar...@vajhoej.dk>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>> And this is relevant for Java because ??
>
> Because passwords are crucial to the management of Java-based
> websites.
Check the name of the group.
It says PROGRAMMING.
Best practices for server admins belong in another group.
Most likely not in a Java group at all, since the problem
is not specific for Java at all.
> They are part of the skillset required of all Java
> programmers.
So is finding the power-on key on the PC and using a fork
to put food in the mouth.
None of the 3 are on topic.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:40:32 -0400, Arne Vajh�j <ar...@vajhoej.dk>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>> And this is relevant for Java because ??
>
> If you interpreted the topic guidelines rigidly, you could only
> discuss the Java language and the standard class libraries. 3rd party
> libraries, optional libraries, algorithms, JSP... would all be off
> topic. This would be pretty dull and repetitive.
>
> Someone could not ask about *.tld files for tags for example because
> they are XML, not Java.
This is comp.lang.java.programmer not comp.lang.c - if the question
is about Java programming it is considered on topic - if it involves
Java programming, then most likely none will complain.
But password policies are way off topic.
> In my view, newsgroups represent a community that have a common pool
> of knowledge. It makes sense to ask questions from that common pool.
> That view admits a broader permissible range of topics.
According to your logic then we should only have one big group
for all usenet.
We do not. For good reasons. People follow groups because they
are interested in a specific topic.
People read cljp because they are interested in Java programming.
If they were interested in server administration, then they would
read another group.
> To avoid wasting others's time, I think it important to reveal the
> topic clearly in the title line. Then people can easily avoid the
> topic if it is not of interest.
Topics should be descriptive.
But that does not make off topics OK.
> I get more steamed than most by ads for completely unrelated good
> posted. Some people seem even more annoyed by mildly off topic posts
> than by these pests.
There is no point in replying to regular spam, because the posters
does not read it.
You obviously read replies.
> There have been days go by without a new topic introduced. Under these
> low traffic conditions, I don't think it necessary to be rigid.
The traffic in cljp is relative high - around 2000-4000 posts
per months.
But even if it had been 2-4 posts per months, then server admin
posts would still be off topic and should not be posted here.
> I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
You could just as well argue that people that post a lot should
know what is on and off topic a lot better.
:-)
Anyway I strongly disagree with the elitarian view that there
are A and B users and that the rules only applies to B users.
> It would not make sense to join some other newsgroup where they are
> unknown and ignorable just to ask one question, when they strongly
> suspect someone in their home territory knows the answer.
Given the years of experience several people in cljp has, then
it is most likely that someone will know the answer to most
IT questions.
But it is highly disrespectful to post the questions here anyway.
They read here to read about Java. If they were interested in
in seeing questions about server admin, then they would also
be capable of reading a relevant group.
> If they
> have never posted before, and they ask an off-topic question, best to
> send them to a different group where they can become established and
> ask similar questions.
Same for those that have made 10000 posts.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:04:29 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> <NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>> Here's a hint: if you on a regular basis find yourself having to defend
>> posts described by others as "off-topic" (and you do), you really should
>> consider that your idea of "on-topic" really isn't the same as the rest of
>> the community's, and that you should try harder to keep your off-topic
>> impulses under control.
>
> You could either plonk me or delete those threads. You don't. Ask
> yourself why.
It is a poor defense for off topic posts that readers can just
use their kill file.
They should not have to. You should stay on topic.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:04:29 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> <NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>> The same thing could be said for paying your bills on time. That doesn't
>> make it relevant for the Java programming newsgroup.
>
> I get the impression your motive in debate is primarily putting others
> down. The topic is almost irrelevant.
Actually explaining why server admin questions are off topic in cljp
is on topic.
Unlike the question bout server admin.
Arne
David Segall
>The Australian government recommends changing your passwords at least
>twice a year. They even have a "change your password day", I think in
>early June. Does anyone know exactly when it is, how you compute when
>it is, and when it was first "celebrated"?
>
>Oddly I could not discover this with 30 minutes of Googling and
>sending an email to the government department.
I'm in Australia and had never heard of this "day" but since
Google takes into account the source of the query finding the
information you requested was easy for me
<http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25591599-15306,00.html>.
The inaugural date was 5 June 2009. You will have to ask Senator
Conroy's office <http://www.minister.dbcde.gov.au/> or department
when, or if, the day will be repeated.
Wojtek
> I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
Group : comp.lang.java.programmer
Computing time : 00:03:42
Statistics : from 1991.02.05 to 2009.09.16
***** Users with most messages *****
num| Name | Nb Msg | size | or. | %
----|-----------------------------|--------|------------|-----|--------|
1 | Roedy Green | 10,018 | 19,438,158 | 738 | 6.18%
|
2 | Lew | 9,606 | 25,665,679 | 222 | 5.92%
|
3 | Arne Vajhï¿œj | 6,136 | 14,326,454 | 19 | 3.78%
|
4 | Andrew Thompson | 5,211 | 10,777,113 | 311 | 3.21%
|
5 | Oliver Wong | 2,627 | 6,976,008 | 102 | 1.62%
|
6 | Patricia Shanahan | 2,284 | 5,944,951 | 30 | 1.41%
|
7 | Chris Uppal | 2,259 | 5,381,696 | 95 | 1.39%
|
8 | Daniel Pitts | 2,251 | 6,258,700 | 78 | 1.39%
|
9 | Mark Space | 1,987 | 4,902,131 | 32 | 1.23%
|
10 | Mike Schilling | 1,729 | 4,422,652 | 35 | 1.07%
|
11 | Andreas Leitgeb | 1,441 | 3,102,448 | 31 | 0.89%
|
12 | Tom Anderson | 1,392 | 4,294,710 | 15 | 0.86%
|
13 | Eric Sosman | 1,377 | 4,253,920 | 17 | 0.85%
|
14 | nebul...@gmail.com | 1,371 | 4,890,108 | 2 | 0.85%
|
15 | Knute Johnson | 1,205 | 3,328,341 | 53 | 0.74%
|
16 | Joshua Cranmer | 1,170 | 2,995,254 | 17 | 0.72%
|
17 | Stefan Ram | 1,145 | 2,746,456 | 75 | 0.71%
|
18 | Thomas Hawtin | 1,143 | 2,754,991 | 67 | 0.70%
|
19 | Gordon Beaton | 1,061 | 1,882,607 | 32 | 0.65%
|
20 | Twisted | 1,035 | 3,807,710 | 28 | 0.64%
|
--
Wojtek :-)
Wojtek
> They even have a "change your password day",
This is a terrible idea.
Black hats will know when you change your password and ANYTHING which
gives them more information is a Bad Thing(tm)
We rotate our passwords, but the exact number of days between changes
is sightly randomized.
--
Wojtek :-)
Jerry Gerrone
> Roedy Green wrote :
>
> > I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
>
> Group : comp.lang.java.programmer
> Computing time : 00:03:42
> Statistics : from 1991.02.05 to 2009.09.16
>
> ***** Users with most messages *****
> num| Name | Nb Msg | size | or. | %
> ----|-----------------------------|--------|------------|-----|--------|
> |
> 20 |Twisted | 1,035 | 3,807,710 | 28 | 0.64%
Yikes, and even though I hardly post here anymore.
What's Oliver Wong doing in position number 5? Nobody by that name
posts here, and I don't recall anyone with that name except for a
comp.emacs flamer that paid a brief visit four or five years ago.
There's no way that nut posted over 2500 articles in one flamewar.
Of course, combining my own entries puts me in the number six spot and
bumps Patricia down to number seven.
Fewer posts than Oliver Wrong, and more of them on topic.
Mike Schilling
>> What's Oliver Wong doing in position number 5? Nobody by that name
> posts here, and I don't recall anyone with that name except for a
> comp.emacs flamer that paid a brief visit four or five years ago.
The stats go back to 1991, so it's not too surprising that it includes
at least one person not heard from for years. And I don't post that
frequently here. My name appears only because
1. I've been around for a long time.
2. It's been many years since I changed my e-mail address.
Joshua Cranmer
> On Sep 16, 11:02 am, Wojtek<nowh...@a.com> wrote:
>> Roedy Green wrote :
>>
>>> I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
>>
>> Group : comp.lang.java.programmer
>> Computing time : 00:03:42
>> Statistics : from 1991.02.05 to 2009.09.16
> What's Oliver Wong doing in position number 5? Nobody by that name
> posts here,
Look at the statistics. From February 5, 1991. Checking on the
abominable Google groups, he had >4K posts in this newsgroup, the last
one being August 15, 2007, which should have been in the middle of
flaming season. I do recall him being a heavy poster before, but he
hasn't touched the newsgroup in 2 years.
I'm surprised I managed so high when I've posted for, what, 3 years?
Joshua Cranmer
> 2. It's been many years since I changed my e-mail address.
I think the script may be using display names instead of email
addresses, but only Wojtek knows for sure...
--
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
Wojtek
> On 09/16/2009 12:34 PM, Mike Schilling wrote:
>> 2. It's been many years since I changed my e-mail address.
>
> I think the script may be using display names instead of email addresses, but
> only Wojtek knows for sure...
What script? Do you know how many hours it took me to count these out?
Ok, Ok, it was MesNews with its built-in stats engine. I think it takes
the names from the "author" column it displays, and it gets that
information from the header, so for yours it would be:
Author : Joshua Cranmer <Pidg...@verizon.invalid>
So Joshua Cranmer gets another count.
--
Wojtek :-)
Daniel Pitts
> Roedy Green wrote :
>> I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
>
> Group : comp.lang.java.programmer
> Computing time : 00:03:42
> Statistics : from 1991.02.05 to 2009.09.16
>
> ***** Users with most messages *****
> num| Name | Nb Msg | size | or. | %
> ----|-----------------------------|--------|------------|-----|--------|
--
Daniel Pitts' Tech Blog: <http://virtualinfinity.net/wordpress/>
Arne Vajhøj
> On Sep 16, 11:02 am, Wojtek <nowh...@a.com> wrote:
>> Roedy Green wrote :
>>> I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
>> Group : comp.lang.java.programmer
>> Computing time : 00:03:42
>> Statistics : from 1991.02.05 to 2009.09.16
>>
>> ***** Users with most messages *****
>> num| Name | Nb Msg | size | or. | %
>> ----|-----------------------------|--------|------------|-----|--------|
>> 14 | nebulou...@gmail.com | 1,371 | 4,890,108 | 2 | 0.85%
>> |
>> 20 |Twisted | 1,035 | 3,807,710 | 28 | 0.64%
>
> Yikes, and even though I hardly post here anymore.
I compltely agree: yikes.
> What's Oliver Wong doing in position number 5? Nobody by that name
> posts here, and I don't recall anyone with that name except for a
> comp.emacs flamer that paid a brief visit four or five years ago.
> There's no way that nut posted over 2500 articles in one flamewar.
You were not here in 1996 (it says 1991, but I believe that cljp
is from 1996 and it is definitely not 1991 since Java is from 1995).
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> Jerry Gerrone wrote:
>>> What's Oliver Wong doing in position number 5? Nobody by that name
>> posts here, and I don't recall anyone with that name except for a
>> comp.emacs flamer that paid a brief visit four or five years ago.
>
> The stats go back to 1991, so it's not too surprising that it includes
> at least one person not heard from for years.
Very true.
But I don't think there are any cljp posts from 1991.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
How come that Jon Skeet is not on the list ?
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> Wojtek wrote:
>> Roedy Green wrote :
>>> I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
>>
>> Group : comp.lang.java.programmer
>> Computing time : 00:03:42
>> Statistics : from 1991.02.05 to 2009.09.16
>>
>> ***** Users with most messages *****
>> num| Name | Nb Msg | size | or. | %
>> ----|-----------------------------|--------|------------|-----|--------|
>> 8 | Daniel Pitts | 2,251 | 6,258,700 | 78 | 1.39% |
> Yay, I made the top ten :-)
You made the same list as twisted ...
Arne
Wojtek
So I opened the filter wider than required. <shrug>
--
Wojtek :-)
Wojtek
> How come that Jon Skeet is not on the list ?
I only copy/pasted the top 20 out of 300
And only this stat. There are others.
--
Wojtek :-)
Wojtek
> Arne Vajhï¿œj wrote :
>> How come that Jon Skeet is not on the list ?
>
> I only copy/pasted the top 20 out of 300
>
> And only this stat. There are others.
273 | Jon Skeet [C# MVP] | 63 | 200,956 | 0 | 0.04%
|
--
Wojtek :-)
Mike Schilling
> Wojtek wrote :
>> Arne Vajh�j wrote :
>>> How come that Jon Skeet is not on the list ?
>>
>> I only copy/pasted the top 20 out of 300
>>
>> And only this stat. There are others.
>
> 273 | Jon Skeet [C# MVP] | 63 | 200,956 | 0 |
> 0.04%
That looks wrong. I've had conversatins with Jon that went on for 5
or 10 on several occastions.
RedGrittyBrick
He posted a lot to c.l.j.help and to c.l.j.gui according to Google Groups.
Actually, every time I look at his profile in GG it shows a different
number of postings in a different number of newsgroups. It now shows
12,443 postings in c.l.j.programmer, mostly between Oct 1999 and April 2004.
<Shrug>
--
RGB
Wojtek
> Wojtek wrote:
>> Wojtek wrote :
>>> Arne Vajhï¿œj wrote :
>>>> How come that Jon Skeet is not on the list ?
>>>
>>> I only copy/pasted the top 20 out of 300
>>>
>>> And only this stat. There are others.
>>
>> 273 | Jon Skeet [C# MVP] | 63 | 200,956 | 0 | 0.04%
>
> That looks wrong. I've had conversatins with Jon that went on for 5 or 10 on
> several occastions.
Well the stats are taken from the cache that I have on my machine. If I
don't have the posting, then it will not be counted. And all of that is
dependant on the news server and its storage rules.
I never stated that this was rigorous, scientifically vetted, peer
reviewed, cross-checked information.
Just a fun thing to look at really.
--
Wojtek :-)
Mike Schilling
> Mike Schilling wrote :
>> Wojtek wrote:
>>> Wojtek wrote :
>>>>> How come that Jon Skeet is not on the list ?
>>>>
>>>> I only copy/pasted the top 20 out of 300
>>>>
>>>> And only this stat. There are others.
>>>
>>> 273 | Jon Skeet [C# MVP] | 63 | 200,956 | 0 |
>>> 0.04%
>>
>> That looks wrong. I've had conversatins with Jon that went on for 5
>> or 10 on several occastions.
>
> Well the stats are taken from the cache that I have on my machine. If
> I don't have the posting, then it will not be counted. And all of
> that is dependant on the news server and its storage rules.
>
> I never stated that this was rigorous, scientifically vetted, peer
> reviewed, cross-checked information.
>
> Just a fun thing to look at really.
Google groups shows 12443 posts for Jon Skeet, compared to 2366 for me. So
something's a bit off :-)
Daniel Pitts
flame-wars, that I was higher than Twisted.
Then again, he was having "trouble" with Google Groups blocking the
number of posts per day, so he used several accounts.
Arne Vajhøj
> Arne Vajhï¿œj wrote :
>> How come that Jon Skeet is not on the list ?
>
> I only copy/pasted the top 20 out of 300
>
> And only this stat. There are others.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.programmer/about?hl=en
claims 11981 posts !
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
We are not expecting it to be the ultimate truth.
We are just puzzled and want to inform you why.
Arne
Nebulous
> Jerry Gerrone wrote:
> > On Sep 16, 11:02 am, Wojtek <nowh...@a.com> wrote:
> >> Roedy Green wrote :
> >>> I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
> >> Group : comp.lang.java.programmer
> >> Computing time : 00:03:42
> >> Statistics : from 1991.02.05 to 2009.09.16
>
> >> ***** Users with most messages *****
> >> num| Name | Nb Msg | size | or. | %
> >> ----|-----------------------------|--------|------------|-----|--------|
> >> 14 | nebulou...@gmail.com | 1,371 | 4,890,108 | 2 | 0.85%
> >> |
> >> 20 |Twisted | 1,035 | 3,807,710 | 28 | 0.64%
>
> > Yikes, and even though I hardly post here anymore.
>
None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.
> > What's Oliver Wong doing in position number 5? Nobody by that name
> > posts here, and I don't recall anyone with that name except for a
> > comp.emacs flamer that paid a brief visit four or five years ago.
> > There's no way that nut posted over 2500 articles in one flamewar.
>
> You were not here in 1996
Irrelevant.
Nebulous
Nebulous
<newsgroup.spamfil...@virtualinfinity.net> wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> > Daniel Pitts wrote:
> >> Wojtek wrote:
> >>> Roedy Green wrote :
> >>>> I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
>
> >>> Group : comp.lang.java.programmer
> >>> Computing time : 00:03:42
> >>> Statistics : from 1991.02.05 to 2009.09.16
>
> >>> ***** Users with most messages *****
> >>> num| Name | Nb Msg | size | or. | %
> >>> ----|-----------------------------|--------|------------|-----|--------|
> >>> 8 | Daniel Pitts | 2,251 | 6,258,700 | 78 | 1.39% |
> >> Yay, I made the top ten :-)
>
>
> [implied insults deleted]
None of the nasty things that either of you have said or implied about
Arne Vajhøj
Very relevant.
Because cljp started in 1996.
And if you were not there back then, then there are no reason
why you should be surprised over not having seen a very active
poster.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Sep 16, 8:24 pm, Arne Vajh�j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>> Wojtek wrote:
>>>> Roedy Green wrote :
>>>>> I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
>>>> Group : comp.lang.java.programmer
>>>> Computing time : 00:03:42
>>>> Statistics : from 1991.02.05 to 2009.09.16
>>>> ***** Users with most messages *****
>>>> num| Name | Nb Msg | size | or. | %
>>>> ----|-----------------------------|--------|------------|-----|--------|
>>>> 8 | Daniel Pitts | 2,251 | 6,258,700 | 78 | 1.39% |
>>> Yay, I made the top ten :-)
>
> all true.
Are you sure?
I am pretty sure that you were on the list!
Arne
Tom Anderson
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:04:29 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> <NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>
>> Here's a hint: if you on a regular basis find yourself having to defend
>> posts described by others as "off-topic" (and you do), you really
>> should consider that your idea of "on-topic" really isn't the same as
>> the rest of the community's, and that you should try harder to keep
>> your off-topic impulses under control.
>
> You could either plonk me or delete those threads. You don't. Ask
> yourself why.
I'm with Roedy on this. If you think a thread is OT, deal with it like you
would any other uninteresting thread: delete and read on. Complaining
about it is as OT as the thread itself, and doesn't even contain the
potentially interesting content a thread like this does. Complaining about
it, frankly, is perverse.
tom
--
As a matter of fact, it is estimated that 10% of all meth labs explode.
Tom Anderson
> Arne Vajh?j wrote :
Java 1.11 introduces (willan on-introduce) JATN, the Java API for Temporal
Networking. This allows (willan on-allow) programmers to connect back
(on-connecta forewhen) to NNTP servers in the early 90s and post (preposta
acting-retro-when) articles before the invention of java. This will be
(late be-an have re-having been) less interesting than it sounds, as most
of them are still Roedy posting links to his site and Lew demanding
SSCCEs.
tom
(with apologies to Dr Dan Streetmentioner)
Peter Duniho
wrote:
> [...]
> Complaining about it is as OT as the thread itself, and doesn't even
> contain the potentially interesting content a thread like this does.
> Complaining about it, frankly, is perverse.
Welcome back. Where have you been?
Anyway, you fail to recognize that the hope here is that by making
comments in one specific example, the miscreant will see fit to change
their ways, thus saving us from continued future off-topic threads.
An investment in the future does often require some up-front cost in order
to bear fruit. Furthermore, contrary to your claim, it is not nearly as
off-topic to discuss the best use of a newsgroup as it is to post things
that having nothing at all to do with the newsgroup. It'd be silly to
think that in a newsgroup, one should never actually communicate about the
best way to use _that newsgroup_.
Pete
Tom Anderson
> On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:43:50 -0700, Tom Anderson <tw...@urchin.earth.li>
> wrote:
>
>> Complaining about it is as OT as the thread itself, and doesn't even
>> contain the potentially interesting content a thread like this does.
>> Complaining about it, frankly, is perverse.
>
> Welcome back. Where have you been?
Lisbon.
> Anyway, you fail to recognize that the hope here is that by making comments
> in one specific example, the miscreant will see fit to change their ways,
> thus saving us from continued future off-topic threads.
You fail to recognise Roedy!
> An investment in the future does often require some up-front cost in
> order to bear fruit. Furthermore, contrary to your claim, it is not
> nearly as off-topic to discuss the best use of a newsgroup as it is to
> post things that having nothing at all to do with the newsgroup. It'd
> be silly to think that in a newsgroup, one should never actually
> communicate about the best way to use _that newsgroup_.
I do actually disagree. I was on wiki - back when you didn't need to
qualify the name 'wiki' - when it collapsed under the sheer load of
WikiOnWiki meta-discussion. For a while, it turned what had been the home
of the most interesting technical discussion on the internet into a
roiling storm of uselessness. That stopped after a while, but it never
quite recovered. Since then, i've mostly seen meta-discussion as a
complete waste. Even off-topic but vaguely related discussion is better.
tom
--
sapere aude!
RedGrittyBrick
>
> Java 1.11 introduces (willan on-introduce) JATN, the Java API for
> Temporal Networking. This allows (willan on-allow) programmers to
> connect back (on-connecta forewhen) to NNTP servers in the early 90s and
> post (preposta acting-retro-when) articles before the invention of java.
> This will be (late be-an have re-having been) less interesting than it
> sounds, as most of them are still Roedy posting links to his site and
> Lew demanding SSCCEs.
>
> tom
> (with apologies to Dr Dan Streetmentioner)
>
<Applause * 42>
--
RGB
Joshua Cranmer
> Java 1.11 introduces (willan on-introduce) JATN, the Java API for
> Temporal Networking. This allows (willan on-allow) programmers to
> connect back (on-connecta forewhen) to NNTP servers in the early 90s and
> post (preposta acting-retro-when) articles before the invention of java.
> This will be (late be-an have re-having been) less interesting than it
> sounds, as most of them are still Roedy posting links to his site and
> Lew demanding SSCCEs.
So that's why we get so much spam in these newsgroups?
--
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
Jerry Gerrone
> >> Jerry Gerrone wrote:
> >>> What's Oliver Wong doing in position number 5? Nobody by that name
> >>> posts here, and I don't recall anyone with that name except for a
> >>> comp.emacs flamer that paid a brief visit four or five years ago.
> >>> There's no way that nut posted over 2500 articles in one flamewar.
> >> You were not here in 1996
>
> > Irrelevant.
>
No, you're the liar.
Jerry Gerrone
> >> Daniel Pitts wrote:
> >>> Wojtek wrote:
> >>>> Roedy Green wrote :
> >>>>> I also think that people who post a lot should be given more latitude.
> >>>> Group : comp.lang.java.programmer
> >>>> Computing time : 00:03:42
> >>>> Statistics : from 1991.02.05 to 2009.09.16
> >>>> ***** Users with most messages *****
> >>>> num| Name | Nb Msg | size | or. | %
> >>>> ----|-----------------------------|--------|------------|-----|--------|
> >>>> 8 | Daniel Pitts | 2,251 | 6,258,700 | 78 | 1.39% |
> >>> Yay, I made the top ten :-)
Do not misquote me again. Your post contained supposed "quoted
material" that did not occur in the post that you followed up to nor
summarize material that did. That is incorrect. Stop being dishonest.
None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.
> > None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
> > all true.
>
> [suggests that I might be lying]
No, you're the liar.
None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me are at
all true.
Jerry Gerrone
NO FEEDBACK LOOPS!
> > Arne Vajh?j wrote :
> >> Mike Schilling wrote:
> >>> Jerry Gerrone wrote:
> >>>>> What's Oliver Wong doing in position number 5? Nobody by that name
> >>>> posts here, and I don't recall anyone with that name except for a
> >>>> comp.emacs flamer that paid a brief visit four or five years ago.
>
> >>> [implied insult deleted]
>
> >> Very true.
No. None of the nasty things that Mike has said or implied about me
are at all true.
Mike Schilling
I didn't say or imply anything about you.
Arne Vajhøj
Complaining about off-topic is the only way to try and raise S/N.
Arne
Mike Schilling
>
> Complaining about off-topic is the only way to try and raise S/N.
Its immediate effect is always to lower it. Expecting the cumulative
effect will be to raise it is like expecting to turn a profit in Las
Vegas.
Peter Duniho
<mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
That's a completely incorrect analogy. Commercial gambling establishments
have a known "take"; barring cheating it's not possible to affect the
outcome in the long run.
Complaining about off-topic posts is more like disciplining an unruly
child. There may be some initial fussing, arguing, temper tantrums, etc.
In the short run, this gives the appearance of losing ground. But if a
parent is consistent about the discipline, the child will eventually learn
to behave themself. In the long run, a relatively small investment of
stress, inconvenience, discomfort, etc. results in a more peaceful
existence.
You can argue with the dealer at a Vegas table until you're blue in the
face; it won't change the outcome. But the same is not necessarily true
of people who misbehave. True, some people are immune to common sense and
community standards, but often a person can be swayed to comply with the
community standards, if only someone expressly explains those standards to
the misbehaving person.
That's what makes these kinds of meta-topic discussions worthwhile.
Pete
Tom Anderson
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:28:06 -0700, Mike Schilling
> <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Arne Vajh?j wrote:
>>>
>>> Complaining about off-topic is the only way to try and raise S/N.
>>
>> Its immediate effect is always to lower it. Expecting the cumulative
>> effect will be to raise it is like expecting to turn a profit in Las
>> Vegas.
>
> That's a completely incorrect analogy. Commercial gambling establishments
> have a known "take"; barring cheating it's not possible to affect the outcome
> in the long run.
>
> Complaining about off-topic posts is more like disciplining an unruly child.
CLJP NAUGHTY STEP! CLJP NAUGHTY STEP!
tom
--
Yulava? Niob Yam!
Dave Searles
> You can argue with the dealer at a Vegas table until you're blue in the
> face; it won't change the outcome. But the same is not necessarily true
> of people who misbehave. True, some people are immune to common sense
> and community standards, but often a person can be swayed to comply with
> the community standards, if only someone expressly explains those
> standards to the misbehaving person.
When, though, were *you* put in charge of community standards? Roedy is
at least as old a hand here as you are; maybe it should be *his* call.
In which case you and others flaming him are the ones violating
community standards. Or, the community standards should emerge by broad
consensus. In which case to *prove* you're not mis-enforcing them you'd
need to conduct a poll.
Roedy Green
<sea...@hoombah.nurt.bt.uk> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :
>Roedy is
>at least as old a hand here as you are
Why is there a topic rule? To make it easier to find things. It is
not there because certain topics are verboten. When there are no new
threads for days at a time, the off-topic rules SHOULD be relaxed to
stimulate discussion.
When traffic falls below a certain volume, a newsgroup dies entirely.
Our newsgroup is in far more danger from low traffic and bullies
frightening others off than it is from topic drift and slightly off
topic posts.
Did you ever see the movie Dr. Strangelove? In it a US soldier refuses
to shoot a Coke machine to get a dime to phone in the recall codes for
nuclear bombers.
Spam is far more of a problem that off topic posts, yet there is
almost no discussion about how we could eliminate it.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
I advocate that super programmers who can juggle vastly more complex balls than average guys can, should be banned, by management, from dragging the average crowd into system complexity zones where the whole team will start to drown.
~ Jan V.
Peter Duniho
<see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> Why is there a topic rule? To make it easier to find things.
That is not the sole reason. You may have nothing else to do but some
people, believe it or not, have a limited amount of time on their hands,
and wasting a bunch of time junking a bunch of threads (never mind feeling
compelled to be distracted by meta-issues asking that people stop wasting
their time forcing them to junk a bunch a threads) isn't what they want to
spend their time doing. And in spite of the widespread availability of
broadband, there are still users for whom it's a hardship to download
headers or messages for a bunch of off-topic posts.
That you would overlook this I find very ironic, given your previous
assertion that simply fixing the Java implementation of StringBuilder so
that it works like .NET's would have some significant impact on energy
consumption around the world. All of your off-topics posts have WAY more
effect globally than fixing StringBuilder would. Moving data between
computers is much more expensive than copying it from one memory location
to another.
> It is
> not there because certain topics are verboten. When there are no new
> threads for days at a time, the off-topic rules SHOULD be relaxed to
> stimulate discussion.
There is no need to "stimulate discussion".
> When traffic falls below a certain volume, a newsgroup dies entirely.
False. A newsgroup "dies entirely" when there are no longer enough people
interested in the topic.
The Java and .NET APIs have largely supplanted the need for people to use
the Winsock API. But, the alt.winsock.programming newsgroup still exists,
and people continue to monitor it. When a question is posted, often it is
still answered within the day. The newsgroup is far from dead. And yet,
weeks can go by without a single message being posted to that newsgroup.
The Java newsgroup is in no danger whatsoever of withering.
> Our newsgroup is in far more danger from low traffic and bullies
> frightening others off than it is from topic drift and slightly off
> topic posts.
That's not the point. Your job isn't to save the Java newsgroup, and even
if it was, polluting the newsgroup with off-topic posts doesn't accomplish
that goal. If anything, when you screw up the signal-to-noise ratio that
way, you cause harm, reducing the effectiveness of the newsgroup and
increasing the changes that people will abandon it.
> Did you ever see the movie Dr. Strangelove? In it a US soldier refuses
> to shoot a Coke machine to get a dime to phone in the recall codes for
> nuclear bombers.
If and when you can prevent an incipient nuclear attack by posting an
off-topic message to this newsgroup, please...by all means, post your
off-topic message.
Until then, that analogy is completely irrelevant.
> Spam is far more of a problem that off topic posts, yet there is
> almost no discussion about how we could eliminate it.
There's "almost no discussion", because we all understand that it's out of
our control. Most of the spam comes from Google, Google itself has no
interest in blocking it, and the independent news providers aren't going
to get together and stand up to Google to insist that they clean up their
act.
But a regular newsgroup member who ought to know better? Hope springs
eternal that such a person would eventually realize the error of their
ways and be swayed by the logic of sticking to the newsgroup charter.
Pete
Arne Vajhøj
> On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:46:24 -0400, Dave Searles
> <sea...@hoombah.nurt.bt.uk> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>> Roedy is
>> at least as old a hand here as you are
>
> Why is there a topic rule? To make it easier to find things.
No.
To avoid bothering people with stuff they are not interested in.
> When traffic falls below a certain volume, a newsgroup dies entirely.
>
> Our newsgroup is in far more danger from low traffic
cljp has a relative high traffic typical 2000-4000 posts per
day.
It would be fine with 1/10'th of that.
BTW, it is only the number of on topic posts that is relevant.
Offtopic posts and spam does not contribute to the groups
existence.
> Spam is far more of a problem that off topic posts, yet there is
> almost no discussion about how we could eliminate it.
That has already been explained to you once.
The typical spammer does not read replies. You do.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
The post of Roedys that started this thread is off topic.
Anyone understanding the four words in the group name can see that.
Arne
Dave Searles
> cljp has a relative high traffic typical 2000-4000 posts per
> day.
Bullshit. It has less than 1/10 that. It may have had that much years ago.
Dave Searles
Nobody's disputing that. But off topic posts are sometimes tolerated,
depending on those "community standards".
John B. Matthews
Dave Searles <sea...@hoombah.nurt.bt.uk> wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> > cljp has a relative high traffic typical 2000-4000 posts per
> > day.
>
> [...] It has less than 1/10 that. It may have had that much years ago.
I'm sure Arne meant "per month"; here is an historical overview:
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.programmer/about>
--
John B. Matthews
trashgod at gmail dot com
<http://sites.google.com/site/drjohnbmatthews>
Roedy Green
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>To avoid bothering people with stuff they are not interested in.
But ironically you and Peter spend far more time on threads you claim
not to be interested in.
Peter Duniho
<see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 22:06:24 -0400, Arne Vajhøj <ar...@vajhoej.dk>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>>
>> To avoid bothering people with stuff they are not interested in.
>
> But ironically you and Peter spend far more time on threads you claim
> not to be interested in.
Far more time than what?
Mike Schilling
> On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 23:36:47 -0700, Roedy Green
> <see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>>
>>>
>>> To avoid bothering people with stuff they are not interested in.
>>
>> But ironically you and Peter spend far more time on threads you
>> claim
>> not to be interested in.
>
> Far more time than what?
Any of the rest of us. I'm amazed every time I see this conversation
still going on.
Roedy Green
<NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :
>
>That is not the sole reason. You may have nothing else to do but some
>people, believe it or not, have a limited amount of time on their hands,
>and wasting a bunch of time junking a bunch of threads (never mind feeling
>compelled to be distracted by meta-issues asking that people stop wasting
>their time forcing them to junk a bunch a threads) isn't what they want to
>spend their time doing.
You CHOOSE which threads to read. For some reason you choose to read
mine even when you claim you are not interested in them. Further you
post and repost in threads I started. I am not forcing you to do that.
That makes no sense. You also have the right to plonk me. Given that
you claim you find my posts highly irritating no matter what the
topic, please plonk me.
Why would you follow all by threads so assiduously? Most likely,
because you find the things that come up in the drift of the
conversation interesting.
The image of the ardent Christian viewing porn for the ostensible
purpose of complaining about it comes to mind.
Roedy Green
someone who said :
>All of your off-topics posts have WAY more
>effect globally than fixing StringBuilder would. Moving data between
>computers is much more expensive than copying it from one memory location
>to another.
A typical post gets moved the various newsservers, and eventually
delivered to and read by perhaps 100 people at most. That is the end
of it.
On the other hand, webservers do almost nothing but string
concatenation. If you improved that, the serving of every page on
every server from now till the end of Java is improved. It is
billions of times bigger an effect.
Besides, StringBuilder replacement is surely perfectly on topic.
Roedy Green
someone who said :
>
>That is not the sole reason.
I suspect your carping about my posts has nothing at all to do with
how on topic they are. I suspect the problem is our difference in
politics, which usually does not come up directly, but is all over my
website.
RedGrittyBrick
> Peter Duniho wrote
>
>> That is not the sole reason.
>
> I suspect your carping about my posts has nothing at all to do with
> how on topic they are. I suspect the problem is our difference in
> politics, which usually does not come up directly, but is all over my
> website.
When you write three replies to a single comment it might be a sign that
you are getting overly worked up about something and would benefit
from taking some time out. At least, that's what I conclude when I feel
the urge.
I can't speak for Peter Duniho and I post too much off-topic material to
complain much about other people's off-topic threads but I do think it
possible that people /honestly/ object to off-topic discussion
regardless of the political affiliations of the poster.
--
RGB
Lew
I think it's a real stretch to accuse Pete of complaining to Roedy because of
political differences. That is an exercise in self-importance. What Pete
says overtly about his motivation is credible and sufficient to explain the
phenomenon without reaching into the paranoia/ego-gratification drawer.
--
Lew
Roedy Green
someone who said :
>
>There is no need to "stimulate discussion".
I disagree. Only comp.lang.java.programmer and comp.lang.java.help
have any traffic to speak of. I have been here since the Java 1.0
days. Traffic is WAY down.
I think there are three main reasons for it:
1. competition from blogs of various sorts. They offer freedom from
spam, moderation and more attractive formatting.
2. the language is more mature. People don't need a newsgroup so
much. There are plenty of books and other materials now. Most of the
people who converted from other languages have already done so.
3. the spirit of the group has become too often like a group of frat
rats hazing the pledges. Guideline enforcement is often used as an
excuse for cruelty, public humiliation and put downs. There is a whiff
of xenophobia, racism and bigotry.
Lew
> ... There is a whiff of xenophobia, racism and bigotry.
You mean like when a Canadian poster ignores no opportunity to bash the U.S.?
--
Lew
Peter Duniho
<mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
>>> But ironically you and Peter spend far more time on threads you claim
>>> not to be interested in.
>>
>> Far more time than what?
>
> Any of the rest of us.
Though, barely more than you, apparently. :p
> I'm amazed every time I see this conversation still going on.
For reasons I can't explain, I continue to hold out hope that Roedy will
eventually become enlightened. As for Roedy's own participation, that's
hardly amazing, considering his willingness to _start_ all manner of
random threads that have nothing to do with Java programming.
Peter Duniho
<see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> You CHOOSE which threads to read. For some reason you choose to read
> mine even when you claim you are not interested in them.
Wrong. The vast majority of threads you start, I junk immediately.
> Further you post and repost in threads I started.
Wrong. I have made multiple replies _in this thread only_.
> I am not forcing you to do that.
I never said you are. Got any more strawmen you'd like to prop up?
> That makes no sense. You also have the right to plonk me.
That doesn't stop the threads from appearing. I'd have to plonk everyone
who ever replies to you too.
> Given that
> you claim you find my posts highly irritating no matter what the
> topic, please plonk me.
I have never made that claim. Stop putting words in my mouth.
> Why would you follow all by threads so assiduously?
I don't.
> Most likely,
> because you find the things that come up in the drift of the
> conversation interesting.
False premise, false conclusion.
Peter Duniho
<see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> A typical post gets moved the various newsservers, and eventually
> delivered to and read by perhaps 100 people at most. That is the end
> of it.
There are way more than 100 people involved, and huge number of NNTP
servers.
As far as this:
> [...]
> Besides, StringBuilder replacement is surely perfectly on topic.
More strawman. I never said the StringBuilder topic was off-topic.
Peter Duniho
<see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> I suspect your carping about my posts has nothing at all to do with
> how on topic they are. I suspect the problem is our difference in
> politics, which usually does not come up directly, but is all over my
> website.
Of all the ridiculous things you've written, this is the most absurd.
Based on what little I've seen about your politics (which, frankly, is far
more than I should have seen reading a Java programming newsgroup), you
and I strongly agree on most, if not all, major political issues.
The one major difference that does exist politically is that I don't have
a persecution complex with respect to my political beliefs, whereas you
seem to.
Pete
Peter Duniho
<see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
>> There is no need to "stimulate discussion".
>
> I disagree. Only comp.lang.java.programmer and comp.lang.java.help
> have any traffic to speak of.
For the purposes of this discussion, only the former has any relevance,
and by your own admission it contains traffic.
> I have been here since the Java 1.0 days. Traffic is WAY down.
So what? Posting off-topic messages to a newsgroup isn't in any way a
productive way to breathe life into an otherwise moribund newsgroup, even
if this were one (which it's not).
The fact is, regardless of whatever are the relative amounts of traffic
between now and then, there is still plenty of on-topic discussion here
for the newsgroup to continue to survive. But even if there wasn't,
turning it into your dumping ground for topics for which you can't be
bothered to find a more appropriate forum doesn't help the survival of the
newsgroup. If anything, it just makes a premature death more likely
because it makes it harder and harder to find the threads that actually
have something to do with Java programming.
If you _really_ care about the health of this newsgroup, you'll stop
initiating off-topic threads.
> I think there are three main reasons for it: [...]
It doesn't matter why traffic in the newsgroup is down. Reducing the
signal-to-noise ratio with off-topic posts isn't going to improve things.
Traffic is not in and of itself useful. It needs to be traffic that
pertains the topic of the newsgroup for it to help. If you feel it so
important to post new threads as a way of supporting the newsgroup, find
on-topic threads to start. Otherwise, you're just being hypocritical,
harming the newsgroup even as you claim to want to help.
Pete
Arne Vajhøj
> In article <hajsjj$5jt$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Dave Searles <sea...@hoombah.nurt.bt.uk> wrote:
>
>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> cljp has a relative high traffic typical 2000-4000 posts per
>>> day.
>> [...] It has less than 1/10 that. It may have had that much years ago.
>
> I'm sure Arne meant "per month"; here is an historical overview:
>
> <http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.programmer/about>
Ooops.
Yes. Per month.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
cljp is actually reasonable tolerant. It is not like clc.
But Roedy has used his quote of tolerance.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 22:06:24 -0400, Arne Vajh�j <ar...@vajhoej.dk>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>> To avoid bothering people with stuff they are not interested in.
>
> But ironically you and Peter spend far more time on threads you claim
> not to be interested in.
Some people care enough that they are willing to spend some time
trying to stop your series of off-topic posts to this group.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 10:30:12 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> <NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>> That is not the sole reason.
>
> I suspect your carping about my posts has nothing at all to do with
> how on topic they are. I suspect the problem is our difference in
> politics, which usually does not come up directly, but is all over my
> website.
Bullshit.
Nobody here cares about your political opinion.
AS LONG AS YOU KEEP IT OUT OF HERE THAT IS !!!!
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 10:30:12 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> <NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>> There is no need to "stimulate discussion".
>
> I disagree. Only comp.lang.java.programmer and comp.lang.java.help
> have any traffic to speak of. I have been here since the Java 1.0
> days. Traffic is WAY down.
So you are posting off topic posts to cljp because cljx traffic is
down.
If that makes any sense to you then your are smoking something
that you should not smoke.
Besides: newsgroups does not need posts - newsgroups need
on-topic posts.
> I think there are three main reasons for it:
>
> 1. competition from blogs of various sorts. They offer freedom from
> spam, moderation and more attractive formatting.
>
> 2. the language is more mature. People don't need a newsgroup so
> much. There are plenty of books and other materials now. Most of the
> people who converted from other languages have already done so.
>
> 3. the spirit of the group has become too often like a group of frat
> rats hazing the pledges. Guideline enforcement is often used as an
> excuse for cruelty, public humiliation and put downs. There is a whiff
> of xenophobia, racism and bigotry.
If you prefer blogs, then why not start a blog?
You can post whatever you want on your own blow.
I can almost guarantee you that no one from here will go to
your blog and complain about off-topic posts.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 10:30:12 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> <NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>> That is not the sole reason. You may have nothing else to do but some
>> people, believe it or not, have a limited amount of time on their hands,
>> and wasting a bunch of time junking a bunch of threads (never mind feeling
>> compelled to be distracted by meta-issues asking that people stop wasting
>> their time forcing them to junk a bunch a threads) isn't what they want to
>> spend their time doing.
>
> You CHOOSE which threads to read. For some reason you choose to read
> mine even when you claim you are not interested in them. Further you
> post and repost in threads I started. I am not forcing you to do that.
> That makes no sense. You also have the right to plonk me. Given that
> you claim you find my posts highly irritating no matter what the
> topic, please plonk me.
>
> Why would you follow all by threads so assiduously? Most likely,
> because you find the things that come up in the drift of the
> conversation interesting.
Because we care about cljp and want to keep your off-topic crap
out of it.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 10:30:12 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> <NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
> someone who said :
>> All of your off-topics posts have WAY more
>> effect globally than fixing StringBuilder would. Moving data between
>> computers is much more expensive than copying it from one memory location
>> to another.
>
> A typical post gets moved the various newsservers, and eventually
> delivered to and read by perhaps 100 people at most. That is the end
> of it.
A lot more than a 100 people read this group.
There are probably a 100 people posting to this group.
> On the other hand, webservers do almost nothing but string
> concatenation. If you improved that, the serving of every page on
> every server from now till the end of Java is improved. It is
> billions of times bigger an effect.
>
> Besides, StringBuilder replacement is surely perfectly on topic.
It is.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> Arne Vajh�j wrote:
>> Complaining about off-topic is the only way to try and raise S/N.
>
> Its immediate effect is always to lower it. Expecting the cumulative
> effect will be to raise it is like expecting to turn a profit in Las
> Vegas.
Depends on how bad the off-topic poster is.
Arne
David Segall
>On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 00:23:13 -0700, Roedy Green
>> That makes no sense. You also have the right to plonk me.
>
>That doesn't stop the threads from appearing. I'd have to plonk everyone
>who ever replies to you too.
No. You would just need a good news reader. Forte Agent
<http://www.forteinc.com/> will allow you to plonk Roedy and all the
replies to his posts. I believe that xnews has a similar facility.
There must be some others that will run on a Mac.
David Segall
>Dave Searles wrote:
Not mine! I have found his Java and Internet glossary invaluable. Most
of his, admittedly, off-topic posts are aimed at improving the site
and I think he is entitled to use the group as he would a group of
Java programming colleagues. If you don't like it should be easy to
tell your news reader to ignore him and any thread he starts.
Peter Duniho
Unfortunately, that turns out not to be the case.
In fact, just yesterday I have grudgingly switched over to Thunderbird,
after a long stint with Opera, because Opera finally gave up on me. But
even Opera wasn't really that great.
(I'd been struggling along with a minor connectivity issue, where Opera
would pop up some kind of authentication error every time I tried to
download messages, in spite of actually successfully downloading
messages up to the point of the message. But Opera finally broke
completely, and now crashes every time I try to download messages. I
tried reinstalling it from scratch, deleting all of the various
supporting files in the cache, app support, preferences, etc.
directories before installing, but to no avail).
A couple of years ago, when I came back to the Mac after a couple of
decades off, I spent several weeks surveying the newsreader landscape.
I have a long list of newsreaders for the Mac, and a list just as long
of how each of those newsreaders fail to meet even the most basic of my
newsreading feature requirements.
The closest thing to a really good newsreader is one called "Nemo", but
it's a one-man show, written by a guy in college who really doesn't put
the focus into it that he needs to for it to be high quality software.
It's been "in development" for years, and still has serious data
corruption and crashing bugs.
Opera and Thunderbird come the closest, but neither has much in the way
of message filtering. Both can block specific senders, as well as
ignore a thread, but in neither have I found anything as robust as
what's available on the Unix/Linux command-line reader I used to use
(e.g. rn), or some of the better newsreaders on Windows (e.g. Agent,
Dialog).
If you or anyone else knows of a _really good_ GUI newsreader for the
Mac, something that is as capable as rn, Agent, and Dialog, I'm all ears.
Of course, even with a good newsreader, I'd have the dilemma of whether
to ignore Roedy completely or not. Unfortunately, he does occasionally
post things of value. Hence my preference to educate him, rather than
exclude him altogether.
But it'd be nice to even have the choice. :)
Pete
Martin Gregorie
> David Segall wrote:
>> "Peter Duniho" <NpOeS...@nnowslpianmk.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 00:23:13 -0700, Roedy Green
>>>> That makes no sense. You also have the right to plonk me.
>>> That doesn't stop the threads from appearing. I'd have to plonk
>>> everyone who ever replies to you too.
>>
>> No. You would just need a good news reader. Forte Agent
>> <http://www.forteinc.com/> will allow you to plonk Roedy and all the
>> replies to his posts. I believe that xnews has a similar facility.
>> There must be some others that will run on a Mac.
>
> Unfortunately, that turns out not to be the case.
>
Older versions of Agent (1.8, 4.1) ran well under rather old versions of
WINE (0.9.x) but nobody has tested Agent 5.0 under WINE 1.1.x. That might
be worth a try.
Failing that, have you looked at recent versions of Pan?
Obligatory on-topic statement: there seem to be several open source Java
newsreaders around. Have you looked at any of them? Writing another may
not be too difficult since JavaMail provides support for NNTP and there
is an NNTP provider available for it.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
Peter Duniho
>
> Older versions of Agent (1.8, 4.1) ran well under rather old versions of
> WINE (0.9.x) but nobody has tested Agent 5.0 under WINE 1.1.x. That might
> be worth a try.
>
> Failing that, have you looked at recent versions of Pan?
>
> Obligatory on-topic statement: there seem to be several open source Java
> newsreaders around. Have you looked at any of them? Writing another may
> not be too difficult since JavaMail provides support for NNTP and there
> is an NNTP provider available for it.
All good suggestions. Unfortunately, none are "turn-key". Without
boring you with all the details, I'll simply say that there's a
significant time investment involved in all of those options, and in
terms of prioritizing use of my time, Usenet is pretty low on the list.
Frankly, writing my own is the most appealing, but of course the most
time-consuming as well, even if there do happen to be pre-written
components I can use to speed development (not being familiar with any
of them, not even JavaMail, there is of course the added cost of having
to find out and learn about each of them).
I've got Thunderbird up and running, and it only took about 30 minutes
to get all the basic configuration set up (four different NNTP servers,
various newsgroups, and even trying -- only with partial success -- to
figure out how to easily check newsgroups for new messages without
clicking on each one). It's not perfect, but the time cost for these
other possible solutions doesn't seem to be properly justified by the
relatively minimal benefit of improved message/thread filtering tools.
Not when I get 90% of the way there in just half an hour.
And of course, solving one individual's newsreader issues is not nearly
as productive a way to improving the quality of a newsgroup as would be
to convince a person polluting the newsgroup with off-topic messages to
simply stop it, so that message filtering features weren't even needed.
Pete
Joshua Cranmer
> I've got Thunderbird up and running, and it only took about 30 minutes
> to get all the basic configuration set up (four different NNTP servers,
> various newsgroups, and even trying -- only with partial success -- to
> figure out how to easily check newsgroups for new messages without
> clicking on each one).
If you go to the Account Settings, you can tell it how frequently to
check for new messages and whether to check on startup.
--
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth