African-American Providers or providers that CARE!!!
Siddiq Theodile Bello
I am looking for a service provider that is either African-American or a
provider who has some knowledge of and care for the African-American
community.
I have some clients that I would like to provide Internet access but
"regular" providers like panix and netcom are not exactly pumped on our
communities and so were not pumped on them (I say this as a panix user).
The service provider must have the following available; T1 backbone,
SLIP/PPP accounts, automatic return mailers, option sub domains, local
dail up in the NY and/or NJ. If you fit the bill or know someone who does
send me mail.
Thanks
Siddiq
Jeff Lindstrom
: I am looking for a service provider that is either African-American or a
I see nothing in your list of desires which is race-specific. What is
it about Panix and Netcom which is not sympathetic to the
African-American community?
--
Regards,
Jeff Lindstrom jeff...@netcom.com
Stuart Yoder
I am looking for a service provider that is either Swiss-American or a
provider who has some knowledge of and care for the Swiss-American
community.
I have some clients that I would like to provide Internet access but
"regular" providers like panix and netcom are not exactly pumped on our
communities and so were not pumped on them (I say this as a panix user).
The service provider must have the following available; T1 backbone,
SLIP/PPP accounts, automatic return mailers, option sub domains, local
dail up in the NY and/or NJ. If you fit the bill or know someone who does
send me mail.
Stuart
Brian
>Siddiq Theodile Bello (sid...@panix.com) wrote:
>> Hello,
>
>> I am looking for a service provider that is either African-American or a
>> provider who has some knowledge of and care for the African-American
>> community.
>> I have some clients that I would like to provide Internet access but
>> "regular" providers like panix and netcom are not exactly pumped on our
>> communities and so were not pumped on them (I say this as a panix user).
>> The service provider must have the following available; T1 backbone,
>> SLIP/PPP accounts, automatic return mailers, option sub domains, local
>> dail up in the NY and/or NJ. If you fit the bill or know someone who does
>> send me mail.
Hello,
I am looking for a service provider that is either Croatian-American or a
provider who has some knowledge of and care for the Croation-American
Kelly Fenner
|> Hello,
|>
|> I am looking for a service provider that is either African-American or a
|> provider who has some knowledge of and care for the African-American
|> community.
Hey Siddiq, What do you have against the service providers that are say,
Haitian-American, or Chinese-American, or just plain ol' American?
Kelly
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ The difference between men and boys, is the size of their feet and +
+ the price of their toys. +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Kelly Fenner @ U.S. Army Research Laboratory (410)-278-6724 +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mike Haight
: Oh, come on Stuart. Most everyone - including you probably - makes
: decisions based on like-interest ideals.
Speak for yourself.
: Nothing wrong with that and nothing
: wrong with at least trying to choose a NET providor along the same lines.
Yes, God forbid we _all_ start working together as a unified front for the
betterment of _all_ in this society. Perhaps that is too much to ask, thus
the divisions continue.
: My
: last comment on the issue - I don't think we need a thread on this.
Just following up your last "contribution" to this thread (that you
say we don't need, but saw fit to add to).
--
Michael Haight mi...@sh-gpl.ti.com
Christopher M Grawburg
In article <37gojo$j...@illuminati.io.com>, yo...@io.com (Stuart Yoder) writes:
Siddiq Theodile Bello (sid...@panix.com) wrote:
> Hello,
> I am looking for a service provider that is either African-American or a
> provider who has some knowledge of and care for the African-American
> community.
> I have some clients that I would like to provide Internet access but
> "regular" providers like panix and netcom are not exactly pumped on our
> communities and so were not pumped on them (I say this as a panix user).
> The service provider must have the following available; T1 backbone,
> SLIP/PPP accounts, automatic return mailers, option sub domains, local
> dail up in the NY and/or NJ. If you fit the bill or know someone who does
> send me mail.
I am looking for a service provider that is either German-North Carolinian-
American or a
provider who has some knowledge of and care for the German-North Carolinian-
American community.
I have some clients that I would like to provide Internet access but
"regular" providers like panix and netcom are not exactly pumped on our
communities and so were not pumped on them (I say this as a panix user).
The service provider must have the following available; T1 backbone,
SLIP/PPP accounts, automatic return mailers, option sub domains, local
dail up in the NY and/or NJ. If you fit the bill or know someone who does
send me mail.
Gunther-Bubba Jones
Jeff Zucker
sid...@panix.com (Siddiq Theodile Bello) wrote:
> I am looking for a service provider that is either African-American or a
> provider who has some knowledge of and care for the African-American
> community.
> ...
To which there have been a number of snide rejoinders about Swiss-Americans,
Croatian-Americans, etc. but (unless I missed something) no serious replies.
First, to the original poster, my suggestion is to try out one of the many
progressive organizations on the net for example, the Institute for Global
Communications (igc.apc.org) which supports PeaceNet, ConflictNet, etc. and
has subject areas on Human Rights and does, I believe provide access services.
If your clients are community-based or not-for-profit organizations, you might
see if one of the local universities can provide the access (altho their
sensitivity on ethnic issues is also questionable in some cases). I can't
vouch for their politics, but pipeline.com is a NYC area provider that is
developing a good reputation among users.
Second, to the people who posted snide rejoinders: get a life. If you haven't
figured out that African-Americans are systematically underserved in most
areas of American life (and now, perhaps even more on the Net), then you don't
belong on the Net, you should be out on the sidewalk or the subway where you
can see some reality. No, cancel that: just look around the Net now -- do you
see a strong African-American or other minority cultural presence? Is this
a coincidence?
-- Jeff Zucker <jz...@columbia.edu>
Kim Naru (Contr)
I'm not african american and I'm not white And I want a provider which
has neither on it. This siddiq individual is a RACIST or has
a persecution complex(i.e chip on his shoulder).
--kim
Doug Loss
>Second, to the people who posted snide rejoinders: get a life. If you haven't
>figured out that African-Americans are systematically underserved in most
>areas of American life (and now, perhaps even more on the Net), then you don't
>belong on the Net, you should be out on the sidewalk or the subway where you
>can see some reality. No, cancel that: just look around the Net now -- do you
>see a strong African-American or other minority cultural presence? Is this
>a coincidence?
Jeff, what race am I? How can you tell what race, ethnic group, religion,
etc. someone posting on the net belongs to unless they make a point to tell
you? I'd venture that you'd be surprised to find out some of that info about
people you've regularly interacted with on the net.
I agree with you that there's no point to the snide rejoinders. I also agree
with some previous posters that every access provider I've ever dealt with was
only interested in one thing about me: my ability to pay my bills promptly.
No other personal characteristics were considered.
Doug Loss Sin lies only in hurting other
Data Network Coordinator people unnecessarily. All other
Bloomsburg University "sins" are invented nonsense.
lo...@husky.bloomu.edu (Hurting yourself is not sinful--
Voice (717) 389-4797 just stupid.)
DaveHatunen
Mark A. Arcuri <psy...@satelnet.org> wrote:
>Oh, come on Stuart. Most everyone - including you probably - makes decisions
>wrong with at least trying to choose a NET providor along the same lines. My
From your comment, I think we very much need a thread on this...
Just what makes an internet provider in tune with the African-American
community (or is it communities -- plural)?
Netcom has damn near every service there is, and has no way to know
what color you are (although I suppose a name like Chan could give a
clue).
Could someone get specific about this?
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@netcom.com) **********
* Daly City California: *
* where San Francisco meets The Peninsula *
* and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea *
*******************************************************
Frank Peters
>
>Second, to the people who posted snide rejoinders: get a life. If you haven't
>figured out that African-Americans are systematically underserved in most
>areas of American life
Irrelevant. The question is whether African-Americans (or members of
any other minority) are systematically underserved by Panix or Netcom
(as was implied by the original request). The fact that
African-Americans have suffered on the sidewalk or the subway (or the
employment office or Denny's restaurants or anywhere else) does not
constitute evidence that these network service provider companies are
failing to serve them fairly.
A request for service providers who provide services specifically
directed toward African-American customers (AA directed discussion
groups, web archives and the like) would have been quite reasonable.
But the actual request strongly suggested that Panix and Netcom are
slighting their AA customers...a suggestion which does not deserve to
go unquestioned.
> do you
>see a strong African-American or other minority cultural presence? Is this
>a coincidence?
Well, its hard to tell. There is nothing about the name "Jeff Zucker" to
tell me whether you are of european or african ancestry. Nor is there
anything about the name "Frank Peters" to tell you this about me. That
leads to an interesting question. Do Panix and/or Netcom know the race
of their customers (barring those with obvious ethnic names)?
But I do agree that African-Americans are almost certainly under
represented on the net. You have yet to show that this shortage is
because companies like Panix and Netcom do not fairly serve their AA
customers. I suspect that social ills like under representation at
major universities (which still form the larges network user community)
and lower income levels of African-Americans (less spare income to put
into paying for a network connection) are more to blame than
discrimination by service providers.
--
Frank Peters - UNIX Systems Group Leader - Mississippi State University
Internet: f...@CC.MsState.Edu - Phone: 601-325-7030 - FAX: 601-325-8921
WWW Home Page: http://www.msstate.edu/~fwp/
Name withheld by request
a white only provider, but a non RACIST act to request a black only
provider?
Do you have the courage to answer this honestly?
Tim Pierce
Brian <bne...@sunny.dab.ge.com> wrote:
> I am looking for a service provider that is either Croatian-American or a
> provider who has some knowledge of and care for the Croation-American
> community.
> I have some clients that I would like to provide Internet access but
> "regular" providers like panix and netcom are not exactly pumped on our
> communities and so were not pumped on them (I say this as a panix user).
> The service provider must have the following available; T1 backbone,
> SLIP/PPP accounts, automatic return mailers, option sub domains, local
> dail up in the NY and/or NJ. If you fit the bill or know someone who does
> send me mail.
Hello,
I am looking for a service provider that is either an idiot
or a provider who has some knowledge of and care for idiots.
I have some clients that I wouild like to provide Internet
access but our "regular" providers like panix and netcom
are not exactly pumped on our communities and so ...
Oh, wait! They *have* done that!
So sorry.
--
"A person who dies of lung cancer at age 70 will not be hospitalized later
with another disease," said a study released Thursday by [Canada's] Imperial
Tobacco touting the benefits of early death in smokers on the health-care
system. (Reuters, in the Chicago _Tribune_, 9/3/94)
Robert Cordingley
>provider who has some knowledge of and care for the African-American
>community.
That's just great. Take the one venue where race absolutely *CAN'T* matter,
and introduce racism. I'm sorry, but if you didn't shove your race in my
face, I would never know (or care) what color your skin is. Get a clue and
stop being a racist.
Robert
Peter Flynn
Being that I am African-american, I can say that is is far from
being "R-A-C-I-A-L" to request information on services directed
towards a specific group. What is wrong with wanting perhaps to
support your own? No one complains when and if Asian-americans
group together, or Croatian-Americans DO work together. But as soon
as an African-American wants to do the same.. it's Racist.....get
a grip people...
I see nothing wrong in it: if I was in the USA and I found an Internet
service run by an Irishman, I'd probably want to use it too.
But I suspect I'd get a different reaction if I posted that I wanted a
service run by whites for whites.
Get a grip...be proud of your heritage, but be sure you apply the same
standard to others that you wish applied to yourselves.
///Peter
--
Peter Flynn | pfl...@curia.ucc.ie | ...persuade users that spreading
Computer Centre | +353 21 276871 x2609 | fonts across the page like peanut
University College | +353 21 277194 (fax) | butter across hot toast is not the
Cork, Ireland | Opinions are my own. | route to typographic excellence...
Henry B. Hotz
services do you want that actually relate to being African-American?
The things that I can think of are Points of Presence in A-A community
telephone areas, and Network News service for whatever A-A oriented
newsgroups there are. I would think you could get those things from
almost any provider, especially if you represent more users than just
yourself.
If you actually have any difficulty, have you considered setting up
your own service? It only takes $5000 to $10000 in equipment plus
phone lines from what I've heard and there must be some university
types who would be willing to help with the setup.
________________________________________
Henry B. Hotz ho...@libra.loral.com
73730...@compuserve.com
The opinions expressed are my own,
not Loral's, and not Librascope's.
Mark A. Arcuri
>I see nothing wrong in it: if I was in the USA and I found an Internet
>service run by an Irishman, I'd probably want to use it too.
>But I suspect I'd get a different reaction if I posted that I wanted a
>service run by whites for whites.
Your points are well taken, Peter, but the poor guy never said he wanted a
service run BY anyone FOR anyone. He simply said he was looking for a service
either run by African-Americans (not necessarily FOR them) or by ANYONE who is
sensitive to that community's needs. That's it.
...Mark. (who said his first and only post would be his last, I know)
psy...@satelnet.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man's main task in life
is to give birth to himself,
to become what he potentially is.
---Erich Fromm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randolph Chung
>a white only provider, but a non RACIST act to request a black only
>provider?
what does racism have to do with choosing a provider? I really don't get it...
i'm not white, nor black, nor do I care who it is that I get my internet
access from. This argument (IMHO) is totally unnecessary and only serves to
bring about misunderstandings -- the original author of the message probably
didn't mean the things that some of the other posters subsequently posted.
Moreover, this thread does not belong in these newsgroup, so please STOP this
line of argument, everyone. If you want to argue, do it in private email.
>Do you have the courage to answer this honestly?
And do you have the courage to not send such un-founded messages anonymously?
Randolph
@..@
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* (----) *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Randolph Chung ( >__< ) Internet: rc...@cornell.edu
BioChem/CS student ^^ ~~ ^^ CLASSlink: 20:256/4
WWW page: http://tausq.resnet.cornell.edu/
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
V-X
>Being that I am African-american, I can say that is is far from being
>"R-A-C-I-A-L" to request information on services directed towards a specific
>group. What is wrong with wanting perhaps to support your own? No one
>complains when and if Asian-americans group together, or Croatian-Americans
>DO work together. But as soon as an African-American wants to do the same..
>it's Racist.....get a grip people...
If you were talking about an on-line service like AOL or C$erve I could
understand that, but net access is that strange and wonderfully democratic
thing, in that it's entirely what you make it. A provider does nothing but
hook you up to a machine and provide the software you'll need to access
services. Other than that, it's up to you. If there isn't a newsgroup that
serves you, you propose one. (I mean, anybody can create an alt.* group about
anything--look at all those empty groups with names like
alt.I.love.my.own.buttocks.) If there aren't enough African-American WWW
sites for you, you create your own. Set up an FTP site. Do whatever.
This is a strange world (the 'net, I mean), and in some ways an ideal one, and
one where claims of discrimination based on skin color ring especially hollow.
Straight and narrow but still opposed to Measure 13.
===============================
Coming Soon: The World Wide Web Jack Chick Archive!
Send comments/contributions to v...@teleport.com or
dej...@athmail1.causeway.qub.ac.uk.
V-X
> Some of the more ignorant responses went so far as to say that certian
>providers dont care what color the subscribers are, well thats exactly my
>point I am looking for a service provider that does.
'Nuff said.
Jeff Lindstrom
Let's Don't Wait Til The Water Runs Dry <kei...@ecst.csuchico.edu> wrote:
>Being that I am African-american, I can say that is is far from being
>"R-A-C-I-A-L" to request information on services directed towards a specific
>group.
What Mr. Bello requested was an ISP which is "pumped" on the
African-American community. I, and others, are very curious as to what a
company must do to meet his requirements.
The internet is color-blind and those people he wishes to connect will
have FAR more encounters with the Internet itself than they will with the
personnel in the ISP (unless they are having lots of problems).
His very question implies that Panix and Netcom have racist practices
which make access by African-Americans more difficult, but he provides no
information to support his implication.
> What is wrong with wanting perhaps to support your own? No one
>complains when and if Asian-americans group together, or Croatian-Americans
>DO work together. But as soon as an African-American wants to do the same..
>it's Racist.....get a grip people...
If he wishes to find an ISP which is owned and operated by
African-Americans, he could have asked (although I doubt your response to
a post by a white person asking for an ISP which has *no*
African-Americans on staff would be so tolerant).
Jeff Lindstrom
Mark A. Arcuri <psy...@satelnet.org> wrote:
>>But I suspect I'd get a different reaction if I posted that I wanted a
>>service run by whites for whites.
>
>Your points are well taken, Peter, but the poor guy never said he wanted a
>service run BY anyone FOR anyone. He simply said he was looking for a service
>either run by African-Americans (not necessarily FOR them) or by ANYONE who is
>sensitive to that community's needs. That's it.
I would like an explanation of the special needs the African-American
community has regarding Internet access.
Let's Don't Wait Til The Water Runs Dry
presence of African-americans on the net. Links to organizations that are
for the most part African-American would be better serviced, and simply
more accessible by our community, if provided by a provider that is geared
towards the AA community, whereas another commercial provider may not have
that as accessible.
-k
*****************************************************************************
***** Keisha Square ********** kei...@ecst.csuchico.edu *****
***** California State ********** Keish...@aol.com *****
***** University, Chico ********** Kees...@aol.com *****
*****************************************************************************
Siddiq Theodile Bello
Arcuri) wrote:
> Your points are well taken, Peter, but the poor guy never said he wanted a
> service run BY anyone FOR anyone. He simply said he was looking for a service
> either run by African-Americans (not necessarily FOR them) or by ANYONE
who is
> sensitive to that community's needs. That's it.
Of all the 17 responses this is one of the few that actually sounds like
he is responding to my post. READ before you respond!! The reason I would
like an African American or some who cares about the AA community is
because the Internet in general and Panix, Netcom and many of the others
I've run across are full of folks (like those that responded with
ignorance instead of information) who are White, Male and have NO CLUE
about the interest concerns needs and goals African community. Another
thing is, why would I want to support Netcom or Panix (I'm sure employ
very few African) when I can give it to someone who will at least hire us,
if they existed.
Siddiq
Jeff Lindstrom
Jeff Zucker <jz...@bonjour.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
>Second, to the people who posted snide rejoinders: get a life. If you haven't
>figured out that African-Americans are systematically underserved in most
>areas of American life (and now, perhaps even more on the Net), then you don't
>belong on the Net, you should be out on the sidewalk or the subway where you
>can see some reality. No, cancel that: just look around the Net now -- do you
>see a strong African-American or other minority cultural presence? Is this
>a coincidence?
You imply that a racial variance from the whole of the population is de
facto racism. This implication fails to take into account cultural
factors unrelated to race. To prove this, we can look at various product
lines developed in (all white) Europe over the last few centuries.
Crystal is made in Ireland or Austria, not in Spain or France.
The finest pastires are French, not Italian.
German and Italian autos are more highly prized than Yugoslavian or
Spanish models.
If you want a good guitar, you go to Spain, not Britain.
Good suits? Go to Italy or Savile Row in London, not Belgium or Denmark.
Are white people over-represented on the Net? Absolutely... just like
men outnumber women, young outnumber old, students outnumber businessmen,
scientists outnumber artists.
These realities are not racist, sexist, ageist, nor technocratic
because the only barrier to access is *money* (and even that is not much
of a barrier with computers and access so cheap).
Craig Nordin
We are a small access provider located in the center of Baltimore,MD
and we care, even though the small group of us is white, white, white.
I've tried various pitches to the very prominent black organizations
here, but I guess I haven't done the right thing yet, because I get
only a tepid response.
I've reached out to The Baltimore Afro-American, NAACP, Morgan State,
and nothing of a real response yet.
I don't understand it either. This connectivity is empowering and
can bridge people who feel isolated so easily.
There is an exploding information-set on the web now about Africa
and AAs. Charm Net would look forward to communicating a strong
will towards getting involved with the majority race of this fine
city.
Just call me AWB
Have a good day...
--
See the Emerald on the Matrix? Baltimore, Maryland Access to the Internet
That's Charm.Net Hon! E-Mail: in...@charm.net Voice:(410) 558.3900
http://www.charm.net/ "guest" login, no password Data:(410) 558.3300
Siddiq Theodile Bello
> Your points are well taken, Peter, but the poor guy never said he wanted a
> service run BY anyone FOR anyone. He simply said he was looking for a service
> either run by African-Americans (not necessarily FOR them) or by ANYONE
who is
> sensitive to that community's needs. That's it.
Of the 40 odd responses this is one of the few that actually sounds like
he is responding to my post. READ before you respond!! The reason I would
like an African American provider or some who cares about the AA community is
because the Internet in general, and Panix, Netcom and many of the others
I've run across are full of folks (like those that responded with
ignorance instead of information) who are White, Male and have NO CLUE
about the interest concerns needs and goals of the African community.
Some of the more ignorant responses went so far as to say that certian
providers dont care what color the subscribers are, well thats exactly my
point I am looking for a service provider that does. The Net is composed
primarily of white Males, and what your response show more then anything
is YOUR hostility to others encroaching on what you percieve to be YOUR
teritory. GET a grip!!!Get a life!!! You folks need to wake up.
Thanks
Siddiq
V-X
>There are indeed resources on the net, that would service the needs of the
>presence of African-americans on the net. Links to organizations that are
>for the most part African-American would be better serviced, and simply
>more accessible by our community, if provided by a provider that is geared
>towards the AA community, whereas another commercial provider may not have
>that as accessible.
What?
George Matthew Regnery
>
>Second, to the people who posted snide rejoinders: get a life. If you haven't
>figured out that African-Americans are systematically underserved in most
>areas of American life (and now, perhaps even more on the Net), then you don't
>belong on the Net, you should be out on the sidewalk or the subway where you
>can see some reality. No, cancel that: just look around the Net now -- do you
>see a strong African-American or other minority cultural presence? Is this
>a coincidence?
I have looked around the net, but I still can't figure out a way to tell
if someone is black or white, unless they volunteer that information. I
don't yet have the technology to peer through someone's computer screen to
see if they are black or white. In fact, the net is probably one of the
most colorblind communities out there, simply because you have no idea
what race most of the posters belong to.
--
George M. Regnery | "Geschichte ist keine Abfolge von Daten, sondern ein
reg...@ix.netcom.com | sich ueber die Dimension der Zeit erstreckendes Netz
----------------------| in welchem Vergangenheit, Gegenwart und Zukunft
zusammengewoben sind als Schicksal." --Cusco, von Ring der Delphine
DaveHatunen
Jeff Zucker <jz...@bonjour.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
Stop being so PC and think for a change. He didn't ask for a BBS that
was African-American. That would make sense. He asked for an internet
provider that was slanted to African-Americans. What on earth is ethnic
about the programs telnet, or ftp, or gopher, or whatever??? Those were
the only sort of specific requirements he mentioned.
The major providers, such as Netcom (as opposed to on-line services
like AOL) are about as neutral ethnically as they come. Except for
being a bit nerd-oriented. By defintition, nerdism is probably an
ethnos.
Martin H. Booda
|>
|> Hello,
|>
|> I am looking for a service provider that is either an idiot
|> or a provider who has some knowledge of and care for idiots.
Sorry, Tim, but I don't think AOL supports Web access.
Hope this helps.
--
USENET:Artifact Creature, Casting Cost 1B. Summon Net. 10/2, Rampage: 3. Swamp-
walk,Trample,Regeneration,Lure,First Strike.Gains 2 pts of power for each point
of black mana. Negates banding and protection of all creatures in play. Text:
"Legend has it that the Net used to be nastier,but how could that be?"Martin H.
Booda(bo...@navo.navy.mil)|Ocean Springs,MS bans lasers! Incoherent film at 11.
Ed Rybicki
>Subject: Re: African-American Providers or provider
>>> I am looking for a service provider that is either African-American or a
>>> provider who has some knowledge of and care for the African-American
>>> community.
>>> I have some clients that I would like to provide Internet access but
> I am looking for a service provider that is either Croatian-American or a
> provider who has some knowledge of and care for the Croation-American
> community.
> I have some clients that I would like to provide Internet access but
Hi - I am looking for a service provider that is either South African or
Zambian-American, and who gives a damn whether these communities live or die...
Really, people.
___________________________________________________________________
| Ed Rybicki, PhD | "Lord, won't you buy me |
| (e...@molbiol.uct.ac.za) | |
| Dept Microbiology | A Mer-ce-des Benz..." |
| University of Cape Town | |
| Private Bag, Rondebosch | "My friends all drive Porsches |
| 7700, South Africa | |
| fax: 27-21-650 4023 | I must make amends..." |
| phone: 650-3265 | (Janis Joplin, Pearl, 1971) |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Kholmyansky
I totally agree with the above. This whole line of followups is pissing me off.
It's time to STOP THIS CRAP people!!!! Leave Siddiq alone if you don't have any
*usefull* information for him.
--
Alexander Kholmyansky "Spinning tales about silence..."
email: al...@marcam.com
Disclaimer: My opinions are strictly my own.
Mike Haight
[...]
: The reason I would
: like an African American or some who cares about the AA community is
: because the Internet in general and Panix, Netcom and many of the others
: I've run across are full of folks (like those that responded with
: ignorance instead of information) who are White, Male and have NO CLUE
: about the interest concerns needs and goals African community. Another
: thing is, why would I want to support Netcom or Panix (I'm sure employ
: very few African) when I can give it to someone who will at least hire us,
: if they existed.
: Siddiq
Shabby, very shabby. You have one heck of an attitude. Lose it and you will
find that the goals of the "African community" (what happened to
American there?) are not all that different that anyone elses goals.
Stick with that loss of attitude for awhile and you'll find you will
even get hired (oh oh, that American is missing again), promoted and
even rich.
Your choice, status quo or try somthing different.
--
Michael Haight mi...@sh-gpl.ti.com
BILL SMARGIASSI
>Being that I am African-american, I can say that is is far from being
>"R-A-C-I-A-L" to request information on services directed towards a specific
>complains when and if Asian-americans group together, or Croatian-Americans
>DO work together. But as soon as an African-American wants to do the same..
>it's Racist.....get a grip people...
>
I was going to ignore this thread...:-)
I will not argue that African-Americans are underserved (under-a-lot-of-
things), that would be pretty stupid. However, it would also be pretty
short-sighted to not see the racism inherent in the original post.
Net access has *nothing* to do with race. Since we can't see each other,
it has the potential for true equality. Of course, this ideal doesn't
really happen. Names can sometimes reveal things, esp Male/Female, so
racism/sexism/ageism/etcism happens. I hate it.
I think that most of us that felt the original post was racist would
feel the same if an Asian-American posted the same thing, I know I
would. Please, don't lump the rest of the world into the class of
racist. There isn't anything wrong with 'working together', but
choosing business deals on the basis of race pretty much fits the
description of discrimination. If I said I was looking for access
from French/Italian/Irish/English/Ukrainian/Czech/Austrian (my
heritage...but we'll call it 'white' for argument) that would be
racist. The whole point of the matter is putting any group in place
of African-American or 'white' is racist.
Just my $0.02.
Bill Smargiassi
Programmer/Feminist/Hater of racism/Supporter of Gay Rights
Bill Sanford
>There are indeed resources on the net, that would service the needs of the
>presence of African-americans on the net. Links to organizations that are
>for the most part African-American would be better serviced, and simply
>more accessible by our community, if provided by a provider that is geared
>towards the AA community, whereas another commercial provider may not have
>that as accessible.
> -k
So, in fact what you are saying is that you want the net to start to get
racist. I have *NEVER* heard of an internet provider that has refused a
newsgroup (or any other group) access based on race. If you start a
group, the people *in* the group make it or break it. We all have
differences, that is exactly why all of the thousands of groups exist.
What ever ethnic origin you are, what ever physical shape, whatever kind
of make-up the person is, they can get access to the internet. The only
way you can get what you want in the world, is to treat people like people.
Don't treat them like a number, a color, a race, or religion, to name a
few.
I saw a cartoon a while back and it has a dog sitting at a computer
terminal and one on the floor. The dog at the terminal was talking to the
one on the floor, and said "No one knows you are a dog on the Internet."
I think once we eliminate the prejudicial issues that plague us, we can
really get to share useful information about ourselves and about the world
each one of us live in. I can only hope.
Bill
--
* Bill Sanford | (bsan...@wang.com) *
* Wang Laboratories, Inc | Client/Server Imaging *
* *
* "Huh uh huh uh uhuh huh, He said WANG!" *
Jeff Lindstrom
>Very mature of you all to mock Siddiq.
Not all of us mocked him, but we are all disturbed by the racism
inherent in his request.
Regards,
Jeff Lindstrom
Mark A. Arcuri
based on like-interest ideals. Nothing wrong with that and nothing
wrong with at least trying to choose a NET providor along the same lines. My
last comment on the issue - I don't think we need a thread on this.
...Mark.
OS/2 Now!
I'll second that Hr. Yoder!
D. Flueckinger (formery Hutwil)
yo...@io.com wrote:
:a> Siddiq Theodile Bello (sid...@panix.com) wrote:
[drivel from siddig deleted]
:a> I am looking for a service provider that is either Swiss-American or a
:a> provider who has some knowledge of and care for the Swiss-American
:a> community.
[snip]
:a> Stuart
Doug Loss
> Some of the more ignorant responses went so far as to say that certian
>providers dont care what color the subscribers are, well thats exactly my
>point I am looking for a service provider that does. The Net is composed
>primarily of white Males, and what your response show more then anything
>is YOUR hostility to others encroaching on what you percieve to be YOUR
>teritory. GET a grip!!!Get a life!!! You folks need to wake up.
How is not caring about a subscriber's color being hostile to them? Are you
saying that not getting preferential treatment is a form of hostility or
discrimination? If so, I think my dictionary needs updating.
Doug Loss Sin lies only in hurting other
Data Network Coordinator people unnecessarily. All other
Bloomsburg University "sins" are invented nonsense.
lo...@husky.bloomu.edu (Hurting yourself is not sinful--
Voice (717) 389-4797 just stupid.)
Let's Don't Wait Til The Water Runs Dry
-k
Let's Don't Wait Til The Water Runs Dry
"R-A-C-I-A-L" to request information on services directed towards a specific
group. What is wrong with wanting perhaps to support your own? No one
complains when and if Asian-americans group together, or Croatian-Americans
DO work together. But as soon as an African-American wants to do the same..
it's Racist.....get a grip people...
-k
Glenn Randers-Pehrson
Sometimes it is ok to specifically request, that a minority group
be chosen to do the job. The U.S. Federal Government does the same
thing that Mz. Bello did, but maybe in less inflammatory language:
HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES and UNIVERSITIES and OTHER MINORITY
INSTITUTIONS - SET-ASIDE
The Historically Black Colleges and Universities and Other Minority
Institutions (HBCU/MI) Program has its genesis in Executive Order 12320,
and it has been expanded by the passage of PL 99-661 Section 1207, PL
100-180 Section 806, and PL 101-189 Section 831.
[...]
To this end, and in accordance with DFARS 235.016, the research areas
listed below and described in this document are set aside exclusively
for HBCU/MI consideration. Proposals submitted by other than HBCU/MIs
in these research areas will not be considered for award.
<pre>
Topic No. Title
1.9 Distributed Hypermedia Applications
[....]
</pre>
for more information, see the "Broad Agency Announcement" link at the
bottom of the Army Research Laboratory's home page:
(If your browser supports HTML,
<a href="http://www.arl.mil/">select this link</a> to see the ARL home page.)
If you are a "HBCU/MI" you might want to put in a proposal (not to me,
though; follow the instructions in the BAA!).
[standard disclaimer: The statements in this message are not to
be construed as an official Department of the Army position, unless
so designated by other authorized documents.] ... Glenn Randers-Pehrson
Mike Kelsey
equally applicable, or not, to each of them. With proper crossposting, the
bandwidth usage (though not the signal-to-noise ratio) is independent of
the number of groups. ]
In article <37h7em$q...@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>, jz...@bonjour.cc.columbia.edu (Jeff Zucker) writes:
[ Good, reasonable suggestion to the original poster deleted. Thanks for
not joining the snide-comment crowd :-/ ]
|>
|> Second, to the people who posted snide rejoinders: get a life. If you haven't
|> figured out that African-Americans are systematically underserved in most
|> areas of American life (and now, perhaps even more on the Net), then you don't
|> belong on the Net, you should be out on the sidewalk or the subway where you
|> can see some reality. No, cancel that: just look around the Net now -- do you
|> see a strong African-American or other minority cultural presence? Is this
|> a coincidence?
Why do I sense a conspiracy-theorist here, or at least someone who blames
any example or hypothesis of inequity on malice?
I have no idea whether there is a "strong African-American ... presence"
on the Net or not. I have been repeatedly embarrassed by making the
assumption that the person I was communicating with was a white
European-heritage male (i.e., someone just like me). One of the nice
things (or terrible things, if you are into confrontation) about the Net
is that it is truly color-blind. That is, whatever the race, religion,
gender or orientation of the person typing the messages, the font in which
I read those messages is identical.
Obviously, I can try to guess a person's heritage or state from their name
(but I screwed up badly with "Andrea Parri," a male Italian physicist), or
from their viewpoint, or from what they put in their sig (but is an
upside-down triangle indicative of the person's orientation, or their
best-friend's, or just their political views?). Maybe I should try to
guess if a person is black or white based on their grammar, spelling, or
tone (but there seem to be an awful lot of computer programmers out their
who couldn't spell to safe there life :-). Maybe I should try to guess
from the content of their posts (but are you, Mr. Zucker, a militant black
or a liberal white?).
Yes, there are inequities. Yes, there is bias and prejudice against African-
Americans. But why must we assume that every case of inequity is a result
of current, active, malicious bias. Why not consider that maybe, just
maybe, a correlation doesn't always imply a cause.
-- Mike Kelsey
--
[ My opinions are not endorsed by SLAC, Caltech, or the US government ]
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire
off the shoulder of Orion. I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark
near the Tannhauser Gate. All these moments will be lost in time,
like tears in rain." -- Roy Baty
Andrew Funk
Siddiq Theodile Bello <sid...@panix.com> wrote:
> Some of the more ignorant responses went so far as to say that certian
>providers dont care what color the subscribers are, well thats exactly my
>point I am looking for a service provider that does.
Please, for the sake of argument, take a look at how the above would be
percieved if it were written by someone who stated that he was a white male.
And what's ignorant about not caring about the color of subscribers?
Gee, perhaps my memory is failing me, but I *thought* the civil rights
struggle's goal was for a society where people were judged for who there
are, not for the color of their skin.
> The Net is composed
>primarily of white Males, and what your response show more then anything
>is YOUR hostility to others encroaching on what you percieve to be YOUR
>teritory.
Whoa!
I haven't seen anyone post anything implying encroachment. Rather, it
seems that most people are stating that they don't care about an
individual's race -- it's irrelevant to net access and communication.
>GET a grip!!!Get a life!!! You folks need to wake up.
Why the hostility?
What do people who can't percieve any connection between a person's skin
color and their humanity have to "wake up" to?
Perplexed,
-Andy-
--
______________________ Andrew Funk, KB7UV ______________________
| ENG Editor/Microwave Control, WCBS-TV Channel 2 News, New York |
| Internet: kb...@panix.com Packet: kb7uv@kb7uv.#nli.ny.usa |
| --- INSERT COMMERCIAL HERE --- |
DaveHatunen
Name withheld by request <anon...@nyx.cs.du.edu> wrote:
>So tell me this. Why the hell is it considered a RACIST act to request
>a white only provider, but a non RACIST act to request a black only
>provider?
>
>Do you have the courage to answer this honestly?
Your question is irrelevant to the present discussion, since no one
requested a black only or white only provider.
Do you have the courage to answer honestly why you felt it necessary to
cast the question in this extreme form?
Jeff Zucker
for not quoting from the articles that brought up the points I have summarized
below:
> 1. There's no way to tell what ethnic background someone is on the net,
> the net is color blind.
Try using Mosaic to surf through 100 home pages and tell me how many of
the self portraits are white males. And while you're at it, please find me some
good afro-cuban music web servers and a place where I can download information
about Kwanza or inner-city schools (These sites exist, I just wish there
were more of them). Personally, I don't want color-blindness -- I want
diversity and a whole bunch of people showing off neat stuff about their
cultural background and a place where people of like backgrounds can share
their mutual concerns and a place where people of unlike background can also
share.
> 2. Cash is the only thing access providers care about, their service has
> nothing to do with "personal characteristics" of users.
Cash may be the only consideration in starting up with an access provider, but
what happens when the user wants to get training &/or tech assistance?
Cultural background, age, gender, etc. are very important to anyone's
learning process. Further, most access providers present new users with a
pre-built menu or home page structure with pre-selected URLs. A provider might
very well miss URLs of interest to African Americans or other communities
out of simple ignorance. What do you think is the ratio of heavy metal URLs
to rap URLs and why does a disparity exist? Does it have something to do with
the cultural background of the people creating the URLs?
The point here is not to accuse access providers as a group of racists, but to
point out that there are legitimate cultural concerns in choosing an access
provider and to suggest that any of us who provide user services or manage
web sites have a responsibiltiy to making as many people as possible feel that
they are welcome in cyberspace.
-- Jeff Zucker <jz...@columbia.edu>
Christopher M Grawburg
>IOf the 40 odd responses this is one of the few that actually sounds like
>he is responding to my post. READ before you respond!! The reason I would
>like an African American provider or some who cares about the AA community is
>because the Internet in general, and Panix, Netcom and many of the others
>I've run across are full of folks (like those that responded with
>ignorance instead of information) who are White, Male and have NO CLUE
>about the interest concerns needs and goals of the African community.
> Some of the more ignorant responses went so far as to say that certian
>providers dont care what color the subscribers are, well thats exactly my
>point I am looking for a service provider that does. The Net is composed
>is YOUR hostility to others encroaching on what you percieve to be YOUR
>>teritory. GET a grip!!!Get a life!!! You folks need to wake up.
>>
>Thanks
>Siddiq
I don't believe this. This is absolutely ridiculous. If this isn't PC run
to it's full extent I don't know what is. Here's a crazy idea, wh don't we
all subscribe to a server that meets the needs of Americans...not this
hyphenated-American crap. We are all Americans. At a time when I think we
all agree that we need uninimity (sp) for our citizens, some people still
want to divide the races. So what if the net has a bunch of white guys on it.
YOU obviously aren't white. Why don't you empower your community if things
are so unfair. Make your own little setup and get connected and let the
people in your community join on.
We don't need any more separtism!
Chris
jye...@bga.com
this thread (that was possibly a "flame bait" origional) has replicated *way*
out of scope ... does discussion of the topic need to be replicated in the WWW
specific areas? ... what does it have to do with web-realities?
opinion ... should you feel the need to comment on a post that oushes your
"hot buttons", pay attention to the groups that the origional was in, and only
post to those that are relevent
'wolf
V-X
>Second, to the people who posted snide rejoinders: get a life. If you haven't
>figured out that African-Americans are systematically underserved in most
>areas of American life (and now, perhaps even more on the Net), then you don't
>belong on the Net, you should be out on the sidewalk or the subway where you
>can see some reality. No, cancel that: just look around the Net now -- do you
>see a strong African-American or other minority cultural presence? Is this
>a coincidence?
When I look around the net I can't see what anybody is--I mean, I can make a
good guess if her first name's "Kathy," or his last name's "Wang," but the
only time I usually know if someone's black is when they start whining about
it in public.
Let's Don't Wait Til The Water Runs Dry
clueless....
-k
Let's Don't Wait Til The Water Runs Dry
I dont think I have....
-k
laur...@news.delphi.com
I want to point out: I'm a woman, I choose preferentially women for
professional services. Part of the reason is that I want to support women
as a group, because we are under-privileged relative to men.
If a black person wants to send their money to an organization that hires
black people or is run by them, they certainly have the right. It makes
sense to channel money back to black people, since they are also
under-privileged relative to white people.
I haven't seen any racist practices on the net though it certainly is
mostly a white world.
No e-mail please, I don't want to flame or counter-flame.
Laura
Steven J. Sobol
: Who has said or mentioned ANYTHING about being discriminated against on
I have read the entire thread about Mr. Bello's request with great interest,
and I'd like to put in my ten cents' worth...
I can see how others might see separatism or possibly even racism in
his request. But, I simply do not agree with the statement that the request
is racist, although I don't agree that Panix, Netcom, or any of the other
service providers are racist either. A lot of African-Americans are at
a disadvantage compared to whites, Asians or even other A-A's because
they are living in the inner city. They may not, for whatever reason,
have access to the education or chances for economic advancement that
suburban families have (Pittsburgh being one possible exception - I hear
their school system is *excellent*). Yes, a lot of inner-city families
(whites AND blacks) are trying to cheat welfare so they don't have to
work. Yes, some of them have given up or are so strung out on drugs
they don't even try to find an alternative. BUT there are one hell of
a lot of people who work their asses off and don't get anywhere. I know
a bunch of them. I grew up in a nice suburb, and I've never been in
the position of wondering how to pay rent or feed myself, and I
consider myself lucky. I don't have to worry about the crack house
down the street. I could leave the front door to my house open in
the middle of the night and not have to have too much concern about
whether someone's going to walk in and rob me blind. And I consider
myself lucky.
I think that when Siddiq Bello asked for someone sensitive to the
needs of the African-American community, it wasn't because he thought
they are better than everyone else... he was just looking for a
chance to help people and offer them a service that they would not
otherwise get. And I'm all for that. Information in 1994 is
a commodity, and access is a necessity. People who don't have access
to the Net are going to be left out over the next 10 to 20 years.
And people in the inner cities, many of whom are African American,
simply do not have the money to buy a computer and a modem and
pay a monthly fee for Internet access. I would like to see everyone
with access; I don't think it's practical, unfortunately, but it
would be nice.
--Steve "yeah, I suppose you can call me PC if you want to" Sobol
[ bleeding-heart liberal, and proud of it! :)
On second thought - let's not get politics involved now... ]
--
Steve Sobol sjs...@tiny.com | APK Public Access Internet
Talk/Finger: sjs...@junior.wariat.org | WE *ARE* Internet in Cleveland
IRC: Hopeless | +001 (216) 481-9436
FurryMUCK: HarryNavel | Telnet to JUNIOR.WARIAT.ORG
ste...@shell.portal.com
>Of the 40 odd responses this is one of the few that actually sounds like
>he is responding to my post. READ before you respond!! The reason I would
>like an African American provider or some who cares about the AA community is
>because the Internet in general, and Panix, Netcom and many of the others
>I've run across are full of folks (like those that responded with
>ignorance instead of information) who are White, Male and have NO CLUE
>about the interest concerns needs and goals of the African community.
Can you define what you mean by "interest concerns needs and
goals" and how that can be served in any differing way by a data access
system?
>point I am looking for a service provider that does. The Net is composed
>primarily of white Males, and what your response show more then anything
Do you know of a systematic study of the precise demographic
composition of the net? I'd accept "is PROBABLY composed primarily of
white Males", but, in any case, I certainly don't see any monolithic
"community" where having an African-American provider would guarantee
that your undefined needs would be served.
If Justice Thomas resigned tomorrow from the Supreme Court
and went into the Internet provider business, would you assume right
off that would serve these special "needs"? How about if Louis
Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam set up a service? Jesse Jackson's
Rainbow Coalition? Maybe a joint partnership between Colin Powell
(to build up that money for a presidential run :) ) and Ross Perot,
with Ross in charge of money and Colin in charge of policy?
>is YOUR hostility to others encroaching on what you percieve to be YOUR
>teritory. GET a grip!!!Get a life!!! You folks need to wake up.
To what? My screen is set to blue. This means, I suppose,
that the net is run by Sonic the Hedgehog, and Grover and Cookie Monster
from Sesame Street.
>Thanks
>Siddiq
DaveHatunen
Alex Kholmyansky <al...@marcam.com> wrote:
>|> Some of the more ignorant responses went so far as to say that certian
>|> providers dont care what color the subscribers are, well thats exactly my
>|> point I am looking for a service provider that does. The Net is composed
>|> primarily of white Males, and what your response show more then anything
>|> is YOUR hostility to others encroaching on what you percieve to be YOUR
>|> teritory. GET a grip!!!Get a life!!! You folks need to wake up.
>|>
>|> Thanks
>|> Siddiq
>
>I totally agree with the above. This whole line of followups is pissing me off.
>It's time to STOP THIS CRAP people!!!! Leave Siddiq alone if you don't have any
>*usefull* information for him.
He hasn't asked a useful question, so it's very difficult to give him a
useful answer. I'm beginning to wonder if he actually understands what
the Internet is, since a provider is just a conduit, like the
telephone company. A provider does not provide anything even vaguely
ethnic. Now, the provider can be used to contact newsgroups, BBSs and
systems that might have an ethnic point of view, but that's a different
thing. For the life of me I can't figure out what a provider like
Netcom would provide that would be any different even if it were owned
and operated by AAs.
There are, of course, special interest BBSs and such that do also
provide net access, and in that way function as a net provider. But the
net is secondary to their role as a special interest BBS; e.g., gay
BBSs. Perhaps that is what he's looking for? But most such BBSs don't
necessarily offer really complete Internet services, and, especially not
all the newsgroups. But if that's what he's looking for, he should say
so.
Name withheld by request
>>a white only provider, but a non RACIST act to request a black only
>>provider?
>
>i'm not white, nor black, nor do I care who it is that I get my internet
>access from. This argument (IMHO) is totally unnecessary and only serves to
>bring about misunderstandings -- the original author of the message probably
>didn't mean the things that some of the other posters subsequently posted.
>
When the color of the skin of the provider is required to be of a particular
shade, with no consideration of any thing else ... that is racist behavior.
Whites are condemed when they do it ... blacks are applauded when they do
it.
Name withheld by request
DaveHatunen <hat...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <37huvm$4...@nyx.cs.du.edu>,
>Name withheld by request <anon...@nyx.cs.du.edu> wrote:
>>So tell me this. Why the hell is it considered a RACIST act to request
>>a white only provider, but a non RACIST act to request a black only
>>provider?
>>
>>Do you have the courage to answer this honestly?
>
>Your question is irrelevant to the present discussion, since no one
>requested a black only or white only provider.
>
>Do you have the courage to answer honestly why you felt it necessary to
>cast the question in this extreme form?
>
This is not an extreme response at all. If 'white' were substituted for
'afro-american' in the original post, it would have been considered
racist.
Robert Cordingley
kei...@ecst.csuchico.edu (Let's Don't Wait Til The Water Runs Dry) wrote:
>Being that I am African-american, I can say that is is far from being
>"R-A-C-I-A-L" to request information on services directed towards a specific
>group. What is wrong with wanting perhaps to support your own? No one
>complains when and if Asian-americans group together, or Croatian-Americans
>DO work together. But as soon as an African-American wants to do the same..
>it's Racist.....get a grip people...
Talk about getting a grip...what if I was looking for a provider that catered
to white american-born men? Then you'd be all up in arms calling the ACLU.
When I see somebody bringing race into a discussion where RACE HAS NO BEARING,
then I say that is racism!!! It's really quite simple, and you need to come
to the realization that you can't have it both ways. If you don't want other
people to be racist, then you yourself have to stop being racist. Get it?
Robert
Randolph Chung
i'd like to bring this to private email, but since you are sending messages
anonymously, I do not know if email works....
>When the color of the skin of the provider is required to be of a particular
>shade, with no consideration of any thing else ... that is racist behavior.
>Whites are condemed when they do it ... blacks are applauded when they do
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>it.
^^
Not true: afro-americans are not applauded when they are racist, nor are
whites. Just as many people disagree with the drastic and violent
actions of the KKK, many condemn the actions of violent black leaders.
I think it is not racist to PREFER one group of people over another. Come on,
each of us have our own preferences, and, as much as we want an equal world,
we are all biased in our own little ways. We should ACCEPT different points of
views, but that does not mean that we blindly follow what everyone else
says/thinks.
If this case, I agree that Siddiq's (sp?) request was not very ..
"politically-correct" but if he has preference for net providers who employ
African Americans, why isn't he given that right to choose?
Randolph
@..@
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* (----) *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Randolph Chung ( >__< ) Internet: rc...@cornell.edu
BioChem/CS student ^^ ~~ ^^ CLASSlink: 20:256/4
WWW page: http://tausq.resnet.cornell.edu/
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Mike Meyer
> In article <psydoc.37...@satelnet.org>, psy...@satelnet.org (Mark A.
> Arcuri) wrote:
>
> > Your points are well taken, Peter, but the poor guy never said he wanted a
> > service run BY anyone FOR anyone. He simply said he was looking for a service
> > either run by African-Americans (not necessarily FOR them) or by ANYONE
> who is
> > sensitive to that community's needs. That's it.
>
> Of the 40 odd responses this is one of the few that actually sounds like
> he is responding to my post. READ before you respond!! The reason I would
> like an African American provider or some who cares about the AA community is
> because the Internet in general, and Panix, Netcom and many of the others
> I've run across are full of folks (like those that responded with
> ignorance instead of information) who are White, Male and have NO CLUE
> about the interest concerns needs and goals of the African community.
> providers dont care what color the subscribers are, well thats exactly my
> point I am looking for a service provider that does. The Net is composed
> primarily of white Males, and what your response show more then anything
> is YOUR hostility to others encroaching on what you percieve to be YOUR
> teritory. GET a grip!!!Get a life!!! You folks need to wake up.
You know, he's absolutely right - you all need to wake up, and quit
playing into this jerks hands. This is also the single smoothest
attach on a set of newsgroups I've seen yet. It looks like a perfectly
legitimate request, but tramps very hard on the toys of liberals,
conservatives, and anyone who wishes the government would quit
screwing things up.
The original was pretty much guaranteed to start a flame war, and
pretty much did so. This does nothing but add more heat, without ever
addressing the questions in the response that "sounds like he is
responding to my post".
I read the first post. I decided it was some clueless loser who didn't
know what they were letting themselves in for. This response changed
my mind - it's someone very sharp who has decided to pollute the c.i.w
groups.
Bleah,
<mike
Jeff R Lindstrom
: I can see that it is pointless to even try and explain. Some of you are
: just clueless....
I have asked several times for examples of services or attitudes which
would be of benefit to the African-American community regarding Internet
access, over and above those offered to the rest of us.
To date, I have received in reply only generalizations and insults.
Perhaps I am clueless and there is something about the Internet which
is inherently hostile to the African-American community which requires a
sympathetic ISP as a buffer. I certainly don't see it.
Mr. Bello has consistently refused to provide any examples.
Will you? Or will I be saddled with another round of insults?
Jeff Lindstrom
Lamont Granquist
You're in comp.* groups and not in talk.politics.racism...
Take note of the redirected followups...
--
Lamont Granquist (lam...@u.washington.edu)
"Entertainment is the supra-ideology of *all* discourse on television"
Let's Don't Wait Til The Water Runs Dry
2. AfroNet
3. DRUM
4. NSBE
5. MelaNet
6. NAACP
7. Connections to Historically Black Colleges and Universities...
8. The list goes on....
Russell Lyons
racism and/or politics. This is ACCESS.WANTED not COLOR.PROVIDER or
ETHNIC.GROUP.PROVIDER.
Thank you.
DaveHatunen
That's fine. But in his original request that did not seem to be what
he wanted. The implication was that the net services themselves were
somehow involved.
Craig Nordin
> I have asked several times for examples of services or attitudes which
>would be of benefit to the African-American community regarding Internet
>access, over and above those offered to the rest of us.
Yes. well then.
White U.S. culture pervades the entire "essence" of the internet.
You wouldn't understand the alienation others of other cultures
feel when they encounter this. You may want to talk about how
we should all share the same cultural experiences, but that
runs dead against what the white culture was saying as little
as twenty years ago.
White U.S. culture still tolerates the KKK and other black-hating
racists. Not something you would do if you were trying to make
a fellah feel comfortable and at home.
White U.S. culture now feeds on the tv transmissions about blacks
and black crimes. A black person is far more likely to know
what it is like to walk into a white-run store and be followed
unabashedly by a clerk.
White males who are adventure seekers are the cops and lawyers
and surgeons who process an astoundingly large segment of blacks
and black males through a progression of events that is little
different from the plantations, levee-camps, road-gangs, and
prisions that used to be the lot of the black man.
Maybe an access provider that was supportive of black culture would
tolerate a "NIGGER GO HOME TO AFRICA" far less than one that was
ignorant of black culture.
ANY Group of people who feel separate or the need to separate should
be able to reach out to one another of their own kind and build their
close community. For almost all whites in the U.S. this is a natural
right that no one can take away. For a black person or an asian,
this is much less likely to happen.
Can You Say "To Each His Own"?
Good, I thought you could.
Just my own stenkin opinion.
--
See the Emerald on the Matrix? Baltimore, Maryland Access to the Internet
That's Charm.Net Hon! E-Mail: in...@charm.net Voice:(410) 558.3900
http://www.charm.net/ "guest" login, no password Data:(410) 558.3300
DaveHatunen
Craig Nordin <cno...@charm.net> wrote:
>prol...@shell.portal.com (Jeff R Lindstrom) writes:
>
>> I have asked several times for examples of services or attitudes which
>>would be of benefit to the African-American community regarding Internet
>>access, over and above those offered to the rest of us.
>
>Yes. well then.
>
>White U.S. culture pervades the entire "essence" of the internet.
>You wouldn't understand the alienation others of other cultures
>feel when they encounter this. You may want to talk about how
>we should all share the same cultural experiences, but that
>runs dead against what the white culture was saying as little
>as twenty years ago.
>
>White U.S. culture still tolerates the KKK and other black-hating
>racists. Not something you would do if you were trying to make
>a fellah feel comfortable and at home.
[REst of polemic, with which I largely agree, deleted]
Yes. But once he gets his ethnic provider, the Internet he is provided
with will be exactly the same as the one that might be supplied through
a KKK-sponsored BBS. So how does this relate to his original request?
He didn't ask for an Internet that was sympathetic to AA, he asked for
a provider.
His original post is turning out to be something of a Rohrschach
inkblot.
A. Joseph La Rocque
In order to be able to answer you question I would need some clairification as to exactly
what you are looking for in a WWW server. Since I find it hard to understand how
information can be ethnocentric (please excuse any spelling errors, my spell checker
doesn't work under WinVN) or why it should be.
Divisions in humanity, for reasons of topology, culture, language, etc., does not
appear to be a proven methodology for human survial. By enforcing or by
being overly observent of divisions we open the door for racial hate, misunderstandings,
jahads, wars, racial purification and other sundry human rationalizations for inhumanity to
man.
Perhaps, to stave off insults and misunderstandings from the Internet community, you should
be more general in you request for information.
In case you are wondering, no, I'm not a WASP. Yes, I have parents of specific cultural backgrounds, i.e;
American Indian and French Canadian. But I view my self as a simple Human and a member of the world
community.
Thanks for taking the time for reading this and I apologize for the possible inappropriate use of bandwidth.
Joe La Rocque /* I do not speak for the Promus Companies, Inc. */
jlar...@stargate.promus.com
http://stargate.promus.com
Dave O'Shea
: In article <37gojo$j...@illuminati.io.com>, yo...@io.com (Stuart Yoder) writes:
: Siddiq Theodile Bello (sid...@panix.com) wrote:
: > Hello,
: > I am looking for a service provider that is either African-American or a
: > provider who has some knowledge of and care for the African-American
: > community.
: I am looking for a service provider that is either German-North Carolinian-
: American or a
: provider who has some knowledge of and care for the German-North Carolinian-
: American community.
I am looking for a service provider that is either Irish-German-Scottish-
English-American, but as my wife is Russian-Portugese-Jewish-American, and
our son is Irish-Jewish-Scottish-Portugese-German-English-Russian-American,
it would be best if they met all of these criteria.
Thank You,
David Sheleileigh-Mackintosh-Wright-Epstein-Rodriguez-Gorbachev-Gefiltefish-
Johnson-Frankfurter-O'Shea
Also, all applicants must pass my political incorrectness test, which will
consist of clubbing a number of baby seals to death while giving Jane
Fonda a Bronx cheer. 20% of all contracted work must be given to rich
Republicans, and 10% of all profits must be donated to the Postal
Employees Gun and Drug Club.
: Gunther-Bubba Jones
--
Dave O'Shea dave_...@wiltel.com
Sr. Network Engineer 201.236.3730
WilTel Data Network Services Did I *say* I'm a WilTel spokesman?
Ed 215-573-3230
Poor baby
Kelly Fenner
|> 1. PeaceNet
|> 2. AfroNet
|> 3. DRUM
|> 4. NSBE
|> 5. MelaNet
|> 6. NAACP
As much as I am sure I will be adding fuel to the fire.....
The NAACP....Hmmm, I wonder, is there a similar group or association for the
advancement of white People? This is a serious question..
I don't think there is....
Other things..
>If you want to argue, do it in private email
I would be more than happy to take this to email.
Siddiq wrote:
>Some of the more ignorant responses went so far as to say that certian
>providers dont care what color the subscribers are, well thats exactly
>my point I am looking for a service provider that does.
Why? Why should the color of someone's skin matter? You want to
discriminate against 'whites' because they fail to have the pigmentation
in their biological make-up that 'blacks' do?
Ya know, it was so nice to come onto the Internet, and find that the only
way to tell the gender/color/religion/etc...was either by the persons name,
or having them tell you.
>I can see that it is pointless to even try and explain. Some of you are just
>clueless....
No, please, explain it to me, in email if you prefer...but I would like to
at least try and understand it.
Clueless....Maybe some of us are clueless, but Guess what?....We won't
understand it until someone comes up with a believable explanation.
Siddiq had to of known that his original post would cause some sort of
flamewar. If a straight person posted something about wanting an ISP that
cared and supported only straight people, then homosexuals would have
something to say about it. And vice versa.. If a male did the same thing,
only asking for one that cared and supported only males. You can bet your life
that feminist would have something to say about it. And so on and so on...
I haven't looked but I am sure there are newsgroups for african-americans
and if Siddiq wants an ISP that cares and supports the AA community, then
perhaps he should of posted there. Maybe there could of been someone that
reads that newsgroup that could of pointed him in the right direction.
I will say, however, that this is the correct place to post such a request,
but this is just the comp.infosystems.www.providers, not
comp.infosystems.www.(insert gender/race/religion/sexual orientation)-
providers....
The internet started out as non-discriminatory, why can't it stay that way?
Kelly
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ The difference between men and boys, is the size of their feet and +
+ the price of their toys. +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Kelly Fenner @ U.S. Army Research Laboratory (410)-278-6724 +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
phil reed
>
>Of all the 17 responses this is one of the few that actually sounds like
>he is responding to my post. READ before you respond!! The reason I would
>because the Internet in general and Panix, Netcom and many of the others
>I've run across are full of folks (like those that responded with
>ignorance instead of information) who are White, Male and have NO CLUE
Excuse me for asking, but exactly what are the "...interests, concerns,
needs and goals [of the] African community" AS FAR AS INTERNET
CONNECTIVITY IS CONCERNED? How are Netcom and Panix not serving these
needs?
Another
>thing is, why would I want to support Netcom or Panix (I'm sure employ
>very few African)
Evidence please. Along with your evidence, please provide the number of
applicants that were (1) AA, (2) qualified, and (3) not hired. Be sure
to correlate this with the number of open positions in those companies.
when I can give it to someone who will at least hire us,
>if they existed.
>
>Siddiq
....phil
fr...@bigdog.fred.net
>like an African American provider or some who cares about the AA community is
>because the Internet in general, and Panix, Netcom and many of the others
>I've run across are full of folks (like those that responded with
>ignorance instead of information) who are White, Male and have NO CLUE
What exactly are your Internet needs and goals that can not possibly
be met by Panix, Netcom, Delphi, PSI, NetUSA, or any of the other 50
local providers in New York? PLEASE BE VERY SPECIFIC. Please not respond
with your standard "get a grip, wake up, get a life". That is not a
mature response, and is quite frankly beneath us. Have you spoken to these
providers about your "special" needs? Did they refuse to accomodate you?
If your true goal in posting your original message is to get special
services, tell us what they are, and we will try to help you. On the
other hand, if your intention is to simply debate us endlessly and insult
us, there are other newsgroups better suited to this endless loop.
--
Frank DiGennaro 301-698-2386 voice, 301-698-1260 Fax
Systems Administrator, FredNet 301-698-5006 Dialup in Frederick
fr...@fred.net 301-293-0207 Dialup in Hagerstown/Myersville
- Imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein
Mike Stump
>tolerate a "NIGGER GO HOME TO AFRICA" far less than one that was
>ignorant of black culture.
I hate to stick my foot into this conversation, but...
The number one thing that I want from an IPS is one that will give me
a connection, and not censor what I say, and not censor what others
have to say. Would you like a provider that threatened to cut you off
for your beliefs? I wouldn't.
Imagine if I said, you can move in here, and live here in my
neighborhood, but only if you don't rub me the wrong way... Would you
want to, I hope not. Better I think to boycott that person, and not
move in, even though you know you would never rub them the wrong way.
Where censorship belongs is in the individual newsgroups, in email, in
web pages... And that should be imposed either by onesself, by a
moderator, or by law.
BILL SMARGIASSI
>
>The NAACP....Hmmm, I wonder, is there a similar group or association for the
>advancement of white People? This is a serious question..
>I don't think there is....
Yes, you are. I seriously doubt there is any need for an organization
dedicated to the advancement of the race who holds most of the power.
bill
corl...@clark.net
Dave O'Shea <dave_...@wiltel.com> wrote:
>Christopher M Grawburg (cmgr...@eos.ncsu.edu) wrote:
>I am looking for a service provider that is either Irish-German-Scottish-
>English-American, but as my wife is Russian-Portugese-Jewish-American, and
>our son is Irish-Jewish-Scottish-Portugese-German-English-Russian-American,
>it would be best if they met all of these criteria.
You know, I am really getting sick and tired of this. Where is the Italian
representation here? Everybody forgets the Italians.
Everybody is nice to us when they need to have somebody's legs broken or
they need a 'favor' from my cousins Vinny or Cosmo, but when it comes to
meeting our Internet needs, nobody wants to help. Talk about predudice!
Wake up! get a grip! Get a Life!
Lisa B.
There is nothing a white person can say, however innoculous s/he thinks
it may be, that cannot be interpreted as racist by a black person.
AND
There is nothing a black person can say, however innoculous s/he thinks
it may be, that cannot be interpreted as racist by a white person.
AND
resentment and one-upmanship will rule the day until we all turn to
dust anyway
AND
those who follow will not be able to fathom what kept us at each
other's throats for so long, with such futility...
Maybe it would be better on the Internet if we really *were* all
dogs.
Steven M. Doyle
>In article <psydoc.37...@satelnet.org>, psy...@satelnet.org (Mark A.
>Arcuri) wrote:
>Of all the 17 responses this is one of the few that actually sounds like
>he is responding to my post. READ before you respond!! The reason I would
>like an African American or some who cares about the AA community is
>because the Internet in general and Panix, Netcom and many of the others
>I've run across are full of folks (like those that responded with
>ignorance instead of information) who are White, Male and have NO CLUE
>about the interest concerns needs and goals African community. Another
>thing is, why would I want to support Netcom or Panix (I'm sure employ
>very few African) when I can give it to someone who will at least hire us,
>if they existed.
>Siddiq
For a while I was content to sit around and read the flames, but this
is flat out racism. OF COURSE netcom and others have a majority of
white customers -- that is, quite simply the current majority interest
group in Netcom's area. But you go a little far about implying:
that a> NETcom is not an equal opportunity employer,
b> Netcom has no clue about the needs of the AA community
c> Netcom's customers are clueless because they are White males.
Need I say more? That post was simply uncalled for, and I'm sure you'll
get flamed by someone else (if you haven't already)
-Steve
Yes, I am white
and yes, I have many African American friends.
None of them seems to be that closed minded.
--
| Steven Doyle, AKA World Creator | #include <std_disclaimer> |
| Sysop, NETDimension (818)592-6279 | For information on Artificial Worlds |
| wcre...@kaiwan.com | send email to wcre...@kaiwan.com for |
| wcre...@axposf.pa.dec.com | an information package. |
Steven M. Doyle
>providers dont care what color the subscribers are, well thats exactly my
>primarily of white Males, and what your response show more then anything
>is YOUR hostility to others encroaching on what you percieve to be YOUR
>teritory. GET a grip!!!Get a life!!! You folks need to wake up.
Methinks you are the ignorant one in this case. You have effectivley
just stated that because we don't care what race anyone is on the net, we are
afraid of themn "encroaching on what we percieve to be OUR territory". I
hardly think so. I think you need to take your own advice... get a grip.
Jeff Lindstrom
>
>> I have asked several times for examples of services or attitudes which
>>would be of benefit to the African-American community regarding Internet
>>access, over and above those offered to the rest of us.
>
>Yes. well then.
>
>White U.S. culture pervades the entire "essence" of the internet.
>You wouldn't understand the alienation others of other cultures
>feel when they encounter this. You may want to talk about how
>we should all share the same cultural experiences, but that
>runs dead against what the white culture was saying as little
>as twenty years ago.
My mother, father, and brother (all white) feel alienated from the
Internet because *I* amd the *only* Technofreak in my whole extended
family. Their alienation is neither racial nor cultural.
>White U.S. culture still tolerates the KKK and other black-hating
>racists. Not something you would do if you were trying to make
>a fellah feel comfortable and at home.
Black culture tolerates the petty thugs who prey on their own people.
Perhaps you read where the thug who beat Civil Rights pioneer Rosa Parks
was a known mugger, but the people in that neighborhood didn't turn him
into the police until he beat up on someone important.
>White U.S. culture now feeds on the tv transmissions about blacks
>and black crimes. A black person is far more likely to know
>what it is like to walk into a white-run store and be followed
>unabashedly by a clerk.
A black person is more likely to be assaulted or victimized by another
black than by a white. While I have not been followed by clerks in
minority run stores, I have been ignored while others were served ahead
of me.
>White males who are adventure seekers are the cops and lawyers
>and surgeons who process an astoundingly large segment of blacks
>and black males through a progression of events that is little
>different from the plantations, levee-camps, road-gangs, and
>prisions that used to be the lot of the black man.
Most black people are not criminals and have little direct contact with
cops and lawyers. I assume your reference to surgeons is the Emergency
Room treatment gang bangers get after they shoot each other. That is not
white racism.
>Maybe an access provider that was supportive of black culture would
>tolerate a "NIGGER GO HOME TO AFRICA" far less than one that was
>ignorant of black culture.
My ISP provides nothing other than access to the Internet and technical
support to maintain that access. How can an ISP support the
African-American community? Your paragraph indicates it should have an
enormous amount of processor time set aside to analyze Usenet traffic for
racially derogatory content and filter it out. That is ridiculous.
>ANY Group of people who feel separate or the need to separate should
>be able to reach out to one another of their own kind and build their
>close community. For almost all whites in the U.S. this is a natural
>right that no one can take away. For a black person or an asian,
>this is much less likely to happen.
I can see how this would happen on the Internet (by creating a new
Usenet group), but how could an ISP do this? An organization such as
CompuServe, America Online, or Portal could do it, simply by having an
orientation towards a particular group of people, but ISPs do not do this.
>Can You Say "To Each His Own"?
It sounds more like "Separate But Equal".
--
Regards,
Jeff Lindstrom jeff...@netcom.com
Jeff Lindstrom
A. Joseph La Rocque <jlar...@stargate.promus.com> wrote:
>>Let's Don't Wait Til The Water Runs Dry (kei...@ecst.csuchico.edu) wrote:
>>: I can see that it is pointless to even try and explain. Some of you are
>>: just clueless....
>>
>> I have asked several times for examples of services or attitudes which
>>would be of benefit to the African-American community regarding Internet
>>access, over and above those offered to the rest of us.
>First off, this followup article is not written to insult you or any
>African-Americans.
I am not African-American. I posted the original question to Mr. Bello
asking just what services he wanted an ISP to perform to be more "pumped"
on the African-American community.
The rest of your post's content is similar to the positions I have
raised in this thread.
Jeff Lindstrom
Lisa B. <li...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Can we wrap up this thread and accept the inevitable?
>
>There is nothing a white person can say, however innoculous s/he thinks
>it may be, that cannot be interpreted as racist by a black person.
>AND
>There is nothing a black person can say, however innoculous s/he thinks
>it may be, that cannot be interpreted as racist by a white person.
You don't know the black people I know, then. One is very confused as
to just what it is Mr. Bello wants (after I explained to her the function
and restrictions of an ISP).
>AND
>resentment and one-upmanship will rule the day until we all turn to
>dust anyway
>AND
>those who follow will not be able to fathom what kept us at each
>other's throats for so long, with such futility...
Interesting. You say it will be this way forever, but that those who
follow us will not understand.
Daniel P Tasman
sid...@panix.com (Siddiq Theodile Bello) writes:
> Hello,
>
> I am looking for a service provider that is either African-American or a
> provider who has some knowledge of and care for the African-American
> community.
> I have some clients that I would like to provide Internet access but
> "regular" providers like panix and netcom are not exactly pumped on our
> communities and so were not pumped on them (I say this as a panix user).
> The service provider must have the following available; T1 backbone,
> SLIP/PPP accounts, automatic return mailers, option sub domains, local
> dail up in the NY and/or NJ. If you fit the bill or know someone who does
> send me mail.
I am looking for a service provider that is either White-American or a
provider who has some knowledge of and care for the White-American
community.
I have some clients that I would like to provide Internet access but
"regular" providers like panix and netcom are not exactly psyched our
communities and so were not psyched on them (I say this as a panix user).
The service provider must have the following available; T1 backbone,
SLIP/PPP accounts, automatic return mailers, option sub domains, local
dail up in the Buffalo area. If you fit the bill or know someone who does
send me mail.
Obviously, my modification of Siddiq's message above sounds _really_ racist, and
if I posted this in all seriousness, before Siddiq posted his message, I'd be
flamed to a crisp.
"But blacks aren't racist, because they don't ahve te power." Look up racism in
the dictionary; you'll find out that it is an equal opportunity word.
--
Dan Tasman SUNY at Buffalo School of Architecture and Planning
E-mail - tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu & v132...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
WWW Home Page - http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~tasman/
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "I think that I shall never see a billboard lovely as a tree. |
| indeed, unless the billboards fall, I'll never see a tree at all." |
| Odgen Nash, Song of the Open Road |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Daniel P Tasman
Siddiq <siddiq-1210...@siddiq.dialup.access.net> wrote -
|> Of all the 17 responses this is one of the few that actually sounds like
|> he is responding to my post. READ before you respond!! The reason I would
|> like an African American or some who cares about the AA community is
|> because the Internet in general and Panix, Netcom and many of the others
|> I've run across are full of folks (like those that responded with
|> ignorance instead of information) who are White, Male and have NO CLUE
|> about the interest concerns needs and goals African community. Another
|> thing is, why would I want to support Netcom or Panix (I'm sure employ
|> very few African) when I can give it to someone who will at least hire us,
|> if they existed.
Seriously, how would the Internet needs of the African-American community be any
different than that of any other ethnic group? If these other companies won't
provide dialups from phone exchanges that are located in predominantly minortiy
neighborhoods, I can see your point.
Not enough blacks working in the other companies? Is the ratio of blacks with
computer experience the same as for any other ethnic group? If not, are you
suggesting that an affirmative action or quota system be used by these other
companies to hire more (possibly unqualified) minorities?
Okay, so I don't have a clue about the special needs of minority Internet users.
Sorry ... the only country in Africa that's on the Internet is "racist" South
Africa, traditionally black colleges and universities tend to have fewer links
than other institutions of higher learning, and the city governments of East St.
Louis and Detriot don't have Web pages. This isn't the fault of evil capitalist
white men like myself; Gabon, Grambling and Gary are equally entitled to hook up
to the Internet as any other group. Just _what_ are the special needs of
minority Internet users; lower rates to make up for years of perceived oppression,
or just plain simple respect that everyone should ger regardless of their race?
Dan
Steven M. Doyle
>Who has said or mentioned ANYTHING about being discriminated against on the net.
>I dont think I have....
> -k
For one prime example, read a fewposts back, the one that says Netcom probably
wouldn't hire Affrican Americans. That sounds racist- and unfounded - to me.
Kevin Mayall
Name withheld by request <anon...@nyx.cs.du.edu> wrote:
>This is not an extreme response at all. If 'white' were substituted for
>'afro-american' in the original post, it would have been considered
>racist.
(I promised myself I wouldn't get into this, but this is too much.)
HELLO??? What would the point of someone looking for a white or
Euro-American service provider be???? American society is geared
towards white Americans. The reason someone is looking to support a
black enterprise or looking for a service provider who provides for a
black community, is because there is a NEED - black enterprises are
disproportionately represented, and black communities are
disproportionately in need of services.
NEED is the key factor why this substitution of 'white' for
'Afro-American' doesn't work.
If you want to argue that white Americans are a dying breed, go join
your local Klan.
Cool............
Kev
Rebelady
>In article <37kd7v$n...@nyx.cs.du.edu>,
>HELLO??? What would the point of someone looking for a white or
>Euro-American service provider be???? American society is geared
>towards white Americans. The reason someone is looking to support a
>black enterprise or looking for a service provider who provides for a
>black community, is because there is a NEED - black enterprises are
>disproportionately represented, and black communities are
>disproportionately in need of services.
>NEED is the key factor why this substitution of 'white' for
>'Afro-American' doesn't work.
>If you want to argue that white Americans are a dying breed, go join
>your local Klan.
>Cool............
> Kev
I too promised I wasn't going to get into this, but enough is enough!
I've had more than enough of this "African American" BS. Jesus! What the hell
is this shit? A black man or woman is just a *person*.
I don't go around calling myself a Spanish-Russian-Polish American! I don't
give a shit if someone is black, white, , oriental, gay or whatever. You want
to take pride in black heritage and culture? Fine, wonderful! But there is no
reason to *purposely* separate yourselves from the "white male majority" or
whatever you want to call it. Take pride in your culture, support black owned
businesses...that's all great. But implying that the net is prejudiced and
certain providers cannot give the black community what they need? That's just
garbage. If there is a need or a market for something on
internet *by anyone regardless of race or backround* and there are enough
people wanting it to support it than *it will be there*.
Jeez! I can't believe I let myself get into this!
I'm sorry if I've offended anyone by sounding like I'm against blacks (or
anyone else), that was not my intention, and it's certainly not how I feel.
Jessica Lindsay
Philip Suarez, M.D.
>
> I am looking for a service provider that is either African-American or a
> provider who has some knowledge of and care for the African-American
> community.
Great idea!
I am looking for a service provider that is Euro-American or who has
knowledge of and care of those that have put themselves through school
to learn a marketable profession that helps people. I want a provider
that understands the community of those who pay taxes, and lots of them,
so that many thousands of others can sit around drawing government
giveaway cash.
I would particularly be interested in a service provider that would
refuse to provide service to someone who is on the government dole until they
prove that they can hold down a job and start paying taxes also.
Gads... This multiculturalism crap is destroying the very fabric of
our nation. This is absolutely absurd, racist, hateful, and made up of
the kind of thought that is going to thrust this country into another
bloody civil war before it is all over...
Those of you that are continuing to harbor color-coded thoughts should
be utterly ashamed of yourselves... I am shaken that I see this kind of
utter hateful nonsense on such a newsgroup. This is unreal.
Philip Suarez, M.D.
phi...@icsi.net
Daniel P Tasman
In article <CxoAD...@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>, kma...@cousteau.uwaterloo.ca.uwaterloo.ca (Kevin Mayall) writes:
>
> HELLO??? What would the point of someone looking for a white or
> Euro-American service provider be???? American society is geared
> towards white Americans. The reason someone is looking to support a
WRONG! "American society" is geared towards AMERICANS, which happens to include
people of European, African, Asian, North and South American origin. The
dominant culture is based on a loose melding of several European cultures, with
a LARGE influence by African-Americans, the amount of which is too much to
list in a simple short post.
If I moved to Nigeria, Kenya, Chad or Zimbabwe, I would be expected to respect
and adapt to the dominant culture in the area. Anything less would label me as
an "Ugly American." Although in the United States individuality is valued
highly, it does not mean I have to approve of your way of life. Just as an
employer is justified in not giving offering a job to a person who openly belongs
to a punk subculture, showing up for an interview in tattered clothes, various
body piercings and tattoos in quite visible places, most people in the dominant
culture will be slow to accept someone that is "too black," for instance someone
wearing very baggy clothes, a hooded jacket during the summertime, walking down
the street drinking a 40-dog, having ten crowns on their car dashboard, and
so on. The urban black street culture is too far removed from the American
mainstream culture, just as the punk culture is, and is therefore not accepted by
a majority of the dominant cultural group.
I have observed that African-Americans that are most successful are those that
have adapted to the dominant culture, while still retaining their heritage and
cultural pride, just as other European-American and Asian-American ethnic groups.
Call them "Uncle Toms", but they made it. The middle class suburban
neighborhood that I live in is quite integrated, with blacks, whites, Asians,
Asian Indians, and a whole assortment of other ethnic groups. _Nobody_ cares
that their neighbors are black; they are residents of a prosperous community,
and contribute to the qualty of life and diversity that we are proud of. They
have broken through the color barrier and are now enjoing the benefits of it.
Likewise, I would like to know what is _black_ or what is _white_ about the
Internet. The dominant Internet culture does consist of white males, however,
the dominant Internet culture also consists of computer science specialists
(remember, the Internet is a COMPUTER network), the majority of which are white
males. To solve the problem of the lack of a minority influence on the 'net,
first there has to be MORE MINORITIES ON THE NET! That can be done in many ways;
encouraging blacks to take up technical fields; getting black student clubs to
put up World Wide Wed pages; maybe creating a co-op Internet provider service for
a dominantly black neighborhood. What about a rap song about the Internet? If
people are going to buy $600 8-Ball jackets because MC Donald S wears one in his
latest video, surely someone could spend that amount on a computer instead.
Nonetheless, the Net does ot discriminate. There are ignorant people out there
that might post racist messages (I wouldn't be surprised if this message was
considered to be racist!), or assume everyone that they are talking to is the
same sex, race and nationality that they are. For the most part, most people on
the Internet could give two shits about the color of your skin; it isn't likely
that we're going to see it anytime soon, and many of us just don't care. That's
why there are so many angry posts; color just doesn't matter on the 'net, yet
some keep on bringing it up as an issue. We should only hope that the trest of
society is as color blind as the Internet is.
Martin H. Booda
|> prol...@shell.portal.com (Jeff R Lindstrom) writes:
|>
|> > I have asked several times for examples of services or attitudes which
|> >would be of benefit to the African-American community regarding Internet
|> >access, over and above those offered to the rest of us.
|>
|> Yes. well then.
|>
|> White U.S. culture pervades the entire "essence" of the internet.
|> You wouldn't understand the alienation others of other cultures
|> feel when they encounter this. You may want to talk about how
|> we should all share the same cultural experiences, but that
|> runs dead against what the white culture was saying as little
|> as twenty years ago.
|>
manifest itself on the Internet (caps, please)? The "essence" of the
Internet is packets. I challenge anyone to come up with a more sensible
definition. How do you "whiten" electrons? Can you honestly distinguish
any "white" article from a "black" article? I challenge you to examine
the most recent articles in soc.culture.african.american if you haven't
already and indicate which were written by a black author, as opposed to a
white one. Provide proof.
|> White U.S. culture still tolerates the KKK and other black-hating
|> racists. Not something you would do if you were trying to make
|> a fellah feel comfortable and at home.
|>
Interesting generalization. Here in Mississippi, the KKK staged a little
get-together on the coast a while back. In the audience were blacks and
whites. The whites predominated, but this was little comfort to the
Krazy Killer Klowns, as the atmosphere was rather hostile, judging from
preponderence of epithets and occasional projectiles hurled in their
direction from both races. Guess we're just not cultured down heah.
|> White U.S. culture now feeds on the tv transmissions about blacks
|> and black crimes. A black person is far more likely to know
|> what it is like to walk into a white-run store and be followed
|> unabashedly by a clerk.
|>
(Black or white clerk?) No...I'm _not_ going to say anything about
whites walking through black neighborhoods...
|> White males who are adventure seekers are the cops and lawyers
|> and surgeons who process an astoundingly large segment of blacks
|> and black males through a progression of events that is little
|> different from the plantations, levee-camps, road-gangs, and
|> prisions that used to be the lot of the black man.
|>
Yeah. You never hear about the "processing" of whites into prisions (?) by
black cops and lawyers (and surgeons? Ah well, anything is possible with
socialized medicine) And you never see whites in road-gangs. Unless, of
course, you drive without a blindfold on. (Of course folks down here
would never dream of doing that...)
|> Maybe an access provider that was supportive of black culture would
|> tolerate a "NIGGER GO HOME TO AFRICA" far less than one that was
|> ignorant of black culture.
|>
Hard to tell. It's difficult to measure the time between the reaction to
such ridiculously blatant flamebait and the termination of the sender's
account, especially when it's usually a matter of nanoseconds. Unless you
have specific proof to the contrary.
On the other hand, how would "an access provider that was cowed^H^H^H^H^H
supportive of black culture" react to a reasoned argument against, say,
racial quotas and affirmative action, especially if it got leaned on by
the NAACP?
|> ANY Group of people who feel separate or the need to separate should
|> be able to reach out to one another of their own kind and build their
|> close community. For almost all whites in the U.S. this is a natural
|> right that no one can take away. For a black person or an asian,
|> this is much less likely to happen.
|>
Hm. Separate and form a community? Sounds like a contradiction in terms, but
we used to call it segregation. I used to hang around Baltimore a lot. It's
a lot like any other city. In town, black, white, red or purple, you can
just about forget about separation from the community. In the suburbs, like
Towson, Columbia, Ellicot City, there is a little thing called the Fair
Housing Act. The very mention of this act is enough to turn grown real estate
agents into quiverring mounds of jello. You'll have them on their knees,
offering you their pens in no time.
|> Can You Say "To Each His Own"?
|>
Yep. Can you say, "Pot, Kettle, ..."?
|> Good, I thought you could.
|>
Hey, I went to public school too.
|> Just my own stenkin opinion.
|>
Like assholes, everybody's got one.
--
USENET:Artifact Creature, Casting Cost 1B. Summon Net. 10/2, Rampage: 3. Swamp-
walk,Trample,Regeneration,Lure,First Strike.Gains 2 pts of power for each point
of black mana. Negates banding and protection of all creatures in play. Text:
"Legend has it that the Net used to be nastier,but how could that be?"Martin H.
Booda(bo...@navo.navy.mil)|Ocean Springs,MS bans lasers! Incoherent film at 11.
sch...@awa.com
deeply concerned (for moral and enlightened-commercial reasons)
to increasing access to the world wide web for all of those who
are under-represented on the web today, and all those who can
increase the cultural richness of the web. We do have plans in
the works which could promote free access to the internet and the
web, and we have made a point of making Downtown Anywhere
hospitable to slow-modem users (i.e., users of lynx via shell-
accounts).
We are always looking for ambitious, creative, and resourceful
collaborators, and have tried to create an environment for
inexpensive entrepreneurial experimentation.
So please check us out and get in touch.
(I'll be at the WWW developers meeting in Chicago next week, but
checking Email and looking to meet with people.)
Here is the <a href="http://www.awa.com/"> URL </a> for Downtown
Anywhere.
Here is the <a href="http://www.awa.com/w2/"> URL </a> Webster's weekly.
=============================================================================
Jonathan Schull, Ph.D., President, SoftLock Services Inc. Sch...@SoftLock.com
963 East Ave. #1, Rochester, NY 14607-2251 716-242-0348 (voice/fax)
City Planner, Downtown Anywhere on the World Wide Web (http://www.awa.com/)
=============================================================================
> Reply to: Jeff R Lindstrom
>
> RE: AFRICAN-AMERICAN PROVIDERS OR PROVIDERS THAT CARE!!!
Bruce Copeland
|> prol...@shell.portal.com (Jeff R Lindstrom) writes:
(Much prolific drivel deleted)
|>
|> White U.S. culture pervades the entire "essence" of the internet.
|>
The internet is a simply a set of protocols for transmitting data. The U.S. military developed the protocols and funded its initial implementation. The groups connected were, by and large, universities and research institutions. The people working at these locations were primarily white males since they were the ones who worked there. They were not racist, they were simply there. Now the recent products (such as the web) of these groups of technically literate have opened up this powerful new communica
tions to any group that can manage to operate a PC and pay for an internet provider. I'd say they did a great job and, if anything, the ignorant masses owe a great debt to the "White U.S. culture." Now if these groups feel that they need to provide "information" about themselves and their unique culture they need to get off their butts and do it, using the tools that the "White U.S. culture" has so graciously provided FOR FREE.
If some group wants to develop their own network protocol (since TCP/IP is clearly racist since it was developed by whites) or even their own separate telephony network (since the telephone was developed by a white and thus clearly racist) they have every right in the world.
--
Bruce Copeland
misconfigured AFTER I posted. I suppose I'm clueless too.
In article <cnordin....@news.charm.net>, cno...@charm.net (Craig Nordin) writes:
|> prol...@shell.portal.com (Jeff R Lindstrom) writes:
(Much prolific drivel deleted)
|>
|> White U.S. culture pervades the entire "essence" of the internet.
|>
The internet is a simply a set of protocols for transmitting data.
The U.S. military (ARPA) developed the protocols and funded its initial
implementation. The groups connected were, by and large, universities
and research institutions. The people working at these locations were
primarily white males since they were the ones who worked there. It was
not a racist decision, they were simply the ones who were capable of
designing and/or using a fairly technical protocol.
Now the recent products (such as the web) of these groups of technically
literate have opened up this powerful new communication environment to any
DaveHatunen
Siddiq Theodile Bello <sid...@panix.com> wrote:
[...]
>Of all the 17 responses this is one of the few that actually sounds like
>he is responding to my post. READ before you respond!! The reason I would
>like an African American or some who cares about the AA community is
>because the Internet in general and Panix, Netcom and many of the others
>I've run across are full of folks (like those that responded with
>ignorance instead of information) who are White, Male and have NO CLUE
>about the interest concerns needs and goals African community. Another
>thing is, why would I want to support Netcom or Panix (I'm sure employ
>very few African) when I can give it to someone who will at least hire us,
>if they existed.
The logic here escapes me. As near as I can tell, you want an Internet
provider that is AA-oriented to provide you with a link to the
Internet, which you find unacceptably white...
As to Panix and Netcom, they are pretty much like the telephone
company, just conduits or connections for data from other places to
you. You are not under any obligation to interact with anyone else at
Netcom (except to pay your bill), so what difference does that make?
But you are still talking in glittering generalities; could you please
be more specific?
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@netcom.com) **********
* Daly City California: *
* where San Francisco meets The Peninsula *
* and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea *
*******************************************************
Andrew McNab
(Bruce Copeland of the U.S. Naval Surface Warfare Center) writes about people
at research institutions who developed the Internet and now WWW...
>I'd say they did a great job and, if anything, the ignorant masses owe a
>great debt to the "White U.S. culture." Now if these groups feel that they
>need to provide "information" about themselves and their unique culture they
>need to get off their butts and do it, using the tools that the "White U.S.
>culture" has so graciously provided FOR FREE.
I take it Bruce Copeland does not mean "White U.S. culture" literally -
since WWW was invented and the protocols, library, HTML etc created by CERN
in Geneva. Interestingly, CERN is not permitted to do research contracts for
the military (even "Naval Warfare") - underlined by being in neutral
Switzerland.
I think CERN's structure is very relevant to the general points of this
thread. Scientists from 40 countries come here to do research - not just
from Western and now Eastern Europe, but also from India, China and the
U.S.
(I'm going to get rather idealistic now.) After all the wars that have
happened here, Europe made conscious efforts after the last war to stop
the cycle. France and Germany which had fought so bitterly against each
other led many of these attempts. CERN and the European Union are examples.
The former Yugoslavia where differences were papered over rather than
reconciled shows what a mess the rest of Europe could have been in again
by now.
And now certain people in the U.S. (I'm thinking of Mr Bello here) want
to separate your country into lots of little racially based "nations".
That risks throwing away two hundred years of peace in North America,
except for one war fought to save men from slavery.
And worst of all, he wants to use the Internet to do it, the greatest
invention for bringing *people* together since the printing press.
Don't get me wrong, Mr Bello has every Right and maybe even the Duty
to establish representation on the Net for any community which he
can represent. But to do it in the manner of his second posting, by
drawing crude generalisations of white people's attitudes is wrong.
If I've misunderstood Mr Bello's true beliefs and intentions then I
apologise now: but that's the way the posts sounded when I read them.
I thought I'd never get involved in any discussion where I'd have to
say this explicitly: these are not necessarily the opinions of CERN etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Andrew McNab (I am not speaking as a representative of either institution) |
| |
| Email: A.M...@qmw.ac.uk | Email: Andrew...@cern.ch |
| | |
| High Energy Physics Group | CERN |
| Queen Mary and Westfield College | European Laboratory for Particle Physics |
| University of London | Geneva |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Copeland
|> In article <1994Oct15.1...@relay.nswc.navy.mil>, b...@dias.nswc.navy.mil
|> (Bruce Copeland of the U.S. Naval Surface Warfare Center) writes about people
|> at research institutions who developed the Internet and now WWW...
|>
|> >I'd say they did a great job and, if anything, the ignorant masses owe a
|> >great debt to the "White U.S. culture." Now if these groups feel that they
|> >need to provide "information" about themselves and their unique culture they
|> >need to get off their butts and do it, using the tools that the "White U.S.
|> >culture" has so graciously provided FOR FREE.
|>
|> I take it Bruce Copeland does not mean "White U.S. culture" literally -
You are correct. I was using the term from the post I was responding to.
|> And now certain people in the U.S. (I'm thinking of Mr Bello here) want
|> to separate your country into lots of little racially based "nations".
|> That risks throwing away two hundred years of peace in North America,
|> except for one war fought to save men from slavery.
|>
|> And worst of all, he wants to use the Internet to do it, the greatest
|> invention for bringing *people* together since the printing press.
I agree. It really is sad, isn't it. The Internet is a medium that strips
away prejudice, because you can only judge by what a person contributes, not
what they look like. It will enable new kinds of government that are far
more responsive to the needs of ALL the people. The world could and should
work together for the future of humankind, but it's going to take a lot of
work and cooperation on everyone's part.
(Remainder of excellent post deleted.)
|> I thought I'd never get involved in any discussion where I'd have to
|> say this explicitly: these are not necessarily the opinions of CERN etc.
Similiarly for me. These opinions expressed here are not necessarily the
opinions of the Naval Surface Warfare Center, the U.S. Navy or the U.S.
Government.
--
______________________________________________________________________
* *
* Bruce Copeland, L22T. TL-8 _ *
* Naval Surfare Warfare Center ____ __ __o __ ,__o *
* Dahlgren, Virginia ___ -\<, __ _-\_<, *
* b...@dias.nswc.navy.mil <unix> ______O/_O________(*)/'(*)______ *
* bco...@relay.nswc.navy.mil <pc> *
* PH: 703/663-8048 *
* FAX: 703/663-7760 She's catching up! *
*______________________________________________________________________*
Philip Suarez, M.D.
> |> I thought I'd never get involved in any discussion where I'd have to
> |> say this explicitly: these are not necessarily the opinions of CERN etc.
>
> Similiarly for me. These opinions expressed here are not necessarily the
> opinions of the Naval Surface Warfare Center, the U.S. Navy or the U.S.
> Government.
Yea, but the should be... (hopefully they are)
----------------------------------------------------------
Philip Suarez, M.D. phi...@icsi.net
President - Internet Connect Services, Inc.
ICS - Home of the $4.95 shell and $9.95 SLIP accounts -
e-mail: "of...@icsi.net"
----------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Lindstrom
Let's Don't Wait Til The Water Runs Dry <kei...@ecst.csuchico.edu> wrote:
>There are indeed resources on the net, that would service the needs of the
>presence of African-americans on the net. Links to organizations that are
>for the most part African-American would be better serviced, and simply
>more accessible by our community, if provided by a provider that is geared
>towards the AA community, whereas another commercial provider may not have
>that as accessible.
These resources are available to anyone who connects to the Internet
through a full-service provider (such as Netcom or Panix).
You are complaining that ISPs are not, as part of their service,
providing informational pamplets telling people where to go for their
information (in your case, racially segregated discussion groups).
My brother's band just got a record contract through a company which
will distribute its music, in part, through the Internet. Netcom did
*nothing* to point out where I could find Web sites supporting Music, but
then again THAT'S NOT THEIR JOB!
Mr. Bello (and you) could have avoided *most* of this entire thread if
he had just known what he wanted and was able to articulate it. Sounds to
me like the two of you have a business opportunity. Just research and
write a book titled "Where black people can go on the Internet when they
want to complain about, or just don't want to deal with, white people".
Of course, you would probably copy Ebony magazine's practice of turning
the adjectives `black' and `white' into proper nouns (`Black' and
`White').