avcall, callback, trampoline, vacall, etc

[gnui...@hotmail.com]

Dear Programming Gurus,

These concepts are rather well talked about .. over the internet and
usenet, however, I cant find any clear explanation.

avcall, callback, trampoline, vacall, etc

I looked in a book of C programming, ie k&r and also the rationale for
C, an old copy and could not find any explanation.

I know that javascript books talk a lot about callbacks and there is
the style of programming involving writing callbacks and registering
them. Unfortunately, in the age when I took my C class, there was no
discussion along these lines.

Can anyone give clear definition, example, benefits, variations,
origin or citation to a paper where it originated and explained first,
as well as some modern text that does the better than most job of
illustrating it and its applications.

[James Kuyper]

When a C function takes as an argument a pointer to another function,
the function pointed at is often referred to as a callback function.
Examples from the C standard library include qsort() and bsearch(),
where the callback function is called in order to determine the relative
order of the records processed by those functions.

I know nothing about vacall or avcall. I've heard of trampolines in the
context of computer programming, but know little about them.

For all questions like this, I would recommend starting with wikipedia -
it generally does a good job of explaining computer-oriented technical
terms like these; if you don't find it there, try google.

[fma...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 10:04:16 PM UTC+2, James Kuyper wrote:
> On 10/25/2012 03:24 PM, gnui...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Dear Programming Gurus,
>
> > These concepts are rather well talked about .. over the internet and
> > usenet, however, I cant find any clear explanation.
> > avcall, callback, trampoline, vacall, etc
>

> I know nothing about vacall or avcall. I've heard of trampolines in the
> context of computer programming, but know little about them.
>

On a multi-processor system, one CPU boots, and the others use a "trampoline" code (usually prepared by the first one) to boot.

Ciao!

[James Kuyper]

That's one type of trampoline described at
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline_%28computing%29>

Most of the other types of trampolines described there seem more likely
to be relevant to his question that that type.

[fma...@gmail.com]

Curious! I never heard this term used outside the SMP development. There's always something to learn..

Ciao!

[Paavo Helde]

gnui...@hotmail.com wrote in news:dfa26195-ed53-41e7-afb6-6f59d556a154@
3g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:

I think you included comp.lang.c++ in the posted newsgroups by a mistake.
In C++, the callbacks have been mostly replaced by virtual functions
(usually declared in abstract base classes). Also the vacall tricks for
passing multiple arguments at once are not really needed in C++, you can
always pass a suitable container of (possibly variant) arguments. Anyway,
in this day and this age, you should look in wikipedia first instead of
K&R books.

HTH
Paavo

PS. Followup set to comp.lang.c

[Cortez]

There's a trampoline function in Clojure, but I really don't know much
about it, or whether it's even the same thing as you're talking about.
This article seems to suggest it is:

http://pramode.net/clojure/2010/05/08/clojure-trampoline/

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:04:10 -0400, James Kuyper
<james...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On 10/25/2012 03:24 PM, gnui...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Dear Programming Gurus,
>>
>> These concepts are rather well talked about .. over the internet and
>> usenet, however, I cant find any clear explanation.
>>
>> avcall, callback, trampoline, vacall, etc

^^^1^^ ^^^^2^^^ ^^^^^3^^^^ ^^^4^^

GIYF!

1) Google for "avcall". For me, it was the first link.

2) Google for "callback". For me, it was the first link.

3) Google for "programming trampoline". For me, it was the first
link.

4) This one is a bit tougher. Noting that avcall got me a .h, I
Googled for "vacall.h". For me, the fourth link is for the vacall(3)
Linux man page.

[snip]

>> Can anyone give clear definition, example, benefits, variations,
>> origin or citation to a paper where it originated and explained first,
>> as well as some modern text that does the better than most job of
>> illustrating it and its applications.

Did you even bother looking first?

I had only heard of two of them and was able to find all four
fairly easily.

>When a C function takes as an argument a pointer to another function,
>the function pointed at is often referred to as a callback function.
>Examples from the C standard library include qsort() and bsearch(),
>where the callback function is called in order to determine the relative
>order of the records processed by those functions.
>
>I know nothing about vacall or avcall. I've heard of trampolines in the
>context of computer programming, but know little about them.
>
>For all questions like this, I would recommend starting with wikipedia -
>it generally does a good job of explaining computer-oriented technical
>terms like these; if you don't find it there, try google.

Agreed about Wikipedia's reliability in this area, but I prefer
to use Google first. One can find out about more groups that way and
even lanaguage standards. If Google returns a Wikipedia link, I will
usually have a look.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[James K. Lowden]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:46:59 -0500
Paavo Helde <myfir...@osa.pri.ee> wrote:

> In C++, the callbacks have been mostly replaced by virtual functions

In C++, callbacks have been mostly replaced by functors and, more
recently, lambdas.

FTFY! :-)

--jkl

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Ironically, SMP development is a use I hadn't come across!

[Joe Pfeiffer]

gnui...@hotmail.com writes:

> Dear Programming Gurus,
>
> These concepts are rather well talked about .. over the internet and
> usenet, however, I cant find any clear explanation.
>
> avcall, callback, trampoline, vacall, etc

Speaking only for myself, I found the idea of a 'callback' one that was
really easy to describe, but really hard to understand for a long time.
I see some other posters have already pointed you at google on this one,
but I'll give it a shot anyway.

The big thing about callbacks is that everything you know about writing
a program is turned completely on its head. It sounds like you may have
learned C when I did (or at any rate before these newfangles concepts
came about). If so, you're used to the idea that your main() is
basically in control, and calls functions you write, more or less one at
a time in an order you specify. So first you call a function (or some
functions) that read your input; then you call a function that gets some
work done; then you call a function that writes your output. It's
likely your code isn't that clean in real life; you probably actually
read a little bit of input, do a little bit of work, write a little bit
of output, lather rinse repeat. Doesn't matter, you're still in control
of when your functions get called.

For callback-based programming, forget all that. Flush it.

There are areas where a completely different paradigm is used. A good example
of one of these areas is writing a GUI interface. The big thing about a
GUI interface is that you don't have control of the order in which input
arrives, and you need to do something about whatever the crazy user
does. In this world, somebody else writes something called an "event
loop". The event loop just sits out there waiting for input (maybe a
button click, maybe information that you need to redraw your window,
maybe a timeout, maybe something else), and when the input happens the
event loop code calls a function you wrote to handle that particular
input. Your function is called a 'callback'.

So that's the idea. You write a function to handle the user clicking
the 'OK' button. You write a function to handle a window resize event.
You write a function to... whatever. You pass a pointer to your
function to the event loop code (this is called 'registering' your
callback), and just sit back and wait for your code to be called.

Another application of callbacks is in FUSE (Filesystem in User SpacE)
filesystems. I will somewhat immodestly suggest that a tutorial on FUSE
that you can find at http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer/fuse-tutorial/ may
help you.

[Les Cargill]

"Callbacks" are a method of storing pointers to functions
and exploiting them.

I'm answering from comp.lang.c so one thing I would start with is to
learn the concept of an ioctl(). It's one of the oldest ways to
do this sort of thing. Just google for "device driver programming in
linux" and follow some of the simpler examples. ioctl() is a pattern
that occurs quite frequently, in and out of kernel/driver
development.

After that, just do plain old callbacks in 'C' - declare...

//a typedef

typedef void (*cbtype)(char *);

// an array of them

cbtype cbtab[3];

// an initializer

void set_cb(cbtype a,int idx)
{
...
}

// and reference the callbacks

void thing(char *s)
{
...
}

...

set_cb(thing,2);
cbtab[2]("Calling Elvis");

--
Les Cargill

[gnui...@hotmail.com]

On Oct 25, 7:18 pm, Joe Pfeiffer <pfeif...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:

I think, the above paras were what I was wanting as a reply although
all replies were useful. What I want to consolidate is really some
good and illustrative toy examples. Can you cook any or have a link to
some that you have whetted are good?

> Another application of callbacks is in FUSE (Filesystem in User SpacE)
> filesystems.  I will somewhat immodestly suggest that a tutorial on FUSE
> that you can find athttp://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer/fuse-tutorial/may
> help you.

I come to this after you give some examples of the first idea.

[gnui...@hotmail.com]

On Oct 26, 5:27 am, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.com> wrote:

> gnuist...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Dear Programming Gurus,
>
> > These concepts are rather well talked about .. over the internet and
> > usenet, however, I cant find any clear explanation.
>
> > avcall, callback, trampoline, vacall, etc
>
> > I looked in a book of C programming, ie k&r and also the rationale for
> > C, an old copy and could not find any explanation.
>
> > I know that javascript books talk a lot about callbacks and there is
> > the style of programming involving writing callbacks and registering
> > them. Unfortunately, in the age when I took my C class, there was no
> > discussion along these lines.
>
> > Can anyone give clear definition, example, benefits, variations,
> > origin or citation to a paper where it originated and explained first,
> > as well as some modern text that does the better than most job of
> > illustrating it and its applications.
>
> "Callbacks" are a method of storing pointers to functions
> and exploiting them.
>
> I'm answering from comp.lang.c so one thing I would start with is to
> learn the concept of an ioctl(). It's one of the oldest ways to
> do this sort of thing. Just google for "device driver programming in
> linux" and follow some of the simpler examples. ioctl() is a pattern
> that occurs quite frequently, in and out of kernel/driver
> development.

For starters, I always start with google and wikipedia. I could not
find any examples.

I am asking here so that you guys can give me whetted and good
examples for a newbie.

there are books on defice driver programming. I need the part that you
can make into a small paper. Give me a reference to read that you have
read yourself and appreciate, maybe a citeseer link to paper etc.

[Les Cargill]

Yes, you made that clear :). There is a superset of the callback()
concept embedded in developing device drivers. That's where Google
is helpful.

They offer trivial "device drivers" so you can learn the toolset.
The point is that device drivers are one of the most venerable
ways to do callbacks.

> there are books on defice driver programming. I need the part that you
> can make into a small paper. Give me a reference to read that you have
> read yourself and appreciate, maybe a citeseer link to paper etc.
>

So fill in the code I posted directly. It's a simple enough
example template. Try it, and ask questions if you get stuck.

It's not necessarily *worth* a paper; it's a couple dozen lines
of 'C'...

>>
>> After that, just do plain old callbacks in 'C' - declare...
>>
>> //a typedef
>>
>> typedef void (*cbtype)(char *);
>>
>> // an array of them
>>
>> cbtype cbtab[3];
>>
>> // an initializer
>>
>> void set_cb(cbtype a,int idx)
>> {
>> ...
>>
>> }
>>
>> // and reference the callbacks
>>
>> void thing(char *s)
>> {
>> ...
>>
>> }
>>
>> ...
>>
>> set_cb(thing,2);
>> cbtab[2]("Calling Elvis");
>>
>> --
>> Les Cargill
>

--
Les Cargill

[James Kuyper]

On 10/26/2012 01:16 PM, gnui...@hotmail.com wrote:
...

> For starters, I always start with google and wikipedia. I could not
> find any examples.
>
> I am asking here so that you guys can give me whetted and good
> examples for a newbie.

I pointed out that qsort() and bsearch() are good simple examples of how
callbacks are used, and I recommended searching
Wikipedia.<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callback_%28computer_programming%29>
has two completely filled out toy examples of code using callback
functions. Joe Pfeiffer pointed you at a tutorial for FUSE, which is a
more complicated system making use of callbacks. Les Cargill gave you a
basic template for implementing callbacks in C.

Callback are a relatively simple concept. Everything that makes a
callback be a callback is present in both Wikipedia's examples and in
Les Cargill's template. If there's something more that you need, that
wasn't provided by those examples, then you're looking for something
more than just a callback. Perhaps you could explain in more detail what
you're looking for that was missing from these examples?

[Öö Tiib]

Callbacks and virtual functions can not carry any state so you have usually to
provide some "context pointer" or "interface pointer" together with those.

Functors and lambdas have usually both function and state embedded into them.
So those are (or can be) more advanced beast than callback.

[fma...@gmail.com]

Maybe I'm wrong (or just pedant) but aren't "callbacks" and "functors/lambdas" concepts belonging to different levels? ;-)
For example, I could write a lambda function where a callback is needed (this is actually pretty common in C#/C mixtures).
Ciao!

[Jorgen Grahn]

[Trimmed the newsgroups a bit ... probably not enough]

On Fri, 2012-10-26, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> gnui...@hotmail.com writes:
>
>> Dear Programming Gurus,
>>
>> These concepts are rather well talked about .. over the internet and
>> usenet, however, I cant find any clear explanation.
>>
>> avcall, callback, trampoline, vacall, etc
>
> Speaking only for myself, I found the idea of a 'callback' one that was
> really easy to describe, but really hard to understand for a long time.
> I see some other posters have already pointed you at google on this one,
> but I'll give it a shot anyway.

[snip]

> For callback-based programming, forget all that. Flush it.

I think you're exaggerating a bit here. But sure, callbacks are a bit
funny, and worth thinking about before trying to use them.

> There are areas where a completely different paradigm is used. A good example
> of one of these areas is writing a GUI interface. The big thing about a
> GUI interface is that you don't have control of the order in which input
> arrives, and you need to do something about whatever the crazy user
> does. In this world, somebody else writes something called an "event
> loop".

It seems to be very popular to design GUI frameworks that way, but
there is nothing that /forces/ them to do it. The fact that a GUI
application is (at leasr partly) driven by user input doesn't mean you
have to resort to callbacks.

Of course if a certain GUI framework forces you to use callbacks, you
have to do it.

[snip]

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> writes:

> [Trimmed the newsgroups a bit ... probably not enough]
>
> On Fri, 2012-10-26, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> gnui...@hotmail.com writes:
>>
>>> Dear Programming Gurus,
>>>
>>> These concepts are rather well talked about .. over the internet and
>>> usenet, however, I cant find any clear explanation.
>>>
>>> avcall, callback, trampoline, vacall, etc
>>
>> Speaking only for myself, I found the idea of a 'callback' one that was
>> really easy to describe, but really hard to understand for a long time.
>> I see some other posters have already pointed you at google on this one,
>> but I'll give it a shot anyway.
>
> [snip]
>
>> For callback-based programming, forget all that. Flush it.
>
> I think you're exaggerating a bit here. But sure, callbacks are a bit
> funny, and worth thinking about before trying to use them.

I don't think I'm exaggerating at all. This is one of those areas where
your previous intuitions about how a program fits together will do more
harm than good, and a necessary first step is to forget your previous
intuitions.

>> There are areas where a completely different paradigm is used. A good example
>> of one of these areas is writing a GUI interface. The big thing about a
>> GUI interface is that you don't have control of the order in which input
>> arrives, and you need to do something about whatever the crazy user
>> does. In this world, somebody else writes something called an "event
>> loop".
>
> It seems to be very popular to design GUI frameworks that way, but
> there is nothing that /forces/ them to do it. The fact that a GUI
> application is (at leasr partly) driven by user input doesn't mean you
> have to resort to callbacks.
>
> Of course if a certain GUI framework forces you to use callbacks, you
> have to do it.

And since the context of my post was somebody asking for help
understanding callbacks, that is the class of GUI program I described.

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:

> For callback-based programming, forget all that. Flush it.
>
> There are areas where a completely different paradigm is used. A good example
> of one of these areas is writing a GUI interface. The big thing about a
> GUI interface is that you don't have control of the order in which input
> arrives, and you need to do something about whatever the crazy user
> does. In this world, somebody else writes something called an "event
> loop". The event loop just sits out there waiting for input (maybe a
> button click, maybe information that you need to redraw your window,
> maybe a timeout, maybe something else), and when the input happens the
> event loop code calls a function you wrote to handle that particular
> input. Your function is called a 'callback'.

Yes, but in general, there is still this direct and simple flow of
control: a function calls another function, and so on.

A callback is just a function that is given to some module, to be called
when the module needs to call it. This is a way to parameterize or
customize that module.

(defun my-callback (data)
(format t "Received ~A~%" data))

(defun receive-loop (data-callback)
(loop
:for line = (progn (format *query-io* "> ")
(finish-output *query-io*)
(read-line *query-io* nil nil))
:while (and line (plusp (length line)))
:do (funcall data-callback line)))

cl-user> (receive-loop 'my-callback)
> Hello
Received Hello
> World
Received World
>
nil
cl-user>

And then you can use the receive-loop module with a different callback,
making it do something else:


cl-user> (let ((c 0))
(receive-loop (lambda (data) (incf c (parse-integer data))))
c)
> 42
> 33
> 101
>
176
cl-user>


Now, there's another situation where you really don't know WHEN the
callback is called, it's when the module calling it uses threads, and
calls your callback function at "random" times, possibly in another
thread, or perhaps while handling a unix signal. In this situation,
there are a lot of technicalities to fulfill for calbacks.


But the in usual case, there's no complexity involved.

--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
http://www.informatimago.com

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Sun, 2012-10-28, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> writes:
>
>> [Trimmed the newsgroups a bit ... probably not enough]
>>
>> On Fri, 2012-10-26, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>> gnui...@hotmail.com writes:
>>>
>>>> Dear Programming Gurus,
>>>>
>>>> These concepts are rather well talked about .. over the internet and
>>>> usenet, however, I cant find any clear explanation.
>>>>
>>>> avcall, callback, trampoline, vacall, etc
>>>
>>> Speaking only for myself, I found the idea of a 'callback' one that was
>>> really easy to describe, but really hard to understand for a long time.
>>> I see some other posters have already pointed you at google on this one,
>>> but I'll give it a shot anyway.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> For callback-based programming, forget all that. Flush it.
>>
>> I think you're exaggerating a bit here. But sure, callbacks are a bit
>> funny, and worth thinking about before trying to use them.
>
> I don't think I'm exaggerating at all. This is one of those areas where
> your previous intuitions about how a program fits together will do more
> harm than good, and a necessary first step is to forget your previous
> intuitions.

Then we disagree slightly. And that's fine -- the OP has seen two
opinions, and can make up his own mind.

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to "forget everything you think you
know!" messages.

[Rivka Miller]

On Oct 25, 6:18 pm, Joe Pfeiffer <pfeif...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:

> gnuist...@hotmail.com writes:
> > Dear Programming Gurus,
>
> > These concepts are rather well talked about .. over the internet and
> > usenet, however, I cant find any clear explanation.
>
> > avcall, callback, trampoline, vacall, etc

I am a newbie, but let me hazard a reply from what little I know.

> Speaking only for myself, I found the idea of a 'callback' one that was
> really easy to describe, but really hard to understand for a long time.
> I see some other posters have already pointed you at google on this one,
> but I'll give it a shot anyway.

I think the OP wrote in a rather nice way, going back to the original
book on C programming. Even the book by Kernighan and Pike on the Unix
does not touch any of these concepts.

As Joe Pfeiffer said that this has to do with a very different
paradigm.
I like Joe's reply as he tries to develop a good reply from basics.
Those
who replied did not seem to add much to it - atleast from my point of
view. And a newbie like the OP would probably be confused on this
subject.
I have a little pedestrian knowledge of the event drive programming.

Perhaps, they would have taken Joe's discussion and developed it
further.

For event-driven programming, you have to start with the concept of a
finite state machine FSM. There are a few variations, Mealy and Moore
machines.
You can also factorize out the states according to alternative,
concurrency and inheritance.

Most often, one sees callbacks when there are javascript code snippets
sent
by the server machine to the client machine browser for calling back
if it needs something.

But the callbacks can also be limited to a single machine with
multiple threads or processes running and able to call each other via
callbacks - I dont know how, but somehow.

Perhaps, someone would take a simple pictorial diagram of an
interesting FSM and translate it into a complete code involving
callbacks - and comparing with the other paradigm if that can also be
done. Or atleast, show how a single transition can be converted to it.
An example of GUI might be worth considering.

R