The problems with X10 ...
accidental plumber
as they are, there won't be god knows how many abandoned modules around
the globe. On top of that, the company is one of the most hated
company online. I hope this is the first of a serious of articles of
my rantings about X10, the protocol and the company.
Like most users, I brought a kit for the price, tried it and felt that
it was cool. When I committed to it and expanded to the whole house,
it became another infamous haunted house. There's no way you can make
the X10 products work reliably from the product literatures from
x10.com. I had many light switches and modules, three RF transceivers,
a full security system with two PIR detectors and many door/window
modules. Also I have several cameras controlled by DC adapters from
X10. I kept on adding to the system but at the same time part or most
of the system are abandoned.
The many troubleshooting guides on the net doesn't help much. They are
rarely written by Electronics Engineers. Anyway, I started around 1999
so there wasn't that much information around. Well, who will get into
X10 if they know they need to install another box at the distribution
box or consumer box, to block out noise and potential interference from
neighbors using x10? And they need one isolator or blocker for any
electronic equipments including DC adapters for phone chargers? And
then a 3-phase coupler for most houses. And a coupler and repeater if
you have a large house. How about the new RF transceiver that listen
to all possible house codes and can generate a log for the ghost
activities? And a pair of testers at $100?
But if I were to do it all over again, it will still be X10. A total
wireless system is still too expensive; every module has to have a
receiver that is more complicated than the x10 crap. Modules are
selling about 1/3 on eBay compared to the x10 website. After 7 years,
everything still works, though not together. Despite all the hype, I
think I only need one blocker/isolator for the main TV and the
electronics around it to solve the reliability problem. The price is
some $10 on eBay?
Though my system will still be based on x10, but I would have mixed in
a lot of other components. For example, for rarely opened and
difficult to enter windows, I would use a small independent alarm which
could be as cheap as a few dollars. The x10 cameras are crap, which
also need short line of sight reception to be non-irritating. More for
the next message.
Jim
If you buy cheap, you get cheap.
accidental plumber
alternative you suggest?
X10 is an open standard and perhaps the only one with 2nd source. The
price cannot be bad. All carrier line signaling systems suffers
similar problems. The wireless standard is still fairly new and hardly
any components on sale on the net. It cost a fortune now. Wireless
systems can be jammed easily unless for a spread spectrum system, which
make it harder, but not much harder when the intruders can get close to
the receiver.
X10 is the pioneer of using Chinese factories. Who doesn't nowadays?
Just that the other system prices don't reflect the crap manufacturing
price and pass on the savings. I don't see what a properly installed
X10 system can't do when other systems can. It's all about objectives
and the minimum cost to get it done, and no more.
Thack
performance, durability and overall quality is crap. BUT - there is simply
no other product that provides X10-like functionality. It must be wonderful
to have an entire marketplace to yourself for years, but it certainly
doesn't encourage quality improvements.
Jim said "buy cheap, get crap". The trouble is, you can't buy expensive,
good quality X10 if you try. (At least, not that I know of).
If someone were to market a competitive product with the same functionality
as X10 but proper reliability and durability, I'd switch over to it
tomorrow.
Having said all that, once I'd weeded out all the rubbish modules and got
down to a set that seems to work and keep working, I've had reasonably good
service. There are still switching failures (a device doesn't respond to an
event sent by the CM12), but it's not like I'm running someone's life
support system off it.
And don't get me started on the CM12!! It's a shameful piece of rubbish
which should have been sorted out years ago.
Thack
Robert L Bass
Since X10's patent ran out many years ago there are now lots of competing brands using the same technology.
> The reliability, performance, durability and overall quality
> is crap. BUT - there is simply no other product that
> provides X10-like functionality. It must be wonderful to have an entire marketplace to yourself for years, but
> it certainly doesn't encourage quality improvements.
Look around. There are lots of options. The problem IMO is not just poor quality from X10 brand. The medium itself (powerline
carrier) is rife with problems such as line noise, interference, signal loss, etc. There are ways to deal with each of these
problems and, from what others who tinker with it enough have said, it can be made to work semi-reliably as a home automation
add-on.
Unfortunately, X10 security hardware is not reliable enough to meet the demands of a professional security installation. Most of
the participants in ASA are not home automators. Their exposure to X10 is usually with the toy-like X10 alarms so there's not much
respect for it here.
> Jim said...
Pay no attention to Jiminex.
> If someone were to market a competitive product
> with the same functionality as X10 but proper
> reliability and durability, I'd switch over to it tomorrow.
A few people in another newsgroup have spoken well of Insteon, which claims to be the next better thing than X10. Unfortunately,
Insteon also seems to be problematic. There are other, more robust HA solutions on the market that still qualitfy as DIY-capable
and won't break the bank. A search on Zwave may prove interesting.
> Having said all that, once I'd weeded out all
> the rubbish modules and got down to a set that
> seems to work and keep working, I've had
> reasonably good service. There are still
> switching failures (a device doesn't respond to
> an event sent by the CM12), but it's not like
> I'm running someone's life support system off it.
Your results are not unlike many others we've seen.
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
coord
"Thack" <th...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:w7-dnaCHpYFXxtbY...@bt.com...
INSTEON is starting to look as though economically it will be a direct competitor...few bugs
still being sorted out but most seem to be simple QC issues....I can tell you that from my
perspective it is extremely reliable signalwise.
Thack
Since X10's patent ran out many years ago there are now lots of competing
brands using the same technology.
<<
Ah, thanks, I stand corrected. Here in the UK the choice seems pretty
limited, and it doesn't seem possible to tell who the manufacturer is for
most of the stuff. To be honest, I think most of the resellers are selling
original X10.com products.
Thack
Beachcomber
>> Thack
>
>INSTEON is starting to look as though economically it will be a direct competitor...few bugs
>still being sorted out but most seem to be simple QC issues....I can tell you that from my
>perspective it is extremely reliable signalwise.
>
>
Bugs? Complaining about X10 and Insteon reliability is liking
complaining about the laws of physics.
These wire-carrier signal devices are a cheap solution to a problem.
In brief, you don't have to rip out the walls or pay an electrician to
put in a light switch where it should have been in the first place.
I have a few X10 units in my house and they work 99.95% of the time.
They control a few remote lights and I use appliance modules to power
up my computers since a few of these are in out-of-the-way places.
I would never rely on these for a critical burglar alarm or fire
detection system, however.
Beachcomber
sylvan butler
> most of the stuff. To be honest, I think most of the resellers are selling
> original X10.com products.
If the U.K. market is like the U.S. market, you are exactly right.
sdb
--
Wanted: Omnibook 800 & accessories, cheap, working or not
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com
accidental plumber
are sold as higher end items with nicer switch decor etc. The fact is,
all the x10.com items I got over 7 years never failed.
The new wireless standard Zwave? and the proprietary system xxBee? are
all in their early stages, just appeared in trade shows. If you
Froogle them, the price are much higher even if there are something
available. And I won't rely on a proprietary system as X10.com was
bankrupted at 2003, and from their way of doing things on their
website, they are heading at it again. They aren't suitable as
security systems as they are designed to be low power so the batteries
last a long long time. So jamming them should be easy. There are
cheap wireless security systems around, but the security part of X10 is
at the RF side, which isn't the problem.
Do you need a wired system? Rewire the whole house if you are not
already in a multi-million dollar automated house? Hire expensive
labor? Use monitoring service such as ADT?
There's almost little competition for automation, unless you are afraid
to lose face if you press the button and the music doesn't come on. In
my home "theater", I have a cable DVR, sound box, DVD changer, and an
Internet TV box. I also have a TV channel sharing among 3 X10 cams,
for monitoring and security. Nothing controls them all and I had a
hard time to find the remote controls if I need some special functions.
So a 99% reliability of the light switch is good enough for me. And
if you do the math to include 2nd chances, the reliability is really
high.
As for security, is your life depends on it? I'm not afraid of high
tech thieves who jam my wireless security alarm while I'm not at home,
steal the valuables and leave no traces. So I just claim the
insurance. I don't want stupid thieves who break the windows and make
a big mess. Lots or alarms and floodlights and cameras would deter
them, or anybody.
I only care if I'm in the house, and I hope to get as much advance
warning as possible, be it false alarm. I couldn't easily get that
trade off with a monitoring service. If someone is already in the
house and the alarm sounded, does it matter whether the police is
coming or not?
For perimeter defense, x10 has no equal as they have the whole range of
things, lights, PIR, cameras, all controlled and programmable. For
outdoors, it's much harder to make it fool proof and avoid false alarm.
So basically it's an early warning and deterrent system. x10 is
sufficient.
accidental plumber
(sorry about Levitron, it's something else.)
I got the security system first. Still working after 7 years. Two PIR
on the ground floor making it fail safe against hot body intruders. I
had a couple of magnetic contacts. They are never enough for the
California architecture - huge windows on all sides. So I use them
mainly for the doors and garage doors. For the remaining rarely opened
windows I use tiny independent alarms once they fall to a few dollars.
The sound is enough to wake up everybody and the batteries last for a
long time. Again I'll add some glass break detectors if I see
something cheap. They seldom needed to be turned on or off. I'm not
in a hurry as there is double protection.
Then a couple of light switches and lamp modules, trying to make the
house looked occupied when I'm away using the macro box with old serial
interface. Actually I can't do a dust to dawn PIR triggered floodlight
with x10 components, so I brought one pretty and cheap lantern from
Lowes. I have another old dust to dawn outdoor lantern. So I just
screw in the x10 rocket to become a dust to dawn PIR triggered outdoor
light. I don't actually deliberately buy all those modules, they are
in the starter kits and bundled in one way or the other.
By the way, I had a programmable timer to replace the light switch in
the dinning room. Not from X10 but from Lowes. After a year or two,
the battery leaked and the whole thing sort of degenerated. While the
X10 craps are still going strong.
Then two more lamp modules and a stick on wall button switch and key
chain switches because I wanted to add two bed side reading lights as
in hotels. They are the only dimmers that get used a lot. Once in
bed, I don't need to get out of bed to turn off any lights. I can also
turn on or off any lights in the bedroom at the door. This is the most
used and most like home automation part of my system.
Then I played with those cheap eagle eye PIR detectors to see if I can
do perimeter defense. No. Two much false alarms. So I think someday I
will put them in the toilet, so the light will turn on when people
enter.
Then xcam's to monitor the front door so I only need to dress decent
and open the door when necessary. Then another for baby monitor, them
more baby monitors.
Then someone do some harmless prank on my front lawn. It's totally
harmless but I have to clean it up. For the 2nd time I called the
police. I'm in the sort of town that they are happy to sent a deputy
over right away. But they told me that they can't do anything and
those who done it are probably kids. I agreed because otherwise they
wanted to send me a message, but I don't know what it is.
So I have to do something about it. So there are independent dawn to
dust PIR controlled lanterns around my house. I tried to build many
cheap laser beam detectors to trigger alarms, so there will not be
false alarm if someone enter my lawn, just like the museums in the
movies. The detector is trivial, aligning is easy but mounting them in
secure places around the lawn is difficult. My "gardeners" will mow
them down in now time.
So alarm is out of the question, and it have to be cameras. I played
with a night vision camera. The night vision is OK but even if I put
on a high power IR source, the contrast aren't enough to trigger my
$100 DVR with motion detection at night. The bottom line is that I
need a install-it and then forget-it system, running 24/7 on itself.
Perhaps x10 should go into those crap DVR's. Nobody has VCR's anymore.
And I don't want to give the space to put a big VCR box. I don't want
to change tapes, period. For $100 you can get a 20 GB MP4 recorder, or
a laughable 128 MB motion DVR. I opted for the later as no human
intervention is needed. The old images will be replaced automatically.
Adding a 1 or 2 GB SD card will be OK. It's trivial to change the
20 GB hard disk recorder to a security DVR aware appliance, but nobody
did it yet. Both device are palm sized. So if all come to the worse,
you can stick it next to the camera at the roof.
My Eagle eyes came to the rescue. So the final system is something
like this. There is a wall of cheap PIR around my house. For dust to
dawn operation they are awesome. You need to point it about 20 degree
downwards at 10 feet high to reduce false alarm. So only people
walking into the front lawn will trigger anything. Then each PIR will
trigger the same or different floodlight AND camera. So the changing
of camera via X10 and the onset of floodlight triggers the motion DVR.
Even a 50W bulb outdoor is better than a night vision camera with 12
high power LED.
Look what I caught? Teenagers and kids walking home alone at 9 pm. I
was surprised as nobody walks even in day time. People walking dogs at
10 pm. Though I'm not sure if they are really neighbors or spies.
Anyway, I saw somebody jumps when the flood lights are on. Now nobody
dare to walks pass the sidewalk in front of my house any more. If
necessary, they all cross the road first before proceeding.
accidental plumber
magnet window / door detectors. The batteries in them last a long time
so they are good candidates. They are either at the roof or near the
windows. Now the cheap solar panels are a few dollars each, smaller
than half a dollar bill. They may last a year or two. All except
those PIR mounted on trees They are shadowed by leaves all the time.
But then again, no other system suggest to mount anything on trees!
accidental plumber
If you get an X10 kit and try it out, most likely it would work
beautifully. But if you expand to any non-trivial system around the
whole house, I can guarantee that it would not work reliably. The
troubleshooting from X10 are well hidden or very distorted. A few
years ago it's difficult to find any info in the net though the
technology is from the 70's. Now there are two much troubleshooting
info over the top, without perspective. Mostly likely something simple
will make you system work reliably.
1. Check your wiring if you are not in a new house. It just take one
moron in the past 10 years before I took over the house to wire a wrong
socket and disabled half the house from X10 control. The socket is
well hidden, never used, but it will work as the neutral is wired into
the ground. A few dollars for a 3 pin tester will get the sockets
tested pretty quick.
2. You need at least one 5A "noise" blocker and two will be good for
most people. One for your TV and all the home theater gadgets around
it. Other for the computer and the gadgets around it. The devil are
electronics especially higher power ones.
All electronics need to reject power line noise and fluctuations.
Basically they all attenuate the X10 signals, which is noise to the
power signal. The higher the power, the more difficult the job is,
while the easiest way to do it is to use a by pass capacitor.
The TV alone doesn't cause any obvious trouble but the load of all the
boxes add up. The lights near the TV and home theater cannot be
switched on half of the time.
Since usually you have a single extension where all your devices are
plugged on, you just need to plug in the blocker to the wall socket
first, and then plug in the extension plug over it. But check if 5A is
enough for all your devices. If not, either buy a higher amp one or
plug some of the lower power devices directly into the electrical
sockets. A blocker is basically an inductor in serious so the whole
extension are isolated from the rest of the house electrical circuit
via a high impedance.
The other cluster a home may have is a computer. My 400W switching
supply is OK. On the same extension, I have cable modem, wi-fi router,
scanner, printer, and many more because I needed two extensions with
between 15 to 20 sockets.
The devil is the D-Link wi-fi router. Strangely it has a DC adapter
rated at 2.5 Amp !! It alone will kill off any X10 action in the same
electrical circuit. I replaced it with a 500 mA and it still works
reliably as a wi-fi router. Once it's sorted out, I don't even need a
blocker for the lights to work reliably. But since these things add
up, I suggest to add another blocker here.
The moral is, if you plug in a crap battery charger somewhere in your
house, your whole system could be compromised.
3. If your house has 3-phase 240V circuit split into two separate 120V
circuits, x10 doesn't work across the two circuits. I have 3-phase and
I thought I had the same problem. But after I found out what a moron
had done, now I can control every socket and light in my house, a
typical 3-bed Cali house. Anyway, the problem is easily detected and
the solution is simple. There's a adapter plug type of thing to couple
the two phases. You can still plug in your 3-phase appliance over it.
One even cheaper way is to add another transceiver on the other circuit
that come to you bundled and almost free, that you never needed.
4. Noise and interference from outside of your house. I don't think
the problem is that common. x10 house codes are supposed to solve the
interference problem. Unless your neighbor has something strange in
their house, the outside noise is similar to the inside noise you
generated in your own home. I would invest in a pair of testers before
committing to find a qualified electrician to do the job according to
Cali code.
5. Noises - overrated. The big blower of the central system, no
problem. Washing machine and drying machine, no problem for x10, even
though the wi-fi performance suffers. Ceiling fans, washing machine
and fluorescent lights, all no problem. But the truth is, they are
never turned on all at the same time. Very unlike the electronics.
6. RF range. I never have any problem with the range. The exception
is when the security console is in the install mode, the range is much
shorter probably due to old age of the device. I make sure that the
backup battery is charged and bring the console near to the detectors
one by one to "install" them.
Another exception is when there are two transceivers on the same phase,
listening to the same house code. The range appeared to be very short,
but the cause of unreliability is probably the collision of x10 power
line signals.
Dave Houston
of trouble by asking questions in comp.home.automation where there are a lot
of people quite skilled in things X-10.
First, even though the price has recently gone up to about $65, an ELK ESM1
X-10 Signal Strength meter is an invaluable troubleshooting aid. It can also
show the presence/absence of Insteon signals.
The inexpensive X-10 Sundowner can be used to detect dawn and dusk.
Some TVs need filters - some do not. The ESM1 will tell you whether yours
does or doesn't.
"X-10 security" is an oxymoron. I can disarm any X-10 security console in
less than 30 seconds from outside the residence without physically touching
anything.
There's nothing "strange" about the current rating of the D-Link power
supply. It's a switchmode supply. It only supplies what the equipment needs
and wastes very little power when idle. Given that California, Europe and
other regions have mandated efficiency standards that can only be met by
such supplies, everyone is likely to start seeing switchmode supplies with
all new equipment. Some may pose problems for X-10 but I have a lot of
D-Link gear (router, WAP, network HDD and had a wireless router until I
upgraded from 802.11B) with these supplies, none of which causes any trouble
for my X-10 & Insteon. I've also tested the switchmode supplies sold by
Circuit Specialists and found them X-10 and Insteon friendly.
Transceivers on the same phase are _NEVER_ a problem. TM751 transceivers on
opposite phases (or legs) will _ALWAYS_ cause powerline collisions on unit
codes 1 & 9. Use RR501s which have collision avoidance (but at the cost of
duplicated commands) or use the Leviton HPCRF transceiver which handles all
housecodes and also has collision avoidance.
That you experience no problems from the AC and other motors, fluorescents,
etc. is the luck of the draw. Others may have problems - it depends on how
noisy the equipment is and on what X-10 gear is in use. Many X-10 switches
and modules are prone to brownouts and to noise spikes which can be caused
by motors, fluorescents, etc. This is documented on X-10's website.
3-phase power to a single family residence is quite rare in the USA (and
3-phase appliances rarer still). I doubt very much that you have 3-phase
power. More likely you have one 240V phase split into two 120V phases (or
legs), 180° out of phase with each other, which the electricians among us
call "split-phase". Again, whether or not a phase coupler is needed depends
on specifics.
I have covered nearly each of these issues, as succinctly as I can, on my
web page...
You should stick to plumbing. ;)
"accidental plumber" <aplay...@yahoo.com> wrote:
http://davehouston.net
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
roZetta-...@yahoogroups.com
nick markowitz
coupler and filter block at main breaker panel.
This seems in many cases to clear up many of the problems of sensors not
talking to master control sensors tripping off for no reason etc. If good
cleanpower source is not comming into home x-10 is a nightmare.
where i have used the coupler filter block many problems disapear.
"accidental plumber" <aplay...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162622097.5...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bill Kearney
> dare to walks pass the sidewalk in front of my house any more. If
> necessary, they all cross the road first before proceeding.
Gee, how neighborly.
And please, do not cross-post with a.s.a.
accidental plumber
> I think you really have a lot to learn and could have saved yourself a lot
> of trouble by asking questions in comp.home.automation where there are a lot
> of people quite skilled in things X-10.
Come on, who's everybody at 1999? I called the x10 technical support
and he said my house has noise and stopped me from saying anything
more. I gave up usenet in the early 90's and went into the WWW. I
would not have posted here if not for Google revived the usenet groups
because they do not have enough takers for their own Google group. And
that the Google search engine is very good for Google groups (and
Usenet groups). So good that I think I helped numerous people
unclogging their drains last month with little work.
>
> First, even though the price has recently gone up to about $65, an ELK ESM1
> X-10 Signal Strength meter is an invaluable troubleshooting aid. It can also
> show the presence/absence of Insteon signals.
>
> The inexpensive X-10 Sundowner can be used to detect dawn and dusk.
>
> Some TVs need filters - some do not. The ESM1 will tell you whether yours
> does or doesn't.
If you search around for info, this is precisely what you get, over the
top as I already stated. Basically you are telling people on a budget,
who won't change a light switch, not to get into X10 and carrier line.
I'm telling people the opposite. If you just want the house to look
occupied, or seniors who wanted to reduce the need of getting in and
out of bed to turn on and off the lights, X10 is a decent choice on a
budget.
And that you don't need to throw a lot of unnecessary money and time
for nothing. And you don't need to do trouble shooting. I already
done the work for you. If you follow my 1,2, 3's.
Come on, typical, it's not just the signal meter, you need the
transmitter as well. Buying all that, more expensive than most kits,
to decide whether you need a $10 blocker ?! Is that over the top or
what?
>From my simple instructions, you can easily decide if X10 is for you
with only a starter kit.
>
> "X-10 security" is an oxymoron. I can disarm any X-10 security console in
> less than 30 seconds from outside the residence without physically touching
> anything.
That is typical of wireless security systems, but you forget that I
have perimeter defense and double or triple protection for cheap.
It's useful if you can tell us how easy it is to jam or disable the x10
system. So we can see how difficult it is to guard against it. As I
have said, probably I would open my doors for civilized thieves armed
with a jammer, and then call the insurance company afterward. Those
armed with stones are the problems.
My high power welcome lanterns from Lowes has PIR detection range of at
least 300 ft. I have to adjust the sensitivity down to 50. Then the
wall of overlapping cheap eagle eye PIR's which has about the same
range. I have to point them at the ground to avoid reflections from
afar. Then I have at least 4 cameras mounted at not so visible places.
They are at 2.4 GHz and 1.2 GHz, all at line of sight to my receiver
at 10 ft away. I don't know too much about jamming but to jam the
xcam's, you need to have the power of a magnetron as in your microwave,
and put it near to the line of sight or the receiver.
I was going to buy more consoles if I find some cheap things on eBay.
I'm sure they will work together as the x10 detectors only transmit.
If I put consoles at the two ends of the house, it should guard against
portable low power jammers.
Now you have 3 frequencies to jam. 2.4 G, 1.2 G which is illegal I
think, and the x10 frequency, which is neither of the above.
After all that, I still have decent locks on the doors, and the 3
dollar independent alarms on most windows.
>
> There's nothing "strange" about the current rating of the D-Link power
> supply. It's a switchmode supply. It only supplies what the equipment needs
> and wastes very little power when idle. Given that California, Europe and
> other regions have mandated efficiency standards that can only be met by
> such supplies, everyone is likely to start seeing switchmode supplies with
> all new equipment. Some may pose problems for X-10 but I have a lot of
> D-Link gear (router, WAP, network HDD and had a wireless router until I
> upgraded from 802.11B) with these supplies, none of which causes any trouble
> for my X-10 & Insteon. I've also tested the switchmode supplies sold by
> Circuit Specialists and found them X-10 and Insteon friendly.
Only electricians will take notice of switchmode supplies as if it is
special. Most people have a big switchmode supply in their PC since
the 80's !!! From 100W to 300W and now 500W. The technology isn't the
problem, bad design is.
The strange thing is that I'm not attaching a chainsaw to my cable
modem, but a wi-fi router. 2.5 A?! No way. Throw the router away.
Now it works happily on a 500 mA DC adaptor, though I'm not using all
the 4 Ethernet ports. My life depends on the router, as I have
internet phone. E911 depends on the router to work. Of course I have
several cell phones as back up and most if not all old cell phones can
use emergency services.
I'm telling you, with my now expert insight, that one moron can wire a
socket uniquely and hence screw up the whole house. And one bad D-link
DC adapter can kill the x10 signal stone dead. Forget about your
signal meter, each electronic box attenuate the x10 signal a bit, that
your LED blinking meter cannot measure. And they add up. So it's
worthwhile to use a blocker to isolate the TV cluster and maybe the PC
cluster, so the signal is not attenuated and increase the reliability.
If your signal is weak, you will have all sorts of noise problems.
>
> Transceivers on the same phase are _NEVER_ a problem. TM751 transceivers on
> opposite phases (or legs) will _ALWAYS_ cause powerline collisions on unit
> codes 1 & 9. Use RR501s which have collision avoidance (but at the cost of
> duplicated commands) or use the Leviton HPCRF transceiver which handles all
> housecodes and also has collision avoidance.
That's probably right, but who cares. I'm saying that the RF range
(and the wired range) is normally decent for a 2000 sqft house and 5000
sqft yard. If you feel that you have a short range, it could be that
you have two transceivers on the same house code. On different house
codes are OK, I have been using it for years to overcome a moron socket
wiring.
>
> That you experience no problems from the AC and other motors, fluorescents,
> etc. is the luck of the draw. Others may have problems - it depends on how
> noisy the equipment is and on what X-10 gear is in use. Many X-10 switches
> and modules are prone to brownouts and to noise spikes which can be caused
> by motors, fluorescents, etc. This is documented on X-10's website.
Is the x10 info ever useful? Like the D-link adapter, one bad design
can screw up all. But basically I'm saying that ordinary household
appliances are OK statistically, much tamer than electronics. For
noise to turn on or off a light by itself is statistically unlikely
event, unless you are constantly bombarded by strong noises, or the X10
physical and protocol design is really stupid. If you keep your signal
strong by blocking the electronics, noise is much less of a problem.
My news are good news as what can you do about a noisy blower? Washing
machine? Throw them away and get a new one? Plug them in a 30A
blocker each? Worry about your electronic clusters first.
Brownouts are the exceptions. If that bothers you, forget about X10
and dave's website.
>
> 3-phase power to a single family residence is quite rare in the USA (and
> 3-phase appliances rarer still). I doubt very much that you have 3-phase
> power. More likely you have one 240V phase split into two 120V phases (or
> legs), 180° out of phase with each other, which the electricians among us
> call "split-phase". Again, whether or not a phase coupler is needed depends
> on specifics.
May be rare in Houston, but at least as far as my eyes can see, all the
fake Spanish Californian architectures all have the same design (15
years old?). One special 3 phase socket in the utility room for the
dryer and washer. But my washer don't need it and I use gas for my
dryer. As my house isn't that big, having one columns of breakers in
the distribution box rather than two columns, I think all the lights
and sockets of interest are on the same phase.
>
> I have covered nearly each of these issues, as succinctly as I can, on my
> web page...
>
> http://davehouston.net
But you turn people off at the 1st page, I'm not looking at soldering
anything. And now people all over the world can Google me for x10, not
you.
>
> You should stick to plumbing. ;)
Did you failed to get into RF IC design, or at least analog IC design?
accidental plumber
electrical appliances and tested?
Because your neighbors typically have the same things as you do. If
you have a clean strong signal in your house, it's harder for outside
devices' effect to travel far and affect your house.
The exception is brownouts and power surge. Brownouts are hard to deal
with unless your device have high capacitance to buffer momentarily
brownouts. As far as noise goes, the chance of looking like a valid
X10 code shouldn't be likely, unless it's constant bombardment, not
surges.
accidental plumber
for the sidewalks to help my neighbors, but only turned on when there
are people nearby to save electricity and the world.
Now I tone down my floodlight system, using a mechanical time so the
setup is only active after 10pm. But there are still the morons
walking dogs after that. Next time I'll have a paper cut life side
figure holding a gun. And I'll trigger the dining room lights to shine
a shadow of a man holding a gun at the windows.
BTW, all my X10 setup are for security, though they may have dual
purposes.
Dave Houston
>Come on, who's everybody at 1999?
What the hell does that senseless drivel mean?
>If you search around for info, this is precisely what you get, over the
>top as I already stated. Basically you are telling people on a budget,
>who won't change a light switch, not to get into X10 and carrier line.
Can you even read past the third grade level? I usually tell people how to
make X-10 work without having to spend much money. The difference seems to
be that I know what I'm talking about while you remain totally clueless
while presenting yourself as an expert. I got into HA because it offers
those with disabilities (and without a lot of income) ways to control their
environment.
>And that you don't need to throw a lot of unnecessary money and time
>for nothing. And you don't need to do trouble shooting. I already
>done the work for you. If you follow my 1,2, 3's.
As I said, you are clueless and anyone who follows your advice will be
equally clueless.
>Come on, typical, it's not just the signal meter, you need the
>transmitter as well. Buying all that, more expensive than most kits,
>to decide whether you need a $10 blocker ?! Is that over the top or
>what?
There is no need for a special test transmitter as you want to measure the
signal from your standard transmitters in situ.
>> "X-10 security" is an oxymoron. I can disarm any X-10 security console in
>> less than 30 seconds from outside the residence without physically touching
>> anything.
>
>That is typical of wireless security systems, but you forget that I
>have perimeter defense and double or triple protection for cheap.
No, it is not typical of wireless security systems. Most others have some
semblance of security - decent systems utilize rolling codes - X-10 has
absolutely no security. I don't have to get inside your "perimeter defense".
I don't have to jam it. I merely have to send all 256 possible ID codes plus
a disarm code via RF and there is absolutely no way you can prevent it short
of turning off your X-10 security console.
>I'm telling you, with my now expert insight, that one moron...
We can agree on one thing - you should have expertise on morons - you most
certainly are one.
>For
>noise to turn on or off a light by itself is statistically unlikely
>event, unless you are constantly bombarded by strong noises, or the X10
>physical and protocol design is really stupid. If you keep your signal
>strong by blocking the electronics, noise is much less of a problem.
Spikes from motors starting/stopping or from fluorescents being switched off
can directly affect many X-10 wall switches causing them to turn on or off.
This happens in the absence of X-10 signals so neither signal strength nor
the details of the X-10 protocol is a factor.
>One special 3 phase socket in the utility room for the
>dryer and washer. But my washer don't need it and I use gas for my
>dryer. As my house isn't that big, having one columns of breakers in
>the distribution box rather than two columns, I think all the lights
>and sockets of interest are on the same phase.
That is NOT a 3-phase socket idiot! It's a 240V dryer outlet which is single
phase.
Killfiles were made for morons like you.
accidental plumber
> "accidental plumber" <aplay...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Come on, who's everybody at 1999?
>
> What the hell does that senseless drivel mean?
>
That's when I brought my x-10 system and ran into troubles. I couldn't
learn from you then, can I?
> >If you search around for info, this is precisely what you get, over the
> >top as I already stated. Basically you are telling people on a budget,
> >who won't change a light switch, not to get into X10 and carrier line.
>
> Can you even read past the third grade level? I usually tell people how to
> make X-10 work without having to spend much money. The difference seems to
> be that I know what I'm talking about while you remain totally clueless
> while presenting yourself as an expert. I got into HA because it offers
> those with disabilities (and without a lot of income) ways to control their
> environment.
>
But your website looked like a hobby electronic kit store. Turn me off
1st page.
> >And that you don't need to throw a lot of unnecessary money and time
> >for nothing. And you don't need to do trouble shooting. I already
> >done the work for you. If you follow my 1,2, 3's.
>
> As I said, you are clueless and anyone who follows your advice will be
> equally clueless.
My no. 1 point is unique insight, if you do not own your home from new,
it's worth while to check the wiring. Calling a qualified electrician
in CA to wire a socket will cost you an arm an a leg. The temptation
is too great for a moron to try doing it and screw up. It only cost
you 3 dollars and a couple of minutes.
My other advices are not different from the info found everywhere, just
that I have perspective, I weight the likelihood of things and come up
with money and TIME saving suggestions.
What do you suggest again? Buy a meter that is more expensive than a
starter kit? You say every appliance is a potential problem. Does
that help? Many appliances are wired in and you need an electrician to
add the block. If you find a weak signal, do you know which thing
cause it? If you have limited mobility, just block the whole TV
cluster or the PC cluster, and your problems may be cured. If not,
certainly the signal will be improved.
For a simple lumped, every appliance will have parallel effect,
dragging down the x10 signal. That's very true for my TV, making it
difficult to turn on. Adding the laptop adapter, stone dead. So you
don't need to measure the signal much, because every electronic
contributes. For the distributed, measuring the signal also doesn't
help much.
>
> >Come on, typical, it's not just the signal meter, you need the
> >transmitter as well. Buying all that, more expensive than most kits,
> >to decide whether you need a $10 blocker ?! Is that over the top or
> >what?
>
> There is no need for a special test transmitter as you want to measure the
> signal from your standard transmitters in situ.
>
> >> "X-10 security" is an oxymoron. I can disarm any X-10 security console in
> >> less than 30 seconds from outside the residence without physically touching
> >> anything.
> >
> >That is typical of wireless security systems, but you forget that I
> >have perimeter defense and double or triple protection for cheap.
>
> No, it is not typical of wireless security systems. Most others have some
> semblance of security - decent systems utilize rolling codes - X-10 has
> absolutely no security. I don't have to get inside your "perimeter defense".
> I don't have to jam it. I merely have to send all 256 possible ID codes plus
> a disarm code via RF and there is absolutely no way you can prevent it short
> of turning off your X-10 security console.
How "fact" is your fact? When I brought it, I remembered that in the
install mode, x10 mentioned something like acquiring a long code. The
older style magnetic detectors all have a code button, but not on the
new craps. I'll have to check this. Any links?
So I still have my PIR's, floodlights and xcams working? Great, say
cheese.
>
> >I'm telling you, with my now expert insight, that one moron...
>
> We can agree on one thing - you should have expertise on morons - you most
> certainly are one.
>
> >For
> >noise to turn on or off a light by itself is statistically unlikely
> >event, unless you are constantly bombarded by strong noises, or the X10
> >physical and protocol design is really stupid. If you keep your signal
> >strong by blocking the electronics, noise is much less of a problem.
>
> Spikes from motors starting/stopping or from fluorescents being switched off
> can directly affect many X-10 wall switches causing them to turn on or off.
> This happens in the absence of X-10 signals so neither signal strength nor
> the details of the X-10 protocol is a factor.
So this is very stupid design of the switches, as the fluorescents
lights, washing machines, dishing machines are basically the same as in
the 70's. So quality switches not labeled Powerhouse will sort that
out? I don't have those problems. My haunted house experience ended
when all the lights can be reliably turned on or off by remote.
>
> >One special 3 phase socket in the utility room for the
> >dryer and washer. But my washer don't need it and I use gas for my
> >dryer. As my house isn't that big, having one columns of breakers in
> >the distribution box rather than two columns, I think all the lights
> >and sockets of interest are on the same phase.
>
> That is NOT a 3-phase socket idiot! It's a 240V dryer outlet which is single
> phase.
>
> Killfiles were made for morons like you.
>
Now you understand what I mean by over the top. Everybody talk about
needing phase coupling as a solution without taking about the
likelihood of it. My socket has 4 pins and 3 phase is a logical
deduction.
I didn't do my 3rd grade here. I still don't speak that much English
on a daily basis. I guess your schools are too good that everybody
went on to become electricians, mechanics and plumbers, charging sky
high prices. For a main switch and a pressure regulator, the highest
estimate is $1000 and the lowest is $600. From that day I became an
accidental plumber and buy any expensive gadget without 2nd thought.
So your people have to fly me here via business class to fill the other
positions. I can ship all my furnitures if I like but they say the
smaller size will make it look awkward in Cali houses. So I only
brought my unfinished car wash bottles.
accidental plumber
Even my life doesn't depend on it, I check it anyway. Well the random
code means 8 bit ID code, scary. Not even the house code is checked.
I was hoping that attempts to disarm with invalid ID will trigger the
alarm or something. But the instructions said it all: if your alarm
is disarmed by your neighbors, install your system again! Wow!
All I got is a bling when the alarm is disarmed, sure wouldn't be
enough to wake me up. But would any invalid disarm attempts cause a
bling? Probably not.
Anyway, I will not register any remote to arm it. So I guess nobody
will be able to disarm it remotely, unless the random default to 00
that sort of stupid thing again. The alarm is logically in the bedroom
so arming the console isn't a problem. Maybe add one more console at
the garage to avoid some sprinting? which could also allow remote
arming as there are no personal safety issues. Better still, scrap it.
sylvan butler
> "accidental plumber" <aplay...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>dryer and washer. But my washer don't need it and I use gas for my
>>dryer. As my house isn't that big, having one columns of breakers in
>>the distribution box rather than two columns, I think all the lights
>>and sockets of interest are on the same phase.
> That is NOT a 3-phase socket
...
> It's a 240V dryer outlet which is single phase.
That's about the only thing I recognized as correct in Dave's spew. He
is right about that, if you are in any kind of normal U.S.A. housing.
> Killfiles were made for morons like you.
And for me too, I think. :)
Mostly you can ignore Dave's prickly edges. He does have some good info
now and again, but likes to bury it beneath his superiority complex
(which most often manifests as intolerance and excessively harsh
personal comments). But don't judge him too harshly, he is old and
suffers poor health.
Beachcomber
<aplay...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I always wonder this: have you unplug all your electronic and
>electrical appliances and tested?
>
>Because your neighbors typically have the same things as you do. If
>you have a clean strong signal in your house, it's harder for outside
>devices' effect to travel far and affect your house.
>
>The exception is brownouts and power surge. Brownouts are hard to deal
>with unless your device have high capacitance to buffer momentarily
>brownouts. As far as noise goes, the chance of looking like a valid
>X10 code shouldn't be likely, unless it's constant bombardment, not
>surges.
>
Well... strictly speaking, it's your utility company might use a
capacitor bank to minimize a drop in line voltage, but that's only if
you are having problems with low power factor and that is generally
not a problem with residential service unless you live in a factory
district. In most cases, it's a power company problem and there are
few, if any residences that switch in capacitance to correct for low
power factor.
A brownout is an extended-time drop in voltage to your service usually
caused by heavy loads (like summer-time peak air conditioning).
There is not much you can do about them unless you have a line
conditioner, which might also be described as a variable buck-boost
transformer that effectively changes taps on-the-fly. Some power
company substation transformers will do this for you. Not sure what
you mean by buffering capacitance unless you are speaking in a very,
very general sense, as in the stored energy of a ferro-resonant
transformer or a mechanical flywheel.
Beachcomber
Dave Houston
Well, strictly speaking, I was referring to very short term dips that cause
the 湣ontroller used in X-10 switches and modules to reset such as X-10
documents here...
http://www.x10.com/support/x10trou.htm#on
accidental plumber
can be compensated with a strong x10 signal. And now I know what they
are talking about, the other effect is on the electrical/electronic
design of the switch themselves. It's like a bad power supply to the
switch. A power surge spike will make the internal electronics go
crazy. If this is not that rare, a quality switch should reduce the
problem. I remembered the brownout stuff, but forget that it's totally
self inflicting. But that should trigger the manual override to my
timed, dust to dawn, PIR outdoor lantern two. But I won't be awake to
see it.
So the biggest enemy is signal attenuation by your own appliances, that
x10 didn't mention.
> the µController used in X-10 switches and modules to reset such as X-10
Robert Green
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:454d11df...@nntp.fuse.net...
> "accidental plumber" <aplay...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Come on, who's everybody at 1999?
>
> What the hell does that senseless drivel mean?
It means you're probably talking to a Borat-imitating troll. It's the same
old X-10 argument being revived (always guarantees a response from the hip
before the brain for most people) and is being posted to ASA as well.
Notice the Yahoo/Google groups addy and the remarkably good English
interspersed with pluralization problems. If Borat II had anything
interesting to say, I might have done more research but my nose tells me
this is a typical sock puppet. Born, Google says, just a few days ago and
already the little tyke is crossposting to ASA and CHA. And *only* to ASA
and CHA. How likely is that? He's best left to talk to himself until he
tires himself out. My hunch is that anyone who accepts him as an expert
will deserve it.
Whomever Borat is trying to be, he's very obviously a native born English
speaker. Since it's an ASA crosspost hiding behind both Yahoo AND Google
from someone who began his posting life just last week, I leave it to you to
figure who and what vendetta is eventually behind it.
<sigh>
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
I reached the same conclusion and added him to my aquarium (where I put
posters who appear fishy) after Round 2.
Lewis Gardner
>>>One special 3 phase socket in the utility room for the
>>>dryer and washer. But my washer don't need it and I use gas for my
>>>dryer. As my house isn't that big, having one columns of breakers in
>>>the distribution box rather than two columns, I think all the lights
>>>and sockets of interest are on the same phase.
>>
>>That is NOT a 3-phase socket idiot! It's a 240V dryer outlet which is single
>>phase.
>>
> Now you understand what I mean by over the top. Everybody talk about
> needing phase coupling as a solution without taking about the
> likelihood of it. My socket has 4 pins and 3 phase is a logical
> deduction.
It is only a logical deduction if you don't know much about North
American residential electrical wiring. Simply looking at the entrance
wiring or panel will show a experienced (or even accidental) electrician
if the premise has split phase or 3 phase service.
The socket you describe has 2 hot phase wires, 1 neutral wire and 1
ground wire. It is a common 240VAC socket and required since 1996 NEC.
Due to your "logical deduction" skills I would put you at about a 8 on
the dangerous scale.
Julian
>
>accidental plumber wrote:
>> ... are firstly, the x10.com company. If the company sells products
>> as they are, there won't be god knows how many abandoned modules around
>> the globe. On top of that, the company is one of the most hated
>> company online. I hope this is the first of a serious of articles of
>> my rantings about X10, the protocol and the company.
>>
>> Like most users, I brought a kit for the price, tried it and felt that
>> it was cool. When I committed to it and expanded to the whole house,
>> it became another infamous haunted house. There's no way you can make
>> the X10 products work reliably from the product literatures from
>> x10.com. I had many light switches and modules, three RF transceivers,
>> a full security system with two PIR detectors and many door/window
>> modules. Also I have several cameras controlled by DC adapters from
>> X10. I kept on adding to the system but at the same time part or most
>> of the system are abandoned.
>>
>> The many troubleshooting guides on the net doesn't help much. They are
>> rarely written by Electronics Engineers. Anyway, I started around 1999
>> so there wasn't that much information around. Well, who will get into
>> X10 if they know they need to install another box at the distribution
>> box or consumer box, to block out noise and potential interference from
>> neighbors using x10? And they need one isolator or blocker for any
>> electronic equipments including DC adapters for phone chargers? And
>> then a 3-phase coupler for most houses. And a coupler and repeater if
>> you have a large house. How about the new RF transceiver that listen
>> to all possible house codes and can generate a log for the ghost
>> activities? And a pair of testers at $100?
>>
>> But if I were to do it all over again, it will still be X10. A total
>> wireless system is still too expensive; every module has to have a
>> receiver that is more complicated than the x10 crap. Modules are
>> selling about 1/3 on eBay compared to the x10 website. After 7 years,
>> everything still works, though not together. Despite all the hype, I
>> think I only need one blocker/isolator for the main TV and the
>> electronics around it to solve the reliability problem. The price is
>> some $10 on eBay?
>>
>> Though my system will still be based on x10, but I would have mixed in
>> a lot of other components. For example, for rarely opened and
>> difficult to enter windows, I would use a small independent alarm which
>> could be as cheap as a few dollars. The x10 cameras are crap, which
>> also need short line of sight reception to be non-irritating. More for
>> the next message.
>
>
>If you buy cheap, you get cheap.
Like my Chinese Grandfather used to say:
Good Stuff No Cheap
Cheap Stuff No Good
Julian
Joerg
A wise man. The problem with X10 seems to be that it is tough if not
impossible to find any good stuff.
--
Regards, Joerg
accidental plumber
country, all cheap. Good depends on how you design it.
Nowadays chip makers and Chinese factories are only interested in mass
consumer market to make lots of money. Zwave and Zeebee are all
designed to skip the middleman. Buy it, plug it in, screw it in. So
it doesn't matter what is good and what's not to those guys depending
on automation for a living.
As for DIY'ers, Zeebee only have big development modules at the moment.
The other day I looked at the Zwave controllers and remotes on Lowes;
it horrified me. From the pictures online I didn't know that they are
so fcking BIG. My wife wouldn't approve it. The central panel looked
like a cheap plastic toy rather than a Ultra Mobile PC. But X10
actually have some wafer thin remotes.
Joerg
> That grandfather won't dream about that everything will be made in his
> country, all cheap. Good depends on how you design it.
>
Amen! After fixing some X10 modules I was about ready to grab one of the
design engineers and shake them real good ;-)
> Nowadays chip makers and Chinese factories are only interested in mass
> consumer market to make lots of money. Zwave and Zeebee are all
> designed to skip the middleman. Buy it, plug it in, screw it in. So
> it doesn't matter what is good and what's not to those guys depending
> on automation for a living.
>
Without the big box HW stores I don't think it would have a chance, at
least not in the US.
> As for DIY'ers, Zeebee only have big development modules at the moment.
> The other day I looked at the Zwave controllers and remotes on Lowes;
> it horrified me. From the pictures online I didn't know that they are
> so fcking BIG. My wife wouldn't approve it. The central panel looked
> like a cheap plastic toy rather than a Ultra Mobile PC. ...
Thanks for mentioning Lowes. Have to look next time I am there. HD is
closer so it has been a while.
> ... But X10 actually have some wafer thin remotes.
>
The keychain remotes? Those aren't very good IMHO. Flimsy and drifty.
The white 16-button remotes are pretty good though. I just wish they had
designed them so they only need one AA. I mean, that ain't rocket science.