Emacs Ada mode vs Ada 2012 syntax

[Stephen Leake]

(also posted to emacs-ada-mode mailing list, partly as a test of
which place is better for this type of discussion)

I've started using some Ada 2012 syntax, in particular if expressions,
and it confuses the Emacs Ada mode indentation engine.

So it's time to think about adding that syntax to the engine.

However, as I've mentioned before, the current Emacs Ada mode
indentation engine is a horrible mess of heuristic code, so I really
don't want to mess with it.

One option is to totally rewrite that part of Emacs Ada mode, replacing
it with a semantic browser based engine implemented in elisp. Emacs has
support in general for this approach; several other language modes use
it. We could possibly get hints from the GPS implementation (I'm
assuming it does Ada 2012 by now).

Another option is to try to abstract the Ada implementation of the
indentation engine from GPS, and arrange for Emacs to use it, via
process or function calls. I don't think that would be easy, and it
could be too slow.

Another option is to give up on Emacs. I don't want to do that, but if
there are not many people using it, maybe it's time.

Opinions? Offers of help?

--
-- Stephe

[Georg Bauhaus]

On 31.08.12 12:11, Stephen Leake wrote:

> One option is to totally rewrite that part of Emacs Ada mode, replacing
> it with a semantic browser based engine implemented in elisp.

Since other pre-Ada 2012 things do seem to confuse the current mode
(such as anonymous access to subprogram parameters), starting from a
well documented grammar with some error rules added to the grammar
seems promising. This might have to be done carefully if what Emacs
currently has would, by default, result in one of those parsers that
cannot handle ''' properly.

Is there some current introduction to Emacs syntax thingies?
Last time I looked it seemed to be a moving target.

> Another option is to try to abstract the Ada implementation of the
> indentation engine from GPS, and arrange for Emacs to use it, via
> process or function calls. I don't think that would be easy, and it
> could be too slow.

Argh!

- "Emacs Ada Support: Now Vendor Locked!"

- GPS version dependence

- cuts alternatives (Emacs' indentation has some nice
adjustable features that GPS does not have, and vice versa)

- cannot change Emacs mode without knowing some other, external
program's sources well, and how to recreate that

- might force running an X server (unless an "indentation
daemon" could be extraced/made from GPS/gnatpretty).
Pretty often, I need to run emacs in a terminal window outside
a graphical environment; imagine a remote server machine,
or some virtual machine that is efficient only when it does
not have to compute pixels.

[Simon Wright]

Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> (also posted to emacs-ada-mode mailing list, partly as a test of
> which place is better for this type of discussion)

I'd be glad to reply to the mailing list instead, but I saw this first!

> I've started using some Ada 2012 syntax, in particular if expressions,
> and it confuses the Emacs Ada mode indentation engine.
>
> So it's time to think about adding that syntax to the engine.
>
> However, as I've mentioned before, the current Emacs Ada mode
> indentation engine is a horrible mess of heuristic code, so I really
> don't want to mess with it.
>
> One option is to totally rewrite that part of Emacs Ada mode, replacing
> it with a semantic browser based engine implemented in elisp. Emacs has
> support in general for this approach; several other language modes use
> it. We could possibly get hints from the GPS implementation (I'm
> assuming it does Ada 2012 by now).
>
> Another option is to try to abstract the Ada implementation of the
> indentation engine from GPS, and arrange for Emacs to use it, via
> process or function calls. I don't think that would be easy, and it
> could be too slow.
>
> Another option is to give up on Emacs. I don't want to do that, but if
> there are not many people using it, maybe it's time.
>
> Opinions? Offers of help?

I was going to suggest using gnatpp (well, really 'gnat pretty' if you
want to use a project file - why???!) but of course that only works if
the file is syntactically and semantically correct - which isn't going
to be the case while developing code.

My elisp skills aren't of the greatest, but I'd certainly be happy to
brush them up and help.

[stefan...@see-the.signature]

On Fri, 31 Aug 2012, Stephen Leake wrote:

> I've started using some Ada 2012 syntax, in particular if expressions,
> and it confuses the Emacs Ada mode indentation engine.

Indeed!

> One option is to totally rewrite that part of Emacs Ada mode, replacing
> it with a semantic browser based engine implemented in elisp. Emacs has
> support in general for this approach; several other language modes use
> it. We could possibly get hints from the GPS implementation (I'm
> assuming it does Ada 2012 by now).

Looks like a sound approach. But a lot of work, though.

> Another option is to try to abstract the Ada implementation of the
> indentation engine from GPS, and arrange for Emacs to use it, via
> process or function calls. I don't think that would be easy, and it
> could be too slow.

Please don't! One of the good things about Emacs is its
vendor-independence.

> Another option is to give up on Emacs. I don't want to do that, but if
> there are not many people using it, maybe it's time.

I am using it. On my desktop PC, I have both GPS and Emacs. On the netbook
I use when trevelling, I only have Emacs.

> Opinions? Offers of help?

I would like to help. Alas, I have no knowledge about elisp.


--
---- Stefan.Lucks (at) uni-weimar.de, University of Weimar, Germany ----
<http://www.uni-weimar.de/cms/medien/mediensicherheit/home.html>
------ I love the taste of Cryptanalysis in the morning! ------

[Stephen Leake]

I'll take this as one vote of support for using Emacs :)

Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash...@futureapps.de> writes:

> On 31.08.12 12:11, Stephen Leake wrote:
>
>> One option is to totally rewrite that part of Emacs Ada mode, replacing
>> it with a semantic browser based engine implemented in elisp.
>

> Is there some current introduction to Emacs syntax thingies?
> Last time I looked it seemed to be a moving target.

I have not looked yet. I think we just have to read semantic.el

>> Another option is to try to abstract the Ada implementation of the
>> indentation engine from GPS, and arrange for Emacs to use it, via
>> process or function calls. I don't think that would be easy, and it
>> could be too slow.
>
> Argh!
>
> - "Emacs Ada Support: Now Vendor Locked!"

Well, no; the GPS code is GPL.

> - GPS version dependence

We'd want to copy the code, for sure, and update it carefully.

But I don't see that as much different from Emacs version dependence;
Emacs updates have broken things on occasion.

I doubt the Emacs project would accept Ada code in the source tree, so
this would be a sort of fork.

> - cuts alternatives (Emacs' indentation has some nice
> adjustable features that GPS does not have, and vice versa)

On the other hand, if we can feed back changes to AdaCore, it could end
up with the superset of features in both.

> - cannot change Emacs mode without knowing some other, external
> program's sources well, and how to recreate that

The indentation part of Emacs Ada mode, possibly. Contrast that with
"cannot change Emacs Ada mode without understanding the Emacs semanitic
package". Which would you rather learn, an package written in Elisp, or
a package written in Ada?

> - might force running an X server (unless an "indentation
> daemon" could be extraced/made from GPS/gnatpretty).

Ideally, the Ada indentation engine would be a linkable library, not
requiring any UI at all (certainly no X server).


--
-- Stephe

[Stephen Leake]

stefan...@see-the.signature writes:

> On Fri, 31 Aug 2012, Stephen Leake wrote:
>
>> Another option is to try to abstract the Ada implementation of the
>> indentation engine from GPS, and arrange for Emacs to use it, via
>> process or function calls. I don't think that would be easy, and it
>> could be too slow.
>
> Please don't! One of the good things about Emacs is its
> vendor-independence.

How does using GPL code for an indentation engine create vendor
dependence?

As I understand it, "vendor dependence" means supporting only one (or a
few) Ada compiler vendors. For Ada mode, the things that can be
vendor-dependent are the command line used to invoke the compiler, the
syntax of the error messages, the cross-reference information, and the
project files.

Precisely because Ada source code syntax is _standard_ (ie _not_
vendor-dependent), an indentation engine cannot possibly introduce vendor
dependence.

Invoking the compiler and parsing the error messages is nicely
vendor-independent in Emacs Ada mode, and would stay that way if the
indentation engine used GPS Ada code.

On the other hand, since Emacs understands only GNAT cross-reference info,
and has gpr-mode, which is AdaCore specific, it's already
vendor-dependent. But that's considered ok because GNAT is Open Source,
and part of the Gnu project.

--
-- Stephe

[Jerry van Dijk]

Op 31-8-2012 12:11, Stephen Leake schreef:

> (also posted to emacs-ada-mode mailing list, partly as a test of
> which place is better for this type of discussion)

I read it on the mailing list first, but didn't have the time to reply
to a digest.

> Another option is to give up on Emacs. I don't want to do that, but if
> there are not many people using it, maybe it's time.

No, no, no, please... It's my work environment for programming!

> Opinions? Offers of help?

Alas I do not have any elisp skills, but maybe I can help with something
else such as the documentation. (Note: NOT that I like doing
documentation, no way, but someone has to do it. However, not being a
native speaker it would at least require an additional editor of the
human variety. :-)

gr.
Jerry.

--
-- Jerry van Dijk
-- Leiden, Holland
--
-- In God we trust, all others must bring data. (W. Edwards Deming)

[Adam Beneschan]

On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 11:06:02 PM UTC-7, Jerry van Dijk wrote:

> Alas I do not have any elisp skills, but maybe I can help with something
> else such as the documentation. (Note: NOT that I like doing
> documentation, no way, but someone has to do it. However, not being a
> native speaker it would at least require an additional editor of the
> human variety. :-)

My experience has been that most Dutch speakers write better English than a whole lot of native English speakers, so I doubt that would be a problem. :-)

-- Adam

[Stephen Leake]

Let's continue this discussion on the Emacs Ada mode mailing list (one
reason is my news access is flakey at the moment). Subscription info at
http://stephe-leake.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-ada-mode_stephe-leake.org

--
-- Stephe

[Jacob Sparre Andersen]

Stephen Leake wrote:

> Another option is to give up on Emacs. I don't want to do that, but if
> there are not many people using it, maybe it's time.

I'm one of those still using Emacs (also as an editor ;-).

Greetings,

Jacob
--
"Two silk worms had a race. They ended up in a tie."

[Stephen Leake]

Jacob Sparre Andersen <spa...@nbi.dk> writes:

> Stephen Leake wrote:
>
>> Another option is to give up on Emacs. I don't want to do that, but if
>> there are not many people using it, maybe it's time.
>
> I'm one of those still using Emacs (also as an editor ;-).

Thanks for the feedback. You might want to join the Emacs Ada mode
mailing list, at
http://stephe-leake.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-ada-mode_stephe-leake.org

I'll be using that to discuss issues during the re-write.

--
-- Stephe

[Markus Schöpflin]

Am 04.10.2012 10:28, schrieb Stephen Leake:

> Thanks for the feedback. You might want to join the Emacs Ada mode
> mailing list, at
> http://stephe-leake.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-ada-mode_stephe-leake.org

BTW, did you ever consider registering the mailing list with gmane.org? I find
it much more convenient to follow a mailing list via NNTP.

Markus

[Stephen Leake]

Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:

> Am 04.10.2012 10:28, schrieb Stephen Leake:
>
>> Thanks for the feedback. You might want to join the Emacs Ada mode
>> mailing list, at
>> http://stephe-leake.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-ada-mode_stephe-leake.org
>
> BTW, did you ever consider registering the mailing list with
> gmane.org?

Never heard of such a thing. What is the cost to me of doing that, and
where would I find out more about it?

> I find it much more convenient to follow a mailing list via NNTP.

Interesting. What newsreader and mailreader are you using? I use Emacs
Gnus, and it's actually hard to tell the difference between newsgroups
and mailing lists (except that my commercial news server is less
reliable than my commercial mail server).

--
-- Stephe

[Markus Schöpflin]

Am 09.10.2012 05:14, schrieb Stephen Leake:
> Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:
>
>> Am 04.10.2012 10:28, schrieb Stephen Leake:
>>
>>> Thanks for the feedback. You might want to join the Emacs Ada mode
>>> mailing list, at
>>> http://stephe-leake.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-ada-mode_stephe-leake.org
>>
>> BTW, did you ever consider registering the mailing list with
>> gmane.org?
>
> Never heard of such a thing. What is the cost to me of doing that, and
> where would I find out more about it?

Gmane is a mail-to-news-and-back gateway which also does archiving of the mails.

AFAICT there is no cost involved, have a look at http://gmane.org/about.php
for more information. You can subscribe your list via
http://gmane.org/subscribe.php and you can even import old list archives (see
http://gmane.org/import.php) so that there is a complete history of the
mailing list as a news group.

Every single ML I'm following (boost.*, gcc bugs, gcc patches, emacs cc mode,
emacs dvc devel, emacs bugs, emacs help, ...), has registered itself with
gmane, so I'm kind of surprised that you never heard of it.

>> I find it much more convenient to follow a mailing list via NNTP.
>
> Interesting. What newsreader and mailreader are you using? I use Emacs
> Gnus, and it's actually hard to tell the difference between newsgroups
> and mailing lists (except that my commercial news server is less
> reliable than my commercial mail server).

For mail I have no choice but to use Outlook, for NNTP reading I'm using
Thunderbird. This explains my motivation to use news groups instead of mail
pretty well, I think. :-)

Markus

[Stephen Leake]

Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:

>>> BTW, did you ever consider registering the mailing list with
>>> gmane.org?
>>
>> Never heard of such a thing. What is the cost to me of doing that, and
>> where would I find out more about it?
>
> Gmane is a mail-to-news-and-back gateway which also does archiving of the mails.
>
> AFAICT there is no cost involved,

The primary cost appears to be yet more exposure to spam. And I didn't
see an "unsubscribe" option, but I'll assume there is one.

> have a look at http://gmane.org/about.php for more information. You
> can subscribe your list via http://gmane.org/subscribe.php

Done.

>>> I find it much more convenient to follow a mailing list via NNTP.
>>
>> Interesting. What newsreader and mailreader are you using? I use Emacs
>> Gnus, and it's actually hard to tell the difference between newsgroups
>> and mailing lists (except that my commercial news server is less
>> reliable than my commercial mail server).
>
> For mail I have no choice but to use Outlook,

My sympathies. Although I am truly puzzled by the "no choice" part -
what's stopping you from getting your own Internet connection, and
running your own software?

> for NNTP reading I'm using Thunderbird. This explains my motivation to
> use news groups instead of mail pretty well, I think. :-)

So it's the client user interface you like, not necessarily the
underlying network communication protocol.

Use Gnus, you'll be much happier. The user interface is nicely
orthogonal to the network protocol, as it should be.

--
-- Stephe

[Markus Schöpflin]

Am 10.10.2012 08:19, schrieb Stephen Leake:
> Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:
>
>>>> BTW, did you ever consider registering the mailing list with
>>>> gmane.org?
>>>
>>> Never heard of such a thing. What is the cost to me of doing that, and
>>> where would I find out more about it?
>>
>> Gmane is a mail-to-news-and-back gateway which also does archiving of the mails.
>>
>> AFAICT there is no cost involved,
>
> The primary cost appears to be yet more exposure to spam. And I didn't
> see an "unsubscribe" option, but I'll assume there is one.

Most of the ML I'm following via Gmane are nearly spam free. I don't know
whether this is due to Gmane or the list spam filters, though. But they do
have address scrambling and their own anti-spam measures. All in all it seems
to work pretty well.

The FAQ (http://gmane.org/faq.php) states that you just need to drop a mail to
the admin if you want your list removed.

>> have a look at http://gmane.org/about.php for more information. You
>> can subscribe your list via http://gmane.org/subscribe.php
>
> Done.

Cool, thanks.

>>>> I find it much more convenient to follow a mailing list via NNTP.
>>>
>>> Interesting. What newsreader and mailreader are you using? I use Emacs
>>> Gnus, and it's actually hard to tell the difference between newsgroups
>>> and mailing lists (except that my commercial news server is less
>>> reliable than my commercial mail server).
>>
>> For mail I have no choice but to use Outlook,
>
> My sympathies. Although I am truly puzzled by the "no choice" part -
> what's stopping you from getting your own Internet connection, and
> running your own software?

I do have my own Internet connection at home, but not everywhere else.

>> for NNTP reading I'm using Thunderbird. This explains my motivation to
>> use news groups instead of mail pretty well, I think. :-)
>
> So it's the client user interface you like, not necessarily the
> underlying network communication protocol.
>
> Use Gnus, you'll be much happier. The user interface is nicely
> orthogonal to the network protocol, as it should be.

It's not only the client interface. It's also the ability to point my NNTP
reader to the server, subscribe to some group, and immediately be able to
browse and search all past mails in the group. (Gmane does not expire any
articles.) I can even follow a group without being subscribed. E.g. I'm a
lurker on gcc bugs and gcc patches (actually I have a virtual subfolder for
gcc bugs which just shows me the Ada related stuff, and the same for gcc
patches) but I'm not subscribed to that list.

All in all I find a NNTP news group much more convenient to use than a mailing
list, but that may just be me.

Markus

[Jacob Sparre Andersen]

Markus Schöpflin wrote:

> All in all I find a NNTP news group much more convenient to use than a
> mailing list, but that may just be me.

It isn't. :-)

Greetings,

Jacob
--
"In case of discrepancy, you must ignore what they ask for
and give what they need, ignore what they would like and
tell them what they don't want to hear but need to know."
-- E.W. Dijkstra

[Stephen Leake]

Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:

> It's not only the client interface. It's also the ability to point my
> NNTP reader to the server, subscribe to some group, and immediately be
> able to browse and search all past mails in the group. (Gmane does not
> expire any articles.)

Good point. There are web interfaces to mailing list archives, but I
don't think Gnus will fetch from the archive to local disk.

I've just never tried to do that :).

> I can even follow a group without being subscribed. E.g. I'm a lurker
> on gcc bugs and gcc patches (actually I have a virtual subfolder for
> gcc bugs which just shows me the Ada related stuff, and the same for
> gcc patches) but I'm not subscribed to that list.

Yes, there is no list-level privacy setting for NNTP. That's a feature
and a bug.

Obviously, you can lurk on a mailing list, but the server does have your
email address.

--
-- Stephe

[Vasiliy Molostov]

Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> писал(а) в своём письме
Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:20:47 +0400:

> Yes, there is no list-level privacy setting for NNTP. That's a feature
> and a bug.
>
> Obviously, you can lurk on a mailing list, but the server does have your
> email address.
>

Probably virtual domain naming can help when domain name contains indeed
list(or group) name as a part, and holds all its subscribers as authorized
readers/writers, but I am not sure which nntp implemetation supports this.

--
Написано в почтовом клиенте браузера Opera: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Gour]

On Oct 10, 9:55 am, Markus Schöpflin <no.s...@spam.spam> wrote:

> All in all I find a NNTP news group much more convenient to use than a mailing
> list, but that may just be me.

+1

I'm newly recruited to Ada (since yesterday) and looking for
gmane.comp.lang.ada was one of the first thing I did and ask about in
#ada.

Too bad, there are only specific groups like:
gmane.comp.lang.ada.france, gmane.comp.lang.ada.german etc., so here
is humble request to subscribe this group/mailing list to Gmane which
really offers superior reading/writing experience which is spam-free
due to Gmane using TMDA auth. mechanism.


Sincerely,
Gour (posting from GoogleGroups web UI which sucks a lot)

[Markus Schöpflin]

Am 23.10.2012 11:30, schrieb Gour:

> On Oct 10, 9:55 am, Markus Sch�pflin <no.s...@spam.spam> wrote:
>
>> All in all I find a NNTP news group much more convenient to use than a mailing
>> list, but that may just be me.
>
> +1
>
> I'm newly recruited to Ada (since yesterday) and looking for
> gmane.comp.lang.ada was one of the first thing I did and ask about in
> #ada.
>
> Too bad, there are only specific groups like:
> gmane.comp.lang.ada.france, gmane.comp.lang.ada.german etc., so here
> is humble request to subscribe this group/mailing list to Gmane which
> really offers superior reading/writing experience which is spam-free
> due to Gmane using TMDA auth. mechanism.

You are aware that comp.lang.ada already *is* a NNTP news group, so it cannot
be subscribed to GMANE (only mailing lists can)? The main purpose of GMANE is
to be a mailing list <-> NNTP gateway, after all.

Markus

[Markus Schöpflin]

Am 10.10.2012 08:19, schrieb Stephen Leake:
> Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:

[...]

>> have a look at http://gmane.org/about.php for more information. You
>> can subscribe your list via http://gmane.org/subscribe.php
>
> Done.

Did you ever receive some feedback on the subscription? I'm asking because
nothing like gmane.emacs.ada-mode (or similar) is showing up there.

According to the FAQ the NNTP group is created once the first message is
received from the mailing list, so I think it should have been created by now.

Markus

[Gour]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 13:27:15 +0200
Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> wrote:

> You are aware that comp.lang.ada already *is* a NNTP news group, so
> it cannot be subscribed to GMANE (only mailing lists can)?

No. I was wondering why I'm not receiving email messages from the list
although the new ones are coming...I thought it's google-group. :-(


Thank you for helping me find the group. ;


Sincerely,
Gour


--
The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment,
though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing
such engagements by experiencing a higher taste,
he is fixed in consciousness.

http://www.atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

[Stephen Leake]

Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:

> Am 10.10.2012 08:19, schrieb Stephen Leake:
>> Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:
>
> [...]
>
>>> have a look at http://gmane.org/about.php for more information. You
>>> can subscribe your list via http://gmane.org/subscribe.php
>>
>> Done.
>
> Did you ever receive some feedback on the subscription?

No. Should I?

> I'm asking because nothing like gmane.emacs.ada-mode (or similar) is
> showing up there.
>
> According to the FAQ the NNTP group is created once the first message
> is received from the mailing list, so I think it should have been
> created by now.

Yes, there has been more traffic; see the archive at
http://stephe-leake.org/pipermail/emacs-ada-mode_stephe-leake.org/

--
-- Stephe

[Markus Schöpflin]

Am 24.10.2012 12:13, schrieb Stephen Leake:
> Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:
>
>> Am 10.10.2012 08:19, schrieb Stephen Leake:
>>> Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> have a look at http://gmane.org/about.php for more information. You
>>>> can subscribe your list via http://gmane.org/subscribe.php
>>>
>>> Done.
>>
>> Did you ever receive some feedback on the subscription?
>
> No. Should I?

Well, the following text from the subscription page makes me think that yes,
you should have received some feedback: "If you want a confirmation of the
subscription request, include your email address here. If you don't include an
address here, the request will be dropped."

Markus

[Gour]

Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:

> Well, the following text from the subscription page makes me think
> that yes, you should have received some feedback: "If you want a
> confirmation of the subscription request, include your email address
> here. If you don't include an address here, the request will be
> dropped."

Considering I'm looking for the best option (Emacs or Gps) to use with
Ada, I wonder if emacs-ada-mode list is now at Gmane or not?

I can't find anything...


Sincerely,
Gour

--
Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice,
O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion —
at that time I descend Myself.

[Simon Wright]

Gour <go...@atmarama.net> writes:

> Considering I'm looking for the best option (Emacs or Gps) to use with
> Ada, I wonder if emacs-ada-mode list is now at Gmane or not?

The mailing list is at
http://host114.hostmonster.com/mailman/listinfo/emacs-ada-mode_stephe-leake.org

[Gour]

Simon Wright <si...@pushface.org> writes:

> The mailing list is at
> http://host114.hostmonster.com/mailman/listinfo/emacs-ada-mode_stephe-leake.org

That I know, but I'd like to access it via Gmane which allows me to use
nntp reader, no subscription required, no need to filter my inbox,
automatic archive etc.


Sincerely,
Gour

--
You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you
are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider
yourself the cause of the results of your activities,
and never be attached to not doing your duty.

[Stephen Leake]

Gour <go...@atmarama.net> writes:

> Simon Wright <si...@pushface.org> writes:
>
>> The mailing list is at
>> http://host114.hostmonster.com/mailman/listinfo/emacs-ada-mode_stephe-leake.org
>
> That I know, but I'd like to access it via Gmane which allows me to use
> nntp reader,

Any decent reader should treat mail as nicely as news; use Gnus.

email is definitely the future; nntp is an inefficient use of resources.

What reader are you trying to use?

>no subscription required,

What's wrong with subscribing? I'd like to know who's interested (that
will motivate me to finish the job), and it is a very easy way to get
rid of spam.

>no need to filter my inbox,

This I don't understand; why would the filtering requirements be
different between nntp and email?

> automatic archive

http://host114.hostmonster.com/mailman/private/emacs-ada-mode_stephe-leake.org/

The past archives got lost in the host change, but I'm working on
learning how to prevent that again (tips appreciated). I also don't see
archives for this particular list as very useful beyond a month or so;
any knowledge contained in emails is copied into the relevant documents
on the website.

> etc.

I can't comment on this part!


In sum, I fail to see what Gmane buys me, except loss of information,
and setup and maintenance headaches.

--
-- Stephe

[Gour]

Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> Any decent reader should treat mail as nicely as news; use Gnus.

I use Gnus, that's another reason why I prefer having mailing list via
Gmane.

> What's wrong with subscribing? I'd like to know who's interested (that
> will motivate me to finish the job), and it is a very easy way to get
> rid of spam.

There are no spam on any mailing list which I use via Gmane.

Nothing wrong with subscribing, but it's extra step while Gmane allows
me to just reply to its auth. message and ready to go.

> This I don't understand; why would the filtering requirements be
> different between nntp and email?

If I subscribe to the mailing list, the email would arrive in my Inbox
and it means I've to create some sorting rule to move it to some other
folder.

With Gmane (news), the mail arrives in specific group and no need for
any sorting rules.

> http://host114.hostmonster.com/mailman/private/emacs-ada-mode_stephe-leake.org/

This involve visiting it via web browser, while with Gmane/nntp, nothing
extra is required.

> In sum, I fail to see what Gmane buys me, except loss of information,

You mean 'loss of information' for you 'cause I do not know about any
for end-users. From all the mailing list which I follow (19 atm), only
one (Yahoo-based) is not on Gmane.

As far as Ada lists are concerned, everything I need is available via
Gmane (linux.debian.packages.ada & gtk+.ada) plus comp.lang.ada.

> and setup and maintenance headaches.

Which setup and maint. headaches which are Gmane-related?

It requires only one-time subscription.


Sincerely,
Gour

--
From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion
bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered,
intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost
one falls down again into the material pool.

[Stephen Leake]

Gour <go...@atmarama.net> writes:

> With Gmane (news), the mail arrives in specific group and no need for
> any sorting rules.

Hmm. It's been a while since I set up my Gnus config file.

Ah, now I remember, Gnus by default creates one group in the UI for each
newsgroup on the news server.

But I set up several groups for my email anyway, so adding one more is
not a big deal for me. Here's how I do it:

(setq nnmail-split-methods 'nnmail-split-fancy)
(setq nnmail-split-fancy
'(|
;; These are before 'home' rules because people reply "to:" me,
;; "cc:" group
("to\\|cc" "bbdb-info" "bbdb-info")
("to\\|cc" "debian-ada" "debian-ada")
("to\\|cc" "debian" "debian")
("to\\|cc" "emacs...@gnu.org" "emacs-devel")
("from" "ow...@bugs.debian.org" "debian")
("to\\|cc" "DVC" "dvc")
("to\\|cc" "Monotone-devel" "monotone")
("to\\|cc" "Monotone-users" "monotone")
("to\\|cc" "monotone-debian" "monotone")
("from" "QtAda Community" "qtada")
))

>> In sum, I fail to see what Gmane buys me, except loss of information,
>
> You mean 'loss of information' for you

Yes; you are asking me to make more of an effort to get my mailing list
in Gmane. I followed the initial set of instructions; that apparently
did not work.

>'cause I do not know about any
> for end-users.

Right.

>From all the mailing list which I follow (19 atm), only
> one (Yahoo-based) is not on Gmane.
>
> As far as Ada lists are concerned, everything I need is available via
> Gmane (linux.debian.packages.ada & gtk+.ada) plus comp.lang.ada.
>
>> and setup and maintenance headaches.
>
> Which setup and maint. headaches which are Gmane-related?
>
> It requires only one-time subscription.

Which I did, and it did not work, which is why we are having this
conversation.

I get the impression that anyone can add any mailing list to Gmane; it
does not have to be the list owner.

So I hereby grant anyone permission to do that for emacs-ada-mode.

--
-- Stephe

[Gour]

Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> But I set up several groups for my email anyway, so adding one more is
> not a big deal for me. Here's how I do it:

Heh...my setup is simpler:

(setq gnus-select-method
'(nntp "gmane"
(nntp-address "news.gmane.org")
(nnir-search-engine nntp)))

> Which I did, and it did not work, which is why we are having this
> conversation.

I apologize if you're wasting time with it...I simply asked about it
seeing it was the topic for discussion here.

> I get the impression that anyone can add any mailing list to Gmane; it
> does not have to be the list owner.

It's not proper to do it *without* owner's permission.

> So I hereby grant anyone permission to do that for emacs-ada-mode.

OK. I'll try to do it.

Is gmane.comp.lang.ada.emacs OK with you?


Sincerely,
Gour

--
As the ignorant perform their duties with attachment to results,
the learned may similarly act, but without attachment, for the
sake of leading people on the right path.

[Stephen Leake]

Gour <go...@atmarama.net> writes:

> Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:
>
>> But I set up several groups for my email anyway, so adding one more is
>> not a big deal for me. Here's how I do it:
>
> Heh...my setup is simpler:
>
> (setq gnus-select-method
> '(nntp "gmane"
> (nntp-address "news.gmane.org")
> (nnir-search-engine nntp)))

simpler, yes, but not sufficient. I left out my more personal stuff;
email from some people goes in one group, from other people goes in
another.

If you can set gnus-select-method, you can set nnmail-split-fancy;
don't be scared of customizing your tools to work the way you need them
to!

>> So I hereby grant anyone permission to do that for emacs-ada-mode.
>
> OK. I'll try to do it.
>
> Is gmane.comp.lang.ada.emacs OK with you?

yes

--
-- Stephe

[Gour]

Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> If you can set gnus-select-method, you can set nnmail-split-fancy;
> don't be scared of customizing your tools to work the way you need them
> to!

Well, I fetch my mail viar getmail (cronjob) and it's scanned by clamav
and sorted using maildrop which delivers it to dovecot running on my
localhost, so, atm, I do not have need for splitting mail further.

>> Is gmane.comp.lang.ada.emacs OK with you?
>
> yes

Thank you. I'll inform you when I get some feedback from the Gmane
maintainer.


Sincerely,
Gour

--
From wherever the mind wanders due to its flickering and unsteady
nature, one must certainly withdraw it and bring it back under
the control of the self.

[Stephen Leake]

Gour <go...@atmarama.net> writes:

> Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:
>
>> If you can set gnus-select-method, you can set nnmail-split-fancy;
>> don't be scared of customizing your tools to work the way you need them
>> to!
>
> Well, I fetch my mail viar getmail (cronjob) and it's scanned by clamav
> and sorted using maildrop which delivers it to dovecot running on my
> localhost, so, atm, I do not have need for splitting mail further.

Setting up all of that is hardly simpler than one elisp variable
assignment.

And as I understand it, dovecot is a mail server, not a mail reader. So
you still have to tell Gnus to fetch mail from dovecot. How do you use the
groups set up by maildrop?

>>> Is gmane.comp.lang.ada.emacs OK with you?
>>
>> yes
>
> Thank you. I'll inform you when I get some feedback from the Gmane
> maintainer.

Ok. Good luck.

--
-- Stephe

[Shmuel Metz]

In <857gktk...@stephe-leake.org>, on 03/26/2013

at 04:27 PM, Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> said:

>email is definitely the future; nntp is an inefficient use of
>resources.

When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Mailing
lists are fine as one of the available tools, but they are not a
replacement for net news.

OTOH, I wish that there were internationalization RFC's for net news
as there are for e-mail.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spam...@library.lspace.org

[Stephen Leake]

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes:

> In <857gktk...@stephe-leake.org>, on 03/26/2013
> at 04:27 PM, Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> said:
>
>>email is definitely the future; nntp is an inefficient use of
>>resources.
>
> When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I use Gnus and Emacs; email is hardly my only tool!

>Mailing
> lists are fine as one of the available tools, but they are not a
> replacement for net news.

I've said they are, because they are more efficient; they use far fewer
CPU cycles, and less disk space, to accomplish the same task.

So you need to provide some facts to back up your contradiction.

What features of net news are not replaced by mailing lists?

> OTOH, I wish that there were internationalization RFC's for net news
> as there are for e-mail.

Another good point. And that supports my case; if people thought net news
had a future, they would have standardized it by now.

--
-- Stephe

[Simon Wright]

Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> What features of net news are not replaced by mailing lists?

The ability to come in after a conversation has finished and review
it. None of the (free) mailing list archives I've seen comes close to
News in general usability.

I experienced one project where the team embraced a local news service,
with great success, and another larger one where they had senior people
who were unable to cope with News. To be fair, I don't think they could
have coped with a mailing list either; just endless branching chains of
top-quoted waffling mail, coupled with inability to use ReplyAll.

[Gour]

Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> Another good point. And that supports my case; if people thought net news
> had a future, they would have standardized it by now.

Nope, they created web forums instead. :-)


Sincerely,
Gour

--
Never was there a time when I did not exist,
nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future
shall any of us cease to be.

[Stephen Leake]

Simon Wright <si...@pushface.org> writes:

> Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:
>
>> What features of net news are not replaced by mailing lists?
>
> The ability to come in after a conversation has finished and review
> it.

That's what archives are for.

>None of the (free) mailing list archives I've seen comes close to
> News in general usability.

Why? What specifically is missing from a Mailman archive?

The only news archive I know about is Google. That keeps changing its
interface, but it seems comparable to the web interface to a Mailman
archive to me.

> I experienced one project where the team embraced a local news service,
> with great success, and another larger one where they had senior people
> who were unable to cope with News. To be fair, I don't think they could
> have coped with a mailing list either; just endless branching chains of
> top-quoted waffling mail, coupled with inability to use ReplyAll.

So this anecdote is not about news vs email, but about computer-literate vs
not.

--
-- Stephe

[Stephen Leake]

Gour <go...@atmarama.net> writes:

> Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:
>
>> Another good point. And that supports my case; if people thought net news
>> had a future, they would have standardized it by now.
>
> Nope, they created web forums instead. :-)

Which is a huge step backward, as far as I can tell (I assume that
smiley means you agree with me).

news/email: all messages arrive in my Gnus inbox, a nice convenient
single point of access.

web forums: i have a manual list of websites I must manually visit, each
with a different interface.

Needless to say, I don't follow any web forums!

--
-- Stephe

[Gour]

Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> Which is a huge step backward, as far as I can tell (I assume that
> smiley means you agree with me).

Sure.

> news/email: all messages arrive in my Gnus inbox, a nice convenient
> single point of access.

Let me inform you that I got confirmation email from the Gmane
maintainer (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen) - the same guy who is behind Gnus
(hint, hint...) saying:

"Subscription messages for the requested mailing lists have been sent.
The resulting groups will be created when the first message
arrives from the mailing lists."

so, if everything is OK, the list should be available as:

gmane.comp.lang.ada.emacs


Sincerely,
Gour

--
A person is considered still further advanced when he regards honest
well-wishers, affectionate benefactors, the neutral, mediators, the envious,
friends and enemies, the pious and the sinners all with an equal mind.

[Simon Wright]

Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> Simon Wright <si...@pushface.org> writes:

>>None of the (free) mailing list archives I've seen comes close to
>> News in general usability.
>
> Why? What specifically is missing from a Mailman archive?
>
> The only news archive I know about is Google. That keeps changing its
> interface, but it seems comparable to the web interface to a Mailman
> archive to me.

I only know the web interface to Mailman archives; eg emacs-ada-mode and
gcc. It'd be _so_ much better with a framed strucure; message threads on
the left, individual messages on the right (or top and bottom, like
the default Gnus).

[Shmuel Metz]

In <85eheqn...@stephe-leake.org>, on 04/04/2013

at 04:10 AM, Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> said:

>I've said they are, because they are more efficient; they use far
>fewer CPU cycles, and less disk space, to accomplish the same task.

Mailing lists and news groups don't accomplish the same tasks.

>What features of net news are not replaced by mailing lists?

Distributed routing of articles is one example.

>Another good point. And that supports my case; if people thought net
>news had a future, they would have standardized it by now.

Standards for news move slowly. For that matter, consider how long
e-mail internationalization took, almost a decade after FTP and HTML.

[Markus Schöpflin]

Am 06.04.2013 09:04, schrieb Gour:

> Let me inform you that I got confirmation email from the Gmane
> maintainer (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen) - the same guy who is behind Gnus
> (hint, hint...) saying:
>
> "Subscription messages for the requested mailing lists have been sent.
> The resulting groups will be created when the first message
> arrives from the mailing lists."
>
> so, if everything is OK, the list should be available as:
>
> gmane.comp.lang.ada.emacs

First of all, thank you very much for taking care of the registration.

As the group has not yet been created on gmane, maybe the registration still
needs to be accepted by Stephen?

Markus

[Gour]

Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:

> As the group has not yet been created on gmane, maybe the registration
> still needs to be accepted by Stephen?

I also think so, although the group is listed here:

http://gmane.org/find.php?list=gmane.comp.lang.ada


Sincerely,
Gour

--

[Stephen Leake]

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes:

> In <85eheqn...@stephe-leake.org>, on 04/04/2013
> at 04:10 AM, Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> said:
>
>>I've said they are, because they are more efficient; they use far
>>fewer CPU cycles, and less disk space, to accomplish the same task.
>
> Mailing lists and news groups don't accomplish the same tasks.

What tasks are different?

The only task I care about is reading messages that other people send,
organized in groups. They both do that.

>>What features of net news are not replaced by mailing lists?
>
> Distributed routing of articles is one example.

That's an implementation detail, not normally visible to the end user.

--
-- Stephe

[Stephen Leake]

If you think I need to do something, you'll have to be more specific. I
have not gotten any emails suggesting "accept registration".

--
-- Stephe

[Gour]

Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> If you think I need to do something, you'll have to be more specific. I
> have not gotten any emails suggesting "accept registration".

Have you checked your spam folder or how the list does manage posts from
non-members?

Maybe you can also try to reply to my message there in order to trigger
creation of the group.


Sincerely,
Gour

--
The senses are so strong and impetuous, O Arjuna,
that they forcibly carry away the mind even of a man
of discrimination who is endeavoring to control them.

[Stephen Leake]

Gour <go...@atmarama.net> writes:

> Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:
>
>> If you think I need to do something, you'll have to be more specific. I
>> have not gotten any emails suggesting "accept registration".
>
> Have you checked your spam folder

yes

>or how the list does manage posts from
> non-members?

that shows up in my inbox also.

> Maybe you can also try to reply to my message there in order to trigger
> creation of the group.

I don't know what you mean by "there".

--
-- Stephe

[Gour]

Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:

> I don't know what you mean by "there".

Not here, iow. sending reply to the ada.emac-mode list.


Sincerely,
Goue

--
Perform your prescribed duty, for doing so is better than not
working. One cannot even maintain one's physical body without work.

[Markus Schöpflin]

Am 12.04.2013 14:07, schrieb Gour:

> Stephen Leake <stephe...@stephe-leake.org> writes:
>
>> I don't know what you mean by "there".
>
> Not here, iow. sending reply to the ada.emac-mode list.

The following just popped up on gmane.announce:

---%<---
The newsgroup gmane.comp.lang.ada.emacs has been created.
The subject of the first message posted was

Subject: [Emacs-ada-mode] Gmane testing...


This newsgroup corresponds to the emacs-ada-mode mailing list.
--->%---

Thanks a lot to all people involved.

Markus

[Gour]

Markus Schöpflin <no....@spam.spam> writes:

> Thanks a lot to all people involved.

I've unsubscribed from the list now and wonder if one could still post
via Gmane, so, pls. create some new topic so that I do not pollute the
list further with my 'Gmane testing' :-)


Sincerely,
Gour

--
One who sees inaction in action, and action in inaction,
is intelligent among men, and he is in the transcendental position,
although engaged in all sorts of activities.