Is Clarion the Best?
JB
have done some VB development. Recently I got a 60 day version of Delphi
because I'm just looking for something that will provide the tools to
rapidly develop an application with the specs I want without having to look
for a needle in a stack of needles. ;-)
BTW, I'm not a newbie to OOP. I've been doing it for 5 years. However, what
I find with Microsoft products is that the tools and wizards are difficult
to modify and short on decent documentation. At the least you have to
subscribe to magazines that tell you how to do what, IMHO, the software
should do in the first place. At worst, you have to pay for third-party
software that is advertised in those magazines (to the tune of about $300 to
$1000) or, you do all the development yourself and it just takes too much
time.
In a nutshell, I'm sick of Microsoft and I'm looking for a way to develop
applications that does not take so much time. I talked to someone recently
who recommended Clarion. It seems a bit expensive, but may be worth the time
I would otherwise have to spend in development.
Have any of you here had similar experiences and can you tell me about them?
I would appreciate any advice.
Tim Shelton
Take it from me -- Clarion is the most RAD environment I have ever seen for
database applications. In the windows environment I have use VB version
3-6, Powerbuilder versions 5-7, and have toyed with Delphi since version 2
and these don't come close to Clarion when it comes to database
applications.
Tim Shelton
"JB" <j...@adelaidehills.com.au> wrote in message
news:hym36.7$as2....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
Rudi Werner
I worked years with Visual objects, foxpro, Visal basic and know for
more then 5 years
Clarion is my number one RAD tool.
No other tool has such level of productivity.
"JB" <j...@adelaidehills.com.au> schreef in bericht
news:hym36.7$as2....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
Roberto Artigas Jr
Having been in I.S. for 25+ years I have used MS C/C++ 1.0 to MSVS 6.0,
Delphi 1-5, CBuilder 1-4, BC C/C++ 1.0 to 5.02, more mainframe and other pc
languages than I can name, and having tried out several other environments,
so far clarion is solving my requirements better than any other.
There are some things that I still do in c and c++ since I have gigabytes of
source code in those languages, but for application development, clarion is
doing it for me so far.
Enjoy!
Roberto Artigas Jr
"Tim Shelton" <tim.s...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3a4e0001$1...@news.softvelocity.com...
Dennis E. Evans
"JB" <j...@adelaidehills.com.au> wrote in message
> I'm primarily a FoxPro (since VFP 3.0 and before in DOS and
<snip>
> I would appreciate any advice.
First since this is a Clarion news group I suspect most of the responses
will be somewhat predictable. That being said I will offer my own two
bits.
1. Documentation. printed manuals available at additional cost
I personally do not have any problems with the docs except they could be
cross referenced a little better and the template stuff is not well
documented. One caveat, you are buying a compiler and a programming
language the docs are written with some assumed knowledge. ie they are
documentation not tutorials.
A short tutorial, printed, does ship with the product, actually a fairly
decent one.
2. There is quite a bit of third party stuff available, how much or what
will you need/want depends on what you are trying to accomplish and several
other variables. Maybe some, maybe none, maybe a lot. That is not
specific to Clarion happens with all tools, VB, Delphi whatever.
3. OOP might as well jump in with both feet, OOP is not going anywhere.
4. Magazines, one language specific magazine is available, a good one,
although it is a tad bit expensive. Books, one for an older version (1.5
or 2) may still be available, decent book but somewhat dated.
Okay all that out of the way, I use the product I like the product.
I plan to continue using the product until I find something better.
Modifying the default behavior is easy, easy and hard are relative terms.
The Clarion language is the biggest advantage, that is why changing stuff is
so easy.
Over all Clarion is a good product, it is not perfect and it has some
problems. If you write data base type apps for the desk top then you would
be hard pressed to find a better tool, that would be an opinion.
Two notes, do not limit yourself to one tool or product.
Different tools for different tasks.
RAD, well the tools today may allow faster development than they did a few
years ago, but there is nothing rapid about the process.
Dennis
John Fligg
Clarion v Microsoft - No contest. Knock out in 1 second ...
I am new to Clarion (2 weeks or so). I am used to Access and VB6, the latter
of which I thought was the bees knees.
A colleague has used Clarion for years and tried to convert me a long time
ago and I have only recently given in.
Believe me, I was a fool as this is the most impressive piece of kit I have
come across in a long time. Productivity has just hit the roof compared to
VB.
The cost is well worth it believe me and if for home use then fine, but if
for public consumption then a few add-ons are desireable. However that could
be recouped from the client and you're not talking of a lot. They really do
make life easy.
DON'T HESITATE - get it. I am not biased believe me.
Oh, and the newsgroups are phenominal.
--
Kindest regards
JOHN FLIGG
EQUUS TECHNOLOGIES LTD.
PO Box 19
Harleston
IP20 0DZ
Tel/Fax : 01986 788271
EMail : jo...@equustechnologies.co.uk
Internet : http://www.equustechnologies.co.uk
This email contains confidential information belonging to the sender. The
information is intended only for the use of the individual or organisation
named above.
If you are not the intended recipient then any disclosure, copying,
distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this
email is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this transmission in error, please notify us
immediately, and permanently delete this message.
Any attached file has been checked for viruses. Although we employ virus
protection software, we can not guarantee that attachments are free from
viruses. It is a condition of our supplying the attachment to you that any
liability on our part in respect of, or arising directly or indirectly out
of any virus is excluded. Therefore please run virus-checking software and
check the attachment thoroughly before using it.
"JB" <j...@adelaidehills.com.au> wrote in message
news:hym36.7$as2....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
Hector Pabon
Go for Clarion! I have been using Clarion for about one year and it is a
great development tool. I have been on the IT field for 20+ years.
My best for you,
Hector Pabon
news.softvelocity.com
I only want to say that no other newgroup is bether than this one. Thats
because people here are using Clarion - so people here are less frustrated
:-)
Then we have people here that are extremely experienced, and extremely good
at sharing their understanding with others. I have posted questions here
over the years, and within no time at all the problem is history. Without
using names, I can say that I have always wondered why som of the
programmers here are willing to use so much of their time helping others.
Maybe they just are really nice people ... I have been in manny other
newgroups/forums, bacause I allso use things like VB, C++, Delphi, etc. etc.
Well what can I say, its good to be back in the Clarion news group where
things get done, and problems become history in no time at all.
I worked in a programming firm with manny good programmers. That environment
have never been as produktiv as the one here in this forum.
Knowing what I do today, there is no money in the world that would get me to
stop using Clarion. Because then I would be stuck with VB, VC++, Delphi
etc.etc. - and the other newsgroups/forums. I have used these other tools
for some time, and some are very good for som jobs. But nothing is good fore
everything (exept Clarion :-) , and I find myself trying to do as much as
possible using Clarion, and to get others I work with to do the project in
Clarion. Well most of the time we get things done in less than halv the time
when we use Clarion for most og the work.
Happy new year !!!
JB <j...@adelaidehills.com.au> skrev i
meldingsnyheter:hym36.7$as2....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
Robert J. Lerner
Thank you for your balanced and valuable post.
I would add this: I would give overriding importance to an evaluation
of SV's future viability, and ability to stay with, support, and grow
the product. They've been in business for about 8 months (so there is
a record), and the poster might get a sense of that by digging around
a bit in prior NG postings.
Richard Rogers
Lerner) wrote:
>I would add this: I would give overriding importance to an evaluation
>of SV's future viability, and ability to stay with, support, and grow
>the product. They've been in business for about 8 months (so there is
>a record), and the poster might get a sense of that by digging around
>a bit in prior NG postings.
It is true that SV has only been around 8 months. Clarion however has
been around over 8 years, even longer than VB. If I were to pick a
product that is about to die on the vine by that criteria it would be
Delphi. But you and I BOTH know THAT ain't gonna happen. <G> Why? A
dedicated user base and a proven platform. Even if it goes through
owners like a baby goes through diapers, it is a product with value
and so continues to thrive. Delphi is a striking example that it
doesn't matter WHO owns a product in terms of whether or not that
product will remain viable. BTW, who owns it this week? I've lost
track.
b. rgds.
Richard (The Sylkie)
Oslo
Sherman Dunnam
Clarion. Is it perfect? Absolutely not, no programming language is.
The best thing about Clarion in my opinion is the application generator.
This is a template driven generator that, given a data dictionary, will
generate the source code for a complete working application. The app is
sometimes usable as is (for _extremely_ simple programs) but most often
needs substantial hand coding to really be complete. Custom templates are
available to do a wide variety of jobs and if you take the time to learn the
template language you can write your own, or modify the existing ones to add
functionality or adjust the look and feel of your apps.
I like having a 'skeleton' app to work with, just adding functionality to
individual procedures as needed. In my 'day job' I am the sole IS person
for a company with 26 sites. I provide all network design, support, custom
programming etc. to the entire company. If I didn't have Clarion I wouldn't
be able to provide teh custom programs, period. Nothing else will do the
job as quickly. All my apps may not be 'shrinkwrap ready' but they do the
job in day to day use.
Having said that, I also use VB occasionally for non-database type apps
where I basically need some network functionality on one or two windows. I
also have to use Access occasionally. Given a choice I use Clarion.
HTH,
Sherman
Eric Churton
Agreed! - and the best thing about Clarion is that even after using it for
years it is so rich that one has at least one revelation a day <G>
Every time I want to take time off to get into another language (I have
already programmed for years in assembler, C, and ..er..DBase - but I avoid
them nowadays) I suddenly realise that learning more about Clarion will
repay me treble what I would achieve using that time with some other
language.
But, just a small warning. Using Clarion is infectious, and once you catch
it it is very difficult to get rid of. And you will definitely be spoiled
for using other languages.
--
best wishes
Eric Churton
The Simsoft Templates for plug-in on-screen keyboards and keypads
http://www.vertigo.co.za/simplesoft/
"news.softvelocity.com" <po...@bpu.no> wrote in message
news:3a4e...@news.softvelocity.com...
Russell B. Eggen
--
Russell B. Eggen
SoftVelocity, Inc.
"Richard Rogers" <syl...@powertech.no> wrote in message
news:3a4f413b...@news.softvelocity.com...
Ville Vahtera
"Eric Churton" <bus...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
news:3a4f...@news.softvelocity.com...
> Hi all,
>
> But, just a small warning. Using Clarion is infectious, and once you catch
> it it is very difficult to get rid of. And you will definitely be spoiled
> for using other languages.
>
I second that! It's just like good smoke, hard to get rid of it :-)
I understand all the other language users (VB, VC++...) since
IDE between this happends to be quite similar, but with CW
IDE you need to adopt new way to accomplish working ap-
plication and for that moment try to displace VB, VC++, Delphi...
way to approach it.
Rgds,
Ville
Robert J. Lerner
>It is true that SV has only been around 8 months.
I didn't 'splain myself well- my suggestion evolved from the notion
that 8 months <is> a long-enough time for doing some assessments about
SV and its situation.
> Clarion however has
>been around over 8 years, even longer than VB.
But its longevity was also true with TS. And I long-believed that CW,
under TS, was going to effectively die by (this) year's end.
> If I were to pick a
>product that is about to die on the vine by that criteria it would be
>Delphi.
But Richard, isn't Delphi's user base <much> bigger than CW's? And
hasn't Delphi kept up with technology more than CW? If so, I think the
comparison is kinda spurious. I would guess that Delphi is a much more
saleable (to investors) product.
Vince D. Kimball
back. It's still the same corporation, isn't it?
In article <3a4f413b...@news.softvelocity.com>, syl...@powertech.no
says...
Richard Rogers
Lerner) wrote:
>But Richard, isn't Delphi's user base <much> bigger than CW's? And
>hasn't Delphi kept up with technology more than CW? If so, I think the
>comparison is kinda spurious. I would guess that Delphi is a much more
>saleable (to investors) product.
That's true. But that Delphi has a larger customer base is no suprise.
It's base language is Pascal and Pascal has been the favorite
"tutoring" language of most software technology programs. It's a good
language. And Delphi is a sweet platform for it. But it still takes a
considerably longer time to create a given relational database
application in Delphi than in Clarion as long as you are willing to
accept the basic application as generated by the app generator. Beyond
that, things get a little more difficult to discern. For instance, it
is extremely simple to integrate all kinds of OCX controls in Delphi.
It is not quite so simple in Clarion, but it is certainly possible to
do.
But try to do simple file/record manipulation in code in Delphi, or
VB. Very difficult. With Clarion it's a snap. VB has some additional
tools that make this kind of thing a little easier. But then you have
a slow loading memory hog instead of a simple clean executable.
Tradeoffs all over the place eh? In the end, it's best not to depend
on any single tool. I've settled on a triad of C++, Clarion, Perl.
Each have their strength and weakness, but together they cover just
abot anything. And everyone of them has been around far longer than
Delphi or VB.
I think Clarion has a very good chance of survivng this latest shift
in fortune and coming out smelling like a rose.
George Riddell
changed their name back to the well known Borland from Inprise. Their focus
nowadays is on Java and their application server. Delphi is just one of
their products. It is pretty solid company with 3 years of operating capital
in the bank.
Delphi is good, but Clarion is superior!
Regards,
George.
Thom Halvorsen
available in Delphi:
- a proper multiselect grid using Shift/Ctrl for selecting
- a split bar
- an Outlook bar ( which seems to be becoming a Win standard)
- control over 3d or flat look for all UI controls. Flat look seems to be
becoming popular
now. A sort of half 3d look.
I am able to do some this stuff via code but it would be nice to get it out
of the box.
Oh, and on the DB driver side, a native Interbase driver would be nice.
I have been doing Delphi programming now for about 1 1/2 years and I am
longing to get
back to CW and its great language.
Thom
"Richard Rogers" <syl...@powertech.no> wrote in message
news:3a50a9c4...@news.softvelocity.com...
Richard Rogers
<th...@paperless.no> wrote:
>Now if only CW could get some of their UI controls up to par with what is
>available in Delphi:
Gotta agree. The interface objects for CW can most generously be
described as "clunky." If Languages were cars, Clarion would be a
Checker. Built like a brick and looks like one. <G>
Let's see, C++ would be a Ferrari, Delphi might be a Fiat and VB would
be a Nash Rambler.
Craig E Ransom
> Clarion would be a
> Checker. Built like a brick and looks like one. <G>
>
And keeps running and running and running ....
-- Craig (The Data Ferret)
http://www.pcferret.com/ for RARS, NetClip
http://www.pcferret.com/teletools.html for Telephony
http://www.pcferret.com/gps.html for GPS!
Virtual Access 5.50 build 311 Win98
http://counter.li.org ID #184149
"Do not meddle in the affairs of FERRETS..."
Ben E. Brady
Ben E. Brady
Brady & Associates, LLC.
"Craig E Ransom" <dataf...@pcferret.com> wrote in message
news:VA.000015c...@pcferret.com...
Thom Halvorsen
Thom
"Craig E Ransom" <dataf...@pcferret.com> wrote in message
news:VA.000015c...@pcferret.com...
tjm...@singnet.com.sg
From 1989 to 1998, I was programming in other languages (Clipper, VB, C,
C++, VFP, Powerbuilder etc) as the organisations that I worked for, do not
use Clarion.
If I had the choice, I would be using Clarion.
I am currently in charge of the MIS department and I am using Clarion
together with Crystal Reports.
Thomas Mendoza
Royal Selangor Singapore
"JB" <j...@adelaidehills.com.au> wrote in message
news:hym36.7$as2....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
Dave Schwartz
For what it is worth, I stepped into Clarion in 1991. I would make a few
comments about my development during that period:
1. Clarion is, hands-down the best development tool on the market for
developing desktop applications. I can develope faster than with whatever
else is out there. (I have been doing this stuff isnce 1978, so I have used
a lot of development tools.)
2. Expect some struggles to get everything to work. Now, all the other
products have to be struggled with as well, but the struggles with Clarion
are somewhat tougher. In spite of the struggles, you will still be way ahead
of the curve in terms of development time.
3. SV is not Microsoft. That is the bad news. There are times when Clarion
has been way behind the developments in the industry.
4. SV is not Microsoft. That is the good news. They do not ship "gold"
versions with 20,000 bugs. Forty or fifty, maybe, but not 20,000.
5. Since the user base is smaller than Microsoft (or Borland or any other,
for that matter), there are not as many 3rd party tool developers. One would
assume that this would lead to higher prices. My experience is that it does
not!
As way of an example or two:
A. We use an installer which integrates nicely into Clarion (written by
Friedrich Linder) that is the best I have ever used.
B. Mike Hanson's stuff is superb. He writes templates for everything from
super browses to file utilities.
C.The Sterling Data templates work great.
D. Gitano software's GReg is just a tremendous copy protecion and
registration system.
E. Capesoft's products are tremendous.
There are certainly others, but I am familiar with these because I have
purchased them. Have I ever had a problem with them? You bet I have. And the
tech support from each of them has been out of this world.
In short, the 3rd party vendors do just exactly what they say they are going
to do, they sell their products at reasonable prices, and support them in a
timely manner.
6. Understand Clarion's development cycle. That is, the company's
development of the language. They typically release the newest version in
beta form, and these are subject to be more effort than they are worth TO
SOME PEOPLE. The more advanced betas get a high degree of stability and are
"safer" to use.
7. The strength of this product goes beyond its RAD abilities. The real
strength is the Clarion community. As an example, as we closed in on Y2k,
there was an announcement that a date problem still existed. In a matter of
a couple of days there was a free, easy to apply workaround posted by
ProDomus, a third party developer. And I am sure that if it hadn't been them
it would have been one of a dozen other 3rd-party companies.
It is ironic that the company with the least amount of tech support
resources (among development languages) has the best tech support in the
business. It is the news groups that provide this support. And htey do it in
a timely manner.
When I have a question, I post it and begin checking back in a matter of
minutes. I cannot tell you how many times I have received reliable answers
inside of 10 minutes. And if the fix doesn't work, it is amazing the lengths
the people on this newsgroup will go to in order to solve MY problem.
Summary
If you are tired of struggling ALONE with your development endeavors, this
is the place. Clarion isn't perfect. It has its quirks. Maybe more than most
languages these days. I don't know. But the struggle is worth it.
Kind Regards,
Dave Schwartz
Richard Rogers
<DaveSc...@HorseStreet.Com> wrote:
>Summary
>If you are tired of struggling ALONE with your development endeavors, this
>is the place. Clarion isn't perfect. It has its quirks. Maybe more than most
>languages these days. I don't know. But the struggle is worth it.
Dave,
Every point is spot on.
It's the language ya hate to love. <G>
Roberto Artigas Jr
Enjoy!
Roberto
"Richard Rogers" <syl...@powertech.no> wrote in message
news:3a521a5...@news.powertech.no...