Conversion of data & associated logic from ISAM to RDB
DaveM
2000. The concepts/examples we are seeking however can be more
generic, i.e., not necessarily shown within COBOL source code per se.
Right now we have two realized problems, both of which appear to stem
from our mutual and still-thriving ignorance......
The first problem is as follows: We are having surprising difficulty
in our attempts to find working examples of SQL-related code sequences
for handling low-volume user-entered updates vs large-volume batch
updates. The working examples we need can be represented as pseudo-
code and/or actual code - we don't really care which - we just need
something representative to work from. (See fictitious example
enclosed)
The second problem involves how to handle record locking issues among
multiple users. The lead analyst wants us to code logic that requires
maintenance of a date-time field in every record - this date-time
stamp would then be used for determining the availability of a given
record such that unilaterally-applied changes are not given an
opportunity to sneak in while another user has said record in a state
of flux. I'll spare you the further gory details of this terrifying
scheme for now, but suffice it to say we do not like it because it
seems that we would end up re-inventing the wheel, given that the rdb
is supposed to have various locking detection/tools already built into
it.
Here is a simple/fictitious representation of the type of code
sequence samples that we are looking for...
Typical LOW-VOLUME USER UPDATE module:
1. Open rdb
2. EXEC SQL WHENEVER SQLERROR DO sql_error;
3. Accept record key from user
4. Read matching record w/ shared lock (presume REC-FOUND for this
example)
5. Display fields on screen
6. Accept field updates from user
7. Edit field updates (presume EDIT-PASSED for this example)
8. BEGIN TRANSACTION
9. Read record from table with exclusive lock
10. Move new field values to table
11. Rewrite table record
12. COMMIT
13. END TRANSACTION
14. Close rdb
Typical HIGH-VOLUME BATCH UPDATE module:
1. Open rdb
2. ~?~?~
3. ~?~?~
4. ~?~?~
Perhaps there is a site somewhere that includes sql-related coding
examples? I appreciate in advance any input that anyone may have
about how we should be approaching this data conversion effort.
Sincerely,
Dave Miner
docd...@panix.com
DaveM <renf...@xemaps.com> wrote:
>We are using Micro Focus Net Express 4.0 and Microsoft SQL Server
>2000. The concepts/examples we are seeking however can be more
>generic, i.e., not necessarily shown within COBOL source code per se.
>
>Right now we have two realized problems, both of which appear to stem
>from our mutual and still-thriving ignorance......
>
>The first problem is as follows: We are having surprising difficulty
>in our attempts to find working examples of SQL-related code sequences
>for handling low-volume user-entered updates vs large-volume batch
>updates.
That's interesting... where have you looked for these, so that others here
might not duplicate your efforts?
>The working examples we need can be represented as pseudo-
>code and/or actual code - we don't really care which - we just need
>something representative to work from. (See fictitious example
>enclosed)
I'll do that.
>
>The second problem involves how to handle record locking issues among
>multiple users. The lead analyst wants us to code logic that requires
>maintenance of a date-time field in every record - this date-time
>stamp would then be used for determining the availability of a given
>record such that unilaterally-applied changes are not given an
>opportunity to sneak in while another user has said record in a state
>of flux.
How interesting... this is a time-honored technique that I first heard
described by someone who worked on one of the original airline reservation
systems.
Things have changed a bit since then... your lead analyst seems to want to
apply techniques for indexed files to a database; this has, in my
experience, usually resulted in disappointment for the system's users and
those who maintain the code.
>I'll spare you the further gory details of this terrifying
>scheme for now, but suffice it to say we do not like it because it
>seems that we would end up re-inventing the wheel, given that the rdb
>is supposed to have various locking detection/tools already built into
>it.
I am not sure about Microsoft SQL Server 2000 but I know that Oracle has
some pretty good internals to avoid deadlocks; I suggest that someone dig
into the appropriate manual and present the necessary pages to the lead
analyst.
>
>Here is a simple/fictitious representation of the type of code
>sequence samples that we are looking for...
>
>Typical LOW-VOLUME USER UPDATE module:
>1. Open rdb
>2. EXEC SQL WHENEVER SQLERROR DO sql_error;
>3. Accept record key from user
>4. Read matching record w/ shared lock (presume REC-FOUND for this
>example)
>5. Display fields on screen
>6. Accept field updates from user
>7. Edit field updates (presume EDIT-PASSED for this example)
>8. BEGIN TRANSACTION
>9. Read record from table with exclusive lock
>10. Move new field values to table
>11. Rewrite table record
>12. COMMIT
>13. END TRANSACTION
>14. Close rdb
Hmmmmm... is there anyone on this particular job who knows the difference
between a 'record' and a 'row'?
>
>
>Typical HIGH-VOLUME BATCH UPDATE module:
>1. Open rdb
>2. ~?~?~
>3. ~?~?~
>4. ~?~?~
2. Do a bunch of stuff.
3. Close rdb
4. Get promoted before this comes back to fasten its teeth in one's
gluteals.
>
>
>Perhaps there is a site somewhere that includes sql-related coding
>examples? I appreciate in advance any input that anyone may have
>about how we should be approaching this data conversion effort.
My suggestion is that you find people who know what they are doing and pay
them a lot of money to do it while you train the on-site staff to deal
with the new technology.
DD
Pete Dashwood
"DaveM" <renf...@xemaps.com> wrote in message
news:1175626528.5...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> We are using Micro Focus Net Express 4.0 and Microsoft SQL Server
> 2000. The concepts/examples we are seeking however can be more
> generic, i.e., not necessarily shown within COBOL source code per se.
>
> Right now we have two realized problems, both of which appear to stem
> from our mutual and still-thriving ignorance......
>
> The first problem is as follows: We are having surprising difficulty
> in our attempts to find working examples of SQL-related code sequences
> for handling low-volume user-entered updates vs large-volume batch
> updates. The working examples we need can be represented as pseudo-
> code and/or actual code - we don't really care which - we just need
> something representative to work from. (See fictitious example
> enclosed)
>
> The second problem involves how to handle record locking issues among
> multiple users. The lead analyst wants us to code logic that requires
> maintenance of a date-time field in every record - this date-time
> stamp would then be used for determining the availability of a given
> record such that unilaterally-applied changes are not given an
> opportunity to sneak in while another user has said record in a state
> of flux. I'll spare you the further gory details of this terrifying
> scheme for now, but suffice it to say we do not like it because it
> seems that we would end up re-inventing the wheel, given that the rdb
> is supposed to have various locking detection/tools already built into
> it.
Yes, this was fairly normally practice once upon a time. I remember using it
in 1978 on the first IBM 3790 deployment in the UK. This was to be a
"distributed application" that was to be "Networked" (Cutting edge stuff at
the time... We were given a very thick Assembler manual and told to learn
it. A week later we were writing applications, which had to be Assembled and
run on a mainframe because there was no hardware available yet :-)). There's
nothing wrong with date/timestamping rows on an RDB, even today, but not for
the reasons your Lead Analyst wants to do so. Nowadays it serves as an audit
trail, rather than a locking or rollback/recovery device.
You are absolutely correct in that your DBMS (SQL Server) can manage its own
transaction isolation, rollback and recovery. Perhaps the Lead Analyst needs
to do a quick course on modern Database Management?
>
> Here is a simple/fictitious representation of the type of code
> sequence samples that we are looking for...
>
> Typical LOW-VOLUME USER UPDATE module:
> 1. Open rdb
That would be a CONNECT...
> 2. EXEC SQL WHENEVER SQLERROR DO sql_error;
> 3. Accept record key from user
> 4. Read matching record w/ shared lock (presume REC-FOUND for this
> example)
Despite the ISAM terminology, you are simply requesting a row. Don't worry
too much about the locking; the advantage of a DBMS is that it takes much of
this concern off you, and, at this point it doesn't matter anyway.
> 5. Display fields on screen
> 6. Accept field updates from user
> 7. Edit field updates (presume EDIT-PASSED for this example)
> 8. BEGIN TRANSACTION (ONLY if it is a distributed transaction and will use
> MS Transact-SQL to access distributed servers)
> 9. Read record from table with exclusive lock
Get a row, with update intent.
> 10. Move new field values to table
> 11. Rewrite table record
That would be an UPDATE... :-)
> 12. COMMIT
> 13. END TRANSACTION (ONLY if it is a distributed transaction and will use
> MS Transact-SQL to access distributed servers)
> 14. Close rdb
No, we don't close the database; other people are using it... :-) Instead we
might DISCONNECT from it.
>
>
> Typical HIGH-VOLUME BATCH UPDATE module:
> 1. Open rdb
> 2. ~?~?~
> 3. ~?~?~
> 4. ~?~?~
>
In fact, you could use almost exactly the same algorithm you did above for
the transaction bit, but without the connection and disconnection, so....
1. establish a connection.
2. start a transaction. (ONLY if it is a distributed transaction and will
use MS Transact-SQL to access distributed servers)
3. read your batch input and get a key and data for the update.
These must be loaded into Host Variables in your WORKING-STORAGE SECTION
(See DECLARE in your SQL manual)
Set a count somewhere of the records you have read. You will use this to
issue a COMMIT after say, 500 updates.
4. issue an UPDATE something like this:
(Sample of COBOL with embedded SQL...)
PROCEDURE DIVISION.
...
EXEC SQL
UPDATE ourTable
SET dataColumn1 = :field-1 (from the batch record. Note that Host
Variables start with a special character which can
vary across
environments. Try using a colon...)
dataColumn2 = :field-2
dataColumn3 = :field-3
dataColumnN = :field-N
...
WHERE ourTableKey = :Batch-record-key
END-EXEC
if function REM (input-rec-count 500) = zero
EXEC SQL
COMMIT WORK (OR COMMIT TRANSACTION if you are running
distributed servers using Transact-SQL)
END-EXEC
(Start a new transaction at this point if you are accessing
distributed servers. If you are not, SQL Server automatically
assigns a transaction where one is needed and you don't need to worry about
it.)
end-if
...
5. When you have hit EOF on your batch file, do the final COMMIT and then
DISCONNECT.
>
> Perhaps there is a site somewhere that includes sql-related coding
> examples?
Most people are a bit cagey about publicising their code :-)
Try the following:
http://developer.mimer.com/interfaces/interface_5.htm
http://www.pdc.kth.se/doc/SP/manuals/db2-5.0/html/db2a0/db2a002.htm
> I appreciate in advance any input that anyone may have
> about how we should be approaching this data conversion effort.
Now THAT's an entirely different matter... If you are looking for free
strategic advice, what you get is probably worth the price...:-)
Having done a number of successful conversions from COBOL file system to
RDBMS, built tools to automatically analyse COBOL File Definitions and
generate RDB equivalents in third normal form with all repeating groups,
foreign keys, constraints and indexes carried over, and having worked with
RDB since the second IBM course on them in Reading, England, in 1983, I have
a nodding acquaintance with the problems you are facing.
(However, I have never loaded 60 million records to a database so I must
state that caveat up front...)
If you were to ask for my advice (and pay for it) I can tell you that I
could not, in all conscience, recommend what you are doing.
Given the stated environment (SQL Server) you are utilising a tiny fraction
of what is available to you. It's a bit like buying a Ferrari and never
getting out of first gear...
Embedded SQL is not the way to go.
Have a look at ADO.Net (this is not the same as ADO; it is light years
ahead). You would do much better embedding ADO.Net calls against your SQL
Server DB. This allows data and table adapters, automatic binding to
datasources, processing result sets with a single command, and manipulating
SETS of data rather than a row at a time.It is also makes MUCH less
connection demand on the server, so overall throughput is improved.)
Here's an overview:
http://www.developer.com/net/vb/article.php/10926_1540311_1
(Ironically, because it can employ Reader objects, this approach MAY use
OPEN, BEGIN... and CLOSE... :-))
I have not used it from COBOL (I use C#), but I see no reason why it
couldn't be called from COBOL as a normal COM server. I must have a go at
this when I get some time...:-)
However, given the realities of your current situation, embedded SQL is
probably what will happen.
If you need help with it, post here.
Good luck.
Pete.
DaveM
Your response was VERY helpful, and I am grateful to you for taking
the time and patience to put it together. We will check out the sites
you recommend, and I will pass along all of your suggestions and
examples to my team as well as management.
Also, please forgive me if I misspoke in my final para, as I would
never presume the right to ask anyone for the favor of writing me up
an entire detailed game plan on how we should carry out the whole
conversion project. The kind of information that I meant to ask for
is what you have indeed since given me, and I thank you!
Dave Miner
DaveM
> In article <1175626528.510733.311...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> DaveM <renfre...@xemaps.com> wrote:
> >We are using Micro Focus Net Express 4.0 and Microsoft SQL Server
> >2000. The concepts/examples we are seeking however can be more
> >generic, i.e., not necessarily shown within COBOL source code per
> >se.
>
> >Right now we have two realized problems, both of which appear to
> >stem from our mutual and still-thriving ignorance......
>
> >The first problem is as follows: We are having surprising
> >difficulty in our attempts to find working examples of SQL-
> >related code sequences for handling low-volume user-entered
> >updates vs large-volume batch updates.
>
> That's interesting... where have you looked for these, so that
> others here might not duplicate your efforts?
>
If I'd kept a log of every single place I've been to while seeking
this information and then posted it here, as you seem to be kindly
requesting now, I am afraid that my inquiry would have become entirely
too enormous for most folks to bother with. Lets just say that I have
looked everywhere, with the obvious exception of those places where
the answers I am looking for are actually being kept.
The gist of what I am currently seeking should exist mainly within the
minds of many of those who frequent this newsgroup, hence my inquiry.
Forgive me for not making it clearer, but I am not asking anyone to go
out on a google tour on my behalf; I am only asking for information
relevant to people's own real-world experiences such that we might
gain a better perspective about the options we are faced with.
> >The working examples we need can be represented as pseudo-
> >code and/or actual code - we don't really care which - we
> >just need something representative to work from. (See
> >fictitious example enclosed)
>
> I'll do that.
>
>
>
> >The second problem involves how to handle record locking issues
> >among multiple users. The lead analyst wants us to code logic
> >that requires maintenance of a date-time field in every record
> > - this date-time stamp would then be used for determining the
> >availability of a given record such that unilaterally-applied
> >changes are not given an opportunity to sneak in while another
> >user has said record in a state of flux.
>
> How interesting... this is a time-honored technique that I first
> heard described by someone who worked on one of the original
> airline reservation systems.
>
> Things have changed a bit since then... your lead analyst seems
> to want to apply techniques for indexed files to a database;
> this has, in my experience, usually resulted in disappointment
> for the system's users and those who maintain the code.
The handling of record (or I guess I should now say ROW) locking
conflicts, esp among multiple users, are supposed to be handled
primarily by functions that are internal to the rdb itself.
Regardless of how time-honored a given technique may be, it seems to
me that by going to the trouble of coding our own locking handler we
will only end up sidestepping what the rdb is designed to take care of
for us, and all in exchange for a manual (and inferior) version of
that capability.
This is rather like harnessing a team of mules up to a tractor to plow
the field. Sure, its possible, but we'd be foolishly wasting the very
reasons that we'd paid extra money to buy the damn tractor in the
first place.
> >I'll spare you the further gory details of this terrifying
> >scheme for now, but suffice it to say we do not like it because
> >it seems that we would end up re-inventing the wheel, given that
> >the rdb is supposed to have various locking detection/tools
> >already built into it.
>
> I am not sure about Microsoft SQL Server 2000 but I know that
> Oracle has some pretty good internals to avoid deadlocks; I
> suggest that someone dig into the appropriate manual and
> present the necessary pages to the lead analyst.
>
Deadlocks per se are not of particular concern to us, as these are
supposed to be automatically handled by the rdb. What we are trying
to learn about are the protocols of dealing with wait-locks, time-
outs, and prevention of unilateral changes etc.
>
>
>
>
> >Here is a simple/fictitious representation of the type of code
> >sequence samples that we are looking for...
>
> >Typical LOW-VOLUME USER UPDATE module:
> >1. Open rdb
> >2. EXEC SQL WHENEVER SQLERROR DO sql_error;
> >3. Accept record key from user
> >4. Read matching record w/ shared lock (presume REC-FOUND
> > for this example)
> >5. Display fields on screen
> >6. Accept field updates from user
> >7. Edit field updates (presume EDIT-PASSED for this example)
> >8. BEGIN TRANSACTION
> >9. Read record from table with exclusive lock
> >10. Move new field values to table
> >11. Rewrite table record
> >12. COMMIT
> >13. END TRANSACTION
> >14. Close rdb
>
> Hmmmmm... is there anyone on this particular job who knows
> the difference between a 'record' and a 'row'?
Yes, we do. Pseudo-code, at least within our organization, is written
for the purpose of communicating ideas and logic flow. Given that you
figured out that my usage of 'record' should have instead been
expressed as 'row', then this pseudo-code has apparently accomplished
its purpose. :)
In any case, point taken.
>
> >Typical HIGH-VOLUME BATCH UPDATE module:
> >1. Open rdb
> >2. ~?~?~
> >3. ~?~?~
> >4. ~?~?~
>
> 2. Do a bunch of stuff.
> 3. Close rdb
> 4. Get promoted before this comes back to fasten its teeth
> in one's gluteals.
>
>
>
> >Perhaps there is a site somewhere that includes sql-related
> > coding examples? I appreciate in advance any input that
> > anyone may have about how we should be approaching this
> > data conversion effort.
>
> My suggestion is that you find people who know what they are
> doing and pay them a lot of money to do it while you train the
> on-site staff to deal with the new technology.
>
> DD
Your final suggestion is excellent but I am afraid it is not
practicable because I do not control any of the purse strings. We
have no choice but to work with this analyst, along with a rather
tight-fisted management team who is unwilling to spring for the cost
of formal training. Complaints I have aplenty, of course, but that
won't resolve anything. The only realistic and proactive plan we have
at this point is to continue doing what we are doing, namely, to
research usenet groups and knowledge bases, to ask questions, read
manuals, ask more questions, setup & run tests, analyze results,
borrow or buy additional manuals, and humbly beg somebody in the real
world to lead us to some working examples.
Thank you for your help.
Dave Miner
tlea...@gmail.com
>
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>
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>
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Dave
First let me say that I have not used Net Express since I got a copy
of the beta release of 4.0 some years ago. I have been using since
Fujitsu then. So the examples below are in Cobol.Net. The 1st program
is written in Cobol.net and the second is in VB.Net. Both programs do
roughly the same thing, they dump a sql table to a text file.
Depending on what your requirements are for the High Volume Batch
Update I would recommend that you read Microsoft's book-on-line (BOL)
the sections relating to Bulk Copy, Bulk Insert, DTS, and odbc.
Good Luck
Tom
IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.
PROGRAM-ID. Program1 AS "ADO_SQL_Generator.Program1".
ENVIRONMENT DIVISION.
CONFIGURATION SECTION.
REPOSITORY.
CLASS SQLCONNECTION AS "System.Data.SqlClient.SqlConnection"
CLASS SQLDATAREADER AS "System.Data.SqlClient.SqlDataReader"
CLASS SQLCOMMAND AS "System.Data.SqlClient.SqlCommand"
CLASS SQLDATETIME2 AS "System.Data.SqlTypes.SqlDateTime"
CLASS SQLDATETIME AS "System.DateTime".
INPUT-OUTPUT SECTION.
FILE-CONTROL.
SELECT SQL-OUT-FILE
ASSIGN TO "c:\sqlinsrt.txt"
ORGANIZATION IS LINE SEQUENTIAL.
DATA DIVISION.
FILE SECTION.
FD SQL-OUT-FILE
RECORD IS VARYING IN SIZE FROM 10 TO 4000
DEPENDING ON BSUB.
01 SQL-OUT-REC.
05 SOR-CHAR PIC x
OCCURS 10 TO 4000 TIMES DEPENDING ON BSUB.
WORKING-STORAGE SECTION.
01 CONNECTIONOBJ OBJECT REFERENCE SQLCONNECTION.
01 DATAREADEROBJ OBJECT REFERENCE SQLDATAREADER.
01 SQLCOMMANDOBJ OBJECT REFERENCE SQLCOMMAND.
01 DATAREADEROBJ2 OBJECT REFERENCE SQLDATAREADER.
01 SQLCOMMANDOBJ2 OBJECT REFERENCE SQLCOMMAND.
01 MY-BOOLEAN PIC 1 USAGE BIT VALUE B"1".
01 MY-BOOLEAN2 PIC 1 USAGE BIT VALUE B"0".
01 MY-STRING PIC X(455) VALUE SPACES.
* 111111111122222222223333333333444444444455555555556
* 123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
01 SQL-COLUMNS.
05 FILLER PIC X(41) VALUE
"select A.NAME, B.NAME, C.NAME, B.LENGTH, ".
05 FILLER PIC X(42) VALUE
"B.PREC,B.SCALE,B.ISCOMPUTED, B.ISNULLABLE ".
05 FILLER PIC X(18) VALUE
"FROM SYSOBJECTS A ".
05 FILLER PIC X(39) VALUE
"INNER JOIN SYSCOLUMNS B ON A.ID = B.ID ".
05 FILLER PIC X(43) VALUE
"INNER JOIN SYSTYPES C ON B.XTYPE = C.XTYPE ".
05 FILLER PIC X(20) VALUE
"WHERE A.XTYPE = 'U' ".
05 FILLER PIC X(24) VALUE
"AND B.AUTOVAL IS NULL ".
05 FILLER PIC X(14) VALUE
"and a.nAME = '".
05 SC-TABLE-NAME PIC X(30) VALUE spaces.
05 FILLER PIC X(29) VALUE
"' order bY A.NAME, B.COLID ".
01 STV-SUB PIC 9(4) VALUE 0.
01 SYS-TABLE-VALUES.
05 STV-OCC OCCURS 1000 TIMES.
10 STV-TABLE PIC X(20).
10 STV-COLUMN PIC X(50).
10 STV-DATA-TYPE PIC X(20).
10 STV-LENGTH PIC S9(4) USAGE COMP-5.
10 STV-PREC PIC S9(4) USAGE COMP-5.
10 STV-SCALE PIC S9(9) USAGE COMP-5.
10 STV-ISCOMP PIC S9(9) USAGE COMP-5.
10 STV-ISNULL PIC S9(9) USAGE COMP-5.
01 BUILD-NEW-SELECT PIC X(5000) VALUE SPACES.
01 BUILD-OUT-LINE PIC X(5000) VALUE SPACES.
01 CHAR-DATA PIC X(5000) VALUE SPACES.
01 ASUB PIC 9(4) VALUE 0.
01 BSUB PIC 9(4) VALUE 0.
01 XSUB PIC 9(4) VALUE 0.
01 SAVEB PIC 9(4) VALUE 0.
01 INT8-DATA USAGE BINARY-CHAR UNSIGNED.
01 INT8-FORMAT PIC ----9.
01 INT16-DATA PIC S9(4) USAGE COMP-5.
01 INT16-FORMAT PIC -----9.
01 INT32-DATA PIC S9(9) USAGE COMP-5.
01 INT32-FORMAT PIC ---------9.
01 DATE-DATA OBJECT REFERENCE SQLDATETIME.
01 DATE-DATA2 OBJECT REFERENCE SQLDATETIME2.
01 DATE-FORMAT PIC X(23).
01 DEC0-DATA PIC S9(18) USAGE COMP-5.
01 DEC0-FORMAT PIC ------------------9.
01 DEC1-DATA PIC S9(17)V9(1) USAGE COMP-5.
01 DEC1-FORMAT PIC ------------------.9.
01 DEC2-DATA PIC S9(16)V9(2) USAGE COMP-5.
01 DEC2-FORMAT PIC -----------------.99.
01 DEC3-DATA PIC S9(15)V9(3) USAGE COMP-5.
01 DEC3-FORMAT PIC ----------------.999.
01 DEC4-DATA PIC S9(14)V9(4) USAGE COMP-5.
01 DEC4-FORMAT PIC ---------------.9999.
01 DEC5-DATA PIC S9(13)V9(5) USAGE COMP-5.
01 DEC5-FORMAT PIC --------------.99999.
01 DEC6-DATA PIC S9(12)V9(6) USAGE COMP-5.
01 DEC6-FORMAT PIC -------------.999999.
01 LINE-CTR PIC 99 VALUE 1.
01 WRITE-COUNT PIC 9(8) VALUE 0.
01 WRITE-COUNTD PIC ZZ,ZZZ,ZZ9.
01 WRITE-COUNT2 PIC 9(5) VALUE 0.
01 MY-COUNT PIC 9(5) VALUE 0.
01 JUNK PIC X VALUE SPACE.
01 SERVER-NAME PIC X(30) VALUE SPACES.
01 DATABASE-NAME PIC X(30) VALUE SPACES.
PROCEDURE DIVISION.
GET-SERVER-CONNECTION.
DISPLAY "Enter Server Name or (LOCAL)".
ACCEPT SERVER-NAME FROM CONSOLE.
MOVE "SERVER=" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE
MOVE 1 TO BSUB.
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES ADD 1 TO BSUB END-
PERFORM.
MOVE SERVER-NAME TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES ADD 1 TO BSUB END-
PERFORM.
MOVE ";TRUSTED_CONNECTION=YES;DATABASE=" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES ADD 1 TO BSUB END-
PERFORM.
DISPLAY "Enter DataBase Name ie 001".
ACCEPT DATABASE-NAME FROM CONSOLE.
MOVE DATABASE-NAME TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
INVOKE SQLCONNECTION "NEW" USING BUILD-OUT-LINE RETURNING
CONNECTIONOBJ.
INVOKE CONNECTIONOBJ "Open".
DISPLAY "Enter Table Name".
ACCEPT SC-TABLE-NAME FROM CONSOLE.
MOVE SQL-COLUMNS TO MY-STRING.
INVOKE SQLCOMMAND "NEW" USING MY-STRING CONNECTIONOBJ
RETURNING
SQLCOMMANDOBJ.
INVOKE SQLCOMMANDOBJ "ExecuteReader" RETURNING DATAREADEROBJ.
MOVE B"1" TO MY-BOOLEAN.
MOVE 0 TO MY-COUNT.
MOVE 1 TO STV-SUB.
MOVE SPACES TO SYS-TABLE-VALUES.
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "Read" RETURNING MY-BOOLEAN.
PERFORM WITH TEST BEFORE UNTIL MY-BOOLEAN NOT = B"1"
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "GetString" USING 0 RETURNING STV-
TABLE(STV-SUB)
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "GetString" USING 1 RETURNING STV-
COLUMN(STV-SUB)
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "GetString" USING 2 RETURNING STV-DATA-
TYPE(STV-SUB)
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "GetInt16" USING 3 RETURNING STV-
LENGTH(STV-SUB)
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "GetInt16" USING 4 RETURNING STV-
PREC(STV-SUB)
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "IsDBNull" USING 5 RETURNING MY-
BOOLEAN2
MOVE 0 TO STV-SCALE(STV-SUB)
IF MY-BOOLEAN2 = B"0"
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "GetInt32" USING 5 RETURNING STV-
SCALE(STV-SUB)
END-IF
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "GetInt32" USING 6 RETURNING STV-
ISCOMP(STV-SUB)
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "GetInt32" USING 7 RETURNING STV-
ISNULL(STV-SUB)
ADD 1 TO STV-SUB
ADD 1 TO MY-COUNT
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "Read" RETURNING MY-BOOLEAN
END-PERFORM.
MOVE "Select " TO BUILD-NEW-SELECT.
MOVE 1 TO STV-SUB.
MOVE 8 TO ASUB.
BUILD-SQL-LOOP.
IF STV-COLUMN(STV-SUB) NOT = SPACES
IF STV-SUB NOT = 1
MOVE "," TO BUILD-NEW-SELECT(ASUB:)
ADD 1 TO ASUB
end-if
MOVE STV-COLUMN(STV-SUB) TO BUILD-NEW-SELECT(ASUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-NEW-SELECT(ASUB:) = spaces
ADD 1 TO ASUB
END-PERFORM.
ADD 1 TO STV-SUB.
IF STV-SUB < 1000
GO TO BUILD-SQL-LOOP.
ADD 1 TO ASUB.
MOVE 1 TO BSUB.
MOVE "INSERT INTO" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE
MOVE SC-TABLE-NAME TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(13:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-PERFORM.
MOVE "(" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
ADD 1 TO BSUB.
MOVE BUILD-NEW-SELECT(8:) TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-PERFORM.
MOVE ") VALUES (" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-PERFORM.
MOVE BSUB TO SAVEB.
MOVE "from" TO BUILD-NEW-SELECT(ASUB:)
ADD 5 TO ASUB.
MOVE SC-TABLE-NAME TO BUILD-NEW-SELECT(ASUB:)
OPEN OUTPUT SQL-OUT-FILE.
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ "Close".
INVOKE SQLCOMMAND "NEW" USING BUILD-NEW-SELECT CONNECTIONOBJ
RETURNING SQLCOMMANDOBJ2.
INVOKE SQLCOMMANDOBJ2 "ExecuteReader" RETURNING DATAREADEROBJ2.
MOVE B"1" TO MY-BOOLEAN.
MOVE 0 TO MY-COUNT.
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "Read" RETURNING MY-BOOLEAN.
PERFORM WITH TEST BEFORE UNTIL MY-BOOLEAN NOT = B"1"
PERFORM PROCESS-DATA-RECORD
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "Read" RETURNING MY-BOOLEAN
END-PERFORM.
IF LINE-CTR NOT = 1
MOVE 1 TO LINE-CTR
MOVE "go" TO SQL-OUT-REC
WRITE SQL-OUT-REC.
INVOKE CONNECTIONOBJ "Close".
DISPLAY "Hit Enter to Exit".
ACCEPT JUNK FROM CONSOLE.
CLOSE SQL-OUT-FILE.
EXIT PROGRAM.
PROCESS-DATA-RECORD.
MOVE 1 TO STV-SUB
MOVE SAVEB TO BSUB
MOVE SPACES TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM READ-VARIABLE-DATA
UNTIL (STV-COLUMN(STV-SUB) = SPACES).
MOVE ")" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
MOVE BUILD-OUT-LINE TO SQL-OUT-REC.
WRITE SQL-OUT-REC.
ADD 1 TO LINE-CTR.
IF LINE-CTR > 10
MOVE 1 TO line-ctr
MOVE "go" TO SQL-OUT-REC
WRITE SQL-OUT-REC.
ADD 1 TO WRITE-COUNT.
ADD 1 TO WRITE-COUNT2.
IF WRITE-COUNT2 > 199
MOVE WRITE-COUNT TO WRITE-COUNTD
DISPLAY "Write Record " WRITE-COUNTD
MOVE 0 TO WRITE-COUNT2.
READ-VARIABLE-DATA.
MOVE B"0" TO MY-BOOLEAN2.
COMPUTE ASUB = STV-SUB - 1
MOVE 1 TO XSUB.
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "IsDBNull" USING ASUB RETURNING MY-
BOOLEAN2
IF STV-COLUMN(STV-SUB) NOT = SPACES
IF STV-SUB NOT = 1
MOVE "," TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
ADD 1 TO BSUB.
IF MY-BOOLEAN2 = B"1"
MOVE "NULL" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-PERFORM
ELSE
IF STV-DATA-TYPE(STV-SUB) = "char"
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetString" USING ASUB RETURNING CHAR-
DATA
MOVE "'" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
ADD 1 TO BSUB
MOVE CHAR-DATA TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
IF CHAR-DATA = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-IF
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-PERFORM
MOVE "'" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
ADD 1 TO BSUB
ELSE
IF STV-DATA-TYPE(STV-SUB) = "tinyint"
MOVE 0 TO INT8-DATA
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetByte" USING ASUB RETURNING INT8-
DATA
MOVE INT8-DATA TO INT8-FORMAT
MOVE INT8-FORMAT TO CHAR-DATA
INSPECT CHAR-DATA TALLYING XSUB FOR LEADING " "
MOVE CHAR-DATA(XSUB:) TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-PERFORM
ELSE
IF STV-DATA-TYPE(STV-SUB) = "smallint"
MOVE 0 TO INT16-DATA
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetInt16" USING ASUB RETURNING INT16-
DATA
MOVE INT16-DATA TO INT16-FORMAT
MOVE INT16-FORMAT TO CHAR-DATA
INSPECT CHAR-DATA TALLYING XSUB FOR LEADING " "
MOVE CHAR-DATA(XSUB:) TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-PERFORM
ELSE
IF STV-DATA-TYPE(STV-SUB) = "int"
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetInt32" USING ASUB RETURNING INT32-
DATA
MOVE INT32-DATA TO INT32-FORMAT
MOVE INT32-FORMAT TO CHAR-DATA
INSPECT CHAR-DATA TALLYING XSUB FOR LEADING " "
MOVE CHAR-DATA(XSUB:) TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-PERFORM
ELSE
IF STV-DATA-TYPE(STV-SUB) = "datetime"
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetDateTime" USING ASUB RETURNING DATE-
DATA
INVOKE DATE-DATA "ToString" RETURNING DATE-FORMAT
MOVE DATE-FORMAT TO CHAR-DATA
MOVE "'" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
ADD 1 TO BSUB
INSPECT CHAR-DATA TALLYING XSUB FOR LEADING " "
MOVE CHAR-DATA(XSUB:) TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-PERFORM
MOVE "'" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
ADD 1 TO BSUB
ELSE
IF STV-DATA-TYPE(STV-SUB) = "decimal"
IF STV-SCALE(STV-SUB) = 0
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetDecimal" USING ASUB RETURNING
DEC0-DATA
MOVE DEC0-DATA TO DEC0-FORMAT
MOVE DEC0-FORMAT TO CHAR-DATA
END-IF
IF STV-SCALE(STV-SUB) = 1
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetDecimal" USING ASUB RETURNING
DEC1-DATA
MOVE DEC1-DATA TO DEC1-FORMAT
MOVE DEC1-FORMAT TO CHAR-DATA
END-IF
IF STV-SCALE(STV-SUB) = 2
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetDecimal" USING ASUB RETURNING
DEC2-DATA
MOVE DEC2-DATA TO DEC2-FORMAT
MOVE DEC2-FORMAT TO CHAR-DATA
END-IF
IF STV-SCALE(STV-SUB) = 3
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetDecimal" USING ASUB RETURNING
DEC3-DATA
MOVE DEC3-DATA TO DEC3-FORMAT
MOVE DEC3-FORMAT TO CHAR-DATA
END-IF
IF STV-SCALE(STV-SUB) = 4
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetDecimal" USING ASUB RETURNING
DEC4-DATA
MOVE DEC4-DATA TO DEC4-FORMAT
MOVE DEC4-FORMAT TO CHAR-DATA
END-IF
IF STV-SCALE(STV-SUB) = 5
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetDecimal" USING ASUB RETURNING
DEC5-DATA
MOVE DEC5-DATA TO DEC5-FORMAT
MOVE DEC5-FORMAT TO CHAR-DATA
END-IF
IF STV-SCALE(STV-SUB) = 6
INVOKE DATAREADEROBJ2 "GetDecimal" USING ASUB RETURNING
DEC6-DATA
MOVE DEC6-DATA TO DEC6-FORMAT
MOVE DEC6-FORMAT TO CHAR-DATA
END-IF
INSPECT CHAR-DATA TALLYING XSUB FOR LEADING " "
MOVE CHAR-DATA(XSUB:) TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-PERFORM
ELSE
MOVE "'" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
ADD 1 TO BSUB
MOVE "data-type-not-processed" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
PERFORM UNTIL BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:) = SPACES
ADD 1 TO BSUB
END-PERFORM
MOVE "'" TO BUILD-OUT-LINE(BSUB:)
ADD 1 TO BSUB.
ADD 1 TO STV-SUB.
END PROGRAM PROGRAM1.
'= TABLE_EXPORT - This program will accept a SQL table name and export
the
'= information to a text file.
Module CreateInserts
Sub Main()
Dim oFile As System.IO.File
Dim oWrite As System.IO.StreamWriter
Dim sSql As String
Dim sSqlNew As String
Dim sSqlFrom As String
Dim sSqlInsert As String
Dim MyData As SqlClient.SqlDataReader
Dim bReadFlag As Boolean
Dim iCnt As Integer
Dim iCntMax As Integer
Dim sFileName(500) As String
Dim sFieldName(500) As String
Dim scharName(500) As String
Dim iLength(500) As Integer
Dim iPerc(500) As Integer
Dim iScale(500) As Integer
Dim iIsComputed(500) As Integer
Dim iIsNullable(500) As Integer
Console.WriteLine("Enter File Name")
Dim InputName As String = Console.ReadLine
'= The output file will be stored in "c:\labelprocess\" with
the prefix
'= EXPORT and the suffix SQL.
'=
Dim OutputName As String = "c:\labelprocess\EXPORT "
OutputName = OutputName + InputName + ".SQL"
oWrite = oFile.CreateText(OutputName)
sSql = "select A.NAME, B.NAME, C.NAME, B.LENGTH,
B.PREC,B.SCALE,B.AUTOVAL, B.ISNULLABLE " & _
" FROM SYSOBJECTS A " & _
" INNER JOIN SYSCOLUMNS B ON A.ID = B.ID " & _
" INNER JOIN SYSTYPES C ON B.XTYPE = C.XTYPE " & _
"WHERE A.XTYPE = 'U' " & _
"and a.nAME = '" + InputName + "' " & _
"and c.name <> 'sysname' " & _
"order bY A.NAME, B.COLID "
MyData = File_System.GetDataReader(sSql)
iCnt = 0
'= First the CREATE TABLE statements are written.
If MyData.HasRows Then
sSqlNew = "IF not exists (SELECT * FROM dbo.sysobjects
where id = object_id(N'[dbo].[" + InputName + "]') and
OBJECTPROPERTY(id, N'IsUserTable') = 1) "
oWrite.WriteLine(sSqlNew)
sSqlNew = " CREATE TABLE [dbo].[" + InputName + "] ( "
oWrite.WriteLine(sSqlNew)
sSqlNew = " "
bReadFlag = MyData.Read()
Do While bReadFlag
If MyData.IsDBNull(1) Then sSqlNew = " " Else sSqlNew
= sSqlNew + MyData.GetString(1) + " " 'sFieldName(iCnt) =
MyData.GetString(1)
If MyData.IsDBNull(2) Then sSqlNew = " " Else sSqlNew
= sSqlNew + MyData.GetString(2) + " " 'scharName(iCnt) =
MyData.GetString(2)
If MyData.GetString(2).ToLower = "char" _
Or MyData.GetString(2).ToLower = "varchar" _
Or MyData.GetString(2).ToLower = "nchar" _
Or MyData.GetString(2).ToLower = "nvarchar" _
Or MyData.GetString(2).ToLower = "text" _
Or MyData.GetString(2).ToLower = "ntext" Then
If MyData.IsDBNull(3) Then sSqlNew = sSqlNew +
"( )" Else sSqlNew = sSqlNew + "(" + MyData.GetInt16(3).ToString + ")"
' iLength(iCnt) = MyData.GetInt16(3)
ElseIf MyData.GetString(2).ToLower = "decimal" Or
MyData.GetString(2).ToLower = "numeric" Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + "("
If MyData.IsDBNull(4) Then sSqlNew = sSqlNew + "0"
Else sSqlNew = sSqlNew + MyData.GetInt16(4).ToString
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + ","
If MyData.IsDBNull(5) Then sSqlNew = sSqlNew + "0"
Else sSqlNew = sSqlNew + MyData.GetInt32(5).ToString
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + ") "
End If
If Not MyData.IsDBNull(6) Then sSqlNew = sSqlNew + "
Identity (1,1) "
If Not MyData.IsDBNull(7) Then
If MyData.GetInt32(7) = 0 Then sSqlNew = sSqlNew +
" not null"
Else
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + " null"
End If
oWrite.WriteLine(sSqlNew)
sSqlNew = ","
bReadFlag = MyData.Read()
Loop
oWrite.WriteLine(")")
oWrite.WriteLine(" ")
oWrite.WriteLine("GO")
oWrite.WriteLine(" ")
oWrite.WriteLine(" ")
Else
MsgBox("Invalid Table Name Entered - Program Ending")
oWrite.WriteLine("Invalid Table Name Entered - Program
Ending")
GoTo endsub
End If
MyData.Close()
sSql = "select A.NAME, B.NAME, C.NAME, B.LENGTH,
B.PREC,B.SCALE,B.ISCOMPUTED, B.ISNULLABLE " & _
" FROM SYSOBJECTS A " & _
" INNER JOIN SYSCOLUMNS B ON A.ID = B.ID " & _
" INNER JOIN SYSTYPES C ON B.XTYPE = C.XTYPE " & _
"WHERE A.XTYPE = 'U' AND B.AUTOVAL IS NULL " & _
"and a.nAME = '" + InputName + "' " & _
"and c.name <> 'sysname' " & _
"order bY A.NAME, B.COLID "
MyData = File_System.GetDataReader(sSql)
iCnt = 0
'= Then each data record from the table is read and the data
is used to create
'= insert statements. The statements are in the form
'= insert into <table name> (field names) values (data
values).
sSqlNew = "Select "
sSqlInsert = "insert into "
If MyData.HasRows Then
bReadFlag = MyData.Read()
Do While bReadFlag And iCnt <= 500
If MyData.IsDBNull(0) Then sFileName(iCnt) = " " Else
sFileName(iCnt) = MyData.GetString(0)
If MyData.IsDBNull(1) Then sFieldName(iCnt) = " " Else
sFieldName(iCnt) = MyData.GetString(1)
If MyData.IsDBNull(2) Then scharName(iCnt) = " " Else
scharName(iCnt) = MyData.GetString(2)
If MyData.IsDBNull(3) Then iLength(iCnt) = 0 Else
iLength(iCnt) = MyData.GetInt16(3)
If MyData.IsDBNull(4) Then iPerc(iCnt) = 0 Else
iPerc(iCnt) = MyData.GetInt16(4)
If MyData.IsDBNull(5) Then iScale(iCnt) = 0 Else
iScale(iCnt) = MyData.GetInt32(5)
If MyData.IsDBNull(6) Then iIsComputed(iCnt) = 0 Else
iIsComputed(iCnt) = MyData.GetInt32(6)
If MyData.IsDBNull(7) Then iIsNullable(iCnt) = 0 Else
iIsNullable(iCnt) = MyData.GetInt32(7)
If iCnt <> 0 Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + ", "
sSqlInsert = sSqlInsert + ", "
Else
sSqlInsert = "Insert Into " + sFileName(iCnt) +
"("
End If
sSqlFrom = sFileName(iCnt)
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + sFieldName(iCnt)
sSqlInsert = sSqlInsert + sFieldName(iCnt)
iCnt = iCnt + 1
bReadFlag = MyData.Read()
Loop
Else
MsgBox("Invalid Table Name Entered - Program Ending")
oWrite.WriteLine("Invalid Table Name Entered - Program
Ending")
GoTo endsub
End If
MyData.Close()
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + " from " + sSqlFrom
sSqlInsert = sSqlInsert + ") values ("
MyData = File_System.GetDataReader(sSqlNew)
iCntMax = iCnt - 1
iCnt = 0
sSqlNew = sSqlInsert
If MyData.HasRows Then
bReadFlag = MyData.Read()
Do While bReadFlag
sSqlNew = sSqlInsert
For iCnt = 0 To iCntMax
If iCnt <> 0 Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + ", "
End If
If MyData.IsDBNull(iCnt) Then
If iIsNullable(iCnt) = 1 Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + "null"
Else
If MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"char" _
Or MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"varchar" _
Or MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"nchar" _
Or MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"nvarchar" _
Or MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"text" _
Or MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"ntext" Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + " "
Else
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + "0"
End If
End If
Else
If MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"char" _
Or MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"varchar" _
Or MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"nchar" _
Or MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"nvarchar" _
Or MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"text" _
Or MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"ntext" Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + "'" +
MyData.GetString(iCnt).ToString.TrimEnd(" ")
If
MyData.GetString(iCnt).ToString.TrimEnd(" ") = "" Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + " '"
Else
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + "'"
End If
ElseIf MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"tinyint" Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew +
MyData.GetByte(iCnt).ToString
ElseIf MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"smallint" Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew +
MyData.GetInt16(iCnt).ToString
ElseIf MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"int" Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew +
MyData.GetInt32(iCnt).ToString
ElseIf MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"datetime" Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + "'" +
MyData.GetDateTime(iCnt).ToString + "'"
ElseIf MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"decimal" _
Or MyData.GetDataTypeName(iCnt).ToLower =
"numeric" Then
sSqlNew = sSqlNew +
MyData.GetDecimal(iCnt).ToString
Else
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + " "
End If
End If
Next iCnt
sSqlNew = sSqlNew + ")"
oWrite.WriteLine(sSqlNew)
bReadFlag = MyData.Read()
Loop
End If
MyData.Close()
oWrite.WriteLine(" ")
oWrite.WriteLine("GO")
oWrite.WriteLine(" ")
sSql = "select C.TEXT from sysobjects A " & _
" INNER JOIN SYSOBJECTS B ON A.ID=B.PARENT_OBJ " & _
" INNER JOIN SYSCOMMENTS C ON B.ID=C.ID" & _
" where A.NAME = '" + InputName + "'"
MyData = File_System.GetDataReader(sSql)
If MyData.HasRows Then
bReadFlag = MyData.Read()
Do While bReadFlag
sSqlNew = " "
If MyData.IsDBNull(0) Then sSqlNew = " " Else sSqlNew
= MyData.GetString(0)
oWrite.WriteLine(sSqlNew)
oWrite.WriteLine(" ")
oWrite.WriteLine("GO")
oWrite.WriteLine(" ")
bReadFlag = MyData.Read()
Loop
End If
MyData.Close()
'= Last the SQL statements to create the index keys are
created
sSql = " select o.name,i.name, kn.name, " & _
" case " & _
" when i.indid = 1 then 'Clustered' " & _
" else ' ' " & _
" end, " & _
" k.keyno " & _
" from sysindexkeys k " & _
" inner join sysindexes I ON k.id = i.id and
k.indid=i.indid " & _
" INNER JOIN syscolumns kn ON I.id = kn.id and
k.colid=kn.colid " & _
" INNER JOIN sysobjects O ON I.id = o.id " & _
" where " & _
" o.name = '" + InputName + "' and " & _
" I.indid > 0 and I.indid < 255 and " & _
" (INDEXPROPERTY(I.id, i.name, N'IsStatistics')
<> 1) and " & _
" (INDEXPROPERTY(I.id, i.name,
N'IsAutoStatistics') <> 1) and " & _
" (INDEXPROPERTY(I.id, i.name,
N'IsHypothetical') <> 1) " & _
" and o.type = 'U' " & _
" order by i.name, k.keyno, k.colid "
MyData = File_System.GetDataReader(sSql)
Dim sLastKey As String = " "
Dim sLastFileName As String = " "
Dim sLastKeyName As String = " "
Dim sLastFieldName As String = " "
Dim sLastClustered As String = " "
If MyData.HasRows Then
bReadFlag = MyData.Read()
Do While bReadFlag
sSqlNew = " "
If MyData.IsDBNull(0) Then sLastFileName = " " Else
sLastFileName = MyData.GetString(0)
If MyData.IsDBNull(1) Then sLastKeyName = " " Else
sLastKeyName = MyData.GetString(1)
If MyData.IsDBNull(2) Then sLastFieldName = " " Else
sLastFieldName = MyData.GetString(2)
If MyData.IsDBNull(3) Then sLastClustered = " " Else
sLastClustered = MyData.GetString(3)
If sLastKey = sLastKeyName Then
sSqlNew = ",[" + sLastFieldName + "]"
oWrite.WriteLine(sSqlNew)
Else
If sLastKey <> " " Then
oWrite.WriteLine(")")
oWrite.WriteLine("GO")
oWrite.WriteLine(" ")
End If
sSqlNew = " CREATE UNIQUE " + sLastClustered + "
INDEX " + sLastKeyName + " ON " + sLastFileName
oWrite.WriteLine(sSqlNew)
oWrite.WriteLine("(")
sSqlNew = "[" + sLastFieldName + "]"
oWrite.WriteLine(sSqlNew)
End If
sLastKey = sLastKeyName
bReadFlag = MyData.Read()
Loop
oWrite.WriteLine(")")
oWrite.WriteLine("GO")
oWrite.WriteLine(" ")
End If
MyData.Close()
EndSub:
oWrite.Close()
End Sub
'=
End Module
James J. Gavan
<snip>
So you have gone searching David, but did your search take the following
into account :-
- Google Search, enter with the hyphen, "SQL-Examples" - will give you
54K hits
- The N/E V4.0 on-line book regarding SQL - Database Access
http://supportline.microfocus.com/supportline/documentation/books/nx40/nx40indx.htm
- From the IDE top Menu Bar ----> Tools ----> Open ESQL Assistant,
which lets you model SQL queries and run them, and get results, WITHOUT
compiling. Once your test works, then you can copy/paste the proven SQL
statement into a COBOL program and compile. (At first sight this tool
looks complicated, but it isn't. Having set up a dummy DB table, have
the patience to read through the text and then start experimenting with
ESQL Assistant - you will be pleasantly surprised).
- Last and by no means least - sign up for the free Micro Focus Forum.
Post under Net Express, ensuring "SQL" appears in your message title -
and you should get help from an M/F lady specializing in DB support.
Regardless of the above, it will be worth your while to get a paperback
'How to ...." on DBs and SQL.
Jimmy
Pete Dashwood
> Pete,
>
> Your response was VERY helpful, and I am grateful to you for taking
> the time and patience to put it together. We will check out the sites
> you recommend, and I will pass along all of your suggestions and
> examples to my team as well as management.
>
> Also, please forgive me if I misspoke in my final para, as I would
> never presume the right to ask anyone for the favor of writing me up
> an entire detailed game plan on how we should carry out the whole
> conversion project.
Nothing to forgive... :-) I understood what you were requesting. You just
gave me an opportunity to point out that the conventional wisdom to use
embedded SQL is not necessarily the best solution. A whole raft of new
techniques for data access and manipulation are starting to filter through
to the mainstream and the next couple of years will see some major changes
in the way we access data, particularly on PC platforms. By advising the use
of ADO.Net I am ensuring you at least are on the playing field for this
stuff.
SQL Server is a good choice, although I don't know of any current RDBMS that
are actually "bad". DB2, Ingres, Oracle, and even MySQL (which is free; your
management should love that :-)) I have found to be completely adequate
systems. I have one system that uses MySQL and SQLServer together and it all
works fine. (It evolved that way... when I first started building it I
couldn't afford SQL Server :-) Later, I added some components that used SQL
Server and thought... I'll get round to "unifying" it some time... That was
four years ago... :-))
The kind of information that I meant to ask for
> is what you have indeed since given me, and I thank you!
>
> Dave Miner
>
Thanks for the acknowledgement (You'd be surprised how many people here
never even reply or let us know whether what was posted was useful...).
I imagine you have completed the conversion of your ISAM data structures to
Databases, and are now seeking to load them. In case you haven't, I have a
tool I wrote some years back that can automate that process. (ISAM2RDB). You
feed it your ISAM COBOL definition (Source code) and it creates a Relational
Database in third normal form. It builds linked tables for repeating groups
(COBOL OCCURS) and also copes with REDEFINES in the COBOL source.
I also have a Declaration Generator tool I wrote that will analyse a table
on a RDB and generate a COBOL record definition for interfacing to it. This
is the same facility provided by DECLGEN in IBM mainframe environments. It
actually can go one step further than generating a COPY book to include in
your COBOL, by also generating a COBOL access module that can mainatain the
table (INSERT, UPDATE, SELECT *, and DELETE) so that programmers with no
knowledge of SQL can still access and update the database, but are shielded
from the details. The source code generated is COBOL with embedded SQL, and
can be useful as a learning aid while people are learning SQL.
Given that your management are not prepared to spend money on training
(which SHOULD be their top priority), it is highly unlikely they'll spend
any on tools :-), however, as I wrote these things many years ago when first
looking at converting to RDBMS, and as I am moving away from Embedded SQL
(ESQL) the value of these tools to me now is pretty low. If you are
interested, I can let you have a free demo... send me some COBOL ISAM
definitions and I'll return you an ACCESS DB generated by the tools (this is
easily exportable to SQL Server, but takes less space for mailing.)
I have some stuff going on at the moment that is occupying my time and
effort but I hope within the next month or so to have a Web site up that
will offer certain facilities as a Web Service. (Now that I've cracked
getting COBOL COM and DCOM+ components to run as a Web Service... :-)). I
guess I could put these tools up there too, and people could then use them
remotely on an "as needed" basis... or maybe I'll just take a break :-)
Pete.
docd...@panix.com
DaveM <renf...@xemaps.com> wrote:
>On Apr 3, 9:13 pm, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>> In article <1175626528.510733.311...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> DaveM <renfre...@xemaps.com> wrote:
>> >We are using Micro Focus Net Express 4.0 and Microsoft SQL Server
>> >2000. The concepts/examples we are seeking however can be more
>> >generic, i.e., not necessarily shown within COBOL source code per
>> >se.
>>
>> >Right now we have two realized problems, both of which appear to
>> >stem from our mutual and still-thriving ignorance......
>>
>> >The first problem is as follows: We are having surprising
>> >difficulty in our attempts to find working examples of SQL-
>> >related code sequences for handling low-volume user-entered
>> >updates vs large-volume batch updates.
>>
>> That's interesting... where have you looked for these, so that
>> others here might not duplicate your efforts?
>>
>
>If I'd kept a log of every single place I've been to while seeking
>this information and then posted it here, as you seem to be kindly
>requesting now, I am afraid that my inquiry would have become entirely
>too enormous for most folks to bother with. Lets just say that I have
>looked everywhere, with the obvious exception of those places where
>the answers I am looking for are actually being kept.
Let's just say that when asked for any sort of evidence of your work you
presented none, Mr Minor... there's a bit more data available in this
newsgroup to indicate that than your having 'looked everywhere'.
>
>The gist of what I am currently seeking should exist mainly within the
>minds of many of those who frequent this newsgroup, hence my inquiry.
That may well be... you are asking a group of what have been called
'knowledge workers'.
>Forgive me for not making it clearer, but I am not asking anyone to go
>out on a google tour on my behalf; I am only asking for information
>relevant to people's own real-world experiences such that we might
>gain a better perspective about the options we are faced with.
This is called 'a consultation', Mr Minor... and a few people here are
accustomed to a phenomenon of which you may not be aware: they use their
brains on the behalf of someone's data-processing project and they get
paid for it.
[snip]
>> >The second problem involves how to handle record locking issues
>> >among multiple users. The lead analyst wants us to code logic
>> >that requires maintenance of a date-time field in every record
>> > - this date-time stamp would then be used for determining the
>> >availability of a given record such that unilaterally-applied
>> >changes are not given an opportunity to sneak in while another
>> >user has said record in a state of flux.
>>
>> How interesting... this is a time-honored technique that I first
>> heard described by someone who worked on one of the original
>> airline reservation systems.
>>
>> Things have changed a bit since then... your lead analyst seems
>> to want to apply techniques for indexed files to a database;
>> this has, in my experience, usually resulted in disappointment
>> for the system's users and those who maintain the code.
>
>
>The handling of record (or I guess I should now say ROW) locking
>conflicts, esp among multiple users, are supposed to be handled
>primarily by functions that are internal to the rdb itself.
'Supposed to be', Mr Minor? What caused anyone to come to that
conclusion... something they overheard in a pub or read in an article in
an airline magazine?
>Regardless of how time-honored a given technique may be, it seems to
>me that by going to the trouble of coding our own locking handler we
>will only end up sidestepping what the rdb is designed to take care of
>for us, and all in exchange for a manual (and inferior) version of
>that capability.
What 'seems to you', Mr Minor, might be different than what is stated in
the product's documentation or in the product's actual functioning... if
someone has made assertions about the product's capabilities then those
assertions might need to be verified.
>
>This is rather like harnessing a team of mules up to a tractor to plow
>the field. Sure, its possible, but we'd be foolishly wasting the very
>reasons that we'd paid extra money to buy the damn tractor in the
>first place.
I was taught, Mr Minor, that 'The responsibility for the allocation,
co-ordination and motivation of personnel and resources towards the
accomplishment of a stated Executive goal is that of Management'... if you
have Managers who purchase tractors in order to harness programmers to
pull them then the Executives deserve what results.
>
>
>> >I'll spare you the further gory details of this terrifying
>> >scheme for now, but suffice it to say we do not like it because
>> >it seems that we would end up re-inventing the wheel, given that
>> >the rdb is supposed to have various locking detection/tools
>> >already built into it.
>>
>> I am not sure about Microsoft SQL Server 2000 but I know that
>> Oracle has some pretty good internals to avoid deadlocks; I
>> suggest that someone dig into the appropriate manual and
>> present the necessary pages to the lead analyst.
>>
>
>Deadlocks per se are not of particular concern to us, as these are
>supposed to be automatically handled by the rdb.
Another 'supposed'... building a product based on suppositions might
result in disappointment.
>What we are trying
>to learn about are the protocols of dealing with wait-locks, time-
>outs, and prevention of unilateral changes etc.
Those should be mentioned in the Product Documentation, along with where
it talks about how 'the Product is supposed to automatically handle
deadlocks'... wonderful things, those 'supposeds' and 'should bes'.
It seems to have done that, and more.
>
>In any case, point taken.
How pleasant... when one is out scouring the UseNet for free advice it
might be best to do so without the equivalent of 'spinach on one's teeth'.
>
>>
>> >Typical HIGH-VOLUME BATCH UPDATE module:
>> >1. Open rdb
>> >2. ~?~?~
>> >3. ~?~?~
>> >4. ~?~?~
>>
>> 2. Do a bunch of stuff.
>> 3. Close rdb
>> 4. Get promoted before this comes back to fasten its teeth
>> in one's gluteals.
>>
>>
>>
>> >Perhaps there is a site somewhere that includes sql-related
>> > coding examples? I appreciate in advance any input that
>> > anyone may have about how we should be approaching this
>> > data conversion effort.
>>
>> My suggestion is that you find people who know what they are
>> doing and pay them a lot of money to do it while you train the
>> on-site staff to deal with the new technology.
>
>Your final suggestion is excellent but I am afraid it is not
>practicable because I do not control any of the purse strings. We
>have no choice but to work with this analyst, along with a rather
>tight-fisted management team who is unwilling to spring for the cost
>of formal training.
Your management will get what they pay for; try to remind them about the
difference in using an architect who has AIA certification and one who
built a dog-house or two.
>Complaints I have aplenty, of course, but that
>won't resolve anything.
Complaints are not nearly as valid as plans, with cause-and-effect clearly
laid out. Implement a new technology without insuring a trained support
base and it is likely that support will be... less than stellar.
>The only realistic and proactive plan we have
>at this point is to continue doing what we are doing, namely, to
>research usenet groups and knowledge bases, to ask questions, read
>manuals, ask more questions, setup & run tests, analyze results,
>borrow or buy additional manuals, and humbly beg somebody in the real
>world to lead us to some working examples.
Hmmmmm... Read Admiral Grace W Hopper once said something along the lines
of ''But we've *always* done it this way'' is the most dangerous phrase in
the language.' Your approach reminds me of a USSR-era joke from decades
on back:
What is Marxist philosophy? Marxist philosophy is a black cat in a black
room.
What is Marxist-Leninist philosophy? Marxist-Leninist philosophy is
looking for a black cat in a black room.
What is Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist philosophy? Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist
philosophy is looking for a black cat in a black room and, every so often,
shouting out 'I've got it! I've got it!'
There used to be a bit of Workplace Humor about beating a dead horse...
but what I know is that if you go into a bar frequented by longshoremen
and say 'Hey, fellows, we're going to be doing some packing and lifting at
our place... who'd like to give us a free bit of work?' you may find
yourself disappointed with the results.
>
>Thank you for your help.
A pleasure.
DD
DaveM
Hindsight being 20-20, our archival research would have yielded much
better results had we known to search for the term "embedded sql".
Had you bothered to heed my earlier mention about our admitted
starting place of ignorance then you would have already figured out
that it can be quite difficult to ask for something when you don't
even know what it is really supposed to be called in the first
place.
Speaking of my own ignorance, I really should have thought to check
your track record before I responded to you the first time. Having
read a sampling of your archived postings since then I have largely
found that your 'input' and 'help' are much more aptly labeled
'heckling' and 'belittlement'. A large part of your responses seem to
be the result of your purposefully reading between lines that aren't
there, and twisting the ones that are, just to stir up reactions from
people for your subsequent entertainment.
You could learn a lot from the other three respondents to this
inquiry. Without demanding research evidence nor accusing people of
trying to pilfer other's professional thoughts, these individuals have
graciously given me the working examples I was looking for, along with
suggestions of books/resources and pointers to better search criteria
(e.g., Embedded Sql).
Given your track record, Mr Dworf, I believe that there are two things
forthcoming from you that are practically inevitable: 1) You are
absolutely going to have to have the last word in this thread, and,
2) You are going to continue to 'help' other requestors in this same
fashion until either death or getting a life.
You are not worth any more of my time. May you savor the distance and
enjoy your freedom.
Dave
docd...@panix.com
DaveM <renf...@xemaps.com> wrote:
>Mr Dworf,
Please... jes' ol' Doc, if you can manage to spell that correctly.
>
>Hindsight being 20-20, our archival research would have yielded much
>better results had we known to search for the term "embedded sql".
>Had you bothered to heed my earlier mention about our admitted
>starting place of ignorance then you would have already figured out
>that it can be quite difficult to ask for something when you don't
>even know what it is really supposed to be called in the first
>place.
The responsibility for knowing where one is going and how to request such
a thing is that of the traveller... knowing neither where one wishes to
end up nor how to request information about it may, indeed, result in
one's getting lost.
>
>Speaking of my own ignorance, I really should have thought to check
>your track record before I responded to you the first time.
You might have checked other things as well... there's an Olde Joke you
might have stumbled across, say, at
http://www.dotnetspider.com/fun/Computer-Joke-838.aspx .
DD
Howard Brazee
>You might have checked other things as well... there's an Olde Joke you
>might have stumbled across, say, at
>http://www.dotnetspider.com/fun/Computer-Joke-838.aspx .
Although looking up the longitude and latitude mentioned in that joke
leaves me scratching my head.
docd...@panix.com
Don't worry, Mr Brazee... somehow that will be the programmer's fault, as
well.
DD
HeyBub
Evidently as the location is about 500 miles east of New York City, in the
Atlantic.
Pete Dashwood
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:eve0f5$lsf$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <1176138034.2...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> DaveM <renf...@xemaps.com> wrote:
>>Mr Dworf,
>
> Please... jes' ol' Doc, if you can manage to spell that correctly.
>
>>
>>Hindsight being 20-20, our archival research would have yielded much
>>better results had we known to search for the term "embedded sql".
>>Had you bothered to heed my earlier mention about our admitted
>>starting place of ignorance then you would have already figured out
>>that it can be quite difficult to ask for something when you don't
>>even know what it is really supposed to be called in the first
>>place.
>
> The responsibility for knowing where one is going and how to request such
> a thing is that of the traveller... knowing neither where one wishes to
> end up nor how to request information about it may, indeed, result in
> one's getting lost.
It certainly does if one only encounters unhelpful people.
People of goodwill can assist the traveller to more clearly define the goals
and the road, even if these are fuzzy at the start.
Sometimes the actual destination is not the one that was originally
envisioned, but as always, the action of getting there is an opportunity for
growth.
>
>>
>>Speaking of my own ignorance, I really should have thought to check
>>your track record before I responded to you the first time.
>
> You might have checked other things as well... there's an Olde Joke you
> might have stumbled across, say, at
> http://www.dotnetspider.com/fun/Computer-Joke-838.aspx .
>
Not sure what the point is here... we have a patently incompetent
programmer, and a patently stupid Project Manager, neither of whom have any
responsibility for their actions.
As they are both idiots, whatever their interaction is, it is of little
consequence. For this joke to work, it would be necessary to identify with
one or other of the parties. This requires us to assume the same mantle of
idiocy that they both display.
Ah, now I see why SOME might find it amusing... :-)
Pete.
docd...@panix.com
Pete Dashwood <dash...@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
><docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:eve0f5$lsf$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>> In article <1176138034.2...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>> DaveM <renf...@xemaps.com> wrote:
>>>Mr Dworf,
>>
>> Please... jes' ol' Doc, if you can manage to spell that correctly.
>>
>>>
>>>Hindsight being 20-20, our archival research would have yielded much
>>>better results had we known to search for the term "embedded sql".
>>>Had you bothered to heed my earlier mention about our admitted
>>>starting place of ignorance then you would have already figured out
>>>that it can be quite difficult to ask for something when you don't
>>>even know what it is really supposed to be called in the first
>>>place.
>>
>> The responsibility for knowing where one is going and how to request such
>> a thing is that of the traveller... knowing neither where one wishes to
>> end up nor how to request information about it may, indeed, result in
>> one's getting lost.
>
>It certainly does if one only encounters unhelpful people.
'Helpful', Mr Dashwood, might be in the mind of the beholder... assisting
someone in learning that it is best to swallow before speaking can not
only assist in clarity of communication, it may decrease someone's chance
of aspirating food.
>
>People of goodwill can assist the traveller to more clearly define the goals
>and the road, even if these are fuzzy at the start.
>
>Sometimes the actual destination is not the one that was originally
>envisioned, but as always, the action of getting there is an opportunity for
>growth.
Being taught that saying 'row' and when to say 'record' when one seeks
free advice from professionals about a business-related matter might cause
one to be taken... a bit less seriously that one desires could well be an
'opportunity for growth' that comes about completely serendipitously,
sure!
>>>
>>>Speaking of my own ignorance, I really should have thought to check
>>>your track record before I responded to you the first time.
>>
>> You might have checked other things as well... there's an Olde Joke you
>> might have stumbled across, say, at
>> http://www.dotnetspider.com/fun/Computer-Joke-838.aspx .
>>
>
>Not sure what the point is here... we have a patently incompetent
>programmer, and a patently stupid Project Manager, neither of whom have any
>responsibility for their actions.
>
>As they are both idiots, whatever their interaction is, it is of little
>consequence. For this joke to work, it would be necessary to identify with
Leaving aside that the text in the URL given might be seen as showing as
much about programming comptence as it does about managerial stupidity
(but it might be seen as... significant how someone might leave a
reference to a programmer in lower case while Project Manager gets
Capitalised) it might be wise to recall an interchange from that Classic
of Anciente Philosophie, 'The Day the Earth Stood Still' (as quoted on
http://imdb.com/title/tt0043456/quotes ):
--begin quoted text:
Mr. Harley: Your impatience is quite understandable.
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live
without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry... I wish it were
otherwise.
--end quoted text
[snip]
>Ah, now I see why SOME might find it amusing... :-)
To the best of my knowledge, Mr Dashwood, no-one has posted to this forum
calling it such.
DD
DaveM
Thank you for your help. Between yours and other responses I am now
aware of more specific terms that we should be using e.g.,
'embedded'), along with other fundamentally important pieces of
information.
Google/web search for 'sql-examples' found 43K hits, but most of these
were about structuring the sql query itself, as opposed to the kinds
of cobol-to-sql-database examples that I was looking for. However, by
narrowing it down further with the added criteria "embedded" and
"cobol" it gave us a much more manageable/relevant 456 hits. The
first page alone gives us more than enough useful links to keep us
constructively busy for a long while!
NE's Database Access online book was/is quite useful, but, of course,
did not contain the real-world examples we were looking for. With
enlightenments since gleaned via this and other threads, I am happy to
say the this book is even MORE useful now because I have gained a
significantly better sense of what many of the pieces really mean and
how they are applied. (I still have a long way to go, obviously, but
it sure feels better to know I'm at least holding the manual right-
side up, so to speak.)
ESQL Assistant looks very useful, and I most certainly will also take
up your suggestion of signing up for MF forum per SQL.
According to one of the other writers I now owe you a consultant's
fee, along with a signed affadavit proving that I have already
achieved expert status in any given subject before having the audacity
to ask anyone else questions about it. ;o)
Again, and in all seriousness, I thank you for your help.
Gratefully,
Dave Miner
DaveM
message, I mistakenly posted it under TLEADERS's message. Sorry about
that! -Dave
docd...@panix.com
DaveM <renf...@xemaps.com> wrote:
[snip]
>According to one of the other writers I now owe you a consultant's
>fee, along with a signed affadavit proving that I have already
>achieved expert status in any given subject before having the audacity
>to ask anyone else questions about it. ;o)
Mr Miner, the concept of 'owe' can carry with it both legal and moral
obligations. To the best of my knowledge there's no contractual agreement
for payment between you and anyone offering responses here so - it might
be concluded - that you owe twice as much as you've already been asked to
pay.
On the other hand... you received information which, by your own
admission, has saved you time; it can be argued that you owe a portion of
your savings to one who assisted you in achieving them... and if
Franklin's Equivalence ('Time is Money') is valid then you owe someone
cash.
As for 'expert status'... that was never asked. Just think of what you
might have gotten were you to have respected the subject matter
sufficiently to learn some basic terminology before trotting your requests
out before the world, hat in your hand and spinach on your teeth, asking
for folks to Do Their Jobs For You For Free.
It turns out that you got... something, sure. How you evaluate whether
what you got is of value or will send you and your team rushing pell-mell
down a dead end is another matter... wouldn't want to find yourself on the
carpet in front of the CFO saying 'But this... guy on the UseNet told me
it'd work, how was *I* to know he was fulla hooey... I'm not Technical,
you know! To Julia... do it to Julia, not me!', would you?
DD
James J. Gavan
> Jimmy,
>
> Thank you for your help. Between yours and other responses I am now
> aware of more specific terms that we should be using e.g.,
> 'embedded'), along with other fundamentally important pieces of
> information.
>
Don't know how I dreamed up 58K hits - just re-did it and came up with
the same 43K hits that you did :-)
Doesn't give exactly what you were immediately after but check M/F site
for examples/samples - there are three 'general' SQL routines. Plus if
you get into your N/E sub-folders there are also some demos of 'general'
SQL solutions. Once into the M/F Forum you can search previous messages
with "Database", "ODBC" and "SQL" etc. You can't respond to the next -
but you can also look at old ARCHIVED messages. Like M/S, M/F under Net
Express also has a KnowledgeBase. But the whole bunch above tend to be
generalized.
Pete Dashwood's solution and ESQL Assistant. Pete reads your COBOL file
records and generates equivalent DB rows into a table. ESQL Assistant -
*YOU* design the DB Table and determine what type of SQL fields/columns
(Int, Char etc.), you want. Naturally the latter approach means you have
to get au fait with the particular DB package, (how numerics are stored)
- so it could take you a week or more to convert, depending upon the
number of tables you are going to generate.
There might be a nice solution using both Pete's package and ESQL
Assistant. Pete will read a whole bunch of COBOL files in mere minutes
and generate your DB Table formats. Now using ESQL Assistant, (the major
thing being you can generate your SQL statements knowing they will be
correct), when you test on a particular table the ESQL package will ask
you if you want to generate a copyfile - three parts :-
DB Table format
DB Table NULL columns
COBOL - a typical COBOL record
So Pete provides the initial definition of your DB Table and from that
ESQL using Pete's DB Table, generates the copyfile above which you can
test your individual queries with.
Obviously you are picking up stuff as you do more reading, but for a
quickie comparison, and don't take this as gospel :-
COBOL FILES SQL
----------- -------------
Open/Close Connect/Disconnect (Note you connect/disconnect
to a specific Database which may contain 50 Tables,
(equivalent of 50 COBOL files, or perhaps 30 Files,
split into 50 tables)
Read using PrimeKey Select Distinct
Read Next Select using Cursor - This uses a number for the
cursor. ESQL Assistant automatically generates the
next number, so there's no confusion between
different queries
Rewrite Update
Write Insert
Delete Delete
The use of the various SQL "Verbs" becomes clearer if you use ESQL
Assistant to generate queries.
I think what you balked at in your original message was "How to..." do
equivalent of COBOL Write and Rewrite.
PROCEDURAL using an ISAM (my own style - so you adapt to your way)
------------------------
Display Screen-Record/GUI Dialog
Accept PrimeKey
if Blank - Quit
else set RecordNotFound, RecordNotChanged to true
Read Record using PrimeKey (SQL - SELECT DISTINCT )
End-if
if RecordFound
perform DISPLAY-RECORD
perform ACCEPT-CHANGES
for Changed-fields set RecordChanged to true
else (RecordNotFound)
set RecordChanged to true
perform ACCEPT-NEW-RECORD, (other than the PrimeKey)
then perform ACCEPT-CHANGES (if you want to make corrections)
End-if
if RecordChanged
perform VALIDATION-CHECKS
(errors - go back to perform ACCEPT-CHANGES)
End-if
if ValidationOK (this is also a Level 88)
if RecordFound
REWRITE COBOL-RECORD
else WRITE COBOL-RECORD
End-if
PROCEDURAL using SQL
--------------------
The only real difference between this and COBOL file above is
substituting :-
SELECT DISTINCT = READ FILE using PrimeKey
SQL-UPDATE = REWRITE COBOL-RECORD
SQL-INSERT = WRITE COBOL-RECORD.
REAL WORLD EXAMPLES
-------------------
I don't know that M/F have anything specific, but you could ask if you
join the M/F Forum
I did post a message the latter part of last year - but can't locate it;
e-mail me 'editing' my address above, so that I can confirm a link to
you and in return I'll post the code I'm referring to. It's OO Classes
but when looking at methods being invoked think of CALLING another
program or performing a PARAGRAPH. I'm not recommending *mine* is the
way to do it, but for a simple file it illustrates the program logic
flow I illustrated above and gives you the COMPLETE SQL Statements for
INSERT, UPDATE, CURSOR etc... for a specific table. (I don't mind if you
call them records or rows :-) ).
If/when you get a paperback, or articles on design from the Web,
concentrate on the term 'Normalization' so that you have a handle on it.
Jimmy
Pete Dashwood
"James J. Gavan" <jgavande...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:sNVSh.51648$6m4.42486@pd7urf1no...
<snip>>
> Pete Dashwood's solution and ESQL Assistant. Pete reads your COBOL file
> records and generates equivalent DB rows into a table.
Not quite.
ISAM2RDB reads your COBOL source definitions and generates one or more
TABLES into a designated DATABASE.
A single ISAM file definition COULD generate several tables. Ths is because
the normalization process removes repeating groups (OCCURS in COBOL) to a
separate linked table for each group. (One advantage of this is that every
"table" in your COBOL system now has unlimited rows (no more maintaining
OCCURS items) and will only take as much space as it actually needs...)
If your ISAM source definition has no OCCURS in it, then you should get a
single table, with a correctly typed column for each of the fields defined
in your ISAM definition. (Both groups and elements are defined, to assist
with data loading and converting existing programs that may reference group
fields. Unreferenced groups can be removed later.)
Certainly this tool gives you a structure that is useful while you are
transitioning from ISAM to RDB. However, I would not suggest that this is
how Relational Databases should be designed and built :-) It is a
non-relational solution forced into a relational framework and, as such, it
can never be as good as a Relational solution built from scratch. Sadly few
of us have the time or funding to restart from scratch when moving to new
technology, so ISAM2RDB provides a helpful bridge. (It also assists with the
learning process; for example, you can look at the PICTURE of a given
element in your COBOL code and see what type of Database definition for the
corresponding column was generated on the RDB.)
ESQL Assistant -
> *YOU* design the DB Table and determine what type of SQL fields/columns
> (Int, Char etc.), you want. Naturally the latter approach means you have
> to get au fait with the particular DB package, (how numerics are stored)
> - so it could take you a week or more to convert, depending upon the
> number of tables you are going to generate.
>
> There might be a nice solution using both Pete's package and ESQL
> Assistant. Pete will read a whole bunch of COBOL files in mere minutes
> and generate your DB Table formats. Now using ESQL Assistant, (the major
> thing being you can generate your SQL statements knowing they will be
> correct), when you test on a particular table the ESQL package will ask
> you if you want to generate a copyfile - three parts :-
>
> DB Table format
> DB Table NULL columns
> COBOL - a typical COBOL record
>
> So Pete provides the initial definition of your DB Table and from that
> ESQL using Pete's DB Table, generates the copyfile above which you can
> test your individual queries with.
Yes, that could be viable. I guess it depends on how many tables are
involved. If it is just a few, it is probably better to simply use ESQL and
learn how to define tables. If there are many, it might be useful to use
ISAM2RDB and pick up some pointers on how to define and normalize tables, in
passing.
>
>
> If/when you get a paperback, or articles on design from the Web,
> concentrate on the term 'Normalization' so that you have a handle on it.
>
A very important observation, Jimmy.
I have some stuff on this somewhere... I'll see if I can post it to a web
server so people can access it.
Pete.
James J. Gavan
> "James J. Gavan" <jgavande...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:sNVSh.51648$6m4.42486@pd7urf1no...
> <snip>>
>
>>Pete Dashwood's solution and ESQL Assistant. Pete reads your COBOL file
>>records and generates equivalent DB rows into a table.
>
>
> Not quite.
>
> ISAM2RDB reads your COBOL source definitions and generates one or more
> TABLES into a designated DATABASE.
Yes I can see I worded that badly - I really meant as you point out,
that you generate the format for a Row in a particular table, or
perhaps, like the reference to OCCURS below - you may generate
definitions for one or more Tables. (I wonder if that's why the J4 gang
are so keen on an 800 plus page document - so that you dot all the i's
and cross all the t's :-) )
>
> A single ISAM file definition COULD generate several tables. Ths is because
> the normalization process removes repeating groups (OCCURS in COBOL) to a
> separate linked table for each group. (One advantage of this is that every
> "table" in your COBOL system now has unlimited rows (no more maintaining
> OCCURS items) and will only take as much space as it actually needs...)
>
> If your ISAM source definition has no OCCURS in it, then you should get a
> single table, with a correctly typed column for each of the fields defined
> in your ISAM definition. (Both groups and elements are defined, to assist
> with data loading and converting existing programs that may reference group
> fields. Unreferenced groups can be removed later.)
>
> Certainly this tool gives you a structure that is useful while you are
> transitioning from ISAM to RDB. However, I would not suggest that this is
> how Relational Databases should be designed and built :-) It is a
> non-relational solution forced into a relational framework and, as such, it
> can never be as good as a Relational solution built from scratch. Sadly few
> of us have the time or funding to restart from scratch when moving to new
> technology, so ISAM2RDB provides a helpful bridge. (It also assists with the
> learning process; for example, you can look at the PICTURE of a given
> element in your COBOL code and see what type of Database definition for the
> corresponding column was generated on the RDB.)
>
>
If he should opt to go with ISAM2RDB to get his Table definitions - and
it involves OCCURS - please make sure you spell out to him how to use
the resulting 'inter-linking' tables. Aeons ago you produced similar for
me - but without explanation how to use the 're-vamped OCCURS', I was
stumped on how to use them !
Just one other thought which you might comment on. When Dave has done
his setup with tables and definitions, for his real-world COBOL files, I
can't think of another solution, other than generating CSV files to
import to the Database ??? (And given any OCCURS - he may have to
generate more than one CSV from a given COBOL file).
Don't want to insult you Dave - but in case the term is new to you,
'CSV' = Comma, Separated, Variables where records are written to a Line
Sequential in the field/column sequence to make up a record being
imported to a Table row, and usually with the file suffix .txt'.
No more below.
Jimmy
Pete Dashwood
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>> "James J. Gavan" <jgavande...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>> news:sNVSh.51648$6m4.42486@pd7urf1no...
>> <snip>>
> involves OCCURS - please make sure you spell out to him how to use the
> resulting 'inter-linking' tables. Aeons ago you produced similar for me -
> but without explanation how to use the 're-vamped OCCURS', I was
> stumped on how to use them !
>
You never asked for help.
Since then a number of customers have successfully used this tool. It comes
with a comprehensive Help file that took almost as long to develop as the
software did :-) There are also various ancilliaries and "support"
functions.
The concept of a secondary table linked to a primary one by a Foreign Key is
not exactly rocket science. It's actually pretty fundamental to Relational
Databases.
Obviously, if anyone had trouble using it I would gladly help, but I am no
longer in the business of converting ISAM files (unless someone pays me a
market rate to do so...:-)) and I'm not actually trying to sell this
software...The tool is there and I'm happy to let people use it, but I'm not
spending hours of time (which I simply don't have, at the moment) explaining
fundamental concepts and providing free support.
> Just one other thought which you might comment on. When Dave has done his
> setup with tables and definitions, for his real-world COBOL files, I can't
> think of another solution, other than generating CSV files to import to
> the Database ??? (And given any OCCURS - he may have to generate more than
> one CSV from a given COBOL file).
>
That would possibly work, but there is no need to do so. An approach I have
used in the past, successfully, is to write a COBOL program that reads the
ISAM file sequentially and simply transfers each record obtained, to the RDB
interface generated by ISAM2RDB. As I mentioned elsewhere, the tool allows
people with no RDB or SQL knowledge to access the RDB using COBOL records.
The RDB maintenance module for the table being loaded will simply INSERT all
the data. There is no need for intermediate processes or export/import; it
is direct from ISAM to RDB.
The fundamental thing here is that a COBOL program can read ISAM and "write"
RDB (within the same program). Once you write such a program you have a
template that enables the loading of all future tables from their equivalent
ISAM files.
Pete.
James J. Gavan
> "James J. Gavan" <jgavande...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:4c%Sh.53345$6m4.32414@pd7urf1no...
>
>>Pete Dashwood wrote:
>>
>>>"James J. Gavan" <jgavande...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>>news:sNVSh.51648$6m4.42486@pd7urf1no...
>>><snip>>
>>
>>If he should opt to go with ISAM2RDB to get his Table definitions - and it
>>involves OCCURS - please make sure you spell out to him how to use the
>>resulting 'inter-linking' tables. Aeons ago you produced similar for me -
>>but without explanation how to use the 're-vamped OCCURS', I was
>>stumped on how to use them !
>>
>
> What you got was a pre-release of the product.
>
> You never asked for help.
True. But I didn't ask for the table definitions either, which you
returned to me having used, as yet another test set, my COBOL record
copyfiles. I was supposed to know what the Table definitions were ? You
subsequently developed the Help File below which probably covered this
and other points.
I'm aware you do a good job on Help Files, so Dave shouldn't have a
problem working his way through it. For me, just academic at this stage,
as I wont be doing any more productive coding.
Again yes to the above. But from my experience, the quick transfer is
not necessarily the best for every situation :-
- Using any new tool, (Screen to GUIs, COBOL files to DBs etc., or as
you have done, COBOL to Java, then moving on to C#), should,
I believe, trigger in your mind what advantages the new tools give you.
So as part of the design planning inevitably you think of enhanced ways
of doing things - which can lead to a slightly different, or
considerably different database from the original.
- In my case the necessity of converting 700 data sets (different
geographical locations), with some 7 files each, accumulated over a
twenty-year period, to fit a new design format. That meant in some
stages of the transfer process the 'old' records just didn't have some
fields needed in the "new" DB tables. So process in phases, having
generated error reports where necessary, stop, do some manual editing
and then move to the later phases.
- The best way of achieving this for me - Line Sequential - using a
fixed record template. Given a value of 2.345 held in pic 9(03)v9(03)
comp-3, the template outputs : ",002.345," - the result, all columns are
aligned making it very easy to swiftly scroll through records, and make
editing changes where necessary.
- Even with the above approach it is still a fiddly operation, i.e.
checking the validity of the input data. You could of course take the
'cleaned up' Line Sequential CSV and "write" to the DB as you suggest.
However given the format is a CSV - just do the one import.
Different strokes for different folks.
Jimmy
Pete Dashwood
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>> "James J. Gavan" <jgavande...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>> news:4c%Sh.53345$6m4.32414@pd7urf1no...
>>
> Again yes to the above. But from my experience, the quick transfer is
> not necessarily the best for every situation :-
It is if you're in a hurry... :-)
>
> - Using any new tool, (Screen to GUIs, COBOL files to DBs etc., or as you
> have done, COBOL to Java, then moving on to C#), should,
> I believe, trigger in your mind what advantages the new tools give you.
> So as part of the design planning inevitably you think of enhanced ways
> of doing things - which can lead to a slightly different, or
> considerably different database from the original.
Sure. Growth occurs. And when it does, we see different, and often better,
ways of doing things.
We are then faced with the dilemma of whether we should convert or scrap
what we have and go back to square one, or continue with what we (now...)
know is a sub-optimum solution. Usually a balance is struck between these
two extremes... in this case it is a conversion from ISAM to RDB; probably
the best that can done under the circumstances.
A "Relational purist" will be unhappy because the RDB is being constrained
by the original ISAM DB design (which may have also "evolved" over time),,
and therefore doesn't realise all the true benefits of RDB; someone who
LOVES ISAM and flat files will be unhappy about why something that works
fine, is being moved to a "new fangled technology" (even if it is nearly 25
years old... some people are suspicious of anything less than two decades
old...)...no-one is ever completely happy.
Given all these conflicts of perspective and interest, it is a miracle there
are any functioniong systems in the world at all...:-)
My experience is that people do the best they can; (no-one gets out of bed
in the morning and decides: "I think I'll go into work today and really
screw up everything I do...yeah, that'll make me feel better...")...
sometimes they get it wrong, sometimes they get it right, sometimes they are
constrained by other factors into compromises which are not optimal. Only
very rarely (and it is more likely if you work for yourself, and can
therefore decide what you will or will not go with) does the opportunity to
do something from scratch, using the best technology arise. (Even then, in 5
years you will realise it could have been better... :-))
>
> - In my case the necessity of converting 700 data sets (different
> geographical locations), with some 7 files each, accumulated over a
> twenty-year period, to fit a new design format. That meant in some stages
> of the transfer process the 'old' records just didn't have some fields
> needed in the "new" DB tables. So process in phases, having generated
> error reports where necessary, stop, do some manual editing and then move
> to the later phases.
>
Sounds pretty drastic...
One advantage of RDB of course, is that it is very easy to "expand the
design" and tolerate missing data as well.
> - The best way of achieving this for me - Line Sequential - using a fixed
> record template. Given a value of 2.345 held in pic 9(03)v9(03) comp-3,
> the template outputs : ",002.345," - the result, all columns are aligned
> making it very easy to swiftly scroll through records, and make editing
> changes where necessary.
This is one step away from what I suggested. Only difference, I'd have the
template write the data directly to the RDB and do the "cleanup" on the RDB,
where there are better tools available for identifying and correcting data
anomalies.
However, ANY solution that works, is a GOOD solution... :-}
(I was embarrassed when, as a student pilot, I made a pretty heavy landing
and apologised to my instructor. He was a Texan who was rarely phased by
anything, and he just drawled: "Son, any landing you walk away from is a
GOOD landing...")
>
> - Even with the above approach it is still a fiddly operation, i.e.
> checking the validity of the input data. You could of course take the
> 'cleaned up' Line Sequential CSV and "write" to the DB as you suggest.
> However given the format is a CSV - just do the one import.
>
> Different strokes for different folks.
Absolutely.
Pete.
Rick Smith
"Pete Dashwood" <dash...@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:585r42F...@mid.individual.net...
[snip]
> We are then faced with the dilemma of whether we should convert or scrap
> what we have and go back to square one, or continue with what we (now...)
> know is a sub-optimum solution. Usually a balance is struck between these
> two extremes... in this case it is a conversion from ISAM to RDB; probably
> the best that can done under the circumstances.
< http://www.microfocusworld.com/track_page.php?id=5 >
"A partner will present a session that shows how a relational
database can be used with a COBOL application using
standard COBOL I/O statements, WITHOUT any changes
to the code!"
Perhaps the best is no conversion, at all! Just upgrade to the
latest technology.
docd...@panix.com
Mr Smith, come now... an organisation where the analyst recommends
timestamping records... errrr, rows in a database and the manager has to
turn to the UseNet for help will not, in my experience, embrace a solution
which requires Spending Money to upgrade technology or sending someone of
sufficient technical competence to benefit from the experience - as
opposed to, say, a Corner-Office Idiot - to the Royal Pacific Resort in
Orlando, FL, USA for three days.
(oh... and a rather common mis-spelling in the paragraph you quoted might
be seen, by some, as casting aspersions on the relibility of the claims)
DD
Alistair
wrote:
> <docdw...@panix.com> wrote in messagenews:
> > You might have checked other things as well... there's an Olde Joke you
> > might have stumbled across, say, at
> >http://www.dotnetspider.com/fun/Computer-Joke-838.aspx.
>
> Not sure what the point is here... we have a patently incompetent
> programmer, and a patently stupid Project Manager, neither of whom have any
> responsibility for their actions.
>
> As they are both idiots, whatever their interaction is, it is of little
> consequence. For this joke to work, it would be necessary to identify with
> one or other of the parties. This requires us to assume the same mantle of
> idiocy that they both display.
>
> Ah, now I see why SOME might find it amusing... :-)
>
> Pete
I have to take issue with your description of the Programmer as being
incompetent; he clearly answered the question posed in the most
accurate fashion possible, volunteering more information than is
strictly necessary. I wonder if there is a certain note of
defensiveness in your response?
I do, however, agree that the project manager is clearly incompetent
(at ballooning, at boy-scout preparation, at map-reading, at eliciting
information?).
;-)
Alistair
> In article <131sb8b2f0at...@corp.supernews.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Rick Smith <ricksm...@mfi.net> wrote:
>
> >"Pete Dashwood" <dashw...@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
I presume that you mean me and the sleight of hand. I believe slight
of hand is only relevant in BDSM circles.
docd...@panix.com
[snip]
>> (oh... and a rather common mis-spelling in the paragraph you quoted might
>> be seen, by some, as casting aspersions on the relibility of the claims)
>
>I presume that you mean me and the sleight of hand. I believe slight
>of hand is only relevant in BDSM circles.
It may have been done with craftiness, Mr Maclean, but I am unsure whether
it was done in order to deceive... so if it offended perhaps it was a
sleightless slight.
(wonderful language, this English... how *does* anyone learn it?)
DD
Pete Dashwood
"Alistair" <alis...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1176405267.6...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 10 Apr, 00:39, "Pete Dashwood" <dashw...@removethis.enternet.co.nz>
> wrote:
>> <docdw...@panix.com> wrote in messagenews:
>> > You might have checked other things as well... there's an Olde Joke you
>> > might have stumbled across, say, at
>> >http://www.dotnetspider.com/fun/Computer-Joke-838.aspx.
>>
>> Not sure what the point is here... we have a patently incompetent
>> programmer, and a patently stupid Project Manager, neither of whom have
>> any
>> responsibility for their actions.
>>
>> As they are both idiots, whatever their interaction is, it is of little
>> consequence. For this joke to work, it would be necessary to identify
>> with
>> one or other of the parties. This requires us to assume the same mantle
>> of
>> idiocy that they both display.
>>
>> Ah, now I see why SOME might find it amusing... :-)
>>
>> Pete
>
> I have to take issue with your description of the Programmer as being
> incompetent; he clearly answered the question posed in the most
> accurate fashion possible, volunteering more information than is
> strictly necessary.
Really? By what strange definition of "competence" does a person standing
in a field, decide that his current location is at co-ordinates that are
several hundred miles off-shore in the Atlantic Ocean?
If this is your idea of the "most accurate fashion possible" I can
understand how getting a job may be ..... difficult.
> I wonder if there is a certain note of
> defensiveness in your response?
I wonder if there is a certain note of attempting to stir things in yours?
> I do, however, agree that the project manager is clearly incompetent
> (at ballooning, at boy-scout preparation, at map-reading, at eliciting
> information?).
>
Yes, on that we can agree.
Pete.
Rick Smith
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:evleq8$o9j$1...@reader2.panix.com...
Apart from your alleged experience, this latest
technology would reasonably permit one to identify
"rows in a database" as records since there would
be no difference with respect to a COBOL program,
where the concept "records in a file" is common.
Pete Dashwood
>
> "James J. Gavan" <jgavande...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:sNVSh.51648$6m4.42486@pd7urf1no...
> <snip>>
>> If/when you get a paperback, or articles on design from the Web,
>> concentrate on the term 'Normalization' so that you have a handle on it.
>>
>
> A very important observation, Jimmy.
>
> I have some stuff on this somewhere... I'll see if I can post it to a web
> server so people can access it.
>
> Pete.
>
This has now been posted... Accessing the following link will reveal 3
documents that are worth reading if you are considering migrating ISAM to
RDB....
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dashwood/dashwood/RDBStuff/
Any or all feedback appreciated.
Pete.
docd...@panix.com
Rick Smith <rick...@mfi.net> wrote:
>
><docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:evleq8$o9j$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>> In article <131sb8b...@corp.supernews.com>,
>> Rick Smith <rick...@mfi.net> wrote:
[snip]
>> >< http://www.microfocusworld.com/track_page.php?id=5 >
>> >"A partner will present a session that shows how a relational
>> >database can be used with a COBOL application using
>> >standard COBOL I/O statements, WITHOUT any changes
>> >to the code!"
>> >
>> >Perhaps the best is no conversion, at all! Just upgrade to the
>> >latest technology.
>>
>> Mr Smith, come now... an organisation where the analyst recommends
>> timestamping records... errrr, rows in a database and the manager has to
>> turn to the UseNet for help will not, in my experience, embrace a solution
>> which requires Spending Money to upgrade technology or sending someone of
>> sufficient technical competence to benefit from the experience - as
>> opposed to, say, a Corner-Office Idiot - to the Royal Pacific Resort in
>> Orlando, FL, USA for three days.
>
>Apart from your alleged experience, this latest
>technology would reasonably permit one to identify
>"rows in a database" as records since there would
>be no difference with respect to a COBOL program,
>where the concept "records in a file" is common.
Mr Smith, I am not sure what you are calling 'a COBOL program' here.
According to the last version of the COBOL Language Reference I consulted
(<http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/FRAMESET/IGY3LR10/CCONTENTS?DT=20020920180651>
or thereabouts) there are Reserved Words for file and record access; where
are you finding the ones which allow 'a COBOL program' to address a
database?
('Reasonable' might be in the mind of the beholder, of course; a fuel
injector might be the same with respect to an automobile as a
carburetor... errr, carburettor... oh, such things make me tyred...
anyhow, the two devices might be the same in that they both assist in
supplying the engine with air/fuel mixtures; it may be that 'a rose, by
any other name', has a different place in poetry than it could in a
technically-oriented workplace.)
DD
Howard Brazee
<dash...@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>Really? By what strange definition of "competence" does a person standing
>in a field, decide that his current location is at co-ordinates that are
>several hundred miles off-shore in the Atlantic Ocean?
Standing in a field is one thing. Outstanding in a field is
something else.
Alistair
wrote:
> "Alistair" <alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
According to my map reading skills he would have been standing on the
Sohm Plain, probably at a depth of around 1000 feet. I give you that
his GPS (if he had one) was somewhat out of true but then there is no
field at that location so the joke needs to be updated. So that still
leaves the PM at 300% more incompetent than the Programmer.
And YES, I was stirring it a bit, but I have noticed a certain
tendency on your part to blame programmers before managers for project
ills and skills shortages.
Rick Smith
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:evo3dn$o4d$1...@reader2.panix.com...
The claim was with respect to "using standard COBOL
I/O statements". There was no claim respecting 'physical
files' nor 'physical records' as defined by standard COBOL.
Page 146, FDIS ISO/IEC 1989:2002, 9.1.1 Physical and
logical files, "... In this document, references to records mean
to logical records, unless the term 'physical record' is specifically
used. Similarly, references to files mean to the logical
characteristics of a file, unless 'physical file' is used."
Page 4, FDIS ISO/IEC 1989:2002, 3.1.8 Nonstandard extensions,
"Nonstandard extensions are language elements or functionality
in an implementation that consist of any of the following:
...
3) language elements defined in this International Standard
for which different functionality is implemented, where that
language element is required for conformance to this
International Standard, provided that standard-conforming
behavior is also implemented and that an implementor-defined
mechanism exists for selection of the nonstandard behavior."
Thus, "an implementor-defined mechanism" for selectively
replacing the standard COBOL "file connector" with, say, a
"database connector" would permit "using standard COBOL
I/O statements" to access a database and without
contradicting standard COBOL.
docd...@panix.com
This might be, Mr Smith, a reason for my having mentioned neither
'physical files' nor 'physical records'. What implementors may wish to
do with access-methods are their own concerns.
DD
Pete Dashwood
"Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:nb4v13hdjpic5jlmq...@4ax.com...
ROFL!
(Of course, I wouldn't know, having striven for mediocrity throughout ost of
my life... :-))
Pete.
Pete Dashwood
> On 13 Apr, 11:58, "Pete Dashwood" <dashw...@removethis.enternet.co.nz>
> wrote:
>> "Alistair" <alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
> So that still
> leaves the PM at 300% more incompetent than the Programmer.
Just like someone being 300% more dead than another...
>
> And YES, I was stirring it a bit, but I have noticed a certain
> tendency on your part to blame programmers before managers for project
> ills and skills shortages.
>
OK, let's finish this right here, once and for all.
I have been a programmer since 1965. I'm still a programmer. I posted
program code to this very forum yesterday (when was the last time you did,
Alistair?) and I am taking a break from writing more program code (on a
Saturday) to write this response. I intend to be a programmer as long as I
can see and use my fingers.
However, although programming is a passion for me, it is not the only "hat"
I wear. For almost two decades now I have been making a living out of
managing programmers and providing consultancy to corporations. So amongst
my other "hats"... manager, consultant, negotiator, mediator, conflict
resolver, trouble shooter, and project manager.
I am getting a bit tired of certain people here ALWAYS seeing the trouble as
being caused by management so, if I defend that point of view, it is
because of that. I don't like unbalanced assessments.
There ARE bad managers, just as there are crap programmers. Both varieties
make life tiresome for those of us who just want to do a job as well as we
know how, and get some satisfaction from it.
As for blaming either programmers or managers for the ills of a project, I
never do that. I don't blame anyone for anything. Ever.
I see no point in blame (by the same token, I see rehabilitation as
preferable to punishment... guess I'm a pinko Liberal :-)), and every
project or team I manage promotes a blame-free culture. I encourage
personal responsibility and try to see that people have enough empowerment
to exercise their discretion and take responsibility. Someone makes a bad
decision, they learn from it and move on. There can be no growth if all we
ever do is stay comfortable and do as we are told, without thought or
question, then gleefully point the finger at others when things go pear
shaped. (I have fired people for doing this, even though they were
technically "right" and quite convinced they could not be touched because
they had simply done as they were told, knowing full well the consequences
of doing so...). People screw up, they fix it.(Sometimes the rest of the
team help them fix it; I have never abandoned anyone on my team because they
screwed up. I have defended them (even when they were patently wrong,
sometimes) and ensured that whatever was made wrong was made right.). This
applies equally to managers and programmers.
NO-ONE works alone on my watch, including me. I keep the team informed of
what is going on politically and explain what I am doing about it. I listen
to suggestions and considerations and apply them if they make sense....I
work very hard to keep politics and paperwork off their backs so they can do
their job. (Funny thing, I never have trouble getting tech people to work
with me again, once they have done so... can't say the same about certain
managers.)
I've fought battles at senior management level and right through the gamut
of management. I know that Doc's "Corner Office Idiot" (actually, I love
that... :-)) is a reality, and I've dealt with them too. But, and this is
the important point, there are also people in corner offices who are doing
the very best they can. There are people who are the first to arrive and the
last to leave, dedicated company people who put heart and soul into their
jobs and are defined by the work they do. (No, I don't think this is
healthy, but I'm certainly not going to denigrate these people or tar them
with the same brush as COIs.)
When every programmer and staff member in the company is saintly and without
fault, when these perfect superior people are NEVER wrong and ALWAYS right,
THEN, I might agree they have the right to denigrate the people who manage
them (be they idiots or saints). In the meantime, criticism is fine and
natural but it should be fair and true, and preferably from a position of
seeking to improve, not seeking to destroy, humiliate, or belittle, for the
sake of destruction or to boost one's own ego. There is enough negativity
and frustration in everyday work without seizing on the opportunity to
generate more because some COI screwed up again.
All of us every day have to deal with management decisions that are not
perfect, sometimes downright stupid. It goes with the territory. You pick
your battles and win the ones you can; get stupid policies changed, don't
sit back and pontificate on how stupid THEY are and how clever WE are...
In the final analysis, I guess it is this US and THEM perception that really
irritates me. Especially when I can find myself in both camps...:-)
OK, that's all I really want to say on this... back to work. (I'm working
for this really hard bastard who sets me impossible goals and makes me work
weekends if I don't achieve them... soon as I can, I'm going to quit working
for him and get a job with some much more understanding management...:-))
Pete.
Alistair
Doesn't that get you into trouble with your managers?
Thanks Pete, a good response. I think that a problem with management
is that we all think that we can do better if only we were in their
shoes. The reality is that we would probably be worse at management
than those we criticise. I know from having had disagreements with
managers in the past that there often is much that they see that we do
not know of, at the coalface, and I have certainly been grateful for
their shields from time to time.
Robert Jones
I agree with you and with Alistair's response, though think that such
issues are often basically a system problem, for exmaple, take the
following items and stir them with a wooden spoon over a hot stove.
Customers always want/buy/can afford/justify to their shareholders
items/services that are the cheapest, most effective and speedily
available.
Employees want as much money as possible for as little effort as
possible in congenial surroundings.
Employers want as much work as possible for as little money as
possible in the cheapest facilities practical.
If you pay peanuts you get monkeys
If a million monkeys spent a thousand years bashing away on
typewriters, one might write the works of Shakespeare (some might say
that one did, only he didn't use a typewriter, I don't know what his
handwriting was like, but I work in the NHS).
Many programmers and probably analysts wrote most of their programs
online with two fingers. Managers paid them to do it like that. I
wrote much of mine like that too.
Employers and employees are often unwilling (can not afford) to invest
time and money in training to use software and equipment to best
advantage.
No one gets a job for life anymore and many didn't anyway.
Employers are mostly in no position to promise a job for life.
Restrictive practices and agreeing to inappropriate contract terms.
The need for employers and employees to protect and invest in
intellectual property and rights while still managing to do their jobs
effectively with several employees and employers.
Most software written on behalf of employers was not reviewed for a
possible conflict with software patents, which were in any case
legally disallowed for much of my career. Certainly not in my
personal experience in a variety of companies and government
organisations. When I have had to specify, write or amend a program
to provide some funtionality, I have never had to check if someone
else from another organisation had done something similar and patented
it, so that my work was in contravention. I can not begin to imagine
how much extra overhead and delay there would be if all organisations
had to make such checks.
Twiddling thumbs furiously.
Some of the programming and design standards I have seen.
Drinking at lunchtime.
Some of the progams and specifications that I have seen.
I have also seen some very well written specifications, programs and
user documentation.
Cultures of working long hours.
Getting a life
Office parties.
Perennial legislative changes necessitating software amendment.
Tax structures.
Political planning generally being subject to general election and
short-term public opinion constraints.
Alternatives to democracy have generally been much worse.
Voter apathy and political skulduggery.
Investing for the future in child and adult education.
That's probably enough of this rant, I am certainly not perfect myself
either. I have just enjoyed a very pleasant ride on my motorbike to
Symonds Yat in Gloucestershire, in fine good and warm weather. I
stopped on the way back to listen to the nightingales in a local
nature reserve.
(I tried posting this earlier but lost my connection, though it said
it was sent, but now can't see it in the list, though it might turn up
later. I have lately taken to saving posts separately while writing
them to protect myself from such problems and this one is very similar
to the other, though I think it is better for having had a little more
time spent on it.)
Robert
Pete Dashwood
Yes, of course it does... :-)
(I don't reveal things I have been told in confidence by managers or team
members, but if there is information that affects our project and I can't
tell them, I may say that. As soon as it is clear to tell them, I do so.)
Fortunately, these days having a certain track record, I tend to report to
very senior people and they like having an independent view which is not
trying to further a career by arse-licking, but is honestly trying to make
things better and get things done. One advantage of being an independent
consultant is that you don't need to worry about career advancement, and can
call things as you see them. I can think immediately of several occasions
where I stated opinions at Board level which caused a shocked hush :-) But,
further down the track I was thanked for speaking out, and the result was
change in the Organization which was better for all concerned.
The point is you don't go looking for confrontation and you work with
people, understanding their problems and helping to look at/for solutions,
but occasionally, you will encounter a COI who believes that the power of
the corner is the only way to do things and that any suggestion for change
is simply disruptive and stirring rebellion in the ranks. (These people are
invariably the ones who have acquired power through longevity rather than
ability, and the power they enjoy at work is usually the only part of their
life that is empowered. As a result, they misuse the power they have.)
I have encountered a number of these and I have never stabbed any of them in
the back or gone "over their heads" without upfront notification. After
realizing that there will be no progress, it comes to a point of
acknowledging that to be the case, and stating that both cases (his and
mine) must now be escalated to the next level of management. (Sometimes this
will be IT Director or Board). I make sure that it doesn't become personal
(at least as far as I'm concerned; some COIs are actually very vindictive
when "threatened").
Maybe I do more entertaining presentations, maybe it's because my case is
better, but I don't recall ever losing one of these impasses :-) Then it
comes down to damage control and trying to make sure the sullen resentment
engendered in the COI by being publicly thwarted, is discharged, by
participation in something successful. (I always make sure the local
management get credit for all success; and the team (who really did the
work) are treated to a lavish party at my expense, if the company won't
stump for it.. (It never ceases to amaze me the number of corporations who
don't acknowledge outstanding work from their employees..."It's not our
policy" ... "Well, it bloody well should be, and if you won't do it, I'll do
it myself...") Especially true in the U.K. for some reason...)
I hasten to add that I have also worked for some corporations who DO gladly
acknowledge their staff. On at least two occasions I can remember being
surprised at how generous the Company was, once it was pointed out that some
of the people in the trenches were going the extra mile...
So, yes, it isn't always plain sailing and sometimes managers are left
feeling bad. I'm always sorry about that, but how they feel is their
problem... I'm not paid to win popularity contests...and I'm not so insecure
as a person that I need the approval of COIs :-)
Thanks Alistair; I appreciate you saying that.
Pete.
docd...@panix.com
Pete Dashwood <dash...@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
[snip]
>But, and this is
>the important point, there are also people in corner offices who are doing
>the very best they can. There are people who are the first to arrive and the
>last to leave, dedicated company people who put heart and soul into their
>jobs and are defined by the work they do. (No, I don't think this is
>healthy, but I'm certainly not going to denigrate these people or tar them
>with the same brush as COIs.)
Mr Dashwood, I waited a bit to respond to this... and I'll try to be as
plain as possible about it.
My views may be tainted by my position, after putting in my mandatory 'two
years' I fell/lied my way into a consulting/contracting/hired gun job...
and I've held those for the decades since. I'm hired - usually - to do a
job and not much else.
Likewise... if the precept is, almost Hippocratically, 'First, Do Your
Job' then it doesn't matter if the people are 'doing the very best they
can' or 'first to arrive and the last to leave, dedicated company people
who put their heart and soul into their jobs'; what matters is, quite
simply, Can They Do Their Jobs?
If they cannot then there might be many reasons for this... one is 'they
are incapable of doing their jobs'. If that is the case then to present
themselves as capable and to collect a salary for a job they cannot do is,
to my eyes, fraud and theft... in the same way as if I were to represent
myself as skilled in Java and .NET and other stuff I don't know.
Yes, I exaggerated my skills for a short while a few decades back... and I
got away with it and the statute of limitations for such has, I believe,
expired. A difference in quantity, however, may make for a difference in
quality - drop a pennyweight from waist-height onto someone's foot and
things more-or-less keep going on as they did, drop a rock weighing a few
stone in a similar manner and someone might be crippled for life - and for
someone to go to work year after year, decade after decade, being able
only to 'do their best' or 'show up first/leave last' when their job is
the allocation, co-ordination and motivation of personnel and resources
towards the accomplishment of a stated Executive goal means that (by this
definition) they are not capable of doing a Manager's job.
To expect consistent and repetitive fraud and theft to be met with the
kind of tolerance, generosity and openness-of-spirit you seem to be
espousing just might be, perhaps, beyond the capabilities of many folks...
myself, maybe, included.
Can you Do Your Job? Good... then do it. Are you incapable of Doing The
Job that you have been assigned? Do not accept the assignment... I've
turned down contracts many times with 'Sorry, my skill-set doesn't include
that', no shame involved. If you must accept the assignment - and I don't
know of too many folks who get told 'be a manager or you'll be fired' then
let it be known, loud and clear, in writing that your skill-set does not
include what is needed to accomplish the task.
Of course... in my experience it doesn't work that way. The variant of
Sturgeon's Law that I apply to folks in *any* job - butcher, baker,
candlestick-maker, doctor, lawyer, cook from New Dehli - is that 10% of
the folks doing that job have what I call 'the touch'... an instinctive,
intuitive grasp of what needs to be done and a delight in Doing It
Right... and the other 90% are busy praying '*Please* don't let me get
found out'... and, at times, busy making sure that nobody around them is
competent enough to see what frauds they are; I believe I've mentioned a
sort of 'Gresham's Law of Management' previously.
I'm not really sure how to wind this up in a memorable fashion... decades
on back I did my Basic Training for the United States Air Force Reserves
in the 3701st Basic Military Training Squadron at Lackland Air Force Base
in San Antonio, Texas, USA... got a tattoo on the one day they allowed us
a Town Pass, but that's another story... anyhow, the motto of our squadron
was a simple 'Lead, Follow or Get Out Of The Way'.
Can one allocate, co-ordinate and motivate (etc, see above)? Good, then
be a Manager.
Can't do that? Stand back, then, and be allocated and co-ordinated...
motivate yourself by the quality of your work.
Can't do either? Don't hinder folks who are just trying to Do Their Jobs.
Lead, Follow or Get Out Of The Way.
DD
Pete Dashwood
"Robert Jones" <rjo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176594225....@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
I actualy enjoyed this, Robert... it is almost surreal :-)
All of these factors are part of what we do and we have to deal with them.
(Please excuse the use of "you" in the rest of this document; it is NOT
targeted at you personally, it's just that I find the impersonal "one"
sounds pretentious, and I'm not comfoprtable with using it any more than
absolutely necessary...)
Attitude can sometimes be a decisive factor; if you really can't change
something, you may be able to change your mind about it, decide it is not so
important, and get on with what you're really trying to achieve. Of course,
if you go to work without really trying to achieve anything, other than pay
the rent, then you can't be surprised if the workplace is not an enjoyable
environment :-)
> Customers always want/buy/can afford/justify to their shareholders
> items/services that are the cheapest, most effective and speedily
> available.
>
I think that is a worthwhile goal. (Whether it is actually achievable or not
is quite another matter :-))
> Employees want as much money as possible for as little effort as
> possible in congenial surroundings.
Some certainly do... others are more realistic... others again are actually
happy to work and find making an effort brings rewards of a different
nature. Not everyone is as shallow as you suggest.
>
> Employers want as much work as possible for as little money as
> possible in the cheapest facilities practical.
>
See response immediately above. There are good and bad employers.
> If you pay peanuts you get monkeys
>
Not necessarily; I have worked with some very bright people who were paid
peanuts. They may have motivations other than money for working where they
do.
> If a million monkeys spent a thousand years bashing away on
> typewriters, one might write the works of Shakespeare (some might say
> that one did, only he didn't use a typewriter, I don't know what his
> handwriting was like, but I work in the NHS).
It might take more than a million and longer than the age of the Universe...
probably better to leave it to Will... :-)
>
> Many programmers and probably analysts wrote most of their programs
> online with two fingers. Managers paid them to do it like that. I
> wrote much of mine like that too.
I cannot recall ever being told to type with two fingers as a requirement
for receiving a paycheck.... :-)
Our experience differs here, apparently.
>
> Employers and employees are often unwilling (can not afford) to invest
> time and money in training to use software and equipment to best
> advantage.
Employers should allocate a percentage fo profit for re0investment in
training (wise ones do...)
Employees should not let anything as important as the skill sets with which
they will earn a living, be dependent on someone paying for their training.
In other words, if you lose the yearning for learning and justify this with
"Well, they won't pay for my training..." you deserve whatever you get.
These days you can acquire VERY valuable skills for free; all it takes is
time and effort. Attitude again.
Have a look at: http://www.w3schools.com/
A very large amount of the stuff I use every day, I acquired from this site.
Java... I bought a couple of books, C#... free video tutorials online...
There is really no excuse for people not to have marketable skills these
days. (But there are a thousand reasons you can justify not doing so :-))
>
> No one gets a job for life anymore and many didn't anyway.
Interesting you should say that. I came to this conclusion in 1975 and have
worked as a freelance ever since then.Many of my friends thought I was crazy
to give up the "security" of full time employment. (I came to the conclusion
this was always an illusion when I saw good people getting fired when it
suited the company, even after twenty years of faithful service... Sometimes
this was not malevolence on the part of the company, just simple economics
and survival.) I endorse your statement 100%. Time has shown it to be true.
>
> Employers are mostly in no position to promise a job for life.
Yep, neither should they. If we all took a bit more responsibility for
ourselves we wouldn't need "Nanny" employers or Governments to wipe our
noses for us...
>
> Restrictive practices and agreeing to inappropriate contract terms.
Don't do it. I cross out the ridiculous clauses in the contract before
signing it. If they don't like it (and usually they don't) I just say,
"Sorry, I can't agree to that." By this time I've had the interview and the
employer is waiting for me to start Monday. I've never had a pimp yet, who
wouldn't buckle... they don't relish explaining to their customer that I
dropped out because of unfair and restrictive practises in their contract.
Even if they didn't cave, I wouldn't go to a place where I had signed a
restrictive contract. The answer to getting these practises changed, is for
more of us to resist them.
>
> The need for employers and employees to protect and invest in
> intellectual property and rights while still managing to do their jobs
> effectively with several employees and employers.
My approach to this is that they have the full rights to anything I do or
produce for them while they are paying me, and can use it any way they see
fit. BUT, this is a non-exclusive right. I NEVER waive my own right to my
own IP. As for going down the road to their competitors and doing the same
solution, that's something they just have to suck on. Maybe there's an
incentive there for them to keep me... :-)
(If it was really critical to their competitive advantage, I'd negotiate and
point out that not allowing me to sell my skill causes me financial
disadvantage... Hopefully they'd take the hint. I would NOT blackmail them
or do anything unethical that could jeopardise their position with a
competitor, but I would certainly work for a competitor (and have done).
Never had a problem with this, but it is certainly a grey area. These "grey
areas" again come down to attitude. If you negotiate openly and fairly most
issues can be resolved.)
>
> Most software written on behalf of employers was not reviewed for a
> possible conflict with software patents, which were in any case
> legally disallowed for much of my career. Certainly not in my
> personal experience in a variety of companies and government
> organisations. When I have had to specify, write or amend a program
> to provide some funtionality, I have never had to check if someone
> else from another organisation had done something similar and patented
> it, so that my work was in contravention. I can not begin to imagine
> how much extra overhead and delay there would be if all organisations
> had to make such checks.
And the reason they don't is because they don't have to. If you build
something yourself, from scratch, you are not violating anyone's software
patent. The code you write is patently not a duplicate of their solution.
Algorithms cannot be patented as far as I know, and even if they could, a
simple addition of a step or modification of an existing one probably covers
it.
>
> Twiddling thumbs furiously.
>
Never had time to do that... :-) It's like beng bored; I don't recall ever
experiencing that either. Always something going on in my head...:-)
> Some of the programming and design standards I have seen.
>
Amen.
> Drinking at lunchtime.
>
Can be very useful...:-)
> Some of the progams and specifications that I have seen.
>
Amen.
> I have also seen some very well written specifications, programs and
> user documentation.
>
Amen.
> Cultures of working long hours.
>
> Getting a life
>
> Office parties.
>
> Perennial legislative changes necessitating software amendment.
>
> Tax structures.
>
> Political planning generally being subject to general election and
> short-term public opinion constraints.
>
> Alternatives to democracy have generally been much worse.
>
> Voter apathy and political skulduggery.
>
> Investing for the future in child and adult education.
>
> That's probably enough of this rant, I am certainly not perfect myself
> either. I have just enjoyed a very pleasant ride on my motorbike to
> Symonds Yat in Gloucestershire, in fine good and warm weather. I
> stopped on the way back to listen to the nightingales in a local
> nature reserve.
Ah, now THAT is time well spent... :-) I used to spend quite a bit of time
in the Wye Valey and had friends in both Hereford and Gloucester. It is
beautiful country and good for the soul... :-)
>
> (I tried posting this earlier but lost my connection, though it said
> it was sent, but now can't see it in the list, though it might turn up
> later. I have lately taken to saving posts separately while writing
> them to protect myself from such problems and this one is very similar
> to the other, though I think it is better for having had a little more
> time spent on it.)
>
Funny how time often improves things :-) (He reaches for a bottle of NZ
Cabernet Sauvignon (2002)...there is a satisfying popping sound (Damnation
on all screw tops)... End of message.
Pete.
> Robert
>
Pete Dashwood
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:evrv6s$na5$1...@reader2.panix.com...
It's a good motto.
Pete.
Alistair
BTW, I don't post code (as you correctly observed) as there are others
who can do better than myself and my ego is fragile enough that it
wouldn't stand the horse-whipping I would get. I have, however, passed
code to others via email who I felt would benefit from it and I have
posted code, for comment, on other newsgroups (Assembler) and that got
justly critiqued. I would also admit that I feel that I don't have the
time to post wads of code, as others do. I have work that I have to do
for others that should take priority but sloth wins out.
Alistair
wrote:
>
> > If you pay peanuts you get monkeys
>
> Not necessarily; I have worked with some very bright people who were paid
> peanuts. They may have motivations other than money for working where they
> do.
I always think that if you pay peanuts then you get monkeys working
for you. The more peanuts you poay then the bigger the monkey.
>
> > The need for employers and employees to protect and invest in
> > intellectual property and rights while still managing to do their jobs
> > effectively with several employees and employers.
>
> My approach to this is that they have the full rights to anything I do or
> produce for them while they are paying me, and can use it any way they see
> fit. BUT, this is a non-exclusive right. I NEVER waive my own right to my
> own IP. As for going down the road to their competitors and doing the same
> solution, that's something they just have to suck on. Maybe there's an
> incentive there for them to keep me... :-)
>
You should be aware that in the UK the intellectual property rights
exist with the author unless a waiver has been signed. I have
previously recounted an incident where a contractor refused his
employer the right to amend code that he had written (and he got a
handsome pay cheque for the IP rights). I doubt that many employers
realise the potential problems they face if coders get officious.
I have heard of cases where companies have infringed copyright and/or
IP rights by employing people/teams to write code with matching
functionality to a competitor. Usually this appears to be a case of
using code filched from the competitors' application but it can also
be where the employer has seen the competitors' code and
unintentionally writes the same code in subroutines. To avoid that
particular problem, companies often specifically employ people/teams
that have not had sight of the competitors' code.
I have signed a waiver to IP rights before now simply on the principle
that I doubted that I would ever want to be associated with the
application. Strangely, it is the only system upon which I have worked
that I know is still running.
Pete Dashwood
> BTW, I don't post code (as you correctly observed) as there are others
> who can do better than myself and my ego is fragile enough that it
> wouldn't stand the horse-whipping I would get. I have, however, passed
> code to others via email who I felt would benefit from it and I have
> posted code, for comment, on other newsgroups (Assembler) and that got
> justly critiqued. I would also admit that I feel that I don't have the
> time to post wads of code, as others do. I have work that I have to do
> for others that should take priority but sloth wins out.
>
programmers write programs and that means producing code.
I was being criticized for appearing not to support programmers when I have
been one all my working life and intend to go on being one.
Pete.
Howard Brazee
<dash...@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>I am getting a bit tired of certain people here ALWAYS seeing the trouble as
>being caused by management so, if I defend that point of view, it is
>because of that. I don't like unbalanced assessments.
Management is the easy target - it's either them or us, and they get
paid much more, and have the power to fire us. 8^)
>There ARE bad managers, just as there are crap programmers. Both varieties
>make life tiresome for those of us who just want to do a job as well as we
>know how, and get some satisfaction from it.
Ane *everybody* screws up, often without anything they can do about
it. (Which is why crime doesn't pay - eventually a screw up will
happen, and that's when criminals will pay).
I like the purpose of the design of sidewalks - with built in places
where they're supposed to fail. Good design doesn't assume
perfection - good design minimizes the effects of mistakes.
A bad design is our current password system that assumes people won't
act like people.
My wife was complaining about some minimum wage workers who were
incompetent for their jobs. I asked her - what should these people
be doing? We can't force competency. We could bribe them to stay
out of the workforce with more taxes to pay for more welfare - but
then we would have to pay much more to keep the competent people
serving burgers.
>When every programmer and staff member in the company is saintly and without
>fault, when these perfect superior people are NEVER wrong and ALWAYS right,
>THEN, I might agree they have the right to denigrate the people who manage
>them (be they idiots or saints).
We can't wait for a perfect citizen to vote out incompetent leaders,
and they can't wait until they are perfect to get rid of incompetent
workers. (I'm more afraid of the Righteous than of those who
recognize their limits).
We can be considerate and understanding though.
Howard Brazee
<alis...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Thanks Pete, a good response. I think that a problem with management
>is that we all think that we can do better if only we were in their
>shoes.
I doubt it. Think of sports stars. The stands are full of people
criticizing the quarterback - people who know that there's no way they
would survive on the field.
>The reality is that we would probably be worse at management
>than those we criticise. I know from having had disagreements with
>managers in the past that there often is much that they see that we do
>not know of, at the coalface, and I have certainly been grateful for
>their shields from time to time.
Even if I had the competence (which I don't) - I once had to fire
somebody. That was once too often, I won't be in that position
again.
Michael Mattias
> somebody. That was once too often, I won't be in that position
> again.
In my experience a common mistake is making the best <anything> the
<anything> manager.
Far too often this does nothing more than subtract a quality <anything>
while adding a crummy manager; a bad deal no matter how you do the math..
MCM
docd...@panix.com
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On 14 Apr 2007 13:42:36 -0700, "Alistair"
><alis...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>>The reality is that we would probably be worse at management
>>than those we criticise. I know from having had disagreements with
>>managers in the past that there often is much that they see that we do
>>not know of, at the coalface, and I have certainly been grateful for
>>their shields from time to time.
>
>Even if I had the competence (which I don't) - I once had to fire
>somebody. That was once too often, I won't be in that position
>again.
I am reminded of a tale, perhaps apochryphal: in a class at Harvard a
professor gave an example to a roomful of MBA candidates, a conflict
between a line-worker and a supervisor. One student said that the
line-worker should be fired... after all, anyone can work an
assembley-line but a good supervisor is hard to find.
The professor left the lectern, stood in front of the student and declaime
that this was the *stupidest* thing he'd heard in all his years of
teaching and that he would not tolerate someone capable of generating this
kind of nonsense in his class... and the student was to get out, *now*.
The student (and the rest of the class) sat, dumbfounded... and the
professor then swept the books and papers (this was in the Oldene Dayse,
before students had computers) on to the floor and shouted 'GET OUT OF MY
CLASS, *NOW*!!!'
The student gathered his stuff and left the room... and then, when the
professor had returned to the lectern and resumed the class, crept back in
the door and sat in the last row.
The professor then stopped the discussion and called out 'So, Mr Jones...
tell us all what it is like to be fired.'
DD
docd...@panix.com
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
[snip]
>My wife was complaining about some minimum wage workers who were
>incompetent for their jobs. I asked her - what should these people
>be doing? We can't force competency.
Leaving aside the question of 'who hired the incompetents?' - which, of
course, places the blame on Management - I would ask 'what is there that
encourages/rewards anything other than the 'some pretend to work while
others pretend to pay them' mentality?'... which brings into question the
entire Corporate Structure of Labor, Management and Executive groups.
(my Sainted Paternal Grandfather - may he sleep with the angels! - used to
say, long before things like Career Ladders and Empowerment were ever
buzzwords, 'you can tell who gets a piece of the till by the way they
move')
DD
Pete Dashwood
That you would feel this way, shows you were probably a good manager,
Howard.
I have fired less than half a dozen people in 20 years and every time I
looked on it as a failure on my part as well as theirs. It is never easy,
and it is always a last resort after warnings and attempts to redirect, or
because they have done something so outrageous and beyond the pale that it
is just unacceptable.
It is the horrible little weak pygmies of managers who actually enjoy firing
people. Fortunately, these guys don't usually last too long...
Pete.
Pete Dashwood
"Michael Mattias" <mmat...@talsystems.com> wrote in message
news:j5QUh.17102$Um6....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
Many organizations (and people) seem to fail to realize that there is a
specific skill set required to manage, and it is not in our genes...
It can be acquired painfully over time; training is a much more effective
route.
Pete.
Pete Dashwood
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:f00urm$jjt$1...@reader2.panix.com...
innocence, done something that caused my manager to lose his annual
increment :-) It was political, not technical, but being young at the time I
did not have the broader vision I now enjoy. I can say that had he not lied
and prevaricated in the first place, the situation could not have arisen.)
Not only did he fire me, he promised I would never work again. "Your
programming career is over."
(In those days the City of Auckland had less than half a million people and
there were no more than 20 IBM mainframe sites within a 15 mile radius of
the city centre. It was a small IT community. He went to the IBM User Group
and told those there assembled that he had fired me for disgraceful and
unethical conduct and would strongly recommend no-one else ever employ me.)
To say that this guy was a vindictive tyrant might be construed as sour
grapes on my part, so I won't say that... :-)
I remember how it felt. I went home to find my wife packing; she had decided
to leave me. (In retrospect, I don't really blame her, but that's another
story... :-) Obviously, she didn't know I had been fired so that didn't
figure in her decision. Because we both worked she owned half of the car and
I couldn't afford to stay in our flat without her contribution, so within a
couple of days of finding myself alone and unemployable, I also had no
transport and nowhere to live... :-) (Yeah, I can laugh now, but it wasn't
funny then.... :-))
The point is, I have never forgotten how that felt, and would think long and
carefully before imposing it on someone else. (And then it would never be
with spite or vindictiveness, only because it was necessary.)
Pete.
Pete Dashwood
Fair comment. I have nothing more to add :-)
Pete.
Pete Dashwood
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:f00v9i$6fl$1...@reader2.panix.com...
I don't see "Empowerment" as a buzzword (but that might be because I'm
wearing my Manager hat as I write this:-)). I think it is really important
to give people the "space" to make decisions and accept responsibility,
always providing support for that process, and guidance if they ask for it.
My experience has been that people grow when this happens and can then take
more responsibility, and so on. (Ultimately, I'd like to get everybody doing
my job for me, so I can just collect my cheque and say hello occasionally...
:-) Hasn't happened yet, but I live in hope...)
I think your Grandaddy was right about the change in walk of those who have
a piece of the till; I know I walk differently when a dividend cheque or
Bond payment arrives :-) The spring in my step soon dissipates when the
bills come in... :-)
Pete.
docd...@panix.com
Pete Dashwood <dash...@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
><docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:f00urm$jjt$1...@reader2.panix.com...
[snip]
>> The professor then stopped the discussion and called out 'So, Mr Jones...
>> tell us all what it is like to be fired.'
[snip]
>The point is, I have never forgotten how that felt, and would think long and
>carefully before imposing it on someone else.
I believe it was Aeschylus who said 'Great hardships make for later
entertainments'... and perhaps that leads well into The Other Side of the
Coin.
Aeschylus is remembered by many as being a playwright... but he was also a
'general' (Gr. 'strategos') and it was reported that this rank was what he
had inscribed on his tombstone and nothing about his dramatic victories.
I've found sports metaphors abound in the workplace - 'The football is in
your court' is one that I've heard - and these are nuisances to me for two
reasons. First, I don't play or follow sports and second my training as a
Classicist causes me to try to go to the source for things... and sports
are, rather often, a kind of ritualised combat.
(this can make for Big Laffs when someone will say 'We need someone to
throw a real Hail Mary now'... and into the silence I'll pour 'Well, if
you think it'll do any good, why not? Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus
tecum, Benedicta tu in mulieribus...')
Anyhow... any kind of soldier, at any time, may be called upon to make
decisions which can cause death for himself, his comrades-in-arms
(literally) or his subordinates. Don't like the possibility? Don't
enlist, don't accept the promotion or (in times of conscription) don't
stay in a country with an extradition treaty... or as it has been said
before:
Lead, Follow or Get Out Of The Way
DD
docd...@panix.com
Pete Dashwood <dash...@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
><docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:f00v9i$6fl$1...@reader2.panix.com...
[snip]
>> (my Sainted Paternal Grandfather - may he sleep with the angels! - used to
>> say, long before things like Career Ladders and Empowerment were ever
>> buzzwords, 'you can tell who gets a piece of the till by the way they
>> move')
>
>I don't see "Empowerment" as a buzzword (but that might be because I'm
>wearing my Manager hat as I write this:-)). I think it is really important
>to give people the "space" to make decisions and accept responsibility,
>always providing support for that process, and guidance if they ask for it.
Any job requires both responsibility and authority to accomplish... if you
want the floors swept the sweeper needs enough authority (in terms, say,
of a key to the door-lock) to get the broom out of the closet.
Archimedes said 'Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I
will move the world'... likewise, give someone the tools and support and
let the do their jobs.
[snip]
>I think your Grandaddy was right about the change in walk of those who have
>a piece of the till; I know I walk differently when a dividend cheque or
>Bond payment arrives :-) The spring in my step soon dissipates when the
>bills come in... :-)
It is not only when the payment comes in... someone who has a piece of the
till learns that what they do affects what winds up in their pocket. They
look for things, they tend to things in a way that someone whose paycheck
is the same 'no matter what' usually does not.
DD
Alistair
> On 14 Apr 2007 13:42:36 -0700, "Alistair"
>
I was once instrumental in initiating the process by which someone I
worked with got fired (and I had the final decision). I don't regret
it, but I do regret being the corner office idiot who hired the chump
in the first place!
Alistair
wrote:
> <docdw...@panix.com> wrote in messagenews:f00urm$jjt$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> > In article <2qh7231fi9tlotbqmdi3afv7ue7fsn2...@4ax.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
In this pygmies' defense I would like to point out that the guy that I
fired was totally incompetent (however, he did pass the interview and
that makes me doubt my ability to gauge how good a candidate is) and
he was about to blast his large redundancy package (from another firm)
on a flash motor so I started the inevitable process so that he
wouldn't be entirely lacking in monetary resources when he hit the
street.
Alistair
wrote:
> <docdw...@panix.com> wrote in messagenews:f00v9i$6fl$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> > In article <37h7235mfp72i68g1vc2dv7hatkjh56...@4ax.com>,
> > Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>
> > [snip]
>
> >>My wife was complaining about some minimum wage workers who were
> >>incompetent for their jobs. I asked her - what should these people
> >>be doing? We can't force competency.
>
> > Leaving aside the question of 'who hired the incompetents?' - which, of
> > course, places the blame on Management - I would ask 'what is there that
> > encourages/rewards anything other than the 'some pretend to work while
> > others pretend to pay them' mentality?'... which brings into question the
> > entire Corporate Structure of Labor, Management and Executive groups.
>
> > (my Sainted Paternal Grandfather - may he sleep with the angels! - used to
> > say, long before things like Career Ladders and Empowerment were ever
> > buzzwords, 'you can tell who gets a piece of the till by the way they
> > move')
>
> > DD
>
> I don't see "Empowerment" as a buzzword (but that might be because I'm
> wearing my Manager hat as I write this:-)). I think it is really important
> to give people the "space" to make decisions and accept responsibility,
> always providing support for that process, and guidance if they ask for it.
> My experience has been that people grow when this happens and can then take
> more responsibility, and so on. (Ultimately, I'd like to get everybody doing
> my job for me, so I can just collect my cheque and say hello occasionally...
> :-) Hasn't happened yet, but I live in hope...)
>
Yea Gods! We agree on something!