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If I were a forth programmer, by gavino the unix guru
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gavino_himself
Sep 26, 2012, 9:30:11 PM9/26/12
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ok I have my archlinux machine or hek even bsd and attached is nice 8 disk array in raid 10 software raid for nice fast access to 1T of disk space. There are 8 gig of ram and 4 3.8ghz amd64 cpu on the box. I add gforth. Now I want to make a dynamic website liek craigslsit but with a postit board liek live journal and a chat like irc but done in html. How would a real forth programmer go about accomplishing this?
Ron Aaron
Sep 27, 2012, 12:47:48 AM9/27/12
to
Gavino himself,
I'm sure it's been said before, but maybe you didn't pay attention: if
you want to write a great website, you should use a framework and
language which are designed for ... writing websites! Like for example,
a typical LAMP setup. Very easy to set-up, very easy to write for, and
guess what? You can write anything you want for it.
Forth is a great language for certain things, its not as great for
other things. The same can be said for every other language out there.
Specifically, Forth is not designed for writing websites. Yes, you can
use it to do that, just as you could use Perl or C++ or bash for the
same thing. Those choices aren't *appropriate*, particularly if you
want to get the site running quickly (unless you've done it before, and
have code you can quickly adapt).
Please, stop asking "can forth do that". Yes, it can "do that", for any
"that" you may care to name ... but so can every other language. The
question is, how much effort do you want to expend to make it happen?
I spend 95% of my programming time writing C++, since that's what my
bosses want and need. I don't try to convince them to use Forth,
because there is no point in that. The rest of my time is split between
Java (for the Android app I wrote, and others coming up), TeX (for
document projects I'm doing), PHP (for a couple websites I support) and
Forth (for my Reva project, which is just for fun mostly). The
important take-away is that you use the language which most fits the
problem domain, rather than use a hammer for every kind of problem.
I'm sure it's been said before, but maybe you didn't pay attention: if
you want to write a great website, you should use a framework and
language which are designed for ... writing websites! Like for example,
a typical LAMP setup. Very easy to set-up, very easy to write for, and
guess what? You can write anything you want for it.
Forth is a great language for certain things, its not as great for
other things. The same can be said for every other language out there.
Specifically, Forth is not designed for writing websites. Yes, you can
use it to do that, just as you could use Perl or C++ or bash for the
same thing. Those choices aren't *appropriate*, particularly if you
want to get the site running quickly (unless you've done it before, and
have code you can quickly adapt).
Please, stop asking "can forth do that". Yes, it can "do that", for any
"that" you may care to name ... but so can every other language. The
question is, how much effort do you want to expend to make it happen?
I spend 95% of my programming time writing C++, since that's what my
bosses want and need. I don't try to convince them to use Forth,
because there is no point in that. The rest of my time is split between
Java (for the Android app I wrote, and others coming up), TeX (for
document projects I'm doing), PHP (for a couple websites I support) and
Forth (for my Reva project, which is just for fun mostly). The
important take-away is that you use the language which most fits the
problem domain, rather than use a hammer for every kind of problem.
Mark Wills
Sep 27, 2012, 4:24:24 AM9/27/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
You're wasting your time, Ron... :-(
Sp...@controlq.com
Sep 27, 2012, 12:01:55 PM9/27/12
to
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, gavino_himself wrote:
> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:30:11 -0700 (PDT)
> From: gavino_himself <visplo...@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
> Subject: If I were a forth programmer, by gavino the unix guru
Unix gurus don't ask questions on usenet ... they read man pages.
> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:30:11 -0700 (PDT)
> From: gavino_himself <visplo...@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
> Subject: If I were a forth programmer, by gavino the unix guru
Elizabeth D. Rather
Sep 27, 2012, 4:17:16 PM9/27/12
to
On 9/26/12 3:30 PM, gavino_himself wrote:
> ok I have my archlinux machine or hek even bsd and attached is nice 8 disk array in raid 10 software raid for nice fast access to 1T of disk space. There are 8 gig of ram and 4 3.8ghz amd64 cpu on the box. I add gforth. Now I want to make a dynamic website liek craigslsit but with a postit board liek live journal and a chat like irc but done in html. How would a real forth programmer go about accomplishing this?
>
First, you need to become a "real Forth programmer" by working your way
> ok I have my archlinux machine or hek even bsd and attached is nice 8 disk array in raid 10 software raid for nice fast access to 1T of disk space. There are 8 gig of ram and 4 3.8ghz amd64 cpu on the box. I add gforth. Now I want to make a dynamic website liek craigslsit but with a postit board liek live journal and a chat like irc but done in html. How would a real forth programmer go about accomplishing this?
>
through the books and tutorials you already have, especially working all
the example problems. Then you need to write a simple application, which
a "dynamic website" is certainly not! You have quite a way to go before
you're ready to tackle an ambitious project.
Once you have gained all that experience with Forth, here is how to
tackle your project:
1. Develop a detailed design of the system you want to develop,
including its requirements (both what it needs to do and any timing or
other constraints it needs to meet).
2. Become thoroughly familiar with the specifications and internal
details of an html server and related technology.
3. Identify the extensions (e.g. Java and php) that you'll need to
support for your project, and become thoroughly familiar with their
specifications and requirements.
4. Look for existing software (in any language) that can fulfill some of
those requirements. Pay particular attention to how your code must
interface with that existing software.
5. Acquire and install the pre-existing software identified in #3.
6. Write whatever additional software you need to meet the
specifications developed in #1.
7. Test the entire system thoroughly.
If you want an "all Forth" solution and the components you identified in
#4 are not in Forth, then you can plan over time to replace these
one-by-one by Forth components.
You will find that the bulk of the time spent on this project is spent
on learning requirements and developing your detailed design. That is
the bulk of the time spent in any non-trivial project, independent of
language.
Cheers,
Elizabeth
--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com
"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================
shitstorm...@gmail.com
Sep 28, 2012, 5:04:57 PM9/28/12
to
Hehe gavino. You have many ideas about what to do in/with forth, but since you never go deeper into one idea, you are stuck dreaming. If you had the money and entrepreneur skills, you would have real forth programmers do the job for you, but unless you pay them, you are stuck alone. There is nothing wrong with being a dreamer but to make dreams come true, you will have to be realist and put a lot of effort into learning forth and writing real programs. I remember pupils from school that (in art class) simply wouldn't start drawing. They were unable to do the very first stroke or line. You might face the same difficulty with programming forth, am i right ?
Rod Pemberton
Sep 29, 2012, 3:03:42 PM9/29/12
to
"gavino_himself" <visplo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2a119528-07c8-4d98...@googlegroups.com...
>
I think you just throw "forth" into the mix so people won't complain about
you being OT (off-topic, i.e., not Forth related).
> ok I have my archlinux machine or hek even bsd and
> attached is nice 8 disk array in raid 10 software raid
> for nice fast access to 1T of disk space. There are 8 gig
> of ram and 4 3.8ghz amd64 cpu on the box. I add gforth.
LISD - lost in stupid details. I.e., why is any of this relevant?
> Now I want to make a dynamic website liek craigslsit but
> with a postit board liek live journal and a chat like irc but
> done in html. How would a real forth programmer go about
> accomplishing this?
How would a real unix programmer go about accomplishing this?
(I meant you, specifically ... )
In the broader sense, what makes you think the solution would be any
different?
Yes, the code would be different and the implementation could be different,
but the task that must be solved is the same. You'd go about solving the
implementation of that task the same way, but with the tools that are
available. Of course, the "same way" is not one way, but one of a few
methods you might use to solve the problem. Ms. Rather suggested a backfill
approach. That approach can result in many lingering compatibility,
maintenance, and inefficiency problems. Another method is straight forward
all-at-once, from-scratch. That approach takes much longer to implement.
Rod Pemberton
news:2a119528-07c8-4d98...@googlegroups.com...
>
I think you just throw "forth" into the mix so people won't complain about
you being OT (off-topic, i.e., not Forth related).
> ok I have my archlinux machine or hek even bsd and
> attached is nice 8 disk array in raid 10 software raid
> for nice fast access to 1T of disk space. There are 8 gig
> of ram and 4 3.8ghz amd64 cpu on the box. I add gforth.
> Now I want to make a dynamic website liek craigslsit but
> with a postit board liek live journal and a chat like irc but
> done in html. How would a real forth programmer go about
> accomplishing this?
(I meant you, specifically ... )
In the broader sense, what makes you think the solution would be any
different?
Yes, the code would be different and the implementation could be different,
but the task that must be solved is the same. You'd go about solving the
implementation of that task the same way, but with the tools that are
available. Of course, the "same way" is not one way, but one of a few
methods you might use to solve the problem. Ms. Rather suggested a backfill
approach. That approach can result in many lingering compatibility,
maintenance, and inefficiency problems. Another method is straight forward
all-at-once, from-scratch. That approach takes much longer to implement.
Rod Pemberton
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