Finding a Career in C++

[Travis Parks]

I am looking for a job right now. I am looking for something
challenging and new. I have been working in .NET (C#) for the past
five years. It seems most .NET jobs are for writing internal business
applications (like forms) and it can get pretty boring. It remained
exciting for as long as it took me to learn how to build good
architectures. The problems I had been solving weren't taxing enough.

When I was in college I worked entirely in C++. I had to learn C# on
my own. Honestly, I was shooting for a C++ position after I graduated.
I found a job that had an old C++ system that they were trying to
upgrade to .NET. Since I had an interest in both platforms, I thought
the job would be perfect for me. Turns out, I did mostly .NET and all
of the C/C++ was an ugly mess. So, I didn't get much C++ exposure.

Now that I am hunting a job again, I can't help but notice that
the .NET positions tend to be boring business applications again. I
don't feel like I can put forth my best effort unless I actually care
about what I am working on. On the flip side, C++ projects seem to be
much more interesting. I've always loved the language and I think the
learning curve plus a more interesting project would help me stay
interested.

The problem is that I can't seem to find any C++ jobs where the
company is willing to hire someone on that is somewhere in the middle.
I have too much experience designing systems to be considered an entry-
level programmer. I don't have enough professional C++ experience to
be considered a senior level programmer. I guess, this could be said
of any language or platform. Knowing C++ and the STL is only a quarter
of the battle. Knowing how to build large systems in another quarter.
The remaining half is knowing how to use them together.

- Should I be willing to take a major pay cut if I can work in/on
something I enjoy?

- Is there such a thing as an entry-level C++ position out there? All
I ever see are positions for already experienced C++ programmers.
Since the language is not taught in colleges anymore, has a line been
drawn in the sand such that new programmers can't work in C++?

- If I've read the best books by Herb Sutter, Scott Meyes, Bjarne
Stroustrup and Nicolai Josuttis, how far away am I from being a top-
notch C++ programmer? I feel like no matter how much I learn about C+
+, there is a whole world yet unlearned.

[hgsch...@gmail.com]

I would say don't accept anything below 50k. C++ programmers are real programmers, and deserve to get paid what they're worth. They typically write much more intetesting apps than the next big CRUD app. That comes at a price though: much harder work.

[Travis Parks]

On Thursday, May 17, 2012 1:18:18 PM UTC-4, hgsch...@gmail.com wrote:
> I would say don't accept anything below 50k. C++ programmers are real programmers, and deserve to get paid what they're worth. They typically write much more intetesting apps than the next big CRUD app. That comes at a price though: much harder work.

I'm really looking for a challenge. I miss the complex assignments I had in college. Every two weeks was something intensely difficult. But the reward of seeing something work was always worth it.

[Robert Miles]

On Thursday, May 17, 2012 9:50:42 AM UTC-5, Travis Parks wrote:
> I am looking for a job right now. I am looking for something
> challenging and new. I have been working in .NET (C#) for the past
> five years. It seems most .NET jobs are for writing internal business
> applications (like forms) and it can get pretty boring. It remained
> exciting for as long as it took me to learn how to build good
> architectures. The problems I had been solving weren't taxing enough.

If you're in the US, you might check if whatever newsgroups server you use
offers newsgroup misc.jobs.offered. It tends to list around 600 job offers a
day, although mostly not for C++. If your newsreader includes a search function, it may be able to search for only offers that mention C++. Few
offers for jobs outside the US, though.

Note that Google Groups does not offer this newsgroup.

I've noticed several other newsgroups whose names include "jobs,offered" or at
least "jobs" or "offered"; I haven't checked it it's worth looking at those
also.

[Travis Parks]

I have been able to find some jobs on free posting sites and on dice. They are rare. Most that I do find are for upgrading to a different language.

There seems to be this bias that newer programmers can't program in C++. I got my degree in 2006, when most schools were teaching Java. My college was almost 100% C++ until the year I graduated. I was also a student of John E. Potter who was a bit of a C++ nut and a regular on the moderated C++ forums. He even got acknowledged in one of Scott Meyer's books (I think Effective STL). He basically taught me how to be a real programmer and gave me a guided tour through the language and the standard libraries. In that regard, I was very lucky compared to what most people come out of college knowing.

Now I'm stuck programming in a high-level language all the time. It would nice to work somewhere that I got a lot more exposure to different languages and environments.

[Pavel]

My advice below is is all US, East-Coast-based.

>
> - Should I be willing to take a major pay cut if I can work in/on
> something I enjoy?

If you are determined to enter a new field, you have to be prepared to be
treated as beginner-to-intermediate in C++, even though in your old field (.Net)
you were an expert, with all respective consequences in compensation etc.

I suspect you may face another issue you have not realized yet: your business
experience (that with boring business applications) may matter to a hiring
manager not less if not more than your programming language. That is, don't be
surprised if you land a C++ position (maybe for lesser compensation) and end up
told to write some equally boring back-ends for those boring front-end forms.

I would suggest you to triple-think that you are ready to take this zig-zag in
your career (what makes me think you might feel sorry about it later is that you
have not decided yet that you are ready to take a significant position and pay
cuts to "pay" for the opportunity to pursue your new interests).

> - Is there such a thing as an entry-level C++ position out there?

Yes. My current firm hires most C++ programmers for entry-level positions; (but
our interviews are quite cruel nonetheless).

> All
> I ever see are positions for already experienced C++ programmers.

As long as your account of your skills and experience in C++ in your resume is
accurate, do not hesitate to apply for these positions. It's kind of a game: no
one writes in their job posting that they need an "inexperienced" C++
programmer; and they will try to prove to you during the interview that you are
not as good as you think you are to get a good negotiating position.

Also, entry-level positions are often filled at campuses. Your case is special:
you can always position yourself as an experienced software engineer with some
C++ and more. You are truly special but you can only explain your situation
during the phone or in-person conversation; but to get in the door for this
conversation, you need to apply for the position first. A recruiter or (ideally)
someone from the firm may call you and ask "why do you think you are good for
this position with this experience" -- and this will be your chance to explain.

Just be aware that, as I said before, your unwillingness to work for your old
business domain may play against you in the eyes of a hiring manager (you are
too old to be treated like a college graduate but have one's skill level in what
matters for him/her, you do not come through the usual channel of on-campus
recruiting or internship, you may create an impression that you feel
negative/bored about your former occupations / jobs and that never helps: as a
hiring manager I would think "what if this guy starts feel bored with the things
I will need him to do", etc).

> Since the language is not taught in colleges anymore, has a line been
> drawn in the sand such that new programmers can't work in C++?

No. It's taught and, especially in graduate schools, lots of professors make
their guys do projects in C/C++ (especially in Electrical Engineering and Math
-- this I know first-hand). It's true that OO programming is not taught in C++
as much as before though.

>
> - If I've read the best books by Herb Sutter, Scott Meyes, Bjarne
> Stroustrup and Nicolai Josuttis, how far away am I from being a top-
> notch C++ programmer?

Hard to say without reading your code and checking how you can understand the
(both good and bad) code written by others. Books are just learning tools; best
and worst programmers I have met sometimes learned from same books.

I feel like no matter how much I learn about C+
> +, there is a whole world yet unlearned.

True. Same can be said of any non-trivial PL but C++ IMHO is slightly special:
first, its definition is overcomplicated in the areas that matter, second, being
used more often than .Net and other higher-level tools for performance-critical
apps, it makes its practitioners know relatively more about OS and hardware to
stay useful and OS and hardware are changing much faster in
meaningful-for-performance ways than mathematical or linguistic concepts needed
to master a programming language as such or even engineering concepts involved
in writing good software.

-Pavel

[Robert Miles]

Are you aware of the newsgroup misc.jobs.offered? It often has job listings mentioning C++. Almost all in the US, though.

Typically, 600 new listings a day, although many of them are near-duplicates of earlier listings.

Does not seem to be available from many of the newsgroups servers - for example, not available from Google Groups.

There are also several other newsgroups with "jobs" in their name; you may want to check which of those are worth reading.

[Robert Miles]

On Thursday, May 17, 2012 9:50:42 AM UTC-5, Travis Parks wrote:

A job that liike similar enough to what you want that you should read about it:

http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=101&dockey=xml/6/8/68b968993d1ccb428bc5f29cf24419fe@endecaindex&c=1&source=60