could forth be used for a mmporg?
gavino
conver hosting fees for the main server?
Jerry Avins
> like a world of warcraft but semi open source and charging realy to
> conver hosting fees for the main server?
Is that spam?
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
�����������������������������������������������������������������������
Josh Grams
> gavino wrote:
>> like a world of warcraft but semi open source and charging realy to
>> conver hosting fees for the main server?
>
> Is that spam?
No, just a troll. :)
Look for instance at his top-level postings for the last year:
* happstack.com in forth
* could a linux scheduler be done smaller in forth?
* is haypress really 250 Ghz????!!!
* cisco and juniper make huge amounts of $, have forthers tried network
equipment biz?
* how does one learn to make a forth os
* forth on multi core liek say i7
* Jeff Fox please write a book on learning forth the Jeff Fox way
* http://www.prevayler.org/wiki/ can such a style be done in forth?
* Is anyone using mr Paysan's webserver? or improving it?
* is forthOs DEAD?
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_Broadband_Engine vs seaforth?
Never any content or follow through, or any interest in actually
learning or using (or even implementing) Forth that I can tell.
--Josh
Hugh Aguilar
> Jerry Avins wrote:
> > gavino wrote:
> >> like a world of warcraft but semi open source and charging realy to
> >> conver hosting fees for the main server?
>
> > Is that spam?
>
> No, just a troll. :)
I've heard the term "troll" used on the 911movement forum and
elsewhere, but I don't know what the definition is. What exactly is a
troll trying to accomplish?
Elizabeth D Rather
From Wikipedia: "In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts
controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages in an
online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog,
with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional
response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."
Aleksej is pretty close... we tend to cut him some slack because he does
know a little bit about Forth, but I've lost interest in his debates.
Cheers,
Elizabeth
--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com
"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================
Aleksej Saushev
> Hugh Aguilar wrote:
>> On Oct 26, 9:48 am, Josh Grams <j...@qualdan.com> wrote:
>>> Jerry Avins wrote:
>>>> gavino wrote:
>>>>> like a world of warcraft but semi open source and charging realy to
>>>>> conver hosting fees for the main server?
>>>> Is that spam?
>>> No, just a troll. :)
>>
>> I've heard the term "troll" used on the 911movement forum and
>> elsewhere, but I don't know what the definition is. What exactly is a
>> troll trying to accomplish?
>
> From Wikipedia: "In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts
> controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages
> in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat
> room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users
> into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal
> on-topic discussion."
>
> Aleksej is pretty close... we tend to cut him some slack because
> he does know a little bit about Forth, but I've lost interest in
> his debates.
According to your definition, I can't be troll, because my posts are
non-controversial, relevant and on-topic. That they are inflammatory
is because it is really hard to revise your views, especially those
established 25 years ago and almost never revisited since then.
I'm sure that if I join you in your beliefs that everything is pretty nice
and King Haled International Airport project shows how Forth fluorishes
where everyone else fails, I'll never be called "a troll."
--
HE CE3OH...
John Passaniti
> From Wikipedia: "In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts
> controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages in an
> online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog,
> with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional
> response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."
>
> Aleksej is pretty close... we tend to cut him some slack because he does
> know a little bit about Forth, but I've lost interest in his debates.
I'm not sure why you brought Aleksej into this thread-- the question
was if gavino is a troll, not Aleksej.
I don't consider gavino a troll. Using the Wikipedia definition, I
don't think gavino's primary intent is to provoke emotional responses
or disrupt discussion. gavino strikes me more as the wide-eyed type
of person who comes to Forth primarily through the hype,
exaggerations, and unqualified and uncontested claims the Forth
community loves to engage in. His posts are here because he's been
sold on the idea that if you merely sprinkle Forth on something, it
magically becomes better. And as a bonus, he's not making any
distinctions between Forth the language, Forth as application code
(remember his fascination with Bernd's web server), Forth as a
philosophy of software development, and Forth as the hardware and
software from Charles Moore. It's all the same to him-- a blur of
ideas and things that is largely free of any context.
Or put another way, gavino is the monster you all have created.
Enjoy.
My prediction: At some point gavino will take one of two paths. The
first path is that as he realizes that Forth isn't everything he
imagines it to be, he will become cynical and reject it. He'll
probably then latch onto some other language or paradigm or technology
or whatever and write the same kinds of things that he's written here
in another newsgroup.
The second path will be that he will actually start to play with Forth
and eventually do something non-trivial with it. In the process of
doing that, he will learn that Forth is stunningly good for some
situations and fantastically awful for others. He will learn that the
larger application of Forth as a philosophy of software development is
both completely in sync with modern agile methodologies and can be
applied to other languages. He will learn the tradeoffs inherent in
Moore's hardware and software and understand when those tradeoffs make
sense and when they don't.
Oh hell, who am I kidding. Most of the people in comp.lang.forth
haven't reached that level. What chance does gavino?
Richard Russell
> From Wikipedia: "In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts
> controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages in an
> online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog,
> with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional
> response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."
>
> Aleksej is pretty close...
Hear hear!
Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
Jason Damisch
> like a world of warcraft but semi open source and charging realy to
> conver hosting fees for the main server?
Yes, anything C can do, Forth can do, in theory.
In practice, one would need to
A. Write a great deal of code to accomplish this.
B. Use a Forth system which would make calls out to something else
which has been written
take a look at
http://www.multiverse.net/index.html
maybe somebody could slip a Forth in there someplace.
Jason
Hugh Aguilar
> The second path will be that he will actually start to play with Forth
> and eventually do something non-trivial with it. In the process of
> doing that, he will learn that Forth is stunningly good for some
> situations and fantastically awful for others. He will learn that the
> larger application of Forth as a philosophy of software development is
> both completely in sync with modern agile methodologies and can be
> applied to other languages. He will learn the tradeoffs inherent in
> Moore's hardware and software and understand when those tradeoffs make
> sense and when they don't.
>
> Oh hell, who am I kidding. Most of the people in comp.lang.forth
> haven't reached that level. What chance does gavino?
All of this analysis of trollness begs the question of why any of us
are here. Every minute spent on the internet is a minute that could
have been spent programming. Some people (Aleksej Saushev and John
Passaniti) seem to have a psychological need to be pessimistic. Other
people (Gavino) seem to have a psychological need to be optimistic.
Other people (Elizabeth Rather) seem to salespeople indirectly
promoting their product. Personally, I post messages on c.l.f. because
I'm lonely and bored. I've been a Forth programmer all of my life, but
only recently started visiting c.l.f.. This was due more to my own
psychological state (see above) than to any demand from the c.l.f.
community for the benefit of my wisdom. So far, the only technical
contribution that I have made was some code for a FIELD word as a
response to a novice's question about C-style structs. That was a
positive contribution, but a pretty minor one, as anybody with a
modicum of experience could have written the same code. The "Starting
Forth" book may have even presented similar code, although I can't
remember as it was 25 years ago when I read that book.
Generally when a person calls another person a troll, he is trying to
prove that he isn't a troll himself. He wants to prove that whatever
he is thinking about is necessarily on-topic, by the negative proof
that whatever other people are thinking about is off-topic.
I can imagine an entire city of trolls walking around dragging their
knuckles on the ground. Occasionally, one of them will look up, point
at one of the others, and yell: "Hey! You're a troll!" Then all of the
trolls will go back to walking around dragging their knuckles on the
ground. Then one of them will look up...
gavino
here. Each s about apps that could be grown into a million dollar
startup. I get few good replies from people running startups using
forth to kick ass.
gavino
>
> "Forth-based products and Services for real-time
> applications since 1973."
> ==================================================
I am so bummed that I got both forth handbook and app techniques and
then the 3rd edition came out. I FAIL
gavino
I did heard recently from a perler that the CPAN makes perl the best
because there is so many ready solutions. I guess the downside si
inefficiency and having to learn how someone did it and patch the
stuff together into a solution instead of attacking the problem the
core problem head on as Mr. Moore seems to like to do.
gavino
does anyone blog about such?
About howto get coloforth running on a pc?
idknow
a troll is a social engineer, as Kevin Mitnik was and which he found
so much trouble. A troll is someone who practices what I call `mental
abuse' (this is supposed to be funny)
an abuse of process meant to disturb someone else.
LOL, to me anyway :)
P.M.Lawrence
.
.
.
In the process of
> doing that, he will learn that Forth is stunningly good for some
> situations and fantastically awful for others.
I wouldn't go that far, the way I might say that Cobol is stunningly
good for some situations (like yoking programmers to something
pedestrian, very much a pointy haired boss's eye view) and
fantastically awful for others (if nothing else, there are some things
it can't even do). I'd say that Forth is at worst mediocre for the
others, in the sense that what you get there is as good or bad as
other programming languages or environments would give you. Of course,
that would often make it not cost effective because of the additional
work building what those already contain, or strategically a poor
choice because of the lower availability of support staff over the
work's life - but the end product of the work itself wouldn't be bad.
But you may be applying "awful" to those other factors and considering
them part of Forth for this purpose, where I distinguish them from
Forth proper. P.M.Lawrence.
P.M.Lawrence
.
.
.
> All of this analysis of trollness begs the question of why any of us
> are here.
Most places, I lurk enough to try to make sure I learn more than I put
my foot in my mouth, and I go to a lot of places I disagree with so I
know the enemy and/or don't end up simply reinforcing my prejudices
(that way, they are only provisional judgments open to change when
justified, not locked in). There, I often refute errors or tauten
stuff that is too loose, e.g. broadly true but doesn't fit the general
situation (the other day someone at the Mises blog gave the general
picture that Brahmins are at the top of India's caste system, and I
mentioned that there is some regional modification of that). I also go
to places where I have a curiosity interest and I may have a greater
or lesser knowledge, more or less current, which I can add to or where
I can occasionally contribute either directly or by cross-relating to
other areas - often analogous historical situations. So mostly my
postings are follow ups, but once in a while when it doesn't seem out
of place I try to push personal interests, like the role of economic
externalities in raising unemployment, the problems of age benefit
systems with an ageing population, what to do about them, and so on
(here, I wouldn't lay that on people unless they asked - but please do
ask).
Here, it's an interest thing, partly because I drew on Forth for a
project many years ago where I was given the commandment "thou shalt
use IBM 360 assembler or Cobol" even though it was really a job for C
or similar (I asked for the tools for the job, and got turned down by
my immediate boss on the grounds that his superiors said so - though
the case was never put to them and I was denied access to them except
for presentations endorsing his view, presentations in which I got
into trouble from the superiors for disloyalty if I ever told it like
it was). I've also chipped in a bit where things connected to related
hobbies like my occasional Furphy project (see http://users.beagle.com.au/peterl/furphy.html
- usually in hiatus) and also where things connected to some past
hobby-level Forth. So here I mostly lurk, and the stuff that triggers
me to comment often has more generic relevance like this post.
Pedant quibble: that's not what begging the question is. P.M.Lawrence.
Jerry Avins
...
> Pedant quibble: that's not what begging the question is. P.M.Lawrence.
I always admired your command of language.
Jerry
--
Besides a mathematical inclination, an exceptionally good mastery of
one's native tongue is the most vital asset of a competent programmer.
Edsger W. Dijkstra
����������������������������������������������������������������������
Hugh Aguilar
> So mostly my
> postings are follow ups, but once in a while when it doesn't seem out
> of place I try to push personal interests, like the role of economic
> externalities in raising unemployment, the problems of age benefit
> systems with an ageing population, what to do about them, and so on
> (here, I wouldn't lay that on people unless they asked - but please do
> ask).
Try visiting my website (www.rosycrew.org) if you are interested in
economics.
> Here, it's an interest thing, partly because I drew on Forth for a
> project many years ago where I was given the commandment "thou shalt
> use IBM 360 assembler or Cobol" even though it was really a job for C
I like IBM360 assembler! I would choose it over C for any application.
I've never programmed in COBOL, but I've heard a lot of bad things
about it. On the other hand, I work as a cabdriver nowadays, so if I
was offered a job as a COBOL programmer I wouldn't turn it down. I'd
have to buy a tie and figure out how to tie it --- that would be the
biggest challenge to becoming a COBOL programmer.
> Pedant quibble: that's not what begging the question is. P.M.Lawrence.
What does "beg the question" mean then?
Jerry Avins
To beg the question is to assume, in a debate, that which the debate is
intended to decide.
P.M.Lawrence
> On Nov 1, 7:19 pm, "P.M.Lawrence" <pml540...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So mostly my
> > postings are follow ups, but once in a while when it doesn't seem out
> > of place I try to push personal interests, like the role of economic
> > externalities in raising unemployment, the problems of age benefit
> > systems with an ageing population, what to do about them, and so on
> > (here, I wouldn't lay that on people unless they asked - but please do
> > ask).
>
> Try visiting my website (www.rosycrew.org) if you are interested in
> economics.
While that's interesting, it only touches economics peripherally in
passing. I have some older articles at http://users.beagle.com.au/peterl/publicns.html
and some more recent stuff at http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/05/05/pml-on-tax-reform
which is more specifically policy-oriented. Neither your material nor
mine is relevant enough to be spelled out here unless specifically
requested, but links are probably OK.
>
> > Here, it's an interest thing, partly because I drew on Forth for a
> > project many years ago where I was given the commandment "thou shalt
> > use IBM 360 assembler or Cobol" even though it was really a job for C
>
> I like IBM360 assembler! I would choose it over C for any application.
Well, when it started I knew very little IBM 360 assembler but I did
know C moderately well and had done a lot of work in Algol family
languages (as well as Cobol). Also, it was easier to do function calls
and setting up and referencing data structures in C, as well as object
oriented stuff before the term was widely used (I documented it as
"data driven"), and getting the right libraries would have enabled
doing some of the specified project requirements that had to be
dropped (dynamically choosing file details on opening at run time when
parameters were known, file details which IBM 360 assembler and Cobol
only allowed to be statically provided at assemble time - unless I did
self modifying code using IBM 360 proprietary information I couldn't
get).
.
.
.
>
> > Pedant quibble: that's not what begging the question is. P.M.Lawrence.
>
> What does "beg the question" mean then?
See other commenter's reply. P.M.Lawrence.
jmdrake
> like a world of warcraft but semi open source and charging realy to
> conver hosting fees for the main server?
Sure. The ancestor to the MMPORG was the MUD (multi user dungeon).
Forth was built into one of these early multi user online environments
as a scripting language that would let "wizard" level players
customize
the environment.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
Also Google "Multi User Forth".
It shouldn't be terribly difficult to build the server in Forth too
and have a 100% Forth MUD. (It can't be built on "standard" Forth
because Forth has never standardized on networking protocols and
probably won't anytime soon either. But pick your favorite Forth,
learn how it makes networking calls and have at it.) You'll end
up with a 100% text based system which won't get much notice in
today's world of Runescape and WOW. But you could build a graphical
interface on top of it. (Again that's not standardized and won't
be anytime soon if ever. Every Forth implementation of OpenGL
or even simply 2D graphics is different from every other. Pick
one and go with it.)
Side note. It's a shame that (some) people simply didn't answer
your question, which is ENTIRELY appropriate for this group, and
instead went off of "troll" and "spam" tangents. We need a name
for that too. Saboteurs maybe?
Regards,
John M. Drake
gavino
Correcton I have 3rd ed false alarm.
gavino
gavino
yeah, saboteurs