Pool Heat Automation Suggestions
Richard Kaplan
operate year-round in a fairly cold climate (Pennsylvania). The pool
has both an electric heat pump and a natural gas heater.
I would like to automate the operation of the pool's heating system so
that the automated system can:
(1) Change valves between the heat pump and natural gas heater
depending on outside temperature
(2) Operate the heat pump whenever it is warm outside in order to
efficiently store energy in the pool
(3) Operate the natural gas heater only when the pool water falls below
a given threshold
(4) Log data regarding how many hours per day the heat pump and gas
heater operate
(5) Let me control/monitor the system via an Internet link
Any suggestions regarding what system might accomplish this? I am
particularly interested in a system which can be fairly sophisticated
in terms of the algorithm I may use to decide which heat source is
operational and for how long.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Si Ballenger
You probably need to provide the details of the equiment and how
these actions are currently performed.
Robert L Bass
news:46f2b4fd$0$16353$8826...@free.teranews.com...
Intermatic makes communicating (i.e., controllable) swimming pool
automation systems. They use Z-Wave which is a popular automation
communications protocol. The controllers can select and operate the
appropriate pumps, heaters, etc., based on temperature conditions,
least cost (time of day), etc. They can also be operated by
comprehensive HA systems such as ELK-M1G, Homeseer, etc.
Another posted suggested you provide more information on the systems
you plan to implement. He's right, of course. In order to specify
an appropriate controller we'd need a little more information.
However, you can find information on ELK Products and Intermatic at
the manufacturers' websites here:
Intermatic:
http://www.intermatic.com/images/catalog/300PS10168-LR.pdf
HomeSeer:
http://www.homeseer.com
Elk Products:
http://www.elkproducts.com/products/m1/elk-m1.htm
There are numerous other manufacturers with their own solutions.
Each has supporters and detractors. Arguments over which is the
better HA protocol tend to take on religious fervor at times. I
mention the above as a place to start your research -- not as though
it's the only approach I might consider. Since I'm an ELK Products
dealer and since I also sell Z-Wave products, naturally I have a
slight bias in favor of them. However, I've chosen them because I
believe in them. I'm installing an ELK-M1G system in my own home and
I plan to use it to control my swimming pool and spa, among other
things. Though the pool is probably smaller than yours, it's still
large enough that I need to optimize the controls. We have a solar
heating system but I plan to add an electric or propane auxiliary
heater for those frigid days of winter when the temperature drops
below 60ºF in Sarasota. :^)
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
Robert L Bass
>
> The systems I would like to connect are:
>
> * Hayward H350 Natural gas heater
Hayward heaters have, among other things, an on/off/on rocker switxh
which allows you to manually switch between pool, spa or none. Talk
to the contractor or retailer if you're installing the Hayward
yourself to see if you can't parallel this with relay outputs from
your own controller. If you do it this way, provide a second switch
or relay that will interrupt control from your HA system in the event
the HA is down. That way the system will run stand alone while
you're working on the HA system.
> * Heat Siphon electric heat pump (currently I have the analog model
> though I understand an upgrade is available to support a digital
> interface)
Some of these can be triggered with a contact closure. If you can
get the make/model that would help. Upgrading to digital might be a
waste if you plan to operate the system using an HA system which will
provide all the necessary logic.
> * Electric pool pump (perhaps I need to control this so I can turn
> it off when valves are being changed)
Yep. Also, make sure the pump will run continuously during
sub-freezing temperatures in case the heating systems ever fail.
> * 3 valves which control the flow of water between the electric
> heat pump and the gas heater
Have you looked into an auxiliary solar heater? While Pennsylvania
gets less sun than Florida it may still more than pay for itself,
especially with rising fuel/electricity charges.
> * On/off switch to a recirculator pump which heats the interior of
> the dome by circulating water from a home water heater
Again, this is trivial to control with almost any HA system. I don't
want to sound like a broken record about ELK Products, but their
ELK-M1G system has an advantage over several other popular lines.
Any of the inputs can be analog, allowing the system to read
temperatures from remote probes to make comparison-based choices as
to which heaters, pumps, valves, etc., should be on. Our pool & spa
automation system currently uses solar but I plan to add either an
electric or gas heater for winter (when temperatures drop below
70ºF)... :^)
Richard Kaplan
> Hayward heaters have, among other things, an on/off/on rocker switxh
> which allows you to manually switch between pool, spa or none. Talk to
> the contractor or retailer if you're installing the Hayward yourself to
> see if you can't parallel this with relay outputs from your own
> controller. If you do it this way, provide a second switch or relay
> that will interrupt control from your HA system in the event the HA is
> down.
Yes, the Hayward heater does have a digital interface with these
controls as you mentioned.
Can you suggest finding someone to help selecting/specifying components
to achieve this? I am very knowledgable about
engineering/electronics/networking but I have very little pool-specific
knowledge. I have lots of confidence in my pool contractor but he has
not done any HA projects in the past and I really doubt there are any
other contractors with that experience in my area. What I want to try
to avoid is self-selecting components and then not having thought of
some pool-specific issues such as you mentioned here.
Free free to reply to me via email if that is easier. Does your
company only do installations or do you sell components as well?
> Some of these can be triggered with a contact closure. If you can get
> the make/model that would help. Upgrading to digital might be a waste
> if you plan to operate the system using an HA system which will provide
> all the necessary logic.
It is an SX5HP - See here:
http://www.heatsiphon.com/2006website/pickyourmodel/5model.specs.html
> Yep. Also, make sure the pump will run continuously during
> sub-freezing temperatures in case the heating systems ever fail.
Maybe this is a dumb question - but why? Wouldn't I wind up lowering
the pool water temperature in that case and making the problem worse?
On the other hand, another concern I do have is what happens if the
valves fail and I am stuck with say the inflow going into my gas heater
but the outflow coming from the heat pump. Might that result in a high
pressure situation on the inflow side and burst the plumbing? What
sort of high-pressure fail-safe can I install which works either
electronically or mechanically?
> Have you looked into an auxiliary solar heater? While Pennsylvania
> gets less sun than Florida it may still more than pay for itself,
> especially with rising fuel/electricity charges.
It is a good idea but the pool has a northern exposure with lots of
shade from a 3.5 story house - solar effects will be negligible.
> Again, this is trivial to control with almost any HA system. I don't
> want to sound like a broken record about ELK Products, but their
> ELK-M1G system has an advantage over several other popular lines.
OK I am all ears - what does this do that others don't? How can I
review the documentation to get a sense of what the interface looks
like from which I can program the operating logic of the system?
Richard Kaplan
> Again, this is trivial to control with almost any HA system. I don't
> want to sound like a broken record about ELK Products, but their
> ELK-M1G system has an advantage over several other popular lines.
Can you suggest a good article or website or book which compares ELK
with its competitors?
Marc_F_Hult
wrote in message <46f58707$0$26478$8826...@free.teranews.com>:
>On 2007-09-22 15:21:37 -0400, "Robert L Bass" <Rober...@verizon.net>
said:
>
>> Again, this is trivial to control with almost any HA system. I don't
>> want to sound like a broken record about ELK Products, but their
>> ELK-M1G system has an advantage over several other popular lines.
>
>Can you suggest a good article or website or book which compares ELK
>with its competitors?
By far the best comparison I know of is at S.E.T Inc (SETNET).
www.setnetpro.com/controllers.asp
"AUTOMATION CONTROLLERS Feature, Benefits, Hardware and Software For: HAI
Omni; LT, IIe, Pro II Elk Products; EZ8, M1Gold OnQ Legrand; HMS 800, 950e,
1100 "
It may not be 100% current, but is extremely comprehensive.
The company also offers courses on various panels which might be of
interest. These folks have been in the business for a long time and know
the ins and outs of HA panels and accessories based on real-world
experience as the industry and options developed.
... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
Robert L Bass
>
> Yes, the Hayward heater does have a digital interface with these
> controls as you mentioned.
>
> Can you suggest finding someone to help selecting/specifying
> components to achieve this? I am very knowledgable about
> engineering/electronics/networking but I have very little
> pool-specific knowledge. I have lots of confidence in my pool
> contractor but he has not done any HA projects in the past and I
> really doubt there are any other contractors with that experience
> in my area. What I want to try to avoid is self-selecting
> components and then not having thought of some pool-specific issues
> such as you mentioned here.
Your concern is a legitimate one. If I get the installation manuals
for the specific units you want I can help with the automation but
I'm not a swimming pool contractor. I hired a company to redo my
pool last year and (with a fair amount of prodding) they did a good
job. However, they had no clue about HA systems. I had to figure
all that out for myself. Fortunately, the valves and almost all
other components are controlled by switched 24VAC so interfacing it
to the ELK-M1G is simple.
It will be interesting developing the site specific part of my
project, which includes choosing which, if any heater to activate and
when to throw which valves. That part isn't difficult; just requires
some thought and a few phone calls to tech support.
> Free free to reply to me via email if that is easier. Does your
> company only do installations or do you sell components as well?
I prefer to share here. Others may get some useful ideas from you
and vice versa. Once in a while I even post something useful. :^)
We don't do installations at all. I'm an online vendor. My web
store sells this stuff. You're welcome to browse and ask any
questions you like. There are actually hundreds of companies selling
these systems online...
I'll have to answer the rest of your post later. My wife is calling
me to get ready. We're having a little party tonight to celebrate my
birthday. There are about 110 people due in the next hour or so.
I'll try to get back to you tomorrow.
Richard Kaplan
> Your concern is a legitimate one. If I get the installation manuals
> for the specific units you want I can help with the automation but I'm
> not a swimming pool contractor. I hired a company to redo my pool last
> year and (with a fair amount of prodding) they did a good job.
> However, they had no clue about HA systems. I had to figure all that
> out for myself. Fortunately, the valves and almost all other
> components are controlled by switched 24VAC so interfacing it to the
> ELK-M1G is simple.
OK if you would prefer to work out the specs on the group here that's
fine too - I'd still be glad to buy the system from you if you can help
me to select them.
It seems to me even as a fairly technolog-addicted person, there is a
huge world out there of home automation components but the details can
get hard to integrate with something as mission-critical as a pool. If
you had to work at integrating a pool in Florida (as a vendor yourself
no less) then the odds of my finding someone with such experience for a
year-round Pennsylvania pool are pretty small.
Disco
Robert Green
> then the odds of my finding someone with such experience for a
> year-round Pennsylvania pool are pretty small.
They are if you don't search at all. (-: Don't give up so quickly.
There are some serious advantages to using local contractors. Experience
with local codes and the AHJ - (authority having jurisdiction) is worth an
awful lot. Especially when dealing with something likely to involve three
code sensitive areas (plumbing, electrical and gas) working together under
unattended control. You don't want to find out your local authority has a
particular gripe against something you might select. You'd be surprised at
how many pool contractors are "home automation smart." The X-10 protocol
analyzer that's often mentioned here:
http://www.homecontrols.com/cgi-bin/main/co_disp/displ/carfnbr/53/sesent/00
(as well as a lot of other pool automation equipment) was designed by a pool
contractor.
Another reason to at least try to find a local contractor is that you may
want to have someone maintain and service it. I've found over the years
that presenting an installer with equipment you got elsewhere usually
doesn't inspire them to take "ownership" of the project. Anything that goes
wrong is likely to be blamed on the gear they felt was forced on them. A
bad pool install can present some pretty lethal hazards, too. Carbon
monoxide poisoning and electrocution lead the list for an installation that
uses a gas heater.
Get the smarts you need from the many pool owner/automators here and in
other groups and then use that knowledge to find a local contractor who
knows all the HA buzzwords they should. If that search fails, then at least
look for someone who can implement your plan and get it past inspection in
your jurisdiction.
Try Worthington Distribution. Like you, they are in Pennsylvania and some
would say they're the biggest HA outlet on the East Coast.
They have an 800 number and you can probably get the name of a highly
qualified home automation-savvy pool contractor as they sell a lot of pool
automation gear. Ask for Rich. (800) 949-6255
No financial interest other than as a satisfied customer of Worthington's.
--
Bobby G.
Richard Kaplan
>
> Intermatic:
> http://www.intermatic.com/images/catalog/300PS10168-LR.pdf
>
> HomeSeer:
> http://www.homeseer.com
>
> Elk Products:
> http://www.elkproducts.com/products/m1/elk-m1.htm
I went through these manuals and I must be missing something but I
cannot see where I can buy a thermostat.
Let's say I want to start with a simple but expandable automation
system which simply serves as a programmable remote thermostat for my
pool's gas heater. The gas heater provides instructions for how to
connect a 2-wire remote theremostat.
Where do I buy a 2-wire remote thermostat which works with the ELK-M1G?
What else do I need beyond the ELK-M1G and the remote thermostat?
Richard Kaplan
> Where do I buy a 2-wire remote thermostat which works with the ELK-M1G?
> What else do I need beyond the ELK-M1G and the remote
OK let me try to think outloud and answer my own question after some
more research. Maybe I am making this much more complex than need be
to get started.
Am I correct that I can simply buy a Z-Wave thermostat like the
following and use it standalone to get this fundamental interface to
the pool working and then step-by-step I can choose to add an ELK-M1G
with Z-wave interface, then add Ethernet to the ELK, etc, etc.? So
maybe I want to just break down the project step by step to learn how
it works and increase the complexity of the system?
http://www.smarthome.com/1266t.html
Frank Olson
> Try Worthington Distribution. Like you, they are in Pennsylvania and some
> would say they're the biggest HA outlet on the East Coast.
>
> www.worthdist.com/
>
> They have an 800 number and you can probably get the name of a highly
> qualified home automation-savvy pool contractor as they sell a lot of pool
> automation gear. Ask for Rich. (800) 949-6255
>
> No financial interest other than as a satisfied customer of Worthington's.
>
> --
> Bobby G.
There latest "e-newsletter" features Napco Security products at some
great prices too. And they always answer their phone. ;-)
Dave Houston
>There latest "e-newsletter" features Napco Security products at some
>great prices too.
Well, yeah, but they price things in those cheap American dollars. ;-)
Frank Olson
It's going to be really interesting in the next few months. I've
observed (over the course of several years) that pricing of security,
fire alarm, and computer related products is actually a bit better on
this side of the border (even considering the past larger disparity in
the dollar). I could, for instance pick up a 12 volt 8 AH battery
(sealed lead acid type) for less than $9.00 Canadian when the Canadian
Dollar was worth less than $.80 US. Even adding a "modest 30 percent
markup", I can still blow the doors off a lot of online vendors.
Hmmmm... Come to think of it... :-)
Robert L Bass
> following and use it standalone to get this fundamental interface
> to the pool working and then step-by-step I can choose to add an
> ELK-M1G with Z-wave interface, then add Ethernet to the ELK, etc,
> etc.? So maybe I want to just break down the project step by step
> to learn how it works and increase the complexity of the system?
Yes, you are correct, except that the linked product is actually the
now discontinued RCS model. It can be simpler than that, however.
You can install ELK-M1ZTSR modules and connect them to the ELK-M1G
controller. Where the pump / light / heater controls are add an
ELK-M1XIN input expander and ELK-M1RB relay board. You can read
temperatures as well as light, valve, pump and heater operating
status into the ELK-M1XIN as dry contact or analog (0-10V) inputs.
You can operate everything via relays on the ELK-M1RB. The input
board has 16 zones and the relay board has 8 outputs. You can have
multiple boards as needed. They all connect to the M1G control via a
single CAT5 cable.
The relays on the M1RB are rated for 10A @ 125VAC or 7A @ 30VDC. To
control heavy loads you can use an ELK-9100 or any high-current
contactor from another manufacturer.
Richard Kaplan
> Yes, you are correct, except that the linked product is actually the
> now discontinued RCS model. It can be simpler than that, however. You
> can install ELK-M1ZTSR modules and connect them to the ELK-M1G
> controller. Where the pump / light / heater controls are add an
> ELK-M1XIN input expander and ELK-M1RB relay board. You can read
> temperatures as well as light, valve, pump and heater operating status
> into the ELK-M1XIN as dry contact or analog (0-10V) inputs. You can
> operate everything via relays on the ELK-M1RB. The input board has 16
> zones and the relay board has 8 outputs. You can have multiple boards
> as needed. They all connect to the M1G control via a single CAT5 cable.
Am I correct that this is basically the equivalent of a do-it-yourself
thermostat?
And as a result if I do this then the operation of my pool heating
system becomes dependent upon my having a functioning ELK-M1G system?
If so, that seems like a reliability risk. It seemed to me that beauty
of the RCS device was that it was a freestanding thermostat; if the
rest of my home automation system crashed I could just keep using the
thermostats manually.
Why was the RCS device discontinued?
Robert L Bass
>> the now discontinued RCS model. It can be simpler than that,
>> however. You can install ELK-M1ZTSR modules and connect them to
>> the ELK-M1G controller. Where the pump / light / heater controls
>> are add an ELK-M1XIN input expander and ELK-M1RB relay board. You
>> can read temperatures as well as light, valve, pump and heater
>> operating status into the ELK-M1XIN as dry contact or analog
>> (0-10V) inputs. You can operate everything via relays on the
>> ELK-M1RB. The input board has 16 zones and the relay board has 8
>> outputs. You can have multiple boards as needed. They all
>> connect to the M1G control via a single CAT5 cable.
>
> Am I correct that this is basically the equivalent of a
> do-it-yourself thermostat?
No. The preferred approach is to have each subsystem capable of
working in stand-alone mode. Particularly in northern states it is
important that heaters run with or without the HA system. The HAI,
RCS and Aprilaire models all meet this requirement. The same
approach would apply to the pool control system.
> Why was the RCS device discontinued?
I don't know. Probably low sales volume. The entire HVAC industry
has been in a slump with housing starts down. Have you looked at the
Aprilaire thermostat yet? Some of my customers are using it with the
ELK system. The manufacturer's website has extensive documentation.
Here's a URL:
http://www.aprilairecontractor.com/ha_automatedHVAC.aspx
Richard Kaplan
> I don't know. Probably low sales volume. The entire HVAC industry has
> been in a slump with housing starts down. Have you looked at the
> Aprilaire thermostat yet? Some of my customers are using it with the
> ELK system. The manufacturer's website has extensive documentation.
> Here's a URL:
> http://www.aprilairecontractor.com/ha_automatedHVAC.aspx
The link requires a password.
In the general public area, I couldn't figure out what communication
technology this uses nor could I see a water temperature probe offered
- did I miss those?
Robert L Bass
Sorry. Call and I'll get you in.
Richard Kaplan
>> The link requires a password.
>
> Sorry. Call and I'll get you in.
How does this help them to keep away potential customers? Why not make
the information freely available?
Robert L Bass
>>
>> Sorry. Call and I'll get you in.
>
> How does this help them to keep away potential customers? Why not
> make the information freely available?
It's a holdover from the alarm industry. Most alarm dealers don't
like to share info on how things work with their customers. They
fear that a knowledgeable customer will find it easy to switch
providers. Manufacturers are somewhat swayed by their wishes since
dealers are their biggest customers. ELK does give you access once
you buy your own panel.
Richard Kaplan
> It's a holdover from the alarm industry. Most alarm dealers don't like
> to share info on how things work with their customers. They fear that
> a knowledgeable customer will find it easy to switch providers.
There are no words to say how much that turns me off as a prospective customer.
Robert L Bass
>
>> It's a holdover from the alarm industry. Most alarm dealers don't
>> like to share info on how things work with their customers. They
>> fear that a knowledgeable customer will find it easy to switch
>> providers.
>
> There are no words to say how much that turns me off as a
> prospective customer.
Me too. Unfortunately, it's pretty much universal. ELK Products is
one of the few manufacturers that even tries to help DIY end users.
Honeywell, Napco, DSC, GE Security and Bosch will refuse to help if
you call tech support. They won't even help if they realize it's a
3-way call with the end user on the line. ELK tries to walk a fine
line -- supporting DIY and trying not to offend alarm dealers.
In any event, it's not a problem since they do provide after sale
access to the "dealer" website and they will help if you ask. They
*prefer* that you ask one of their online retailers for assistance
though since there are a limited number of people in tech support.
It's our job as dealers to give tech support to end users but if we
run into a problem it's good knowing they won't leave us (or you) in
the lurch.
pwate...@gmail.com
> I recently built an inground/outdoor covered pool which I intend to
> operate year-round in a fairly cold climate (Pennsylvania). The pool
> has both an electric heat pump and a natural gas heater.
>
> I would like to automate the operation of the pool's heating system so
> that the automated system can:
>
> (1) Change valves between the heat pump and natural gas heater
> depending on outside temperature
> (2) Operate the heat pump whenever it is warm outside in order to
> efficiently store energy in the pool
> (3) Operate the natural gas heater only when the pool water falls below
> a given threshold
> (4) Log data regarding how many hours per day the heat pump and gas
> heater operate
> (5) Let me control/monitor the system via an Internet link
>
> Any suggestions regarding what system might accomplish this? I am
> particularly interested in a system which can be fairly sophisticated
> in terms of the algorithm I may use to decide which heat source is
> operational and for how long.
>
>
>
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Thomas A.
NQLink Provide both connection Local IP and Outside IP or domain name with one account for all devices: Controller, Hi-Fi2, Music Sever, Camera. App automatically looking for available connection every time. if you switch your phone between Local wifi to cellular data network, NQLink automatically switch connection also.
NQLink can run in background and start with your phone reboot to give you option notification on system such as: Security Mode, Lighting changed state .,etc.
NQLink Supported widget for function, GEO Fencing based on GPS Technology, Camera JPEG, MJPEG and RTSP H264/H265 format.
Feature:
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* Two connections Local IP and Domain name (Outside IP) supported
* Looking for available connection automatically
* Notification option for report system event
* GPS GEO Fencing function
* Voice control supported (Require Internet connection)
* Supported HAI Music Gateway and Music Server
* Supported Hi-Fi2 Equalizer Setting
* Control light and Appliance.
* Security management.
* Air Conditioner Management
* Multi Room Hi-Fi2 Audio system.
* Macro Button Control
* User Setting
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* Camera JPEG, MJPEG and RTSP H264/H265 format.
* Press and hold Item desire to Re-name (Please enable Display as list in Account setting)
Comercial version:
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