Why no Forth games?
Davide Bionda
Forth is fast and compact. Looks like the ideal language for writing
games. At least before computer performance and memory size dramaticaly
increased.
** BUT **, although I use computers since the early 80's, I have yet to
come accross a game that was written in Forth. Action games were written
in Assembler and adventure games sometimes in BASIC. Do someone know of
a famous game or program that was written in Forth?
Thanks,
Davide
Bernd Paysan
Davide Bionda wrote:
> ** BUT **, although I use computers since the early 80's, I have yet to
> come accross a game that was written in Forth. Action games were written
> in Assembler and adventure games sometimes in BASIC. Do someone know of
> a famous game or program that was written in Forth?
The famous Infocom games (Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, and others)
were written in Forth.
--
Bernd Paysan
"Late answers are wrong answers!"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/
Peter Knaggs
Bernd Paysan wrote:
>
> Davide Bionda wrote:
> > ** BUT **, although I use computers since the early 80's, I have yet
> > to come accross a game that was written in Forth. Action games were
> > written in Assembler and adventure games sometimes in BASIC. Do
> > someone know of a famous game or program that was written in Forth?
Breakout was written in Forth.
> The famous Infocom games (Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, and
> others) were written in Forth.
Do you have access to the source, or are you just surmising due to the
fact that the Infocom adventures where interpreted. It could just as
easily be a lisp engine, a la Doom.
--
Peter Knaggs
p...@bcs.org.uk
Marc de Groot
Atari's coin-op division used Forth for many arcade games. I believe
Pac-Man (or was it Ms. Pac-Man) was written in Forth. The coin-op
division believed that the fastest path to high-performance code
was to write it in Forth and recode the innermost loops in assembler.
In 1981 I was the technical director of Unison World, a game company
in Berkeley. We produced over a dozen games for CP/M machines, all
written in fig-Forth. Those games were sold only in Japan,
unfortunately, so I never had the thrill of seeing my own
work on the local computer store shelves. The games were distributed
by Japan SoftBank.
Using Jerry Boutelle's Nautilus metacompiler, we ported those
Z80-based games to the 6502 and 6809. The ports
typically took less than three months.
Finally, my networked virtual reality development system uses Forth
for defining object behavior, and is well-suited for writing
real-time 3D games. See the URL below for more info.
--
Marc de Groot <postm...@immersive.com>
Immersive Systems, Inc. http://www.immersive.com/
San Francisco, CA Meme(tm). Worlds better.
joe davison
I have a friend who worked for Bally many years ago now,
programming arcade video games in forth.
He had interesting stories of having little memory --
the video ram was positioned where the stack could
grow into it. If one was playing and saw interesting
"sparkles" along the bottom of the screen, it behooved
one to avoid shooting into them, as that was likely
to prove fatal -- shooting oneself in the stack, as it were...
joe
I don't know which games.
Andy Leighton
On Wed, 06 May 1998 13:18:34 +0200, Bernd Paysan <bernd....@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk> wrote:
>Davide Bionda wrote:
>> ** BUT **, although I use computers since the early 80's, I have yet to
>> come accross a game that was written in Forth. Action games were written
>> in Assembler and adventure games sometimes in BASIC. Do someone know of
>> a famous game or program that was written in Forth?
>
>were written in Forth.
No, Infocom wrote their adventures using ZIL which was lisp-based.
However I believe there was an action games toolkit/language for the
ZX Spectrum which was forth-like. Plus there must have been some
games for the Jupiter Ace which used Forth instead of Basic as its
high level language.
--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.dircon.co.uk
"... January is your third most common month for madness" - _Sarah Canary_
Bernd Paysan
Peter Knaggs wrote:
> > The famous Infocom games (Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, and
> > others) were written in Forth.
>
> fact that the Infocom adventures where interpreted. It could just as
> easily be a lisp engine, a la Doom.
No, I read an interview with the makers of the Infocom adventures, and
they admitted that it was written in Forth. Thus even without reading
the source, I would trust that source.
BTW: the Infocom games run on a C64, and I doubt that a lisp engine
_and_ a game data base would fit into the memory, or even could execute
at tolerable speed.
neme...@lakehurst.navy.mil
Somewhere I have a list of software products done in or prototyped in Forth.
It was published in Forth Dimensions and posted on the old ECFB bbs.
From memory:
Atari Prototyped some games if Forth.
Chipwits a Mac game , programmable robots I think.
I will search for this list but it has been about 5 years since I saw it.
In article <35502B5D...@erdw.ethz.ch>,
Davide Bionda <bio...@erdw.ethz.ch> wrote:
>
> Forth is fast and compact. Looks like the ideal language for writing
> games. At least before computer performance and memory size dramaticaly
> increased.
> ** BUT **, although I use computers since the early 80's, I have yet to
> come accross a game that was written in Forth. Action games were written
> in Assembler and adventure games sometimes in BASIC. Do someone know of
> a famous game or program that was written in Forth?
>
> Thanks,
> Davide
>
>
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Stephen Pelc
Davide Bionda <bio...@erdw.ethz.ch> wrote in article
<35502B5D...@erdw.ethz.ch>...
> ** BUT **, although I use computers since the early 80's, I have yet to
> come accross a game that was written in Forth. Action games were written
> in Assembler and adventure games sometimes in BASIC. Do someone know of
> a famous game or program that was written in Forth?
in Forth, and one of the Football Manager (soccer) series was done in
Forth - MPE did some of the tool making for it.
--
Stephen Pelc, MicroProcessor Engineering - More real, less time
133 Hill Lane, Shirley, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 1703 631441, fax: +44 1703 339691, net: s...@mpeltd.demon.co.uk
web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk
Stefan Axelsson
In article <slrn6l1drr...@azaal.dircon.co.uk>,
Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>However I believe there was an action games toolkit/language for the
>ZX Spectrum which was forth-like. Plus there must have been some
>games for the Jupiter Ace which used Forth instead of Basic as its
>high level language.
Well, there were a few (for the Jupiter Ace that is), but nothing
really worth mentioning.
Stefan,
--
Stefan Axelsson Chalmers University of Technology
s...@rmovt.rply.ce.chalmers.se Dept. of Computer Engineering
(Remove "rmovt.rply" to send mail.)
Brian Reynolds
In article <355173...@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk>,
Bernd Paysan <bernd....@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk> wrote:
>Peter Knaggs wrote:
>> > The famous Infocom games (Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, and
>> > others) were written in Forth.
>>
>> Do you have access to the source, or are you just surmising due to the
>> fact that the Infocom adventures where interpreted. It could just as
>> easily be a lisp engine, a la Doom.
>
>No, I read an interview with the makers of the Infocom adventures, and
>they admitted that it was written in Forth. Thus even without reading
>the source, I would trust that source.
>
>BTW: the Infocom games run on a C64, and I doubt that a lisp engine
>_and_ a game data base would fit into the memory, or even could execute
>at tolerable speed.
>
The orignal ZORK was written in MUDDLE (aka MDL, a successor to LISP)
for the PDP-10.
The Infocom games were written in what was known as Zork
Implementation Language (ZIL, aka z-code, similar to MDL) which was
compiled to z-code and ran on a virtual z-machine. The Z-machine
Interpreter Program (aka ZIP), that executed the z-code on the user's
machine, might have been written in forth on some platforms. I
haven't found anything that would confirm or deny this.
All of this (and more) can be found at:
<ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/infocom/articles/NZT-Zorkhistory.txt>
which is a history of Zork written by one of the original authors of
Zork.
<ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/> is the archives of rec.arts.int-fiction
and rec.games.int-fiction.
Now a days ZIL compilers and z-code interpreters tend to be written in
C. A forth based z-code interpreter might be a fun project. Source
for several z-code interpreters and standards documents (reverse
engineered by interactive fiction fans and developers) are available.
--
Brian Reynolds | "Humans explore the Universe with five
reyn...@panix.com | senses and call the adventure science."
http://www.panix.com/~reynolds/ | - Edwin P. Hubble
Jean
> However I believe there was an action games toolkit/language for the
> ZX Spectrum which was forth-like.
White Lightning.
Don't have an URL handy, sorry. But it should be out there in one of the
Sinclair-emulator archives if someone wants to take a look.
Julian V. Noble
James Hague writes:
> Being both a video game historian and Forth user, I've been interested in
> this topic for some time. What's peculiar is how most of the games
> commonly cited as being written in Forth simply aren't, or they've never
> been 100% confirmed.
>
> Defender was written in 6809 assembly (plus some hand-assembled machine
> code).
>
> Zork and the other Infocom games were written in ZIL, which isn't
> Forth-like.
>
> Breakout, as legend has it, was created with hard-coded logic (i.e. no
> software). This thread is the first time I've heard Forth mentioned in
> conjunction with it.
I think there is a Forth version of Breakout in Byte Mag.--the famous
Forth issue with Moore's article about Forth, etc. About October 1980.
[ rest deleted ]
--
Julian V. Noble
j...@virginia.edu
"Elegance is for tailors!" -- Ludwig Boltzmann
alban read
I think the spectrum games package was called White Lightning (it was
forth.) I dont think anyone actually wrote any games with it.
Andy Leighton wrote in message ...
Stephen Pelc
> games. At least before computer performance and memory size dramaticaly
> increased.
> come accross a game that was written in Forth. Action games were written
> in Assembler and adventure games sometimes in BASIC. Do someone know of
> a famous game or program that was written in Forth?
One of our clients ships a complete card game with their application
which was used to plan the new Hong Kong airport as well as many other
construction projects worldwide. The game looks like Freecell, but is
much harder, and is written in ProForth for Windows.
Eldon Eller
In article <01bd8184$f81f29e0$0200a8c0@stephen>, "Stephen Pelc"
<s...@mpeltd.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Davide Bionda <bio...@erdw.ethz.ch> wrote in article
> <35502B5D...@erdw.ethz.ch>...
> > Forth is fast and compact. Looks like the ideal language for writing
> > games. At least before computer performance and memory size dramaticaly
> > increased.
> > ** BUT **, although I use computers since the early 80's, I have yet to
> > come accross a game that was written in Forth. Action games were written
> > in Assembler and adventure games sometimes in BASIC. Do someone know of
> > a famous game or program that was written in Forth?
> I know its not famous but ...
>
I have written a couple of simple games for the Mac in Forth, but they have
never been distributed commercially. One, written mostly by my son in Mach2
forth, is a solitaire game called Mom's. The other, written by me in MOPS,
plays paper, scissors, rock with you. It can ususally beat you to 50 wins.
If anyone wants either of these (with or without source code), please
e-mail me. But be forewarned, they work well, but the source code is pure
spaghetti.
Bill
Back in '84/'85 I wrote "The Pyramid of Peril" (for Mac) and "MacChallenger"
in Forth.
Pyramid of Peril still runs (sorta) on the Mac PPC's.... Do a "HotBot"
search for it.
Also... Electronic Arts did the "Starflight" series in Forth. There are
more I'm sure.
Atari used Forth on some Arcade games in the early '80's ... I believe.
Bill Volk
Eldon Eller wrote in message ...
Godzilla
On Wed, 06 May 1998 11:20:29 +0200, Davide Bionda
>come accross a game that was written in Forth. Action games were written
>in Assembler and adventure games sometimes in BASIC. Do someone know of
>a famous game or program that was written in Forth?
Well, back in my Apple ][ days, I was playing a variety of games
written by Scott Adams, ie: Pyramid of Doom, Strange Odyssey, Ghost
Town and a few more, that were coded in a Forth language, in a text
based game environment ala Zork.
Peter Lutus, creator of GraFORTH, SuperGraphics and other things wrote
an (apparent) adaptation of the Atari Star Raiders game titled Space
Raiders, completely in an early version of his GraFORTH system. Spent
a bit of time reverse engineering this one to figure out how to add
the special effects he had used in my own programs.
The Scott Adams games are currently available via the Internet from
several Apple ][ archive sites, along with emulators for the PC,
should any wish to check them out.
Davide Bionda
Godzilla wrote:
> Peter Lutus, creator of GraFORTH, SuperGraphics and other things wrote
> an (apparent) adaptation of the Atari Star Raiders game titled Space
> Raiders, completely in an early version of his GraFORTH system.
Is this the same Space Raiders that was running on the Sinclair ZX Spectrum?
Davide
Zbiggy
> On Monday, May 11, 1998 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, Jean wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> White Lightning.
>>
>> Don't have an URL handy, sorry. But it should be out there in one of the
>> Sinclair-emulator archives if someone wants to take a look.
>
I believe, that during that 15 years he totally forgot, he asked such
question at all.
--
The consensus was, as usual in this community, that there is no consensus. (RA)
Mark Wills
> question at all.
Here's a game written in Forth in 2012, by yours truly:
http://turboforth.net/tutorials/darkstar.html
Steve
wrote:
Jason Damisch
> Do someone know of
> a famous game or program that was written in Forth?
Here is the game. You will need either an old Atari ST or an emulator
stockton-website-design.net/fun/skampy.zip
Here is the source code.
http://stockton-website-design.net/fun/skampydv.zip
Jason
Steve
games. Programs are so big now days, authors could easily repackage
their old game with an emulator run time environment interfaced to
instantlly run and reroute controls, and put them on Google play, and
it would still be small. If only there were freeware run time
environments like that.
Jason Damisch
> I think that it is a shame you have to run emulstors to run these old
> games. Programs are so big now days, authors could easily repackage
As it is now, I am busy with other things.
Jason
jonjo
Ed
I recall reading that Atari used Forth in their early games - which one's?
The most famous game written in Forth would have to be Starflight.
Some years ago, Tim Lee - one of the authors - placed online whatever
documents and source he still had. And yes, it was written in screens.
Want to access the forth interpreter underlying Starflight 1 & 2 ?
Here's a program that will patch the game binaries to do that:
http://dxforth.webhop.org/sfpat.zip
You'll need to obtain the Starflight game binaries. I have them
somewhere but should be readily available on the net.
gschm...@gmail.com
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/files/boardgame/all?username=gschmidt
and a recently submitted puzzle...http://www.freewarefiles.com/BoxOff_program_85505.html
All of these games include source code. When the game is launched, the Forth source code which defines the game is loaded and executed.
Axiom began life as a plug-in engine to a commercial package called "Zillions of Games". You can see the full list of implemented games and puzzles here:
http://www.zillions-of-games.com/
There is also the Axiom Toolkit which can be downloaded there that contains documentation on both the Forth system and how to use it to create new games & puzzles.
Scroll about 1/2 way down until you find "Axiom". There are 68 games and puzzles, however these (unlike the above, require purchasing the Zillions of Games package in order to run - which I have no stake in other than being a huge fan of the system).
More links...
http://www.mindsports.nl/index.php/axiom
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/axiom-system/
A few games were created to promote "Nestorgames". Adaptoid is the most popular of them all:
http://www.nestorgames.com/#adaptoid_detail
BTW, I've found Forth to be an excellent language for implementing games and puzzles.
-- Greg
On Wednesday, May 6, 1998 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, Davide Bionda wrote:
> Forth is fast and compact. Looks like the ideal language for writing
> games. At least before computer performance and memory size dramaticaly
> increased.
> come accross a game that was written in Forth. Action games were written
>
> Davide
Steve
market in general, that people could make money on their own games
packaged to run with an emulator run time.
Steve.