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Blast Adobe, and Thank You Microsoft (Off-topic and long)
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Philip Herlihy
Mar 27, 2013, 4:44:33 PM3/27/13
to
<rant>
I have the Adobe "Web Premium" Creative Suite 4. The thing I use most
is Dreamweaver - a pretty competent web development tool, with
facilities like templates, automatic link adjustment and a decent CSS
analyser (even if the embedded browser is rubbish) which really make a
difference in a large site of many pages.
I thought it was time to upgrade to CS6, hoping for a better embedded
browser (apparently now using WebKit) and better support for CSS3 and
HTML5. The discounted upgrade offers ended on New Years' Eve, but as
"Web Premium" had been replaced with "Web Superfluous" (or whatever)
including stuff I didn't want at twice the price, I bought only the
Dreamweaver upgrade, just in time.
Been too busy to install it (or to get my new PC up and running) so it's
just sat there, until last night, when I noticed a small panel saying,
effectively, you can't upgrade using this license unless you are
upgrading a standalone copy of Dreamweaver - and not a Suite.
Sat for 40m on hold (having finally unearthed the number for the UK
office) and eventually reached a timid reader-of-onscreen-scripts who
simply couldn't understand what I was asking her. Our accents were so
thickly different that everything had to be repeated three times on each
side. Then she tried to transfer me and cut me off... 60 minutes gone.
Then I tried the "Chat" line. More corporate BS, and an attempt to sell
me the subscription version. Personally, I'll never, ever buy software
that disappears if I stop paying fo it. Got nowhere - had to break the
"conversation" after 20m of repeating myself as politely as I could as I
had to get to a meeting.
On my return, fuming, I started wondering if I could do without DW. A
bit more research revealed reviews saying CS6 is a bit half-baked, and
that CSS3 and HTML5 support is thin.
What other options are there with support for large sites (which I
really value?). (Alternativeto.net is a good site for this, by the
way.) Lots of small, fairly obscure packages, and people recommending
Notepad (no global search and replace, for one thing) - nothing that
seems to have comparable standing in the market (a confidence issue - at
my age learning new software is a pain, and an investment I make only
after careful review). Expression Web (version 4 is the latest) came up
a few times. I tinkered with an early version once, and liked it, and
it's a mile away from the grotesque FrontPage, which mangled my brains
for years with eccentric ways of doing things. Could I face buying a
copy of Expression Web?
No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now! Even at the former price
(£125 springs to mind) I thought it was good value compared with DW, and
now it's a steal. No it's not, it's free. It's got good CSS 2.1
support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/expression/
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=36179
So, I figure I can do without Dreamweaver CS6, and I'll try doing new
sites in Expression Web - which will fit better with my intention of
boning up on ASP.net as well.
</rant>
--
Phil, London
I have the Adobe "Web Premium" Creative Suite 4. The thing I use most
is Dreamweaver - a pretty competent web development tool, with
facilities like templates, automatic link adjustment and a decent CSS
analyser (even if the embedded browser is rubbish) which really make a
difference in a large site of many pages.
I thought it was time to upgrade to CS6, hoping for a better embedded
browser (apparently now using WebKit) and better support for CSS3 and
HTML5. The discounted upgrade offers ended on New Years' Eve, but as
"Web Premium" had been replaced with "Web Superfluous" (or whatever)
including stuff I didn't want at twice the price, I bought only the
Dreamweaver upgrade, just in time.
Been too busy to install it (or to get my new PC up and running) so it's
just sat there, until last night, when I noticed a small panel saying,
effectively, you can't upgrade using this license unless you are
upgrading a standalone copy of Dreamweaver - and not a Suite.
Sat for 40m on hold (having finally unearthed the number for the UK
office) and eventually reached a timid reader-of-onscreen-scripts who
simply couldn't understand what I was asking her. Our accents were so
thickly different that everything had to be repeated three times on each
side. Then she tried to transfer me and cut me off... 60 minutes gone.
Then I tried the "Chat" line. More corporate BS, and an attempt to sell
me the subscription version. Personally, I'll never, ever buy software
that disappears if I stop paying fo it. Got nowhere - had to break the
"conversation" after 20m of repeating myself as politely as I could as I
had to get to a meeting.
On my return, fuming, I started wondering if I could do without DW. A
bit more research revealed reviews saying CS6 is a bit half-baked, and
that CSS3 and HTML5 support is thin.
What other options are there with support for large sites (which I
really value?). (Alternativeto.net is a good site for this, by the
way.) Lots of small, fairly obscure packages, and people recommending
Notepad (no global search and replace, for one thing) - nothing that
seems to have comparable standing in the market (a confidence issue - at
my age learning new software is a pain, and an investment I make only
after careful review). Expression Web (version 4 is the latest) came up
a few times. I tinkered with an early version once, and liked it, and
it's a mile away from the grotesque FrontPage, which mangled my brains
for years with eccentric ways of doing things. Could I face buying a
copy of Expression Web?
No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now! Even at the former price
(£125 springs to mind) I thought it was good value compared with DW, and
now it's a steal. No it's not, it's free. It's got good CSS 2.1
support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/expression/
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=36179
So, I figure I can do without Dreamweaver CS6, and I'll try doing new
sites in Expression Web - which will fit better with my intention of
boning up on ASP.net as well.
</rant>
--
Phil, London
Gus Richter
Mar 27, 2013, 6:32:05 PM3/27/13
to
On 3/27/2013 4:44 PM, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> A bit more research (on DW) revealed reviews saying CS6 is a bit
Standards support.
The Co-chairman of the W3C CSS Working Group has BlueGriffon as one of
his products with css 2.1, css 3 and HTML5 support (conformaning to
the latest Web Standards. With this info and the fact that it's free,
why not go and try it out?
--
Gus
> A bit more research (on DW) revealed reviews saying CS6 is a bit
> half-baked, and that CSS3 and HTML5 support is thin.
> Expression Web by Microsoft is free. It's got good CSS 2.1
> support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
DW has had a lot of negative reports and MS has had problems with
Standards support.
The Co-chairman of the W3C CSS Working Group has BlueGriffon as one of
his products with css 2.1, css 3 and HTML5 support (conformaning to
the latest Web Standards. With this info and the fact that it's free,
why not go and try it out?
--
Gus
Philip Herlihy
Mar 27, 2013, 6:41:10 PM3/27/13
to
In article <kivrt5$6tj$1...@dont-email.me>, gusri...@netscape.net says...
I will indeed. Thanks!
--
Phil, London
--
Phil, London
Simona
Mar 28, 2013, 4:39:00 AM3/28/13
to
html-editor basic is free but each add-on has a price....
User's Manual Price: 5.00€
CSS Pro Editor Price: 11.50€
and so on ....
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
Mar 28, 2013, 8:39:05 AM3/28/13
to
Simona wrote:
> Gus Richter wrote:
>> On 3/27/2013 4:44 PM, Philip Herlihy wrote:
>>> A bit more research (on DW) revealed reviews saying CS6 is a bit
>>> half-baked, and that CSS3 and HTML5 support is thin.
>> >
>> > Expression Web by Microsoft is free. It's got good CSS 2.1
>> > support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
>>
>> DW has had a lot of negative reports and MS has had problems with
>> Standards support.
>>
>> The Co-chairman of the W3C CSS Working Group has BlueGriffon as one of
>> his products with css 2.1, css 3 and HTML5 support (conformaning to
>> the latest Web Standards. With this info and the fact that it's free,
>> why not go and try it out?
>
which comes for free (and can handle even PHP-generated stylesheets well),
and – finding Chromium's/Chrome's CSS editor's usability unsatisfactory with
advanced properties like shadows and gradients – I am working on a Web-based
cross-browser CSS editor.
Several browsers have built-in Web developer tools, or can be augmented with
add-ons (like Firebug [3]), including a (browser-specific) CSS editor, for
free. The Chromium/Chrome Developer Tools [2] are arguably the most
advanced in that area, allowing you also to add new selectors (with a clever
default), live-edit loaded and added stylesheet source code, and to
save/restore revisions of it in the browser, and save the result as a file.
PointedEars
___________
[1] <http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/webtools.sourceediting>
[2] <https://developers.google.com/chrome-developer-tools/docs/elements-
styles>
[3] <http://getfirebug.com/>
--
Prototype.js was written by people who don't know javascript for people
who don't know javascript. People who don't know javascript are not
the best source of advice on designing systems that use javascript.
-- Richard Cornford, cljs, <f806at$ail$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk>
> Gus Richter wrote:
>> On 3/27/2013 4:44 PM, Philip Herlihy wrote:
>>> A bit more research (on DW) revealed reviews saying CS6 is a bit
>>> half-baked, and that CSS3 and HTML5 support is thin.
>> >
>> > Expression Web by Microsoft is free. It's got good CSS 2.1
>> > support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
>>
>> DW has had a lot of negative reports and MS has had problems with
>> Standards support.
>>
>> The Co-chairman of the W3C CSS Working Group has BlueGriffon as one of
>> his products with css 2.1, css 3 and HTML5 support (conformaning to
>> the latest Web Standards. With this info and the fact that it's free,
>> why not go and try it out?
>
> html-editor basic is free but each add-on has a price....
> User's Manual Price: 5.00€
> CSS Pro Editor Price: 11.50€
> and so on ....
I am using the CSS editor in the Eclipse (4.3 M6) Web Tools Platform [1]
> User's Manual Price: 5.00€
> CSS Pro Editor Price: 11.50€
> and so on ....
which comes for free (and can handle even PHP-generated stylesheets well),
and – finding Chromium's/Chrome's CSS editor's usability unsatisfactory with
advanced properties like shadows and gradients – I am working on a Web-based
cross-browser CSS editor.
Several browsers have built-in Web developer tools, or can be augmented with
add-ons (like Firebug [3]), including a (browser-specific) CSS editor, for
free. The Chromium/Chrome Developer Tools [2] are arguably the most
advanced in that area, allowing you also to add new selectors (with a clever
default), live-edit loaded and added stylesheet source code, and to
save/restore revisions of it in the browser, and save the result as a file.
PointedEars
___________
[1] <http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/webtools.sourceediting>
[2] <https://developers.google.com/chrome-developer-tools/docs/elements-
styles>
[3] <http://getfirebug.com/>
--
Prototype.js was written by people who don't know javascript for people
who don't know javascript. People who don't know javascript are not
the best source of advice on designing systems that use javascript.
-- Richard Cornford, cljs, <f806at$ail$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk>
Simona
Mar 28, 2013, 9:17:25 AM3/28/13
to
thanks
Philip Herlihy
Mar 28, 2013, 2:10:48 PM3/28/13
to
In article <d708l8h0ppai4t79u...@4ax.com>,
sim...@hotmail.xx says...
> User's Manual Price: 5.00ￜ
> CSS Pro Editor Price: 11.50ￜ
> and so on ....
Thanks, I will have a look at this.
--
Phil, London
sim...@hotmail.xx says...
> CSS Pro Editor Price: 11.50ￜ
> and so on ....
Thanks, I will have a look at this.
--
Phil, London
Philip Herlihy
Mar 28, 2013, 2:23:04 PM3/28/13
to
In article <4661795.A...@PointedEars.de>, Point...@web.de
says...
> advanced properties like shadows and gradients ? I am working on a Web-based
actually got on better with the IE9 development tools. Firebug and the
IE9 DT's can't help you if you need to rearrange your folder structure,
while Dreamweaver can just sort out all the links automatically.
--
Phil, London
says...
>
> Simona wrote:
>
> > Gus Richter wrote:
> >> On 3/27/2013 4:44 PM, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> >>> A bit more research (on DW) revealed reviews saying CS6 is a bit
> >>> half-baked, and that CSS3 and HTML5 support is thin.
> Simona wrote:
>
> > Gus Richter wrote:
> >> On 3/27/2013 4:44 PM, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> >>> A bit more research (on DW) revealed reviews saying CS6 is a bit
> >>> half-baked, and that CSS3 and HTML5 support is thin.
...
>
> I am using the CSS editor in the Eclipse (4.3 M6) Web Tools Platform [1]
> which comes for free (and can handle even PHP-generated stylesheets well),
> and ? finding Chromium's/Chrome's CSS editor's usability unsatisfactory with
>
> I am using the CSS editor in the Eclipse (4.3 M6) Web Tools Platform [1]
> which comes for free (and can handle even PHP-generated stylesheets well),
> advanced properties like shadows and gradients ? I am working on a Web-based
> cross-browser CSS editor.
>
> Several browsers have built-in Web developer tools, or can be augmented with
> add-ons (like Firebug [3]), including a (browser-specific) CSS editor, for
> free. The Chromium/Chrome Developer Tools [2] are arguably the most
> advanced in that area, allowing you also to add new selectors (with a clever
> default), live-edit loaded and added stylesheet source code, and to
> save/restore revisions of it in the browser, and save the result as a file.
>
>
> PointedEars
> ___________
> [1] <http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/webtools.sourceediting>
> [2] <https://developers.google.com/chrome-developer-tools/docs/elements-
> styles>
> [3] <http://getfirebug.com/>
Thanks - I'll look at these too. I have played with firebug, but
>
> Several browsers have built-in Web developer tools, or can be augmented with
> add-ons (like Firebug [3]), including a (browser-specific) CSS editor, for
> free. The Chromium/Chrome Developer Tools [2] are arguably the most
> advanced in that area, allowing you also to add new selectors (with a clever
> default), live-edit loaded and added stylesheet source code, and to
> save/restore revisions of it in the browser, and save the result as a file.
>
>
> PointedEars
> ___________
> [1] <http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/webtools.sourceediting>
> [2] <https://developers.google.com/chrome-developer-tools/docs/elements-
> styles>
> [3] <http://getfirebug.com/>
actually got on better with the IE9 development tools. Firebug and the
IE9 DT's can't help you if you need to rearrange your folder structure,
while Dreamweaver can just sort out all the links automatically.
--
Phil, London
Philip Herlihy
Mar 28, 2013, 2:36:01 PM3/28/13
to
> User's Manual Price: 5.00ￜ
> CSS Pro Editor Price: 11.50ￜ
> and so on ....
Is that the Coffee-Cup one?
> CSS Pro Editor Price: 11.50ￜ
> and so on ....
http://www.coffeecup.com/free-editor/
--
Phil, London
tlvp
Mar 28, 2013, 11:01:00 PM3/28/13
to
On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:44:33 -0000, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> Expression Web?
>
> No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now! Even at the former price
> (£125 springs to mind) I thought it was good value compared with DW, and
> now it's a steal. No it's not, it's free. It's got good CSS 2.1
> support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/expression/
Philip, thanks for the URL, but MS is surprisingly silent on just what it
> Expression Web?
>
> No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now! Even at the former price
> (£125 springs to mind) I thought it was good value compared with DW, and
> now it's a steal. No it's not, it's free. It's got good CSS 2.1
> support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/expression/
is I should be expecting E. Design, E. Web, or E. Encoder to do for me,
other than let themselves "download at no charge." Care to fill me in?
Thanks, and cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
Osmo Saarikumpu
Mar 29, 2013, 1:34:13 AM3/29/13
to
On 28.3.2013 20:36, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> In article <d708l8h0ppai4t79u...@4ax.com>,
> sim...@hotmail.xx says...
> In article <d708l8h0ppai4t79u...@4ax.com>,
> sim...@hotmail.xx says...
>> html-editor basic is free but each add-on has a price....
>> User's Manual Price: 5.00€
>> CSS Pro Editor Price: 11.50€
Nope, that's BlueGriffon. I would not waste time with it, as every other
>> CSS Pro Editor Price: 11.50€
menu command will direct you to their site where you may purchase the
software bit by bit.
I'd go with Expression Web¹, as it's now free and the user interface is
very similar to Dreamweaver (seems like a stripped-down copy).
¹ http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=36179
--
Best wishes, Osmo
Philip Herlihy
Mar 29, 2013, 9:57:06 AM3/29/13
to
In article <kj394e$cm7$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, os...@weppipakki.com says...
Surely this is BlueGriffon?
http://bluegriffon.org/
--
Phil, London
>
> On 28.3.2013 20:36, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> > In article <d708l8h0ppai4t79u...@4ax.com>,
> > sim...@hotmail.xx says...
> >> html-editor basic is free but each add-on has a price....
> On 28.3.2013 20:36, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> > In article <d708l8h0ppai4t79u...@4ax.com>,
> > sim...@hotmail.xx says...
> >> html-editor basic is free but each add-on has a price....
> >> User's Manual Price: 5.00ￜ
> >> CSS Pro Editor Price: 11.50ￜ
> >> CSS Pro Editor Price: 11.50ￜ
> >> and so on ....
>
> > Is that the Coffee-Cup one?
> > http://www.coffeecup.com/free-editor/
>
> Nope, that's BlueGriffon. I would not waste time with it, as every other
> menu command will direct you to their site where you may purchase the
> software bit by bit.
>
As described by Simona above.
>
> > Is that the Coffee-Cup one?
> > http://www.coffeecup.com/free-editor/
>
> Nope, that's BlueGriffon. I would not waste time with it, as every other
> menu command will direct you to their site where you may purchase the
> software bit by bit.
>
Surely this is BlueGriffon?
http://bluegriffon.org/
--
Phil, London
Philip Herlihy
Mar 29, 2013, 10:18:41 AM3/29/13
to
In article <ns9vhn5j362j$.1gcuoe7lohw8v$.d...@40tude.net>,
mPiOsUcB...@att.net says...
all the more surprisingly since they are giving them away, although they
obviously want to promote Visual Studio 2012 - something I think I
shoudl look at, as I've used earlier versions in application design and
it's been superb. Microsoft's VBA design environment built into Office
applications like Word, Excel and especially Access are breathtakingly
good once you learn them properly.
Expression Web is their replacement for FrontPage, which is the tool I
first learned on, and the brain-mangling and misapprehensions that
resulted from that lives on in code I have to maintain, although I did
manage to produce the odd site I'm not too ashamed off (www.oldefc.com).
EW is in many ways very similar to Dreamweaver and does just about
everything that DW does. If you install it, and load up an existing
site in it, you'll see clearly how it works. It will become dated (no
suggestion of CSS3 or HTML5) but it was an attempt (no doubt imperfect,
but a serious one) to move significantly away from the horrors of FP and
IE6 towards creating pages which would render properly in standards-
compliant browsers. Like quite a few MS products which sought to carve
a share of a market a bit too late, after another product had become
market leader, it hasn't been a commercial success, but it's
nevertheless a good tool, and if you don't have DW then it may well be
the best alternative (pending checking out the other suggestions made in
this thread). And the price is just great now...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Expression_Web
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/expression/cc197140 (tutorials in an odd
order)
I haven't used Expression Design (although I've now downloaded it for a
play one day) but it seems to me to be their response to Adobe's
Fireworks, which I use for web graphics - a predominantly vector tool
with some graphics capabilities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Expression_Design
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/expression/cc197142.aspx (tutorials)
Encoder just isn't on my radar, but this is what Wikipedia says about
it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Expression_Encoder
--
Phil, London
mPiOsUcB...@att.net says...
>
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:44:33 -0000, Philip Herlihy wrote:
>
> > Expression Web?
> >
> > No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now! Even at the former price
> > (ￜ125 springs to mind) I thought it was good value compared with DW, and
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:44:33 -0000, Philip Herlihy wrote:
>
> > Expression Web?
> >
> > No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now! Even at the former price
> > now it's a steal. No it's not, it's free. It's got good CSS 2.1
> > support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
> >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/expression/
>
> Philip, thanks for the URL, but MS is surprisingly silent on just what it
> is I should be expecting E. Design, E. Web, or E. Encoder to do for me,
> other than let themselves "download at no charge." Care to fill me in?
>
They are surprisingly silent on what Expression Web and Design can do;
> > support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
> >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/expression/
>
> Philip, thanks for the URL, but MS is surprisingly silent on just what it
> is I should be expecting E. Design, E. Web, or E. Encoder to do for me,
> other than let themselves "download at no charge." Care to fill me in?
>
all the more surprisingly since they are giving them away, although they
obviously want to promote Visual Studio 2012 - something I think I
shoudl look at, as I've used earlier versions in application design and
it's been superb. Microsoft's VBA design environment built into Office
applications like Word, Excel and especially Access are breathtakingly
good once you learn them properly.
Expression Web is their replacement for FrontPage, which is the tool I
first learned on, and the brain-mangling and misapprehensions that
resulted from that lives on in code I have to maintain, although I did
manage to produce the odd site I'm not too ashamed off (www.oldefc.com).
EW is in many ways very similar to Dreamweaver and does just about
everything that DW does. If you install it, and load up an existing
site in it, you'll see clearly how it works. It will become dated (no
suggestion of CSS3 or HTML5) but it was an attempt (no doubt imperfect,
but a serious one) to move significantly away from the horrors of FP and
IE6 towards creating pages which would render properly in standards-
compliant browsers. Like quite a few MS products which sought to carve
a share of a market a bit too late, after another product had become
market leader, it hasn't been a commercial success, but it's
nevertheless a good tool, and if you don't have DW then it may well be
the best alternative (pending checking out the other suggestions made in
this thread). And the price is just great now...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Expression_Web
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/expression/cc197140 (tutorials in an odd
order)
I haven't used Expression Design (although I've now downloaded it for a
play one day) but it seems to me to be their response to Adobe's
Fireworks, which I use for web graphics - a predominantly vector tool
with some graphics capabilities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Expression_Design
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/expression/cc197142.aspx (tutorials)
Encoder just isn't on my radar, but this is what Wikipedia says about
it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Expression_Encoder
--
Phil, London
tlvp
Mar 29, 2013, 11:43:09 PM3/29/13
to
On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 14:18:41 -0000, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> They are surprisingly silent on what Expression Web and Design can do;
> all the more surprisingly since they are giving them away ...
> They are surprisingly silent on what Expression Web and Design can do;
>
> Expression Web is their replacement for FrontPage ...
Shades of the days I first tried it, before FrontPage belonged to MS :-) .
Thanks for pointing me to these three wiki URLs -- lazy me, not to have
thought there must be such bits of info out there without your prompting:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Expression_Web
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Expression_Design
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Expression_Encoder
Most helpful, Philip: thank you again! Cheers, and Happy Easter, -- tlvp
Philip Herlihy
Mar 30, 2013, 9:52:25 AM3/30/13
to
In article <MPG.2bbd6a8e8...@news.demon.co.uk>,
bounc...@you.com says...
> (ￜ125 springs to mind) I thought it was good value compared with DW, and
leg to stand on. That's because it's (probably) a safe bet that the
relevant term *would* have been somewhere on their website at the time,
and when you tick the "yeah, yeah" box, you really are bound - however
huge the reading burden would be. Secondly, if I'd found it didn't meet
my needs earlier I could have returned it under the UK's Distance
Selling Regulations, which allow 7 days after receipt for this. So I
didn't adopt a cocky or nasty attitude when I rang the UK office (=
North India Call Centre) a second time. This time, I got a sharp lady
with crisp English who had no problem understanding the issue, and she
soon suggested she'd see if she could get a free uplift authorised. The
new key arrived today, so (although I don't see why they shouldn't offer
a component-level upgrade, and I do think the restriction should be
easier to spot) thank you Adobe.
--
Phil, London
bounc...@you.com says...
> now it's a steal. No it's not, it's free. It's got good CSS 2.1
> support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/expression/
> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=36179
>
> So, I figure I can do without Dreamweaver CS6, and I'll try doing new
> sites in Expression Web - which will fit better with my intention of
> boning up on ASP.net as well.
>
> </rant>
My legal advice subscription made it clear that I probably didn't have a
> support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/expression/
> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=36179
>
> So, I figure I can do without Dreamweaver CS6, and I'll try doing new
> sites in Expression Web - which will fit better with my intention of
> boning up on ASP.net as well.
>
> </rant>
leg to stand on. That's because it's (probably) a safe bet that the
relevant term *would* have been somewhere on their website at the time,
and when you tick the "yeah, yeah" box, you really are bound - however
huge the reading burden would be. Secondly, if I'd found it didn't meet
my needs earlier I could have returned it under the UK's Distance
Selling Regulations, which allow 7 days after receipt for this. So I
didn't adopt a cocky or nasty attitude when I rang the UK office (=
North India Call Centre) a second time. This time, I got a sharp lady
with crisp English who had no problem understanding the issue, and she
soon suggested she'd see if she could get a free uplift authorised. The
new key arrived today, so (although I don't see why they shouldn't offer
a component-level upgrade, and I do think the restriction should be
easier to spot) thank you Adobe.
--
Phil, London
tlvp
Mar 30, 2013, 9:15:29 PM3/30/13
to
>> now it's a steal. No it's not, it's free. It's got good CSS 2.1
>> support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
>>
>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/expression/
>> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=36179
>>
>> So, I figure I can do without Dreamweaver CS6, and I'll try doing new
>> sites in Expression Web - which will fit better with my intention of
>> boning up on ASP.net as well.
>>
>> </rant>
>
> My legal advice subscription made it clear that I probably didn't have a
> leg to stand on. That's because it's (probably) a safe bet that the
> relevant term *would* have been somewhere on their website at the time,
> and when you tick the "yeah, yeah" box, you really are bound - however
> huge the reading burden would be. Secondly, if I'd found it didn't meet
> my needs earlier I could have returned it under the UK's Distance
> Selling Regulations, which allow 7 days after receipt for this. So I
> didn't adopt a cocky or nasty attitude when I rang the UK office (=
> North India Call Centre) a second time. This time, I got a sharp lady
> with crisp English who had no problem understanding the issue, and she
> soon suggested she'd see if she could get a free uplift authorised. The
> new key arrived today, so (although I don't see why they shouldn't offer
> a component-level upgrade, and I do think the restriction should be
> easier to spot) thank you Adobe.
The Bard put it aptly: "All's well that ends well." :-) Cheers, -- tlvp
>> support, and it was always presented as "standards compliant".
>>
>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/expression/
>> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=36179
>>
>> So, I figure I can do without Dreamweaver CS6, and I'll try doing new
>> sites in Expression Web - which will fit better with my intention of
>> boning up on ASP.net as well.
>>
>> </rant>
>
> My legal advice subscription made it clear that I probably didn't have a
> leg to stand on. That's because it's (probably) a safe bet that the
> relevant term *would* have been somewhere on their website at the time,
> and when you tick the "yeah, yeah" box, you really are bound - however
> huge the reading burden would be. Secondly, if I'd found it didn't meet
> my needs earlier I could have returned it under the UK's Distance
> Selling Regulations, which allow 7 days after receipt for this. So I
> didn't adopt a cocky or nasty attitude when I rang the UK office (=
> North India Call Centre) a second time. This time, I got a sharp lady
> with crisp English who had no problem understanding the issue, and she
> soon suggested she'd see if she could get a free uplift authorised. The
> new key arrived today, so (although I don't see why they shouldn't offer
> a component-level upgrade, and I do think the restriction should be
> easier to spot) thank you Adobe.
dorayme
Mar 30, 2013, 10:47:17 PM3/30/13
to
In article <7t6g3japbkb6.1i269481fe38j$.d...@40tude.net>,
tlvp <mPiOsUcB...@att.net> wrote:
...
> The Bard put it aptly: "All's well that ends well." :-) Cheers, -- tlvp
There is no need to quote so much when replying thus. I pay per
character downloaded and my ISP (an intergalactic one that is light
years in advance of your civilization) has an extra loading on
unnecessary downloaded characters.
And besides, the saying is stupid. Iraq might end well one day. In no
way was "all well".
--
dorayme
tlvp <mPiOsUcB...@att.net> wrote:
...
> The Bard put it aptly: "All's well that ends well." :-) Cheers, -- tlvp
character downloaded and my ISP (an intergalactic one that is light
years in advance of your civilization) has an extra loading on
unnecessary downloaded characters.
And besides, the saying is stupid. Iraq might end well one day. In no
way was "all well".
--
dorayme
tlvp
Mar 31, 2013, 2:35:50 PM3/31/13
to
On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 13:47:17 +1100, dorayme grumped:
> There is no need to quote so much ...
And a Happy Easter to you :-) ! Cheers, -- tlvp
> There is no need to quote so much ...
And a Happy Easter to you :-) ! Cheers, -- tlvp
David Stone
Apr 2, 2013, 2:39:13 PM4/2/13
to
In article <dorayme-FF0740...@news.albasani.net>,
Ah, but if it didn't end well then you can't claim that all is well!
At least, so says my understanding of Shakespeare's over-used phrase.
At least, so says my understanding of Shakespeare's over-used phrase.
dorayme
Apr 2, 2013, 9:26:04 PM4/2/13
to
In article
<no.email-278EC3...@news.eternal-september.org>,
OK, there is a tautological interpretation that secures the truth of
the playwright's saying. But the realistic point is that if - to
continue the example - Iraq, in a *million* years, comes to be a
decent safe place, it is hardly any endorsement for the process that
happened immediately following Saddam's overthrow.
--
dorayme
<no.email-278EC3...@news.eternal-september.org>,
the playwright's saying. But the realistic point is that if - to
continue the example - Iraq, in a *million* years, comes to be a
decent safe place, it is hardly any endorsement for the process that
happened immediately following Saddam's overthrow.
--
dorayme
Swifty
Apr 4, 2013, 2:42:25 PM4/4/13
to
On 27/03/2013 20:44, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> Could I face buying a
> copy of Expression Web?
>
> No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now!
I've only skimmed the first of the URL's you gave, but it says that
> Could I face buying a
> copy of Expression Web?
>
> No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now!
Expression Web will be maintained, but not updated.
So aren't you painting yourself into another corner?
--
Steve Swift
http://www.swiftys.org.uk/
Ed Mullen
Apr 4, 2013, 9:18:19 PM4/4/13
to
Swifty wrote:
> On 27/03/2013 20:44, Philip Herlihy wrote:
>> Could I face buying a
>> copy of Expression Web?
>>
>> No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now!
>
> I've only skimmed the first of the URL's you gave, but it says that
> Expression Web will be maintained, but not updated.
>
> So aren't you painting yourself into another corner?
>
I downloaded and installed and ran it. Too mucch of a learing curve to
> On 27/03/2013 20:44, Philip Herlihy wrote:
>> Could I face buying a
>> copy of Expression Web?
>>
>> No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now!
>
> I've only skimmed the first of the URL's you gave, but it says that
> Expression Web will be maintained, but not updated.
>
> So aren't you painting yourself into another corner?
>
even figure out if it sorks vs. knowing how to write HTML in a text editor.
I'm uninstalling it now.
--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
When in doubt assume that, once again, you've outsmarted yourself.
Philip Herlihy
Apr 5, 2013, 8:45:30 AM4/5/13
to
In article <kjkhie$717$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, steve....@gmail.com
says...
support for CSS3 and HTML5, but for now it's a competent tool, and it's
likely to be quite a while before it's no longer useful.
--
Phil, London
says...
>
> On 27/03/2013 20:44, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> > Could I face buying a
> > copy of Expression Web?
> >
> > No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now!
>
> I've only skimmed the first of the URL's you gave, but it says that
> Expression Web will be maintained, but not updated.
>
> So aren't you painting yourself into another corner?
Of course - the web is changing rapidly, and there won't be any explicit
> On 27/03/2013 20:44, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> > Could I face buying a
> > copy of Expression Web?
> >
> > No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now!
>
> I've only skimmed the first of the URL's you gave, but it says that
> Expression Web will be maintained, but not updated.
>
> So aren't you painting yourself into another corner?
support for CSS3 and HTML5, but for now it's a competent tool, and it's
likely to be quite a while before it's no longer useful.
--
Phil, London
Philip Herlihy
Apr 5, 2013, 8:48:03 AM4/5/13
to
In article <6fhu9v....@news.alt.net>, e...@MUNGEedmullen.net says...
editors is mostly in their ability to let you move files around at will
(with everything automatically updated) and to make global changes via
templates. I'd never go back to a simple text editor, and my
programming background makes me look for an IDE (Integreted Development
Environment) anyway. Have to acknowledge, though, the dilemma between
learning new tools to speed up your work, and actually finding time to
do any work at all!
--
Phil, London
>
> Swifty wrote:
> > On 27/03/2013 20:44, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> >> Could I face buying a
> >> copy of Expression Web?
> >>
> >> No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now!
> >
> > I've only skimmed the first of the URL's you gave, but it says that
> > Expression Web will be maintained, but not updated.
> >
> > So aren't you painting yourself into another corner?
> >
>
> I downloaded and installed and ran it. Too mucch of a learing curve to
> even figure out if it sorks vs. knowing how to write HTML in a text editor.
>
> I'm uninstalling it now.
It's worth persisting with. The advantage of such tools over bare text
> Swifty wrote:
> > On 27/03/2013 20:44, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> >> Could I face buying a
> >> copy of Expression Web?
> >>
> >> No need to - Microsoft are giving it away now!
> >
> > I've only skimmed the first of the URL's you gave, but it says that
> > Expression Web will be maintained, but not updated.
> >
> > So aren't you painting yourself into another corner?
> >
>
> I downloaded and installed and ran it. Too mucch of a learing curve to
> even figure out if it sorks vs. knowing how to write HTML in a text editor.
>
> I'm uninstalling it now.
editors is mostly in their ability to let you move files around at will
(with everything automatically updated) and to make global changes via
templates. I'd never go back to a simple text editor, and my
programming background makes me look for an IDE (Integreted Development
Environment) anyway. Have to acknowledge, though, the dilemma between
learning new tools to speed up your work, and actually finding time to
do any work at all!
--
Phil, London
Simon
Apr 26, 2013, 9:06:38 AM4/26/13
to
On 2013-03-27 20:44:33 +0000, Philip Herlihy <bounc...@you.com> said:
> <rant>
I think your best option here would be to pursue getting a refund for
the upgrade that you can't use.
The adobe forums can be a good source of advice
http://forums.adobe.com/community/dreamweaver/
DW 6 is a great improvement over earlier versions, they fixed a lot of
bugs and added support for CSS 3 etc
-
Simon
> <rant>
> I thought it was time to upgrade to CS6, hoping for a better embedded
> browser (apparently now using WebKit) and better support for CSS3 and
> HTML5. The discounted upgrade offers ended on New Years' Eve, ...</rant>
> browser (apparently now using WebKit) and better support for CSS3 and
I think your best option here would be to pursue getting a refund for
the upgrade that you can't use.
The adobe forums can be a good source of advice
http://forums.adobe.com/community/dreamweaver/
DW 6 is a great improvement over earlier versions, they fixed a lot of
bugs and added support for CSS 3 etc
-
Simon
Philip Herlihy
Apr 26, 2013, 9:27:51 AM4/26/13
to
In article <kldu4r$agm$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Si...@nospam.invalid
says...
You may not have seen my post in which I explained that Adobe had simply
given me a new key, and DW 6 is now installed. (Thanks, Adobe!).
Irritatingly, other (non-web) work has exploded recently and I haven't
yet had a chance to explore it properly - odd page updates are still
being done in DW4. Sigh...
--
Phil, London
says...
given me a new key, and DW 6 is now installed. (Thanks, Adobe!).
Irritatingly, other (non-web) work has exploded recently and I haven't
yet had a chance to explore it properly - odd page updates are still
being done in DW4. Sigh...
--
Phil, London
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