What can I replace this latching relay system with?
Steve Wechsler
are controlled by latching relays, with low voltage switches in the
walls connected to the relays in the ceiling boxes with 3 conductor
cable (there are also some relay-controlled outlets, and I haven't yet
figured out where the relays are for those). There is a central
transformer, connected to each switch by additional two conductor wires
(no idea if they are daisy chained or home run, but I assume the
former). There are also a couple of remote multi-function switches,
which have a knob that allow you to choose one of 10 or so different
relays to control, along with a switch that turns the remote fixture on
or off. I assume the remote is wired directly to the remote relays
using more 3 conductor cable. Most wiring is similar to what we used to
call rotor cable (for wiring up TV antenna rotors), but some is simply
three solid conductor wires twisted together.
Anyway, I'd like to replace this sytem with something a bit more
modern. Although all the relays work (one or two are starting to give
me a little trouble), I'd like to have the ability to dim lights, and
even better, set up some automated controls. Is there any system that
will allow me to use the existing wiring infrastructure? The walls are
plaster so I don't want to tear them apart.
Please respond in the newsgroup.
Thanks,
Steve
Robert L Bass
If the circuits are controlled from a central relay / power distribution
board you might be able to replace it with a CentraLite system. You'd have
to run new low voltage control cables to the places where the remote buttons
are now.
A simpler method would be to use a PLC such as X10 or Insteon (many threads
here describe problems with these) or an RF system such as Z-Wave.
Unfortunately, each of these systems was designed for a somewhat different
physical construction than what you have so each would involve some degree
of kludging to make it work.
How handy are you at running new low voltage wires in an existing home?
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
941-866-1100 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
Marc_F_Hult
wrote in message <1153947433.6...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>:
Some thoughts:
1) There is a yahoo group dedicated to GE Low Voltage (GELV) which may be
what you have (What you describe matches what I've seen in a GE home in
Cincinnati). I believe that folks in this group track availability of
replacement parts. They may also have some tips on retrofits.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gelv/?yguid=61639152
2) Three wires (more or less regardless of insulation, gauge and twisted
or not ) is adequate for local up/down dimmer controls (2 SPST with common
hot). They might also prove adequate for Dallas 1-wire protocol
http://www.maxim-ic.com/1-Wire.cfm . So the low-voltage part of your
infrastructure can be recycled, although it might involve some home brew.
Low speed, 1-way serial control RS-232/485 is also within reach and 2-way
is possible with the addition of local dc power or a parasitic mode.
3) Presumably you want to modernize from on-off relay switching to
dimmers. I'd check into Centralite www.centralite.com as a good option
that could recycle your AC wiring. www.Homeseer.com has announced that
they will be supporting Centralite in the near future.
I have some stuff on homebrew hard-wired lighting including DMX512 at
www.ECOntrol.org, but that server will be down until the weekend.
HTH ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
Robert Green
<stuff snipped>
> A simpler method would be to use a PLC such as X10 or Insteon (many
threads
> here describe problems with these) or an RF system such as Z-Wave.
> Unfortunately, each of these systems was designed for a somewhat different
> physical construction than what you have so each would involve some degree
> of kludging to make it work.
I would think it would be as simple as shunting past the relays so the
switch or outlet is always on and then controlling the loads via PLC or RF
off-the-shelf stuff. You could always keep all relays energized, but why
waste the current if you can bypass them? In any event, I believe it's
going to require creativity on the part of the OP.
--
Bobby G.
Robert Green
> Just purchased a house built in the early 50s. Almost all the lights
> are controlled by latching relays, with low voltage switches in the
> walls connected to the relays in the ceiling boxes with 3 conductor
> cable
<stuff snipped>
Fascinating stuff. Got any photos? I'll be you could get "This Old House"
interested in taking on your project - they love stuff like that.
> Anyway, I'd like to replace this sytem with something a bit more
> modern. Although all the relays work (one or two are starting to give
> me a little trouble), I'd like to have the ability to dim lights, and
> even better, set up some automated controls. Is there any system that
> will allow me to use the existing wiring infrastructure? The walls are
> plaster so I don't want to tear them apart.
If you can bypass all the relays and keep the switches and outlets energized
all the time, you can use traditional PLC or RF control methods. You may be
able to do that at each outlet but you may only be able to do it at the
rotary switch, energizing each segment with a shunt.
Modern HA equipment that uses hardwiring usually requires CAT5 be pulled to
each switch and outlet for low voltage signalling and control purposes.
http://www.toolbase.org/Technology-Inventory/Electrical-Electronics/lighting
-controls
Your 3 wire low voltage circuitry wouldn't likely cut it for anything but a
very home brewed system, especially if it's energized or interconnected in
unexpected or unknown ways. "Undocumented existing cabling" as the phone
company techs like to say when they explain why they are laying new cable
and not using the old stuff.
My hunch is replacing the three wires with CAT5 in a plaster and lathe house
is way more than you want to undertake and I'd agree. I'll bet that you
also want something standard that's not going to be a real problem when
selling the house.
I'd probably wire an Ocelot and a SECU 16 to the existing antique controller
to take over the function of "twist" and command. That would allow you to
"twist" that dial in milliseconds, electronically. You could map a standard
X-10 controller to your existing dial layout easily. Then you could
replace the existing, non-dimming switches with PLC dimmers which you can
also control via the Ocelot and SECU16 relay controller. That way you'd
have your dim function as well. Add an RF transceiver and you can control
and dim the lights wirelessly.
A lot of this depends on exactly how the wiring is configured. You'll
probably have to determine whether neutrals are pulled to each switch. You
might have to test to see if PLC will indeed work at all in your application
before going very far.
The folks in the ADI forum should be able to tell you what such a solution
would entail, costwise, timewise and skillwise.
http://www.appdigusers.com/forum/
--
Bobby G.
Steve Wechsler
a GELV system, and while I did subscribe to the Yahoo group, the
traffic on it is very low. However, there is some interesting info
there. But it seems that the system is common enough in post-war homes
that This Old House wouldn't have any interest... (I don't know if you
were serious about that point...)
The ocelot looks interesting, I'll have to investigate that further.
I've worked with X10 in the past and am familiar with its reliability
issues. However, I never really went past the basic switches, outlets,
lamp modules and timer/controllers available at X10.com...
Since the relays are latching there's no reason to keep them energized,
I could just turn them on and leave them. However, it's probably better
to remove them from the system entirely. I haven't investigated yet,
but I assume they were installed in such a way that they can be
replaced without tearing up the ceiling, and if they can be replaced,
they can be replaced with a more modern control system (assuming I can
get the modules to physically fit in the old locations).
It seems like what you're suggesting is that I replace the wired
switches with wireless...is that correct?
E. Lee Dickinson
"Steve Wechsler" <swec...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> It seems like what you're suggesting is that I replace the wired
> switches with wireless...is that correct?
The problem you're going to have is that, as I understand it, you don't have
120vac at your switch locations, so none of the PLC systems are going to
work.
Pulling new Cat5 to switch locations, even in a plaster/lathe house
shouldn't be too difficult if you have attic and crawlspace. If you could
get 120vac to your switch locations, you could use a PLC switch there, and
then use inline modules in the ceilings. It could get pretty tight, though.
I wonder if it would be possible to dream up a hack for an inline dimming
module that would allow for hardwired up/down commands?
Perhaps a very simple PWM dimmer could be designed to replace your relays,
and a PWM controller (a 555 with a pot?) could replace the switches?
How common is this old system? A plug-and-play replacement might be worth
designing by someone smart, if they could make a few bucks. Or if they liked
the challenge.
Dave Houston
wires.
You have 120V at the lighting fixtures and outlets. The relays swich this
under control of the remote low-voltage switches.
I think (but am not expert) most of the central lighting systems (e.g.
Centralite, LiteTouch, Vantage) mount their dimmers and switches near the
entrance panel and require home-runs of the 120V lines from each controlled
location. Neither your 120V nor low voltage control wiring goes where it
needs to go for centralized systems but you may be able to mount dimmers in
place of the relays. You'll have to check with the various companies that
make this type system. I posted a list of such companies a few months back
to CHA.
You haven't mentioned your budget. These GE systems tended to be installed
in upscale residences (I saw my first one in 1962 next door to Bing Crosby's
house in Atherton, CA.) but that doesn't always mean the neighborhood is
still upscale 50 years later.
You said the walls are plaster. Is it over plasterboard, lath or wire-lath?
SmartHome's In-LineLinc Insteon dimmers can control the loads but I'm not
sure how you would control the inline dimmers since you need a transmitter
(normally a wall mounted switch) connected to 120V and your switch locations
do not have 120V.
I don't know if John Jones is monitoring CHA (he's rebuilding his tornado
damaged home) but he has some expertise in the GE low voltage system (and
even had some spare parts for them). He might be able to shed some light on
this.
Marc_F_Hult
in message <44ca1e04....@nntp.fuse.net>:
>I think you will have problems finding dimmers to use the existing
>control wires.
>
>You have 120V at the lighting fixtures and outlets. The relays swich this
>under control of the remote low-voltage switches.
In my recent experience, there are not problems finding 120 VAC lighting
dimmers using (nominal) 0-10 vdc . Analog low-voltage control of dimmed AC
lighting has been conventional and available for many years.
One readily available 0-10vdc analog input module that I have used
successfully in a commercial installation and have described previously in
comp.home.automation is Crydom's 0PCV2425 that provides variable power
("dimming") with a (maximum rated) 25 amp 120- 240VAC load.
http://www.crydom.com//userResources/productFamilies/50/crydom_pcv.pdf
15 and 40-amp versions are also available and also in stock at
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T062/1564.pdf
Ordering from www.Digikey.com is a breeze and delivery is near
instantaneous.
(Note: As I remember/understand the US National Electrical Code (NEC), the
'switch' in this application needs to be de-rated 25% from max, so "15
amp" solid state relays (SSRs) do not meet NEC even for 15 amp lighting
circuits. Jist my "understanding" -- not gospel.)
For a wall controller, a simple approximately 10k potentiometer used as a
divide of a 10vdc supply will work perfectly and with reliability that
surpasses any powerline control system. However, this doesn't provide you
with "home automation".
My web site should be back up this weekend and may give you some
additional ideas on analog control for home automation including using
DMX512, SSR's and motorized potentiometers for HA control *if* you are
interested in DIY solutions or have an installer that is willing and able
to do (much ? ;-) more than installing commercial, turn-key systems.
... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
Steve Wechsler
Marc_F_Hult wrote:
> One readily available 0-10vdc analog input module that I have used
> successfully in a commercial installation and have described previously in
> ("dimming") with a (maximum rated) 25 amp 120- 240VAC load.
I checked out those Crydom controllers, and geez, they are expensive -
about $75 a pop. And I'd still need to add a pot at each switch
location.
I'm now considering an Insteon system; they apparently have an inline
module that could be mounted in a ceiling box. I'd then have to find a
battery powered switch that could be mounted in (or over) the old
switch openeings and transmit the signals to an insteon tranceiver (at
least, I could do it this way with X10, but I don't like the delay that
X10 has, and also they don't appear to have a single wireless X10
switch). Smarthome's search engine isn't particularly good, and I got
tired of wading through pages of products.
Another option would be to hack an X10 pro dimmer with wired remote
switch to somehow mount it in a ceiling box, and mount the remote
switch in the standard locations, using the existing wires to connect
the two. However, this option would be a last resort.
Opinions?
Thanks,
Steve
Steve Wechsler
It is a two story house with plaster walls and ceilings over (mostly)
rock lathe (also some wire mesh, mostly around bathrooms). I could run
120V wiring to the wall switches on the first floor; this would be
fairly easy. However, there is no attic, so redoing the second story
switches would be very difficult. It's not worth opening the walls for
this; we're doing enough other work and we want to finish the house in
the next few weeks (the lighting project is separate, and won't be
affected by our other work).
Steve
Dave Houston
overhead lights as pull wires to snake romex between switches and lights?
E. Lee Dickinson
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:44cb8321....@nntp.fuse.net...
> Might it be possible to use the low voltage cables between switches and
> the
> overhead lights as pull wires to snake romex between switches and lights?
Dave, you're reminding me of my least favorite NEC item ever: All the
freeking staples that have to go in on romex, when the wall is opened.
These staples guarantee two things: 1) that I will never be able to pull
the romex back out of the wall or use it as a pull wire for something new.
2) That a misplaced screw or nail will puncture the romex instead of simply
pushing it aside.
I hate it so much that I have considered waiting to wire rooms until after
the drywall is up, so that I can wire it as renovation wiring.
Marc_F_Hult
wrote in message <1154180596.4...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
>
>Marc_F_Hult wrote:
>> One readily available 0-10vdc analog input module that I have used
>> successfully in a commercial installation and have described previously
in
>> comp.home.automation is Crydom's CV2425 that provides variable power
>> ("dimming") with a (maximum rated) 25 amp 120- 240VAC load.
>
>I checked out those Crydom controllers, and geez, they are expensive -
>about $75 a pop. And I'd still need to add a pot at each switch
>location.
OK. Then here's a $60 solution that allows for conventional home
automation.
It is, as best I know, a novel approach -- leastwise I've never seen it
described before -- that would also satisfy many/most Authorities Having
Jurisdiction (AHJ; aka inspectors) of the US National Electrical Cod (NEC)
Jist this geologist's opinion to be shure ... ;-)
1) Install an INSTEON ICON dimmer ($19.99) at the wall switch location.
Connect the black and white (hot and neutral) of the dimmer to the primary
of a UL listed, low-voltage transformer such as those used for doorbell
installation. They are available for ~$10 at your local Big Box. The red
wire on the dimmer is unused (put a wire nut on it). Connect the secondary
connections of the transformer to two of the low-voltage wires that go to
the ceiling box. Bypass (interconnect ) both primaries to both secondaries
using 0.1 or 0.2ufd 300VAC mylar or other high-frequency, non-polar
capacitor (more on this later). This provides for the INSTEON signal to
get across the transformer which attenuates high frequency.
2) At the ceiling,conventionally connect the ceiling lamp (i.e., the load)
to the AC line using an INSTEON inline dimmer or (essentially the same
thing, except 1/2 the price) an INSTEON ICON dimmer (with the switch plate
removed if you prefer). Also connect a transformer *identical* to the one
at the wall switch to the neutral and hot (Black and white wire) and also
bypass the transformer with two capacitors as with the one at the wall
switch.
3) Set this up using the tap-to-program manner of having one INSTEON
dimmer (the one at the wall switch location) serve as the controller for a
dimmer that controls the load (in the ceiling.
If:
1) your low voltage wire conforms to code to begin with,
2) the transformer produces 50 volts peak or less,
3) your local inspector doesn't balk at the bypass capacitors (these are,
after all, used the various UL-listed X-10 filters and couplers
including X-10 Pro's) and
4) you conventionally mount the transformer (line voltage inside the
j-box; low voltage outside)
you may be OK NEC-wise. (You would need to determine this with your
inspector. My opinion is irrelevant.)
I'll test out this tomorrow. I have all the components in hand.
Steve Wechsler
E. Lee Dickinson wrote:
> "Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
> news:44cb8321....@nntp.fuse.net...
> > Might it be possible to use the low voltage cables between switches and
> > the
> > overhead lights as pull wires to snake romex between switches and lights?
>
> Dave, you're reminding me of my least favorite NEC item ever: All the
> freeking staples that have to go in on romex, when the wall is opened.
Dave has hit the nail (pun intended) on the head.
Don't you just hate it when things are done properly?
Steve
Dave Houston
If "done properly" even the low voltage wires would be in conduit and you
would have little difficulty. I live in a building built about the same time
and in the same fashion and nearly everything is in conduit.
Robert Green
> Don't you just hate it when things are done properly?
Speaking of doing things properly, there are very few options that are going
to allow your house to pass inspection once you decide to modify the system.
If I were you, I'd want something that you allows you to restore back to the
old GE system, which apparently passes code or passed code once upon a time.
A valid certificate of occupancy is not an intangible benefit in the real
estate world.
If you can't design a "loosely coupled" retrofit, be very careful about
what you select. Try to find out before sinking $$$ into something whether
it's likely to be certified by an inspector. You may want to consider
whether you want to risk making him so frequent a visitor you begin to think
of him as a member of your immediate family.
From what's been discussed here and elsewhere, a kludged electrical system
can force you to take a hit of up to $20K on the sale price. It frightens
far more buyers and real estate agents than it excites. Of course, it may
be that you already got a $20K price break because the previous seller had
trouble selling the house because of unusual lighting system. Still, if
it's currently approved, that's worth something.
You won't be able to do *anything* that passes code without a schematic of
the original installation and lots of time spent with a meter, a wire
tracing set and a pen and paper. Even then, inspectors don't usually trust
what they can't see or trace. If they even suspect you fished a single wire
through existing staples, you'd be all washed up. They would assume ALL the
cables in the wall had insulation scraped off them. That's how they think.
They are not likely to let you hook 110VAC devices to wires buried in walls
they can't see, especially when there's a chance you may have inadvertently
connected low power switches to 110VAX loads. That's why electrical
inspections have to be done before the drywall goes up. Most inpsectors
have the power to make you rip out every square inch of wallboard if you
screw up, too, before they'll approve your job.
The reality is that inspectors can throw you right out of your own house and
revoke your C of O if they decide there's a risk to any of the occupants.
If you're doing all the mods yourself, and you're not a licensed
electrician, it's doubtful they'll give you the benefit of the doubt on any
issue that arises. If you're not inclined to get the place inspected while
doing the work, well, that's only putting off the trauma to some unknown
future date in all likelihood.
The place I'd make the change is at the big rotary switch(es) and at the
fixtures and outlets themselves. I'd take all the wires coming out of the
wall to the rotary switch and feed them into a multi-conductor connector.
I'd put the mate on pigtails going to the rotary switch so that I could
reconnect the old device easily in a few seconds. I would use that same
style of connector to interface the control wires with an Ocelot control
system. "Plug compatible" as the old mainframers used to say.
Although the wall switches are low voltage, too, you've still got options
like in-line modules and socket rockets. The Ocelot and a relay control
module like the SECU16 interfaced to your main rotary controller(s) will
give you tremendous automation capability in terms of turning loads on and
off remotely according to rules.
The Ocelot controller is smart enough to interpret a rapid flick of the
old-style lightswitch as a request to enter dimming mode and to consider the
next two toggles within a period you define as requests to begin dimming and
end dimming. Whether that would work depends on whether the local switch
signal can be sensed at the remote multiswitches or not.
You might not even have to use an Ocelot if you can make a connector that
serves to keep all relays open and in the on state. Then, use the PLC
inline modules, socket rockets and wall outlets to control the house like
any other house with PLC equipment.
It sounds like your system is "once on, always on until turned off." If so,
perhaps removing the LV switches, shunting the wires to "always on" and
covering the switch plate with a "StickaSwitch" would be the way to go. You
should be able to revert easily if you want to. Yes, there's a tiny lag for
RF switching, but I understand they've deliberately put a time lag in UPB
hardwired switches (to wait for a double tap) so if you don't like the lag,
be careful what you chose instead.
If it isn't, you can get in-line modules, socket rockets and wall outlets
into the current system, they usually are already UL approved and not too
much of an issue for an inspector. Controlling them from an X-10 wireless
switch would give you dimming and light control.
While I agree that X-10's remiss in not have a single button, `1 unit RF
light switch (except the ugly panic button) my wife, who hated
StickaSwitches to begin with, has found them less objectionable recently.
That's because I re-arranged the lamp unit codes so that with three or four
buttons, she can turn on lights in her path before she turns off the lights
behind her from one location. And there was no cutting of plaster,
spreading of plaster dust or rewiring house circuitry. That's probably the
most important feature.
Bear in mind, this is all abstract information. The data I could find about
GELV is apparently about units installed in the early 90's. It sounds like
your unit is much older. I'd really want to run some multimeter and tone
tracer tests before I decided on how to proceed for real. There are lots of
ways they could have designed their relays so that advice concerning one
type might not be appropriate for other configurations.
--
Bobby G.
Marc_F_Hult
<ROBERT_G...@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
<gLWdnU-8JprsBlHZ...@rcn.net>:
>
>You won't be able to do *anything* that passes code without a schematic
>of the original installation and lots of time spent with a meter, a wire
>tracing set and a pen and paper.
Bobby's hypothetical hyperbolic hippo-speak here and later in this post
does the newsgroup and those that want assistance a disservice in my
opinion.
I've been modifying, updating, repairing, and restoring wiring in old
houses for 30 years and *never once* has an inspector asked to see a
schematic. Nor have I owned or heard of *any* old house that came with a
schematic.
>They are not likely to let you hook 110VAC devices to wires buried in
>walls they can't see, especially when there's a chance you may have
>inadvertently connected low power switches to 110VAX loads.
Apparently Bobby doesn't have much experience about what he writes, or he
wouldn't make such sweeping, misleading statements. (We know that he is
not purposefully being misleading, but the effect is still negative IMO.)
Last month (and on every other occasion I have had wiring inspected), the
inspector did exactly what Bobby said they are unlikely to do.
>That's why electrical inspections have to be done before the drywall goes
up.
You are referring to new construction. This is not new construction.
Rest of hippo-speak deleted.
Steve: I assuming that you want a long-term solution (not "hometoys").
The approach that I have used with respect to meeting National Electrical
Code in retrofits and remodeling of old homes in the US is to design a
prototype/example and present the prototype to a local electrical
inspector prior to installation. My experience has been that inspectors
can have good ideas that they are willing to share and so improve your
project or make it less expensive.
The National Electrical Code has become progressively more specific with
respect to low voltage residential wiring which reduces the variability in
judgment and opinions of inspectors. This is a Good Thing in my opinion,
because it makes it easier to design and install a system that is
code-compliant.
A change, pertinent to your needs, was incorporated in the 1999 and
subsequent editions that allows for low-voltage control wiring to enter a
switch box also containing 120VAC wiring for the purpose of lighting
control. I found out the hard way that getting an inspector to accept this
was a crap shoot prior to 1999. By now, competent inspectors know about
this important (to your application) clarification.
And increasingly inspectors have experience with a broad range of
low-voltage wiring. For example, the inspector that was at my house last
month for a final inspection of my kitchen remodeling recognized instantly
and without prompting that the 4-conductor w/ ground, 10AWG cable sticking
out from the ceiling was for future low voltage lighting and was not being
inspected on that trip. Five years ago, I would have gotten a lecture on
how 10 gauge wire was not code for lighting on a 15-amp circuit ;-)
At the risk of exhibiting perseverative behavior, let me repeat my advice
that you work in advance with the electrical inspector. S/he may very well
have good ideas that you can use particularly, if there are other houses
in your area with similar low-voltage wiring.
(I've mostly bread-boarded the INSTEON over low voltage wiring test that I
wrote about earlier in this thread. I'll use CAT5 and other wire as the
communicating wire, two UL-listed Class 2, 24volt, 20VA "doorbell"
transformers and four 0.22 ufd 250VAC capacitors removed as part of the
modification of 15amp, X10 PRO filters. Results to be posted to
www.ECOntrol.org/INSTEON0verCAT5.htm )
Marc_F_Hult
in message <44cc86ac....@nntp.fuse.net>:
But Dave lives in a commercial apartment building, not a private
residence, and different codes and norms apply.
The 3-story 1908-vintage stone Victorian house we owned for years had
nearly all the wire in heavy, threaded conduit/pipe. It used 12-gauge
wires with thick coal-tar insulation. For the day, it was the nec plus
ultra of wiring, not just "done properly". It was a carry-over of a
construction practice that was still in use for gas lighting, but today we
would consider that a wiring job that required two pipe wrenches to be a
it over the top except for ships or nuclear reactor or some such ....
By the 1980's both the copper and insulation had become brittle. It if
came out of the conduit during remodeling when one pulled, it seemed like
a good idea. If it broke, it was a nightmare. You could be trying to
improve some minor thing and end up with no lights or worse and need to
cut open the plaster lathe and start over all over.
... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.com
Marc_F_Hult
<MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
<u49oc25cfqaq4vfq4...@4ax.com>:
I set up a test jig with two INSTEON light switches (didn't have dimmers
available handily available but this is a test of INSTEON communication,
not output mode) interconnected using ) two UL-listed Class 2, 24volt,
20VA "doorbell"
transformers and four 0.22 ufd 250VAC capacitors removed as part of the
modification of 15amp, X10 PRO filters.
The connection worked without error using both ~200 feet CAT5 and ~200feet
22 awg round (untwisted) telephone wire.
I'll post some pictures and a schematic later to
www.ECOntrol.org/INSTEON0verCAT5.htm )
Steve Wechsler
> I set up a test jig with two INSTEON light switches (didn't have dimmers
> available handily available but this is a test of INSTEON communication,
> not output mode) interconnected using ) two UL-listed Class 2, 24volt,
> 20VA "doorbell"
> transformers and four 0.22 ufd 250VAC capacitors removed as part of the
> modification of 15amp, X10 PRO filters.
>
> The connection worked without error using both ~200 feet CAT5 and ~200feet
> 22 awg round (untwisted) telephone wire.
>
> I'll post some pictures and a schematic later to
> www.ECOntrol.org/INSTEON0verCAT5.htm )
(not up yet)
Marc, this is a good idea, but unfortunately I don't think I can use
it:
1. The switches are not installed in electric boxes, just frames
generally used for low voltage wiring. While this is not
insurmountable, more serious is that:
2. Doorbell transformers are way too large to fit in a single wall (or
ceiling) box.
I also have one other concern; namely: is there any mechanism in place
preventing high current from being sent over the low voltage wires (if
a short should develop in the switch) and causing it to act like a
heating coil? I'm not an electronics wiz by any stretch of the
imagination, so forgive me if this is me just showing my ignorance.
Someone else also suggested going back to the rotary controllers and
making all the connections there. Unfortunately, this won't work
either: I did some testing yesterday, and it appears that most lights
are NOT connected to these controllers (in fact, the only device that I
know for a fact is connected to that controller is our house fan, which
I'm planning to remove anyway)
So let me state a new question: is there any wireless system that
provides a small inline switching module combined with a wireless
single or dual switch? So far, all I'm seeing is these:
X10 Pro:
http://www.activehomepro.com/accessories/pro/xpdf_wa1_s.html
Insteon:
http://www.smarthome.com/2475d.html
Neither system, however, appears to sell a single stick-anywhere
switch. The X10 4-way would work in a pinch, I suppose, especially
since one of the four is a dimmer and the other two could be programmed
as macros...
Steve
Marc_F_Hult
wrote in message <1154369655....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>:
>Marc_F_Hult wrote:
>
>> I set up a test jig with two INSTEON light switches (didn't have dimmers
>> available handily available but this is a test of INSTEON communication,
>> not output mode) interconnected using ) two UL-listed Class 2, 24volt,
>> 20VA "doorbell"
>> transformers and four 0.22 ufd 250VAC capacitors removed as part of the
>> modification of 15amp, X10 PRO filters.
>>
>> The connection worked without error using both ~200 feet CAT5 and
~200feet
>> 22 awg round (untwisted) telephone wire.
>>
>> I'll post some pictures and a schematic later to
>> www.ECOntrol.org/INSTEON0verCAT5.htm )
>
>(not up yet)
>
>Marc, this is a good idea, but unfortunately I don't think I can use
>it:
>
>1. The switches are not installed in electric boxes, just frames
>generally used for low voltage wiring. While this is not
>insurmountable, more serious is that:
>2. Doorbell transformers are way too large to fit in a single wall (or
>ceiling) box.
Not actually a problem. These transformers are designed to mount _outside_
the junction box in the wall cavity with the AC leads inside the box and the
low voltage outside. They take up virtually no room inside the box.
>I also have one other concern; namely: is there any mechanism in place
>preventing high current from being sent over the low voltage wires (if
>a short should develop in the switch) and causing it to act like a
>heating coil? I'm not an electronics wiz by any stretch of the
>imagination, so forgive me if this is me just showing my ignorance.
See my second post to the other thread (INSTEON over CAT5; was etc)
The National Electrical Code is your friend. This legitimate concern is part
and parcel of what selecting a Class-2, current-limited, UL-listed
transformer does for you. If you have (as suspect) 18 gauge or larger wire
installed for the low voltage, shorting the transformer for too long may
burn it out, but the purpose of the code is to protect against fires and
electrocution and it does that very well.
>Someone else also suggested going back to the rotary controllers and
>making all the connections there. Unfortunately, this won't work
>either: I did some testing yesterday, and it appears that most lights
>are NOT connected to these controllers (in fact, the only device that I
>know for a fact is connected to that controller is our house fan, which
>I'm planning to remove anyway)
>
>So let me state a new question: is there any wireless system that
>provides a small inline switching module combined with a wireless
>single or dual switch? So far, all I'm seeing is these:
>
>X10 Pro:
>
>http://www.activehomepro.com/accessories/pro/xpdf_wa1_s.html
1) Not suitable for permanent, only control of lighting. And 2) you have no
good way of controlling it that does not depend on the X-10 protocol over
the powerlines *AND* X-10 wireless protocol. People tolerate the many
limitations/defects of X-10, because in general, one can resort to
_manually_ turning lights on and off even if signal propagation over the X10
protocol fails. But going X10 switchless using the inline, AND wireless and
would mean that you would be completely dependent on two problematic
protocols _in series_ which no knowledgeable and responsible person is
likely to recommend (IMO).
>
>Insteon:
>
>http://www.smarthome.com/2475d.html
Has no wireless switch capability at present.
>Neither system, however, appears to sell a single stick-anywhere
>switch. The X10 4-way would work in a pinch, I suppose, especially
>since one of the four is a dimmer and the other two could be programmed
>as macros...
A disaster waiting (not very long) to happen. See above.
We still don't know what your budget is. From your hints, it seems pointless
to discuss Zigbee, Zwave or anything other wireless because they all seem
beyond your budget.
My suggestion would be to try the INSTEON dimming option at one or two
locations where dimming would be most appreciated, and move the existing
relay parts from them to the locations where the relays are
problematic/worn-out.
That will cost about $65 per location (less labor) including a new switch
box (yes ;-), two INSTEON ICON dimmers, two small transformers and four
capacitors. See how that suits you in a couple of locations and take it from
there incrementally. Makes sense to wait until INSTEON settles some of its
early bugs in any case (but none that I am aware of should significantly
affect the small installation described here).
There are less expensive analog control dimmers that I have used and like,
but they are Vellemann (google this newsgroup and web) kits from Belgium and
do not have UL-or any other US approvals as best I know. Also, they use
unsealed/unprotected printed circuit board construction in contrast to the
fully potted Solid State Relay Crydom power controllers that I recommended
and that you found too expensive.
E. Lee Dickinson
"Steve Wechsler" <swec...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Neither system, however, appears to sell a single stick-anywhere
> switch. The X10 4-way would work in a pinch, I suppose, especially
> since one of the four is a dimmer and the other two could be programmed
> as macros...
I use one stick-a-switch in my house, on an exterior wall that has
absolutely no chance for having a wire pulled through it. The only way I
have been able to get any reliable use of this wireless RF switch has been
to put an X10 receiver in the outlet 3' from it. It does not work reliably
(about 50/50 for on/off, even worse when holding down the DIM button) in the
outlet (on the same circuit) 9' from it.
jmj...@msn.com
I've skimmed over the posts on this subject and wondered if you have
one or more lighting control centers? These are generally a small
metal can with a partition separating the low and high voltage
sections. In the GE installations I am familiar with all the lighting
loads were home run back to the control panel. The mechanical on/off
relays (RR7 etc) mounted in the partition with the low voltage leads on
one side and the high voltage connections on the other.
If your installation is similar perhaps you can remove all the relays
and install some multi-circuit dimmers like the PCS Scenemaster LM4 (UL
approved) which control 4 circuits (total 2000 watts) and is relatively
small in size (4x9"). Unfortunately I believe these are out of
production - so eBay may be your only resource for them. You might try
contacting www.pcslighting.com and see if they know of any units
available.
If this is possible, you can then use your low voltage switch wires
(existing switches) to signal inputs to an ADI Ocelot/Secu16I
combination, or Homevision type controller that can interpret switch
presses, double presses, hold, etc. and put x10 signals on your house
wiring accordingly. Because the x10 signal only needs to reach the LM4
which is just a few feet away I would expect 100% reliability. The
Homevision software has built-in functions to trap multiple keypresses
making implementation simple. The Ocelot can be a little slow on
reading the SECU16I inputs and is more tedious to program.
If you can make this work, it will be a clean and professional
installation that would likely not scare off the next homeowner and,
IMHO, not be in violation of any NEC or fire codes.
John
Robert Green
> Marc_F_Hult wrote:
>
> > I set up a test jig with two INSTEON light switches (didn't have dimmers
> > available handily available but this is a test of INSTEON communication,
> > not output mode) interconnected using ) two UL-listed Class 2, 24volt,
> > 20VA "doorbell"
> > transformers and four 0.22 ufd 250VAC capacitors removed as part of the
> > modification of 15amp, X10 PRO filters.
> >
> > The connection worked without error using both ~200 feet CAT5 and
~200feet
> > 22 awg round (untwisted) telephone wire.
> >
> > I'll post some pictures and a schematic later to
> > www.ECOntrol.org/INSTEON0verCAT5.htm )
>
> (not up yet)
>
> Marc, this is a good idea, but unfortunately I don't think I can use
> it:
>
> 1. The switches are not installed in electric boxes, just frames
> generally used for low voltage wiring. While this is not
> insurmountable, more serious is that:
> 2. Doorbell transformers are way too large to fit in a single wall (or
> ceiling) box.
I don't know where you live, Steve, but the inspectors I'm familiar with
would have a canary if you:
a) stripped out the existing low voltage controls for your (AFAIK) already
inspected and approved GE lighting system and then:
b) replaced them with an assortment of electronic switches designed and
labeled to operate at 110VAC but modified by you to operate at 20 to 24VAC,
and then:
c) connected these switches to doorbell transformers as well as adding:
d) four 0.22 ufd 250VAC capacitors via the existing, apparently
undocumented, GE low voltage multiconductor cabling.
My feelings about how the inspector would react is just a hunch, though,
even though it's based on things like inspectors failing an installation
just because the plug-in transformers don't say Class 2. He might not just
have a canary, he might give birth to a whole cow!
Perhaps if an inspector has previous experience with your house and great
faith in your skills, he will permit you to install the above equipment.
Maybe. Of course, if the inspector thinks you're a PITA, he might approve
your novel wiring scheme on the basis that some serious electrical shocks
might cause a personality improvement! (-:
> I also have one other concern; namely: is there any mechanism in place
> preventing high current from being sent over the low voltage wires (if
> a short should develop in the switch) and causing it to act like a
> heating coil? I'm not an electronics wiz by any stretch of the
> imagination, so forgive me if this is me just showing my ignorance.
It's a legitimate question and one the inspector's bound to concern himself
with. The National Electrical Code (NEC) abounds with rules concerning the
proper isolation of low voltage control wires from the 110 or 220VAC devices
they control. The issues in these cases are preventing electric shock as
well as keeping undersized (and perhaps unfused) low voltage wires from
carrying high voltage and starting a fire.
Connecting a device designed and labeled to operate on 110VAC as a low
voltage device would make an inspector very unhappy. Even IF you explained
you had wired it so the just the low voltage functions of the switch were in
operation. He would be especially reluctant to approve that "off label" use
if he got that idea that the switches you installed had already been found
to be defective. As you know, Smarthome has admitted to issues with those
Insteon switches and is modifying them before selling any more. Bearing
that "quiet recall" in mind, he's even LESS likely to permit the use of such
switches in a way substantially different than the manufacturer recommends.
> Someone else also suggested going back to the rotary controllers and
> making all the connections there.
That was me. I suggested splicing a connector out of the existing wiring
harness going to the master switch as a means to interface with the house
wiring from one place (and, restore it easily to its "premodification
status").
> Unfortunately, this won't work either: I did some testing
> yesterday, and it appears that most lights are NOT connected
> to these controllers (in fact, the only device that I
> know for a fact is connected to that controller is our house fan,
> which I'm planning to remove anyway)
Well, that sucks. It's hard to believe that they're not connected to
anything except the house fan. I wonder whether it was always that way or
whether a previous owner already performed some wiring surgery? I've
cross-posted this to AHR as well as CHA because AHR has a much greater
readership. Alt.Home.Repair also has a lot of electricians and very savvy
DIY's. They may have already figured out a way of upgrading the old GE LV
system that's in your house.
I really don't see any way of maintaining intellectual control over the
upgrade without spending some serious time with a fox and hound tracing set
and a multimeter. My experience in large cities and metro suburbs has been
that the inspector is not going to approve a rewiring job if he has reason
to believe you don't understand the existing wiring that you're modifying.
Yours, unfortunately, is not just a simple case of replacing existing
switches or fixtures. Those types of upgrades often don't even require a
permit in most jurisdictions, if done by the homeowner. However, that's not
you. You're contemplating a fundamental change in the wiring of your house.
The inspector will be very much on the lookout for modifications that have
the potential to shock or cause fires - and the running of 110VAC through
small gauge, low voltage wiring, even accidentally, is just asking for a
fire in the walls.
If you search Google for "electrical inspection requirements" among other
terms, you'll find that the more complex the rewiring and the less
traditional your replacement solution, the more inspectors will demand of
you in terms of wiring diagrams and demonstrations of proficiency in things
electrical.
Out in the boonies where the chance of an electrical fire burning down your
neighbor's house is small, they may look the other way and cheerfully let
you immolate yourself. The risks rise as buildings get closer and closer to
each other. Places like NYC and Chicago have *incredibly* stringent
electrical rules (way above what the NEC requires) because urban fires can
spread so quickly. In NYC, for example, you must use armored cable, not
Romex. The requirements become even more stringent in multifamily and
attached dwellings.
In most jurisdictions, the inspectors have final say. If you don't like it,
you don't get approved. If they don't believe you're skilled enough to do
what you propose or that your proposal is flawed, you won't get approved.
That's why I'm encouraging you to select a replacement that uses approved
components in an approved way (although it's something you already seem to
know well!). You don't want the inspector to condemn your house while
you're still living there!
> So let me state a new question: is there any wireless system that
> provides a small inline switching module combined with a wireless
> single or dual switch? So far, all I'm seeing is these:
>
> X10 Pro:
>
> http://www.activehomepro.com/accessories/pro/xpdf_wa1_s.html
>
> Insteon:
>
> http://www.smarthome.com/2475d.html
>
> Neither system, however, appears to sell a single stick-anywhere
> switch. The X10 4-way would work in a pinch, I suppose, especially
> since one of the four is a dimmer and the other two could be programmed
> as macros...
I believe that once you get used to the four position switches, you'll not
want to go back, especially if you program them in "walking order" so that
you can turn off the lights behind you and turn on the lights ahead of you
from the same switch. As you've already noted, you can also use the extra
buttons for macros and my hunch is that they will become far more useful
than you realize.
Does your breaker box look like a typical unit? Are there circuit breakers
that represent areas of the house or is there a breaker or output for each
separate load?
--
Bobby G.
Robert Green
> Steve,
>
> I've skimmed over the posts on this subject and wondered if you have
> one or more lighting control centers? These are generally a small
> metal can with a partition separating the low and high voltage
> sections. In the GE installations I am familiar with all the lighting
> loads were home run back to the control panel. The mechanical on/off
> relays (RR7 etc) mounted in the partition with the low voltage leads on
> one side and the high voltage connections on the other.
That would be great for what he wants since he could then do PLC system that
was wired like a Centralite system but was controllable through standard PLC
devices. It really doesn't matter whether the X-10 switch (actually, a
self-contained PLC triggered relay) is at the load or at the panel as long
as the load is the only one on that branch. I got the impression from
following some of the links, that there were several different incarnations
of this system. It would be nice to know more about the specifics or see
photos of Steve's installation. (Hint, hint, Steve!)
> If your installation is similar perhaps you can remove all the relays
> and install some multi-circuit dimmers like the PCS Scenemaster LM4 (UL
> approved) which control 4 circuits (total 2000 watts) and is relatively
> small in size (4x9"). Unfortunately I believe these are out of
> production - so eBay may be your only resource for them. You might try
> contacting www.pcslighting.com and see if they know of any units
> available.
If there is a central load controller, he will still be in good shape
because it might be possible to install fairly traditional X-10 inline
modules without worrying too much about size. Once again, I think he's got
to de-energize the system and spend some time tracing wires with a fox and
hound. I can't imagine completing such a refitting without a wiring tracer.
Until we have a better idea of what's there and how it connects, we could be
giving less-than-useful advice.
> If this is possible, you can then use your low voltage switch wires
> (existing switches) to signal inputs to an ADI Ocelot/Secu16I
> combination, or Homevision type controller that can interpret switch
> presses, double presses, hold, etc. and put x10 signals on your house
> wiring accordingly.
That was my thought as well. The low voltage switches would stay at low
voltage but the Ocelot changes those signals into X-10 commands for dimming
and controlling the various loads. I'm of the mind that the wiring could be
as simple as insulation piercing beanies attached to the existing wires and
"teaching" the Ocelot to interpret the output of a switch's state. Leave
the system controls as they are and have dimming accomplished by X-10
controllers.
It may be only me, but on the one light I do dim often, I'd rather doing it
sitting at my desk than at the wall switch. Who knows, his wife might even
tolerate a Stickaswitch stuck next to the original LV controls. (-:
Especially if you cross three or four big items off of your "honeydew" list
before you suggest it!
If Steve moves or tampers with the original switches too much, he could run
afoul of other electrical codes. I recall dad installing an oil burner
cutoff switch too low for an inspector's taste. Dad wanted to be able to
switch the unit while looking inside, the inspector said it had to be at a
standard height. Guess who won?
> Because the x10 signal only needs to reach the LM4
> which is just a few feet away I would expect 100% reliability. The
> Homevision software has built-in functions to trap multiple keypresses
> making implementation simple. The Ocelot can be a little slow on
> reading the SECU16I inputs and is more tedious to program.
I'm not familiar with Homevision but agree about the Ocelot. It would make
the most sense if you can indeed interface to the main GE controller easily.
I'd be tempted to use two Ocelots. One to handle the "autonomous" functions
of low-level operability of the "translator" and the other to run timed
macros, interpreted events, etc. If I had to characterize the most common
plea for help in ADI's CMAX forums, it always seems to go like this: "I
added something to my program and now everything's gone haywire."
> If you can make this work, it will be a clean and professional
> installation that would likely not scare off the next homeowner and,
> IMHO, not be in violation of any NEC or fire codes.
From what I read of Steve's previous comments, he values the "clean and
simple" approach in dealing with his upgrade. So, at least IME, do
inspectors.
--
Bobby G.
jmj...@msn.com
You can DL the Homevision software here: http://www.csi3.com/hv_p3.htm
and play with. I think you would be impressed. Then, you can DL this
3rd party software for the HV at: http://hv.tclcode.com/download.html
Tinker with the software and I'm sure you'll find some features you've
wished for with other systems.
Before the tornado took my house apart I was running HomevisionXL and
was exceedingly thrilled with it and the Homevision controller. I had
used an Ocelot for several years and always enjoyed excellent
reliabilty. My biggest reservation about recommending the Ocelot for
this application is the latency in response to inputs to the SECU16.
Through experience I can tell you the Homevision unit responds quickly
to it's inputs - it is an event driven controller. However, limiting
the existing switches to simple on/off, and using something like a
maxi-controller for dimming, the Ocelot could easily handle the task.
I have never actually "seen" one of the GE residential installations,
but I worked on one in a commercial installation many years ago. They
controlled the 277v lighting with the control centers - cans about 16"
x 16" - with the typical momentary dpdt switches. The latching relays
made it easy to install multi-way configurations to control any load
from many locations. Worked great on the fluorescent bay lighting we
installed, but lacking dimming I wouldn't care for it in my home.
I always enjoy reading the posts by Marc Hult - he's really a smart
fellow - but I couldn't help but grin when I read his elaborate
solution involving chime transformers in the walls. I can just imagine
explaining to a prospective purchaser how the lighting works ;-) If I
ever found myself marooned on a deserted island I would hope Marc would
be close by ;-)
I think the simplicity of the GE system would make the modifications
easy. A tone tracer and/or continuity checker could quickly identify
switch wires. Assuming adequate space in the existing cabinets there
should be nothing to it.
John
Steve Wechsler
Unfotunately, it's probably going to be a couple of weeks before I can
do a complete trace of all wiring. Here's what I know so far:
1) Wall switches are installed in frames embedded in plaster rather
than full electric boxes, and are horizontal (The frames are
horizontal, but the switches are vertical. This configuration is no
longer sold by GE). Most plates only have one switch installed, but
some have two or three.
2) Latching relays are installed inside ceiling boxes. Low voltage
wires do not enter the boxes directly, but instead enter the relays
through an entry in the side drilled through the box. There is no
central controller. Unswitched 120V wiring runs to each ceiling box.
3) There is three conductor low voltage wiring going from each switch
to the ceiling box that it controls. Some relays have more than one
switch controlling them.
4) All boxes have a two conductor wire for power from a central
transformer. The power wire is daisy chained.
5) Some relays have an additional wire running from them to a 9-way
remote rotary controller.
I guess what I was hoping was that there would be something like an
RS422 network that I could run on the existing wires. I may need to
back to those controllers that Marc mentioned (but unfortunately those
don't even provide for any automation).
Steve
Dave Houston
voltage wiring.
I don't think you will find any RS422 system but, if there is any
possibility that you can daisychain the low voltage switch locations, you
might want to investigate RS485 based systems like ONQ's ALC. There are a
few other RS485 based systems, but I think all will require daisychained (or
homerun) control wiring.
http://www.onqtech.com/
http://www.litetouch.com/
http://www.touchplate.com/
I believe Touchplate predates GE's system. They use a similar approach and
may have something more modern to adapt to what you have.
Marc_F_Hult
wrote in message <1154446694.3...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
>Wow, you guys are great!
>
>Unfotunately, it's probably going to be a couple of weeks before I can
>do a complete trace of all wiring. Here's what I know so far:
>
>1) Wall switches are installed in frames embedded in plaster rather
>than full electric boxes, and are horizontal (The frames are
>horizontal, but the switches are vertical. This configuration is no
>longer sold by GE). Most plates only have one switch installed, but
>some have two or three.
SOunds fine. Retrofitting a modern AC switch box if necessary would be
straightforward assuming stud construction and not plaster lathe over
brick or stone with negligible void behind the lather. (Chiseling out
brick to create space for new installations can get old, fast.)
>2) Latching relays are installed inside ceiling boxes. Low voltage
>wires do not enter the boxes directly, but instead enter the relays
>through an entry in the side drilled through the box. There is no
>central controller. Unswitched 120V wiring runs to each ceiling box.
It might turn out to be useful that the National Electrical Code has
changed so that low-voltage can enter box with AC. As you know, "your
mission" is to determine is to whether each AC load is "home-runned" to
the entrance box or not. If they are, you could install the very best
hard-wired system for lighting automation for the cost of what others lay
out for kludged stuff over power lines or RF.
>3) There is three conductor low voltage wiring going from each switch
>to the ceiling box that it controls. Some relays have more than one
>switch controlling them.
Yes, That hasn't changed.
>4) All boxes have a two conductor wire for power from a central
>transformer. The power wire is daisy chained.
By "all" I assume you mean both the wall switch and the ceiling, right?
>5) Some relays have an additional wire running from them to a 9-way
>remote rotary controller.
>
>I guess what I was hoping was that there would be something like an
>RS422 network that I could run on the existing wires. I may need to
>back to those controllers that Marc mentioned (but unfortunately those
>don't even provide for any automation).
Key here to using RS-485 (assuming that power to the relays in not
home-runned, because were that the case you would have other, better
options) is the topology of the "two conductor wire for power from a
central transformer .. .[which] ... is daisy chained."
If it is truly daisy-chained (connected serially, one after another, with
no branches, or spurs) RS-485 control of dimmers in the ceiling is a good
possibility.
Even if it isn't the perfect topology to begin with, it might still be
coaxed into working for RS-485 (depending in part on baud rate) with a
combination of judicious rearrangement (removal of spurs and other
non-daisy-chain segments) and use of a electronics to buffer the RS-485
signal and split the line into segments.
Elk makes a ELK-M1DBHR M1 Data Bus Hub For Retrofit
http://www.elkproducts.com/products/m1/M1_Data_Bus_Hubs.htm (bottom half
of page)
that is designed to retrofit non-twisted and star wiring to meet RS-485
twisted pair and daisy chain topology. Might be jist the ticket. You would
install one where the transformer is now. Is the 2-conductor low-voltage
power wire twisted (as in "twisted pair")?. Lots of old 3-conductor
phone wire in my other houses has been twisted and would have worked great
for RS-485.
If you can clean up the signals enough to use RS-485 (depending on baud
rate too) there are numerous options including DMX512 (aka DMX-512 = the
world's standard for dimmed lighting in theatres, stage, music venues
etc). Or Leviton/NSI Luma-Net (I use both of these) or one of the several
other struggling _proprietary_ systems that are "out there" that someone
is sure to suggest (from the frying pan to the ... ;-)
Keep us posted .. Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
sonod...@gmail.com
You can get replacement relays for the system. They are General Electric RR-series. The system I have uses RR-7 relays (single pole).
Here are some examples (note the varying prices for them) - I have no financial interest in any of these suppliers:
https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/ge-rr7-low-voltage-remote-control-relay-switch/
https://www.kele.com/lighting-controls/rr-7,-rr-9.aspx
http://www.galesburgelectric.com/ge-rr7-20a-spst-low-voltage-relay-total-lighting-control/
Just Google RR-7 relay and you will get quite a few hits.
One thing I have thought of is that each low-voltage switch is basically a momentary contact, single pole-double throw switch. Any low-resistance connection across the common and one of the wires will close the circuit to the relay and open or close it. I have wanted timers (yes, I know home automation can centralize this) on some of the outside lights, but these are on the relays. If I wired in an SPDT timer, it should work fine. My thought was to put a jack on the wallplate that parallels the three conductors - I could plug in a timer module into that when needed.
Anyway, if you want to keep the original system, replacement relays (and mounting panels) are available. Some of the new mounting panels (GE "Smart Sweep") allow for home automation interfaces and still use the RR-series relays. These panels are fairly expensive, though. There are also replacements for the wall switches - some with lighting and some keyed. The suppliers who sell GE lighting products should have all these.
We now have a mix of direct wired and low-voltage relay switched outlets and lighting. Very fortunately, the house was wired with copper grounded cabling, so all the outlets, even the original ones (though the ground went to the box with a two-prong outlet). I replaced those with three-prong, grounded outlets and checked them all for proper hot-neutral wiring and grounding.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Steve Horii