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"A second dark age for C++"

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Lynn McGuire

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May 27, 2015, 12:11:05 PM5/27/15
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"A second dark age for C++"
http://kennykerr.ca/2015/05/26/a-second-dark-age-for-c/

C++ looks very healthy to me right now.

Lynn

Lynn McGuire

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May 27, 2015, 12:15:44 PM5/27/15
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In fact, the only thing that C++ is missing is an excellent cross platform user interface toolkit.

Lynn

Victor Bazarov

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May 27, 2015, 1:05:28 PM5/27/15
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People have been saying this for years. As if there is no Qt or any
other similar ones... C++ is *not* missing it. C++ is just fine with
those things existing on their own.

V
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I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask

Cholo Lennon

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May 27, 2015, 1:10:55 PM5/27/15
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IMO the article title is misleading. It should be "A second dark age for
C++ *on Windows*" or maybe better "A second dark age for C++ *in Microsoft*"

Regards

--
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG

Melzzzzz

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May 27, 2015, 1:55:48 PM5/27/15
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On Wed, 27 May 2015 13:05:14 -0400
Victor Bazarov <v.ba...@comcast.invalid> wrote:

> On 5/27/2015 12:15 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 5/27/2015 11:10 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> "A second dark age for C++"
> >> http://kennykerr.ca/2015/05/26/a-second-dark-age-for-c/
> >>
> >> C++ looks very healthy to me right now.
> >>
> >> Lynn
> >
> > In fact, the only thing that C++ is missing is an excellent cross
> > platform user interface toolkit.
>
> People have been saying this for years. As if there is no Qt or any
> other similar ones... C++ is *not* missing it. C++ is just fine
> with those things existing on their own.
>
> V

How many languages (besides Java) have stdlib gui toolkit at all?

Lynn McGuire

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May 27, 2015, 4:51:58 PM5/27/15
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C#

Lynn

Scott Lurndal

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May 28, 2015, 10:19:32 AM5/28/15
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Cholo Lennon <cholo...@hotmail.com> writes:
>On 05/27/2015 01:10 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> "A second dark age for C++"
>> http://kennykerr.ca/2015/05/26/a-second-dark-age-for-c/
>>
>> C++ looks very healthy to me right now.
>>
>
>IMO the article title is misleading. It should be "A second dark age for
>C++ *on Windows*" or maybe better "A second dark age for C++ *in Microsoft*"
>

Or maybe "Much ado about nothing".

Richard

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May 28, 2015, 10:22:31 AM5/28/15
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[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> spake the secret code
<mk4q7t$elv$1...@dont-email.me> thusly:

>"A second dark age for C++"
> http://kennykerr.ca/2015/05/26/a-second-dark-age-for-c/

The problem with Kenny Kerr is that he's been pimping his library for
months, yet as near as I can tell noone can look at it except in
whatever videos he has created or whatever he has written on his blog.

If he wants that library adopted by the C++ community, it should be on
github with a commercial-friendly license.

As near as I can tell, he hasn't done this because it feels like he's
hoping Microsoft will purchase it from him.
--
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The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

Christopher Pisz

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May 28, 2015, 11:28:36 AM5/28/15
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Looks like an advertisement, much like those commercials on TV that
start off with "The government has recently changed laws and you are
entitled to a low interest credit card!"


--
I have chosen to troll filter/ignore all subthreads containing the
words: "Rick C. Hodgins", "Flibble", and "Islam"
So, I won't be able to see or respond to any such messages
---

Richard

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May 28, 2015, 11:47:21 AM5/28/15
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[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> spake the secret code
<mk4qgt$g7p$1...@dont-email.me> thusly:

>In fact, the only thing that C++ is missing is an excellent cross
>platform user interface toolkit.

I can think of 3 off the top of my head that I have used in my career
since the 90s:

wxWidgets
Qt
Galaxy (went out of business)

WikiPedia lists 11:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_platform-independent_GUI_libraries#C.2FC.2B.2B_packages>

I don't know how you can say that something is *missing* when
WikiPedia lists 11. Perhaps you didn't look hard enough, or you meant
something more specific like "the only thing that the C++ *standard*
is missing [...]", which is a very different thing.

Personally, I don't think a GUI framework belongs in the ISO standard
because it will end up like the CommonLISP standard.

jacobnavia

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May 28, 2015, 1:59:50 PM5/28/15
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I looked at the videos of Mr Kerr's library. Obviously, not being a C++
head I am missing something, but I saw a demo of a window with some
color rectangles moving around.


???


I can do that using C (not even C++) in around 30 minutes:

1: lcc-win, my compiler system, generates the C source code for an empty
window with all the stuff needed in a few seconds.

2: In the WM_CREATE message create child windows (could be buttons, for
instance)

3) In the window procedure for those windows you subclass the WM_MOVE
message and the WM_CTLCOLOR to paint the windows with whatever colors
you wish.


I just do not see the point sorry. Why would I need a complicated C++
library to do that?

Maybe Mr Kerr should put a more realistic demo in his Web site, like,
for instance, buiklding an entry form or whatever.



FredK

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May 28, 2015, 2:03:06 PM5/28/15
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On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 8:47:21 AM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>
> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> spake the secret code
> <mk4qgt$g7p$1...@dont-email.me> thusly:
>
> >In fact, the only thing that C++ is missing is an excellent cross
> >platform user interface toolkit.
>
> I can think of 3 off the top of my head that I have used in my career
> since the 90s:
>
> wxWidgets
> Qt
> Galaxy (went out of business)
>
> WikiPedia lists 11:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_platform-independent_GUI_libraries#C.2FC.2B.2B_packages>
>
> I don't know how you can say that something is *missing* when
> WikiPedia lists 11. Perhaps you didn't look hard enough, or you meant
> something more specific like "the only thing that the C++ *standard*
> is missing [...]", which is a very different thing.
>
> Personally, I don't think a GUI framework belongs in the ISO standard
> because it will end up like the CommonLISP standard.
>

I've been using Motif with C++ since the early 90's and have no complaints. I still use Motif2.1 on various Unix platforms and 2.3 on Linux and Windows (using OpenText as the X-server and XDK)
--
Fred K
Message has been deleted

Victor Bazarov

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May 28, 2015, 3:44:42 PM5/28/15
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On 5/28/2015 3:23 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> [..]
> Regarding Qt: I wish it was a library! But instead it seems
> to assume that one is using a special IDE that applies some
> transformations to the user code. This is confusing to me.
> [..]

Qt is a _toolkit_ that includes several libraries. Yes, the code needs
to be processed by their tools to generate additional C++ source files.
There is no assumption about any IDE, you can edit your own code.
*If* you already use an IDE, it is very likely they can integrate with
it (and it's recommended).

If you want to be de-confused, get a book (there are several that deal
with different versions of Qt at different depths), it's actually very
simple once you grasp the basics.

Christopher Pisz

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May 28, 2015, 4:19:50 PM5/28/15
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Ha. People freak right the heck out if they see the window's message
procedure these days. They want Datagrid myDatagrid = new
Datagrid(allMyData); myDatagrid.Draw();

Melzzzzz

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May 28, 2015, 4:47:24 PM5/28/15
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On 28 May 2015 19:23:45 GMT
r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:

>
> Regarding Qt: I wish it was a library! But instead it seems
> to assume that one is using a special IDE that applies some
> transformations to the user code. This is confusing to me.
>
I used Qt and I never used IDE on Unix/Linux.

jacobnavia

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May 28, 2015, 6:10:20 PM5/28/15
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Le 28/05/2015 22:19, Christopher Pisz a écrit :
>
> Ha. People freak right the heck out if they see the window's message
> procedure these days. They want Datagrid myDatagrid = new
> Datagrid(allMyData); myDatagrid.Draw();

Yes, then it would be nice to see what data grid Mr Kerr has got in his
library.

Because showing how to move colored rectangles... is kind of underwhelming

:-)



Thomas Richter

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May 29, 2015, 5:04:03 AM5/29/15
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On 28.05.2015 19:59, jacobnavia wrote:
>
>
> I just do not see the point sorry. Why would I need a complicated C++
> library to do that?

Would your code compile and work on Linux? On android? On IOS? On MacOs?

No? See, that's why.


Cholo Lennon

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May 29, 2015, 8:40:43 AM5/29/15
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On 05/28/2015 07:10 PM, jacobnavia wrote:
> Le 28/05/2015 22:19, Christopher Pisz a écrit :
>>
>> Ha. People freak right the heck out if they see the window's message
>> procedure these days. They want Datagrid myDatagrid = new
>> Datagrid(allMyData); myDatagrid.Draw();
>
> Yes, then it would be nice to see what data grid Mr Kerr has got in his
> library.
>
AFAIK the Mr Kerr library allows C++ programmers to access all .NET
framework without using C# or C++ extensions like C++/CLI or C++/CX
have, so (in theory) you can use .Net datagrid class. Mr Kerr library is
generated by a compiler (provided by Mr Kerr) using the .NET framework
as a source.

> Because showing how to move colored rectangles... is kind of underwhelming
>
> :-)
>
>
>


jacobnavia

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May 29, 2015, 11:24:23 AM5/29/15
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Nowhere in the docs that I read was stated that the library was for
linux or OS X. I thoutht that was windows only.

Richard

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May 29, 2015, 1:21:40 PM5/29/15
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[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

Thomas Richter <th...@math.tu-berlin.de> spake the secret code
<mk9a1i$8vn$1...@news2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> thusly:
Kenny Kerr's "Modern C++" library doesn't do any of that either;
you're confusing cross-platform GUI library with Kenny Kerr's baby.

Richard

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May 29, 2015, 1:24:14 PM5/29/15
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[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

Cholo Lennon <cholo...@hotmail.com> spake the secret code
<mk9mne$n6q$1...@speranza.aioe.org> thusly:

>AFAIK the Mr Kerr library allows C++ programmers to access all .NET
>framework without using C# or C++ extensions like C++/CLI or C++/CX
>have, so (in theory) you can use .Net datagrid class. Mr Kerr library is
>generated by a compiler (provided by Mr Kerr) using the .NET framework
>as a source.

Umm.... I don't know why you think any of the above things or how you
conclude that from his talks about his library. Again, because we
don't actually have the library available to us in any machine
readable form, we can only guess what the library actually does.

My understanding of it is completely different from yours; it appears
to be a *native* C++ library that access the Windows API (WinRT, I
think) using the native API. It's not clear if your code needs to be
compiled C++/CX or not. Again, hard to say because we can't actually
look at the library.
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