dowside to z-wave
Dan Irwin
i was reading a thing on z-wave on homeseer's website
(http://www.homeseer.com/products/homeseer/zwave.shtml) and i was
wondering are their any downsides to z-wave?
Southern
"Dan Irwin" <harrygu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a779348.04031...@posting.google.com...
Its really too new to tell if there are going to be technical issues like
interference with Zwave. I sort of remember that 900Mhz is unlicensed
spectrum, so there is the possibility of interference. Sort of like
wireless phones, microwaves, and wireless networks. If I am wrong about
this I am sure some one here will correct me ;-).
As an installer, my current concern is the breadth of product line. I need
wall controllers (wall mounted transmitters) and an embedded controller
(HAI, Stargate...) that supports it before I can consider going to it for
retrofits. Low cost remotes (equivalent to X10 palm pad or key chain
remotes) would be good too. Lots of people are talking about it
(marketeers), but nothing additional has made it to the distribution channel
yet.
Been around long enough to be a skeptic. I've seen lots of things marketed
that did not pan out. I hope Zwave or something like it makes it, since X10
is a real PITA for me to maintain. Latest one I found...Battery Tender, a
long term battery charger/maintainer. Customer insisted nothing new was
plugged in. Turns out it was his son, who did not understand why it needed
the X10 filter took it off the cord.
Robert L. Bass
> technical issues like interference with Zwave. I
> sort of remember that 900Mhz is unlicensed
> spectrum, so there is the possibility of interference.
I have clients using ZWave in proximity to 900 mHz phones and alarms with no
reported problems to date.
> As an installer, my current concern is the breadth
> of product line. I need wall controllers (wall
> mounted transmitters)...
Why? ZWave switches, dimmers and lamp modules are intended to be controlled
by a system. Wall controllers are not necessary.
> and an embedded controller (HAI, Stargate...)...
I spoke with the engineers at ELK and several other firms involved in HA /
security and was encouraged to find that several are studying ZWave to
determine how best to implement the protocol. With Intel promising a ZWave
compatible chip in its next wave and multiple manufacturers ramping up
support, I'd say your fears are unfounded.
Of course, if you mainly sell HAI or Stargate which don't support ZWave, I
can understand the reluctance to see that ZWave is a major improvement over
most current lighting control technologies.
Speaking of HAI, I spent some time with them at the recent Electronic House
Expo. It was interesting watching them try to down ELK's new controller
which looks to be a significant improvement over the Omni series. One rep
actually told me that the ELK-M1 will not be available any time soon. I
neglected to tell him that I had just ordered one. :^)
> Low cost remotes (equivalent to X10 palm
> pad or key chain remotes) would be good
> too...
As the product matures more of these will be available. Meanwhile there's a
handheld programmer which can also function as a remote. All commands are
2-way so the HA controller always knows the status of each controlled device
or circuit. That's a heck of a lot better than "push and pray" X10.
> Lots of people are talking about it (marketeers)...
And you are not?
> Been around long enough to be a skeptic...
And a marketeer. Z-Wave has an advantage over most wired solutions in that
it can be installed without running new wires. This means homeowners can
install it without hiring a paid technician. Some of the detractors of
Z-Wave are folks who make a living installing HA systems. "Installeers"?
:^)
Eric Ryherd
Very reliable so far.
Z-Wave does have a few quirks though. The remote assumes it is the only unit
that will turn the lights on and off. Apparently it stores the state of
every lamp in the remote somewhere and assumes that no one else, like my
computer, will change the state of a lamp. So, when I press the remote to
turn on a lamp, then have the computer turn off the lamp, then press the
button on the remote, the remote tries to turn the lamp off even though it
already is.
Z-Wave is a 2way protocol, the remote should ask the lamp what it's state is
then reverse it! Duh...
I've heard there is a firmware update to the remotes coming to fix this. But
the current remotes may not be upgradeable... Just rumours though...
Z-Wave being in the 900Mhz band is better than being in 2.4Ghz where all the
802.11 stuff is. So Z-Wave should be pretty safe. It is unfortunate that
Z-Wave isn't frequency agile in the 900Mhz band so it could jump around a
cordless phone if it needed to, but most cordless phones are freq agile so
they should get out of the way of Z-Wave.
My Cordless phone is 2.4Ghz but I do have a couple of older cordless phones
I don't use anymore and a wireles headphone but they are all on slightly
different parts of the 900Mhz band so they didn't interfere at all when I
tried them.
My biggest problem is that there aren't enough devices yet. I want
thermostats!
Eric
"Dan Irwin" <harrygu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a779348.04031...@posting.google.com...
Dave Houston
[snip]
>As an installer, my current concern is the breadth of product line. I need
>wall controllers (wall mounted transmitters) and an embedded controller
>(HAI, Stargate...) that supports it before I can consider going to it for
>retrofits. Low cost remotes (equivalent to X10 palm pad or key chain
>remotes) would be good too. Lots of people are talking about it
>(marketeers), but nothing additional has made it to the distribution channel
>yet.
The Zensys SDK includes plans for an RS-232 interface but, AFAIK, nobody has
developed one.
The SDK costs $5K and FFC certification adds $3-5K per device so a generic
interface that can be used by embedded systems is probably not in the
immediate future. Any that are developed are likely to be proprietary.
Southern
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4_KdnVnv_MP...@giganews.com...
> > Its really too new to tell if there are going to be
> > technical issues like interference with Zwave. I
> > sort of remember that 900Mhz is unlicensed
> > spectrum, so there is the possibility of interference.
>
> I have clients using ZWave in proximity to 900 mHz phones and alarms with
no
> reported problems to date.
That is good news. Lets hope it stays that way. I haven't seen any
either...yet. This is always a concern for me around wireless stuff. I am
certain not like Paul the ASA village idiot, but there has been enough
unexpected interference issues over time to make me cautious, such as
microwave ovens causing phone static, and phones degrading wireless network
throughput. An amusing one recently was how the low cost Radio Shack radar
detectors were interfering with Mobil Speed Pass and other RFID stuff. They
had to take them off the market. Not predicting that for Zwave, but in
unregulated spectrum, issues can arise.
> > As an installer, my current concern is the breadth
> > of product line. I need wall controllers (wall
> > mounted transmitters)...
>
> Why? ZWave switches, dimmers and lamp modules are intended to be
controlled
> by a system. Wall controllers are not necessary.
For clarification by wall controller I mean something like
http://www.worthdist.com/images/hccs7.jpg Multifunction wall mounted key
pads are an important design element in most lighting systems. Every
lighting control systems has them (Lightolier, X10, Centralite, Lutron...).
Be interesting which faceplate design come to market for Zwave. I
personally prefer the looks of the older Leviton ones, but clearly I must me
in the minority since many have gone to the newer, busier designs.
> > and an embedded controller (HAI, Stargate...)...
>
> I spoke with the engineers at ELK and several other firms involved in HA /
> security and was encouraged to find that several are studying ZWave to
> determine how best to implement the protocol. With Intel promising a
ZWave
> compatible chip in its next wave and multiple manufacturers ramping up
> support, I'd say your fears are unfounded.
Elk has always delivered for me, though its MM software was a bit odd in
some respects. Lets see what comes. Have you considered writing an
equivalent to Web-Link for Elk now that you are done with the fire system?
> Of course, if you mainly sell HAI or Stargate which don't support ZWave, I
> can understand the reluctance to see that ZWave is a major improvement
over
> most current lighting control technologies.
As I stated prior to your edits, I hope Zwave or something like it makes it
in the market, since X10 is such a PITA. If it lives up to its marketing,
it could also take a hunk out of low end hardwired as well. That will be a
good thing and I will sell lots of it.
My experience has been as an installer that embedded controllers is the
right thing. It eliminates a lot of cluelessness on the part of the home
owner. The pundits talk about the digital divide being between rich and
poor, but a significant fraction of rich people have no idea how
technologies work either. Lights need to work 100%. Customers get very
unhappy when they don't. That is why I install HAI with ALC as my preferred
solution. It meets the 100% uptime requirement. If Elk or GE has a better
offering, I will go to it. I don't have any particular brand loyalty.
However, I need the components I mentioned earlier (embedded controller,
wall keypad, low cost remotes...). You seem positive they will be there,
which in your market niche is an appropriate position. Waiting until they
are is an appropriate position for me as an installer.
> Speaking of HAI, I spent some time with them at the recent Electronic
House
> Expo. It was interesting watching them try to down ELK's new controller
> which looks to be a significant improvement over the Omni series. One rep
> actually told me that the ELK-M1 will not be available any time soon. I
> neglected to tell him that I had just ordered one. :^)
I dislike marketeers, of any stripe.
> > Low cost remotes (equivalent to X10 palm
> > pad or key chain remotes) would be good
> > too...
>
> As the product matures more of these will be available. Meanwhile there's
a
> handheld programmer which can also function as a remote. All commands are
> 2-way so the HA controller always knows the status of each controlled
device
> or circuit. That's a heck of a lot better than "push and pray" X10.
Agreed that it should be better than X-10, but the need for low cost remotes
and other items to fill out the product line remains.
> > Lots of people are talking about it (marketeers)...
>
> And you are not?
I don't market here. Never have, never will. I have never posted my
company name, website address, or phone number. I offer my opinion and
experience and gain solely from the opinions and experience of others. Can
you say the same?
> Z-Wave has an advantage over most wired solutions in that it can be
installed without running new wires.
I have a starter set and it works as advertised. When Z-wave or something
like it matures, I will certainly install it. It will significantly
increase my business since it will make retrofits much easier.
> This means homeowners can
> install it without hiring a paid technician. Some of the detractors of
> Z-Wave are folks who make a living installing HA systems.
I love DIYs, they are the driving force and the font of creativity in the HA
marketplace. They also increase the acceptance of HA, which makes it easier
to sell it to builders and homeowners.
> "Installeers"?
Its marketeer, which rhymes with mouseketeers
Rick DeNatale
> Z-Wave does have a few quirks though. The remote assumes it is the only unit
> that will turn the lights on and off. Apparently it stores the state of
> every lamp in the remote somewhere and assumes that no one else, like my
> computer, will change the state of a lamp. So, when I press the remote to
> turn on a lamp, then have the computer turn off the lamp, then press the
> button on the remote, the remote tries to turn the lamp off even though it
> already is.
> Z-Wave is a 2way protocol, the remote should ask the lamp what it's state is
> then reverse it! Duh...
Arggh, we've already got enough problems with home entertainment
components not having discrete codes for on/off and the like. Even with a
two-way protocol, I would think that the remote should be able to send
turn on AND turn off rather than toggle, this is faster than requiring a
conversation. It's certainly nice to able to query/track the device
states, but you shouldn't have to use that capability in order to do basic
functions.
Rick DeNatale
> Speaking of HAI, I spent some time with them at the recent Electronic House
> Expo. It was interesting watching them try to down ELK's new controller
> which looks to be a significant improvement over the Omni series. One rep
> actually told me that the ELK-M1 will not be available any time soon. I
> neglected to tell him that I had just ordered one. :^)
Is there any technical info available on the web? A google search only
produced some press info. Even the web-site for Elk given in then EH-Expo
exhibitor info doesn't seem to mention the M1. I wasn't really looking at
security stuff a EH-Expo so I managed to miss them. I am really
interested in a security system which can talk over the home lan to other
HA components, I just wasn't thinking too much about that at EH expo last
week.
Robert L. Bass
> thermostats!
Hi Eric,
I'll have a Z-Wave compatible thermostat soon. RCS is working on it. There
are other players in the development stage as well.
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
Robert L. Bass
So far so good.
> For clarification by wall controller I mean something
> like http://www.worthdist.com/images/hccs7.jpg
I checked with ELK today and apparently the ELK-M1 Gold version is going to
support Z-Wave. I'm not sure if that will be in the first release (this
week) or an upcoming firmware upgrade. The engineering staff were
squirreled away in a conference room discussing dealer input from the EH
Expo. As soon as my test kit arrives I'll give you more feedback on this.
When it does support Z-Wave, the ELK-M1KP touchpad will be able to issue
scene commands, etc. Because the panel can map commands to custom ASCII
strings over TCP/IP, RS-232, etc., it should be trivial to add anyone's
touchpad or touchscreen controller to the mix. The possibilities with a
system like this are endless.
> Multifunction wall mounted key pads are an
> important design element in most lighting systems...
I personally prefer controls that look and feel like ordinary dimmers. I
like the Decora paddle style for its appearance and intuitive user
interface. There's nothing to learn. Anything more complex, such as scenes
and "all lights [whatever]" commands should IMO come from within the system
in response to other things I turn on or off, like the security system, the
HT amplifier, etc.
I don't disagree that there is a place for multi-function switches with a
stack of "soft" buttons. But I'd rather use a touchscreen or a handheld
remote for complex commands and keep the wall uncluttered. Note that when I
design an alarm system I almost never suggest installing an electronic
keypad in the front foyer. I like to keep "techy" looking stuff out of
sight.
> Every lighting control systems has them (Lightolier,
> X10, Centralite, Lutron...).
Not every installer uses them in every room. Give me a house plan and a
list of "must haves" and "wish to haves." I'll come up with a layout that
looks like there's almost nothing there yet the system will protect every
opening, control everything in the house and distribute music and video
throughout the home. It's not a design for everyone, but neither is your
approach.
I suggest you use the words "every," "always" and "never" sparingly. Your
designs will profit from it and your customers will like you even more than
they already do.
> Be interesting which faceplate design come to market
> for Zwave. I personally prefer the looks of the older
> Leviton ones, but clearly I must me in the minority
> since many have gone to the newer, busier designs.
It makes no difference what many others do. Design something that works
effectively with the least amount of user training (that is, something
intuitive) and with the least number of LEDs, buttons and LCD screens in
common areas and you'll outsell all the rest many times over. :^)
>>> and an embedded controller (HAI, Stargate...)...
>>
>> I spoke with the engineers at ELK and several other firms
>> involved in HA / security and was encouraged to find
>> that several are studying ZWave to determine how best to
>> implement the protocol. With Intel promising a ZWave
>> compatible chip in its next wave and multiple
>> manufacturers ramping up support, I'd say your fears are
>> unfounded.
>
> Elk has always delivered for me, though its MM software
> was a bit odd in some respects. Lets see what comes.
The new software looks much better than the old MM (not to be confused with
the ASA nutcase of the same name) stuff. These guys have really done their
homework.
> Have you considered writing an equivalent to Web-Link
> for Elk now that you are done with the fire system?
They already have done it. The ELK-M1 system comes with a built-in web
server. You can access the M1 system by LAN or over the Internet. The
current web server behaves as a virtual keypad.
>> Of course, if you mainly sell HAI or Stargate which
>> don't support ZWave, I can understand the reluctance
>> to see that ZWave is a major improvement over most
>> current lighting control technologies.
>
> As I stated prior to your edits, I hope Zwave or something
> like it makes it in the market, since X10 is such a PITA.
> If it lives up to its marketing, it could also take a hunk
> out of low end hardwired as well. That will be a good
> thing and I will sell lots of it.
I'm already doing so and to date the products have lived up to expectations.
To say the least I am very pleased with them.
> My experience has been as an installer that embedded
> controllers is the right thing...
My experience has been that there is no single "right thing." We've had
this discussion before. You seem to say that your solution is the best for
every app. I believe there is place for a variety of solutions. My
experience as an installer and a "marketeer" (to use your snipe) is that
each installation is different. Each requires thoughful planning to assess
the client's needs and come up with a plan that will work within the
framework of his building and his lifestyle.
> It eliminates a lot of cluelessness on the part of
> the home owner...
One of the blessings of catering to DIYers in home automation is that I
rarely have a clueless customer. Most tend to be techy types who enjoy
tinkering but still want a slick, powerful system. On average I've had more
trouble teaching end users who purchased installed systems than I do
teaching people to install their own. I guess it just goes with the turf.
:^)
> The pundits talk about the digital divide being
> between rich and poor, but a significant fraction
> of rich people have no idea how technologies
> work either...
I don't spend a lot of time listening to pundits. Most have an agenda of
their own anyway.
> Lights need to work 100%. Customers get very
> unhappy when they don't...
Since the primary target of Z-Wave is to displace X10, you should be
applauding rather than trying to find some vague fear about which to worry
in it. The system is orders of magnitude more reliable than X10 or the
"other" RF lighting control. It is far more flexible. It is more scalable
than X10. All of the significant problems with X10 -- signal suck, signals
blocked, stray signals, and so on -- are eliminated. The major weaknesses
of Lutron -- severely limited scale and none too robust RF -- are obviated
by Z-Wave's addressing and repeater network architecture.
If there is anything non-wired that can approach 100% reliability, this
seems to be it. Is it the answer for every installation? Absolutely not.
Nothing is. Is it a robust, scalable system that deserves serious
consideration? Yep.
> That is why I install HAI with ALC as my preferred
> solution. It meets the 100% uptime requirement.
Unfortunately, HAI has no analog input capability. It's also significantly
less configurable than even the Napco P9600 which costs about a fourth as
much as an Omni Pro II. Better yet, the distributors don't try to cut your
throat as a dealer (and that with the full knowledge and consent of HAI).
> If Elk or GE has a better offering, I will go to it.
Napco has a better offering than HAI for many users. It's also more cost
effective. ELK now has a better offering than HAI as well. You'll still
push HAI as the only solution for all jobs no matter what else comes along.
> I don't have any particular brand loyalty.
Nor brand flexibility it seems.
> However, I need the components I mentioned earlier
> (embedded controller, wall keypad, low cost remotes...).
All of these systems have embedded controllers. The question is which is
the most effective for a particular application. You insist that HAI is the
only one for all. I say that's just plain silly.
> You seem positive they will be there, which in your
> market niche is an appropriate position...
How patronizing.
The fact is that ELK has invariably fulfilled their promises in the past.
I've been dealing with them and their predecessor, Moose Products, for over
25 years. They don't push vaporware and neither do I.
>> Speaking of HAI, I spent some time with them at
>> the recent Electronic House Expo. It was interesting
>> watching them try to down ELK's new controller
>> which looks to be a significant improvement over
>> the Omni series. One rep actually told me that the
>> ELK-M1 will not be available any time soon. I
>> neglected to tell him that I had just ordered one. :^)
>
> I dislike marketeers, of any stripe.
Don't look in the mirror then.
> Agreed that it should be better than X-10, but the need
> for low cost remotes and other items to fill out the
> product line remains.
Z-Wave remotes will come. Meanwhile, there are various remotes which can be
integrated with Z-Wave compatible HA systems. A little though is required
but you can control most anything with most anything else if you set your
mind to it.
>>> Lots of people are talking about it (marketeers)...
>>
>> And you are not?
>
> I don't market here...
Oh, nonsense. Every time you insist that what you do is better than
whatever anyone else offers you are marketing. Every time you insist that
your one solution -- HAI -- is the best thing since sliced bread you're
marketing. It's in your tone and in the little snipes as well. Pretending
you're not doing so is at best self-deception.
> Never have, never will. I have never posted my
> company name, website address, or phone number.
> I offer my opinion and experience and gain solely
> from the opinions and experience of others. Can
> you say the same?
I post my opinions and experience for two reasons. First, I enjoy the
discourse. Second, a lot of the regulars here are clients of mine. I get a
lot of referrals from people who post here and even more from some who lurk.
At the recent Electronic House Expo I was pleasantly surprised when several
folks from this newsgroup approached me. Sure, I do business here. But
anyone who knows me also knows that I post what I believe is true -- not
that which is an "appropriate position" for my "marklet niche" as you
asserted.
>> Z-Wave has an advantage over most wired
>> solutions in that it can be installed without
>> running new wires.
>
> I have a starter set and it works as advertised.
> When Z-wave or something like it matures, I
> will certainly install it. It will significantly
> increase my business since it will make retrofits
> much easier.
By then I'll have a few thousand installed Z-Wave systems in place. :^)
>> This means homeowners can install it without
>> hiring a paid technician. Some of the detractors
>> of Z-Wave are folks who make a living
>> installing HA systems.
>
> I love DIYs, they are the driving force and the font
> of creativity in the HA marketplace. They also
> increase the acceptance of HA, which makes it easier
> to sell it to builders and homeowners.
When was the last time you suggested to a prospective client that he go
online and purchase a DIY system? :^)
Robert L. Bass
>> Electronic House Expo. It was interesting watching them
>> try to down ELK's new controller which looks to be a
>> significant improvement over the Omni series. One rep
>> actually told me that the ELK-M1 will not be available any
>> time soon. I neglected to tell him that I had just ordered
>> one.
> Is there any technical info available on the web?
I have some preliminary information on my website. I'm not accepting orders
yet. Actual prices have yet to be determined and the various peripherals
have to be added. I have the printed ELK-M1 communications protocol doc.
It's pretty thorough and easy to digest -- much more transparent than Napco
or Caddx. The doc is a preliminary draft with a request for dealer
feedback. I didn't request permission to share it so I can't publish it but
ELK will almost certainly post it on their website when they build the
pages.
As soon as I receive my TCP/IP module I'll connect the ELK-M1 Gold to the
Internet and post the IP address here so you guys can play with the
controls.
> I wasn't really looking at security stuff a EH-Expo
> so I managed to miss them. I am really interested
> in a security system which can talk over the home
> lan to other HA components, I just wasn't thinking
> too much about that at EH expo last week.
Well, you missed a really fine piece. No problem though. Wait a week or
two and I'll give you access to check mine out until I get around to
installing it as my HA controller. Then it goes behind the firewall to keep
the ASA Taliban out. :^)
Dave Houston
you don't mind a few questions. (The one dealer who hypes it here has less
than zero credibility.)
What has it cost you for the USB interface, the remote, and 4 switches?
Is it possible to set up the "network" using only the remote and without the
USB interface?
I've been unable to find any literature that offers much insight into the
system and I suspect most people will be unwilling to spend several hundreds
of dollars to get started with something that is so mysterious.
Eric Ryherd
I bought a couple more switches which are around $40.
I think that's still a bit pricey but it's still cheaper than Lutron or even
the smartlinc stuff.
So far I've spent about $500.
The part I like the most about the Z-Wave stuff is that since it's so easy
to install (no wires) that I can do a couple of switches at a time. That way
I don't break the budget.
Being truely plug-and-play is more than worth an extra $10/switch to me. X10
always needed another house code, a filter, or it just wouldn't work when
the TV was on. I don't (yet) have any problems with Z-Wave. It will be
interesting to see what happens when we get a real big electrical storm in
the area though.
You can build the system without the USB interface and just use the remote.
The remote does have "timers" in it which I assume you can program to turn
lights on/off at preselected times. But I never bothered to figure that out.
I'm using my PC for that.
Eric
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:4057e914...@nntp.fuse.net...
Dave Houston
Thanks. I'm sure there will be a lot of people who will want to hear
continuing reports as you gain experience with the system.
Most of the X-10 problems are on the powerline - not in the RF so it will be
interesting to see how Z-Wave's 2-way system stacks up against 1-way RF
systems that do not use the powerline but control modules directly via RF.
There are several of these sold in Europe. The GE SmartHome line is the
first I've seen here. I've not seen complaints about the 1-way systems in
use in Europe. I'm impressed with the quality of the GE SmartHome remote I
bought to test.
I think the comparison is really between the 1-way RF only systems and
Z-Wave (and ZigBee, if it ever condenses). As you've already noted Z-Wave
isn't completely 2-way, either.
The other comparison is likely to be with PCS UPB which I hear solves the
powerline problems and is priced comparably to Z-Wave. (That report is from
a dealer, not from an end user.)
Also, Intellon has already demonstrated the ability to stream multiple HDTV
signals over the powerline. Sooner or later, someone will realize there are
better ways to do high bandwidth powerline control. I bet X-10 is already
working on this. The costs of USB/Ethernet adapters that use the powerlines
is close to the per node cost of Z-Wave.
BTW, after posting my questions, it dawned on me that SmartHome was the most
likely place to find documentation. They have a PDF manual for the Sylvania
starter kit that explains everything fairly well.
Is there any way for you to control the properties of the "network"? I've
read that each unit can act as a repeater, that each has 100' range (color
me highly dubious), and that a signal can only be repeated 4 times (or by 4
modules). I'm really curious how that's organized with so little computing
power.
I think I can create a serial interface in about 30 minutes. ;)
Ed Dixon
interface, and say 12 lamp modules, it runs about $750. A similar system
for X10 based setup is perhaps $150 (or less depending on source). While it
sounds like the Z-Wave is more reliable, that's a lot of difference.
Ed
"Dan Irwin" <harrygu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a779348.04031...@posting.google.com...
Dan Irwin
other hand , because the pattent on X10 is soon to end price and
quality and veritaty of x10 equipment is sure to improve.
"Ed Dixon" <edd...@naxs.com> wrote in message news:<T4H5c.7245$CI3....@fe03.usenetserver.com>...
Dave Houston
prices changed much.
Southern
> One of the blessings of catering to DIYers in home automation is that I
> rarely have a clueless customer. Most tend to be techy types who enjoy
> tinkering but still want a slick, powerful system.
Which again validates my position that different market niches call for
different approaches. DIYers have live in tech support. Embedded systems
in my experince are a better choice for real world reliability for the non
techy types who want turn key solutions. Not the only way, but overall
better in terms of customer statisfaction.
> Unfortunately, HAI has no analog input capability. It's also
significantly
> less configurable than even the Napco P9600 which costs about a fourth as
> much as an Omni Pro II.
Napco can't do hardwired lighting and is marginal for X10. We install Napco
for our lower end sales, mostly in tract homes. Solid reliable embedded
system.
> Better yet, the distributors don't try to cut your
> throat as a dealer (and that with the full knowledge and consent of HAI).
We have never had any problem with Worthington or HAI. Great people who
have always delivered for us, several times above and beyond that I could
have asked. Not sure how you could have gotten so cross ways with them.
> > Never have, never will. I have never posted my
> > company name, website address, or phone number.
> > I offer my opinion and experience and gain solely
> > from the opinions and experience of others. Can
> > you say the same?
>
> I post my opinions and experience for two reasons. First, I enjoy the
> discourse. Second, a lot of the regulars here are clients of mine. I get
a
> lot of referrals from people who post here and even more from some who
lurk.
> At the recent Electronic House Expo I was pleasantly surprised when
several
> folks from this newsgroup approached me. Sure, I do business here. But
> anyone who knows me also knows that I post what I believe is true -- not
> that which is an "appropriate position" for my "marklet niche" as you
> asserted.
I clearly state what I do and why I do it. I give my reasons from both the
business and technical side. I have also clearly stated that there are
things that a DIYer can do that I will not and why. Full disclosure, no
profit motive, and adds to the discourse.
> > I love DIYs, they are the driving force and the font
> > of creativity in the HA marketplace. They also
> > increase the acceptance of HA, which makes it easier
> > to sell it to builders and homeowners.
>
> When was the last time you suggested to a prospective client that he go
> online and purchase a DIY system? :^)
Today. I have a DIY package I handout and a similar page on our website. I
even include Worthington Dist. and Basshome on it.
Southern
any relation to the patent expiring or not. They certainly aren't cheaper.
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:40589b5a...@nntp.fuse.net...
petem
was about to ask...
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:4057e914...@nntp.fuse.net...
Dave Houston
the patent expired. IIRC, ADI plans a PLC interface of their own this year.
Robert L. Bass
> an actual user so I hope you don't mind a few
> questions. (The one dealer who hypes it here has
> less than zero credibility.)
Translation: I had the timerity to disagree with our resident curmugeon,
Dave Houston.
> What has it cost you for the USB interface, the
> remote, and 4 switches?
I have it for just shy of $268 delivered.
> I've been unable to find any literature that offers
> much insight into the system and I suspect most
> people will be unwilling to spend several hundreds
> of dollars to get started with something that is so
> mysterious.
If Dean Roddey takes me up on my offer to lend him the hardware, perhaps he
will share what he learns with you. Otherwise you'll need to find some
dealer who is willing to do business with you.
Brandon Blackmoor
>
>> What has it cost you for the USB interface, the
>> remote, and 4 switches?
>
> I have it for just shy of $268 delivered.
Yep, that's a down side. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not too
keen on replacing $200 worth of X10 gear with $1000 worth of z-wave gear.
But I'm a home automation newbie.
bblackmoor
2004-03-17
Robert L. Bass
> have always delivered for us, several times above and beyond that I could
> have asked. Not sure how you could have gotten so cross ways with them.
Very simple. I don't like being repeatedly lied to. I also don't support
distributors who deliberately and knowingly solicit their own dealers'
clients. If you are happy dealing with people who do that, carry on. I'll
stick with honest distributors who don't try to cheat me or my customers.
As to HAI, I haven't much against them save their knowing complicity in
Worthington's dirty tricks. They make a decent HA product that does
mediocre security. It's overpriced IMO by a factor of two. Some dealers
seem to think that high price equals high end. I disagree.
> > > I love DIYs, they are the driving force and the font
> > > of creativity in the HA marketplace. They also
> > > increase the acceptance of HA, which makes it easier
> > > to sell it to builders and homeowners.
> >
> > When was the last time you suggested to a prospective client that he go
> > online and purchase a DIY system? :^)
>
> Today. I have a DIY package I handout and a similar page on our website.
I
> even include Worthington Dist. and Basshome on it.
Neat coincidence. I sent a prospective DIYer to a licensed dealer
yesterday. The gentleman was clearly in need of professional assistance to
complete his job.
I've been mulling over setting up a page of links to installers for clients
who don't want to DIY. The problem is it's almost impossible to tell who is
knowledgeable and ethical vs. who is going to rip the client off.
Unfortunately, the alarm industry is rife with bad dealers (look at the
trash from ASA who regularly try to ruin this forum).
Bob Dozier
news:c38on7$2395b6$1...@ID-97660.news.uni-berlin.de...
How do you figure? Below is some Z-Wave hardware I am considering just
before
I was about to jump off into an Ocelot and a bunch of Switchlinc switches.
From
what I gather, the Switchlinc switches are at least $60 each. Could I be
missing
something?
I guess the plus side to Z-wave in my situation is that I have not invested
in X10.
Z-Wave Wall Switch - 42.95 x 4 = 171.80
Z-wave switch lamp module - 38.95 x 4 = 159.80
Z-Wave Remote Control - 55.95 x 1 = 55.95
Total = 387.55
...Bob
Chuck Yerkes
>>What has it cost you for the USB interface, the
>>remote, and 4 switches?
>
> I have it for just shy of $268 delivered.
Hey, get me the docs, with no NDA, for that USB interface
enough to get it supported in BSD and I'll get the driver
into at least 1 of the BSDs where it will likely get to Winux
and the others.
But free and open docs on the USB setup and commands
is a pre-req.
Then they get the open source geek market. Early adopters,
often with disposable income for non-critical things.
Brandon Blackmoor
>> worth of z-wave gear.
>
Um... I add?
> Z-Wave Wall Switch - 42.95 x 4 = 171.80
I just bought a pack of 6 for X10 for $50 total.
> Z-wave switch lamp module - 38.95 x 4 = 159.80
I just bought 2 for X10 for $12 total.
> Z-Wave Remote Control - 55.95 x 1 = 55.95
I just bought one for X10 for $20 (the learning kind: RF for X10 and IR
for VCR, DVD, etc.).
The most expensive thing I have bought for X10 so far is a pair of
switches to use in a 3-way setup. They are non-dimming "designer" style
PLC switches from Switchlinc, and they cost roughly $30 each. I don't
expect to buy devices that expensive very often.
bblackmoor
2004-03-17
Alarm Pro
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > We have never had any problem with Worthington or HAI. Great people who
> > have always delivered for us, several times above and beyond that I
could
> > have asked. Not sure how you could have gotten so cross ways with them.
>
> Very simple. I don't like being repeatedly lied to. I also don't support
> distributors who deliberately and knowingly solicit their own dealers'
> clients. If you are happy dealing with people who do that, carry on.
I'll
> stick with honest distributors who don't try to cheat me or my customers.
> As to HAI, I haven't much against them save their knowing complicity in
> Worthington's dirty tricks. They make a decent HA product that does
> mediocre security. It's overpriced IMO by a factor of two. Some dealers
> seem to think that high price equals high end. I disagree.
Lots of vendors and manufacturers read what gets posted here. Just because
Worthington, HAI, and others refuse to come here and respond to your
mudslinging does not mean that some of us don't know their side of the
story.
HAI pricing is actually pretty good, unless they get it from you which is
30% more than other places.
Alarm Pro
> > Yours is the first testimonial we've seen here from
> > an actual user so I hope you don't mind a few
> > questions. (The one dealer who hypes it here has
> > less than zero credibility.)
>
> Translation: I had the timerity to disagree with our resident curmugeon,
> Dave Houston.
Correct Translation: Dave kicks my butt with facts regularly.
> > What has it cost you for the USB interface, the
> > remote, and 4 switches?
>
> I have it for just shy of $268 delivered.
And other will have it cheaper soon enough.
Philip Lewis
>How do you figure? Below is some Z-Wave hardware I am considering just
>before I was about to jump off into an Ocelot and a bunch of
>Switchlinc switches. From what I gather, the Switchlinc switches are
>at least $60 each. Could I be missing something?
>Z-Wave Wall Switch - 42.95 x 4 = 171.80
>Z-wave switch lamp module - 38.95 x 4 = 159.80
>Z-Wave Remote Control - 55.95 x 1 = 55.95
>[Zwave] Total = 387.55
Well it's not apples to apples... these are not ALL 2 way but:
X10 Wall Switch (WS12A-HA) - 19.99 x 4 = 79.96
X10 2 way Lamp Modual (LM14A) - 32.99 x 4 = 131.96
X10 Remote Control (UR74A-HA) - 49.99 x 1 = 49.99
X10 Total = 261.91
387.55 / 261.91 = zwave is ~1.48X the cost of x10.
I suspect the OP was talking about 1way x10:
X10 Wall Switch (WS12A-HA) - 19.99 x 4 = 79.96
X10 Lamp Modual (LM14A) - 12.99 x 4 = 51.96
X10 Remote Control (UR74A-HA) - 49.99 x 1 = 49.99
X10 Total = 181.91
where zwave is still 2.13X the cost of X10.
The prices quoted for X10 are all for normal price... you can get much
on sale, but i gather not much more than 50%... so 4.26X the cost.
This still doesn't make the 1000 /200 ratio though...
Of course, there is the RCA special X10 had for a long time:
4 switches, 4 lamp, 4 appliance, 4 pocket remotes for $50.
387.55 / 50 = 7.751x the price... easily making the mark.
(again, these are not 2 way, so not exactly a fair comparison)
--
be safe.
flip
Aus! Aus! Sie Daemonen der Unwissenheit!
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")
Bob Dozier
Well, I stand corrected and realize that I am missing something finding the
right switches for my application. I thought I needed a minimum of a
2380W SWITCHLINC 2-WAY DIMMER (the best price I can find is about $48).
What and where are folks getting a 6pk of X10 for $50? I know, I know -
this is off topic. Thanks!
Dave Houston
>Hey, get me the docs, with no NDA, for that USB interface
>enough to get it supported in BSD and I'll get the driver
>into at least 1 of the BSDs where it will likely get to Winux
>and the others.
It may be fairly simple to hack.
The Zensys SDK includes a controller module and 4 modules that are the basis
for switches, etc.
The controller module has an RS-232 interface. My _guess_ is the USB
interface uses the FTDI chip (or something similar) to convert the RS-232 to
USB. If so, there's an RS-232 data stream between the FTDI chip and the
controller.
The FTDI chip costs under $5 even in low volume and is, by far, the easiest
way to do USB. I think it unlikely that ACT would have designed a completely
new controller module that does USB from the ground up. If they did, that
might account for some of the high cost. ;)
If they used the FTDI chip, then a USB (or RS-232) sniffer and an RS-232
cable is about all that will be needed to deconvert it back to RS-232 and
reverse engineer the protocol.
Or, there are several manufacturer's of inexpensive single chip receivers
and transmitters (even transceivers) that only need a crystal and a few
passives. The 904.82MHz frequency will necessitate a custom crystal
(probably why it was chosen) but the European version can likely use a
standard crystal. Since they are not using rolling codes, capturing the RF
codes is trivial.
For example, Microchip has the rfPIC12F675H (ASK/FSK transmitter + 8-pin PIC
with 4 10-bit ADC channels) for about $2. Chipcon has the CC1000 FSK (can be
used for ASK) transceiver (and other similar chips). Micrel has an ASK
receiver that can use a ceramic resonator instead of a crystal.
The FCC limits automatic transmissions of this sort to much lower power
levels than are allowed for manually operated remote controls. That makes
the 100' range claims suspect unless they refer to free air tests. 100' free
air range probably translates to 25-30' inside the typical residence.
Dave Houston
>"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:UNKdnUTfudF...@giganews.com...
>> > Yours is the first testimonial we've seen here from
>> > an actual user so I hope you don't mind a few
>> > questions. (The one dealer who hypes it here has
>> > less than zero credibility.)
>>
>> Translation: I had the timerity to disagree with our resident curmugeon,
>> Dave Houston.
>
>Correct Translation: Dave kicks my butt with facts regularly.
And Dave also knows how to spell 'temerity'. ;)
Dave Houston
>Of course, there is the RCA special X10 had for a long time:
>4 switches, 4 lamp, 4 appliance, 4 pocket remotes for $50.
>387.55 / 50 = 7.751x the price... easily making the mark.
>(again, these are not 2 way, so not exactly a fair comparison)
According to the man who has Z-Wave, it's not _exactly_ two-way either. ;)
Ed Dixon
Originally I would pay about $10 - $15 for lamp modules. Over the last 4-5
years I have been finding deals for more along the lines of $3-$5 each. Not
sure if this is related, but it sure seems lower to me.
Also for what it's worth, I an finding that the failure rate for these $4
modules is better than the $15 ones I purchased 10 years ago.
Ed
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:40589b5a...@nntp.fuse.net...
Robert L. Bass
> enough to get it supported in BSD and I'll get the driver
> into at least 1 of the BSDs where it will likely get to Winux
> and the others.
You can purchase the developer's kit from Zen-Sys and develop anything you
want to market.
> But free and open docs on the USB setup and commands
> is a pre-req.
They have apparently not opted to go that route. It seems they're
interested in providing support to companies from whom they will obtain
ongoing license revenues. If they give it away to you for free they won't
be able to charge Sylvania. No offense but from their perspective Sylvania
may be a more lucrative business partner than you.
> Then they get the open source geek market. Early
> adopters, often with disposable income for non-critical
> things.
It seems they're after more profitable long-term relationships. Don't
forget, we're talking about Zen-Sys -- not one of the product manufacturers.
They expect to earn multiple millions from each business partner once the
product takes off. To their target market $2500 for the developer's kit is
peanuts.
>>>I've been unable to find any literature that offers
>>>much insight into the system and I suspect most
>>>people will be unwilling to spend several hundreds
>>>of dollars to get started with something that is so
>>>mysterious.
>>
>> If Dean Roddey takes me up on my offer to lend him
>> the hardware, perhaps he will share what he learns
>> with you. Otherwise you'll need to find some dealer
>> who is willing to do business with you.
FTR, that comment was directed at Mr. Houston, not you. From his
belligerent attitude toward anyone who fails to agree with everything he
says, it's apparent that most dealers who've made the mistake of doing
business with him have lived to regret it. When his medical condition
recently took a turn for the worse he begged for help with his website.
Thinking there was an opportunity to break the ice between us, I privately
offered to help him out. His response was a scathing personal attack in
this forum. Needless to say, I won't offer to help the man again. It is
unfortunate that a man with his brilliant mind is trapped in such physical
straits. It is far more unfortunate that he tries to take his troubles out
on everyone around him.
Robert L. Bass
I can spell. I just can't tpye. :^)
Robert L. Bass
Wrong. The handheld programmer is not exactly 2-way. The devices are all
2-way. The programmer is primarily intended to be used for configuration
rather than daily operation. Of course, you already know that.
Dave Houston
>The FCC limits automatic transmissions of this sort to much lower power
>levels than are allowed for manually operated remote controls. That makes
>the 100' range claims suspect unless they refer to free air tests. 100' free
>air range probably translates to 25-30' inside the typical residence.
The ACT datasheet says 100' "line of sight" which will mean that you'll
probably need these spaced no more than 20-25' apart in order to cover the
typical residence.
Robert L. Bass
> mean that you'll probably need these spaced no more
> than 20-25' apart in order to cover the typical residence.
One nice thing a bout a repeater system such as Z-Wave is you get better
coverage as you add more devices. Most people are not going to only
automate two or three dimmers. Also, unless the walls are lined with
expanded metal lath, you should get a good deal better than 25' range.
I'll test the range limits when I get my kit installed and post the results
here.
Eric Ryherd
First of all, Z-Wave is BRAND new and thus volume is really low so prices
will be higher.
Once they start making 10,000/mo then the price will likely come close to
1.5X X10 (it'll never be as cheap as X10).
But... and this is the BIG BUT...
Z-Wave actually works reliably and doesn't require a degree in power-line
communication and distribution to get it to work.
And... when I press a button on the remote - the light instantly turns on.
Vs. the 3/4 sec REQUIRED by X10 - and that's when it actually works.
This is why X10 has never really caught on. It's just too unreliable.
Consumer devices have to just work. people will not tryt to figure it.
They'll throw it away before then. I have a whole X10 starter kit I bought 4
years ago that I need to sell on EBay fast before I have to just dump it in
the trash!
Z-Wave IS 100% 2-way. The engineers who developed the Sylvania remote
control need to have a lesson in Human Interface Design...
"Philip Lewis" <flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:200403171439....@smtp1.andrew.cmu.edu...
Dave Houston
>This is why X10 has never really caught on. It's just too unreliable.
I guess if they had caught on they would have sold more than the 100 million
units they had sold by the time of this Dave Rye column...
http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/feb98/columns/x10/x10.htm
Of course that was 6 years ago. They may have sold a few more units since
then. ;)
Dave Houston
>Z-Wave IS 100% 2-way. The engineers who developed the Sylvania remote
>control need to have a lesson in Human Interface Design...
Er, Sylvania's Z-Wave won the CEA 2004 Mark of Excellence Award. ;)
Brandon Blackmoor
>
> What and where are folks getting a 6pk of X10 for $50?
x10.com runs specials all the time. Just wait a week or two, and what
you need will show up sooner or later.
bblackmoor
2004-03-17
Robert L. Bass
Don't disagree with Houston. If you disagree he'll call you mean names like
"fishy" (while thinking he's being really original). :^)
Chuck Yerkes
Ed Dixon wrote:
> I've been using X10 gear for about 20 years.
>
> Originally I would pay about $10 - $15 for lamp modules. Over the
last 4-5
> years I have been finding deals for more along the lines of $3-$5
each. Not
> sure if this is related, but it sure seems lower to me.
>
> Also for what it's worth, I an finding that the failure rate for these $4
> modules is better than the $15 ones I purchased 10 years ago.
Those $15 ones ate it regularly on mine. Mostly from a triac
rated for 200V in the US (too close to actual limits to survive).
I've soldered 400V triacs into MANY of these - mine and friends'.
OTOH, finding an inventory dump for $3 is not the same as walking
in and knowing that it will be $3.
/me still wants the basic 2 way X10 dimmer that has no AC interface
circuit and instead has, say, RS485 circuitry. For $20.
I got folks wiring and not rich enough to afford the brands of
dimmers that can be wired together,.
Spike
>
> I've been mulling over setting up a page of links to installers for
clients
> who don't want to DIY. The problem is it's almost impossible to tell who
is
> knowledgeable and ethical vs. who is going to rip the client off.
> Unfortunately, the alarm industry is rife with bad dealers (look at the
> trash from ASA who regularly try to ruin this forum).
The only trash from ASA I've seen here is you. And I see from your little
feud with Mr Houston that it looks like you're trying to work your magic
here too.
From what I've seen in my 20 years, the alarm industry is rife with people
much like the ones posting here and in ASA. Gadget types that truly enjoy
their work. On what do you base your claims, Bass? Your own history when you
installed? Put up or shut up, this industry is no worse than any other.
Dave Houston
>"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:M-OdncmMFf9...@giganews.com...
>>
>> I've been mulling over setting up a page of links to installers for
>clients
>> who don't want to DIY. The problem is it's almost impossible to tell who
>is
>> knowledgeable and ethical vs. who is going to rip the client off.
>> Unfortunately, the alarm industry is rife with bad dealers (look at the
>> trash from ASA who regularly try to ruin this forum).
>
>The only trash from ASA I've seen here is you. And I see from your little
>feud with Mr Houston that it looks like you're trying to work your magic
>here too.
I'm afraid the feud is rather one-sided. I've had Bass in my killfile for
4-5 years so I only see his BS when someone quotes him or when one of his
alter-ego identities posts here pretending to be someone else.
I have never done business with him and will never do business with him. I
will never recommend that anyone else do business with him. I won't even
recommend doing business with the manufacturers who do business with him.
Eric Ryherd
computer doing other things that the engineers I guess never considered.
The usual problem of interoperability testing (or lack thereof).
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:405cc511...@nntp.fuse.net...
Dave Houston
device/system is actually in the hands of a few end users.
I read somewhere (but couldn't find it again or would have cited it) that
the designer of the remote was someone who was well known for other
industrial designs.
Lest anyone think I'm negative on Z-Wave, I'm not. You'll probably find I
was the first person to report on it here in CHA 2-3 years ago.
I like to dig into new things and provide as much factual information as
possible so that others can make an informed decision. If you think it's
worth the cost and it meets your needs, that's all that matters.
I think it's a bit over-priced and prefer a less power-hungry controller but
I'm sure many will disagree. Still, I think most people will agree that my
evaluations are accurate. (And I can always inundate doubters with a sea of
supporting facts.)
Alarm Pro
news:ssi6c.50176$TxJ....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> The only trash from ASA I've seen here is you. And I see from your little
> feud with Mr Houston that it looks like you're trying to work your magic
> here too.
The bogus Group Moderator and others occasional come here to harass Bob, and
it can get pretty trashy.
You are right about Bob's style and message is the same in both groups.
Brandon Blackmoor
>
> I'm afraid the feud is rather one-sided.
Yes, and if *you'd* just stop, there'd be no feud at all.
You are clearly knowledgeable on the subject of home automation, but
these constant jabs at the other fellow just make you look bitter,
petty, and pathetic. You aren't helping anyone by doing taking every
possible oppotunity to heave insults at this Bass person: you are simply
adding to the noise of UseNet, and undermining your own credibility in
the process.
Give it a rest, already.
bblackmoor
2004-03-18
Spike
I don't think it will be long before these same manufacturer simply do what
he is doing and offer drop-shipping to DIY at a mark-up. Elk call his ilk
"retail distributers" whatever the heck that is. Elk call his ilk, that was
pretty good; think I'll quit while I'm ahead.
Dave Houston
>Dave Houston wrote:
>>
>> I'm afraid the feud is rather one-sided.
>
>Yes, and if *you'd* just stop, there'd be no feud at all.
No, they would not stop. I've never instigated an exchange but only
responded to his repeated lies.
You don't like my posts, put me in your killfile. You've just made mine.
Group Moderator
From: "Robert L. Bass" rober...@comcast.net
Date: 3/16/2004 12:45 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: OpudnQZwX8L...@giganews.com
http://clearwater.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=41001663
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
**CONSUMER BEWARE**
A Convict runs online stores known as Basshome.Com and Bass-Home.com and
BassBurglarAlarms.com . He has a bad rap sheet with the Better Business Bureau
in Florida, You can see that HERE:
http://www.clearwater.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=41001663 He recently
changed his name to bassburglaralarms.com to hide from the BBB. He has problems
and issues dealing with customers credit cards. You can see that HERE:
http://goofysplace.com/cust3.htm He owned an installation company in
Connecticut for a short while until they caught up to him for lying on his
alarm license application. You can see that HERE: http://goofysplace.com/L5.htm
To try to promote business for his online store he posted BOGUS information in
a competitors guest book. You can read all that HERE:
http://goofysplace.com/andy.htm He has not installed a single protective
device in over six years. He only knows what he reads here. He has started wars
with just about everyone in this newsgroup as well as others. He tried to get
an employee fired from his job. You can read that HERE:
http://goofysplace.com/grahamsboss.htm Over One Hundred people in various news
groups despise this fast, sweet taking SCAMMER. You can see that HERE:
http://goofysplace.com/asalist.htm AND HERE http://goofysplace.com/aviation.htm
You can read more about him HERE: http://goofysplace.com/testimony.htm There is
even a website about him and what he does HERE: http://goofysplace.com/
So you really want to do business with or take advice from Robert L. Bass from
Basshome.com?
Think again - **Consumer Beware** - You have been warned.
Every link posted here can be found at http://www.google.com Just enter
groups, then Goofy or Robert L, Bass and you will be amazed at what you see.
Group Moderator
Message-id: <M-OdncmMFf9...@giganews.com>
I've been mulling over setting up a page of links to installers for clients
who don't want to DIY. The problem is it's almost impossible to tell who is
knowledgeable and ethical vs. who is going to rip the client off.
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
Mike Said:
Bass, do you think anyone would listen to word you have to say? Clean up you
rap with the BBB first.
http://www.clearwater.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=41001663
**CONSUMER BEWARE**
Mike, Sr.
33 Years in the trade
http://www.AlarmServicesInc.com
http://www.AlarmSuperStore.com
"Your One Stop Alarm Shop"
Group Moderator
Date: 3/18/2004 11:03 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <405ac5cf....@nntp.fuse.net>
"Spike" <som...@microsoft.com> wrote:
Mike Said:
My hat goes off to. Bass is a Scammer that has to be STOPPED.
Group Moderator
Message-id: <Tuqdnd0rBa5...@giganews.com>
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.clearwater.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=41001663
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
Group Moderator
Message-id: <P6KdnRgjKJF...@giganews.com>
> My biggest problem is that there aren't enough devices yet. I want
> thermostats!
Hi Eric,
I'll have a Z-Wave compatible thermostat soon. RCS is working on it. There
are other players in the development stage as well.
Spike
Houston who did NOT respond. Sounds to me like Mr Houston has taken the high
ground.
Perhaps your admonishment might be more suitably directed to Bass. Maybe if
you told him you won't buy from him anymore if he continues to slander folks
here or in the trades?
"Brandon Blackmoor" <bblac...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:c3ctlc$26k6sh$1...@ID-97660.news.uni-berlin.de...
Spike
news:b077eb43588b6594...@news.teranews.com...
And I am not helping matters by posting and should just let it go but
sometimes he's just too much to ignore. Everybody else is an idiot,
incompetent or a crook... his childish jabs get to me.
My apolgies. I'll try to refrain from such knee-jerk posts.
The GM is ASA's sleeping junk yard dog and you what they say about sleeping
dogs.
Group Moderator
Message-id: UNKdnUTfudF...@giganews.com
Translation: I had the timerity to disagree with our resident curmugeon,
Dave Houston.
Mike Said:
You also had the timerity to not only disagree BUT piss off these people also:
RLB's Shit List
Andy Bowman Wrote:
You know better. I won't drag anyone into this that doesn't want to be,
however I will post a few names that have publicly shown disdain for your
actions here in the past that I pulled from 10 minutes of research on google.
Mike Sabodish Sr.{Group Moderator}
Jacob Ashbury {Jake, the saint}
Andy Bowman
Tom Fowler
Mark Leuck
Jack Stevens
Nomen Nescio
Rodney Brittain
|Jim (alarmin)
Marc Mazzarese
Mike Dupre
Thomas Gerchak
VSS Doug
Steve Rykeman
Bryan Karas
Mike Simpson (a former customer of yours)
David Rosso
Ray Brittain
Bill Boyd
Tom Brown
Jerry Morin
John Morgan
Mikey
|Horace Schmidlap
Cliff Grubb
James Brown (not the singer)
Tom Karamichos (another former customer)
Paul Rampelbergh
Chris Larsen
Dave Mahoney
Nick names:
Urabus?
Peach
money_man_one
q (yes, just "q")
RLB was known as BoBo & Scud in Aviation NG
Aviation Student Shit List
Subject: GM more for the 'list'
From: "Jacob Ashbury" ch...@mindspring.com
Date: 6/5/2002 9:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <adl3vg$iio$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>
This is old - they don't go above the current guys, O.K.?
Jake-
Aviation Student <shun...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
01bda0fc$972aa8c0$4be7869f@default>...
Join us in ignoring Robert L. Bass <alar...@BassHome.com>.
He has:
- posted erroneous and misleading advice,
- repeatedly made false accusations against others,
- attempted to have those who disagree with him disciplined in
their workplace,
- threatened the property of those who disagree with him,
- repeatedly cancelled the postings of others, and
- attempted to "mail bomb" both individuals and this newsgroup.
His actions have been very destructive to this newsgroup, and
are not socially acceptable. He has expressed the conviction that
his actions are right.
We the undersigned join in a rec.aviation ignoring of Mr Bass.
We will not reply to any posting Mr Bass makes as any response
at all only seems to encourage him. We request all others to
do likewise.
To add your name to ours and indicate your support for this course
of action, reply by e-mail to "shun...@hotmail.com". Email may
not be answered. Please do not respond to this message.
Rich Ahrens
Chris Anderson
John Ammeter
Robert Barker
Jon Barry
Dave Barnhardt
Robert P Bass
Charles Black
Mark Burkley
Rod Cadanau
Don Campbell
Michael D. Casey
Bob Chilcoat
John Clarke
Tom Cooper
Christopher Corder
Sheron Cunniff
Rod Farlee
WendyBG (Farlee)
Joseph Feld
Thomas Fitzgerald
John Galban
Mark J Grueninger
Daniel Grunloh
Rick Hake
Roger Halstead
Warren Hecksel
Sydney Hoeltzli
Dan Hoyte
Richard Ilfield
Carl A. Johansson
John R. Johnson
Rick Hake
Suzanne King
Wessel Kooyman
Ric and Shari Lee
Ray Leonard
John Lowry
Mike Kelley
Sue Kramer
Frank Maier
Don Meyer
Jeff Morris
David E. Munday
John Neidart
Martina O'Donoghue
John Ousterhaut
Bill Phillips
Colin Rasmussen
Del Rawlins
Bob Reed
Sam Rios
Kelly Rhodes
Bill Robie
John Rourke
Bill Shellenberger
Jerry Springer
Jeffry Stetson
General Stark (Marty)
John Stricker
See-Mong Tan
Dwight Taylor
William Thelen
John Theure
Jared Thomas
Paul Tidball
Tracy Thompson
James Thursby
Kib Tyler
Bob Urban
Rick Wagner
Gene Whitt
Group Moderator
From: "Robert L. Bass" rober...@comcast.net
Date: 3/16/2004 10:53 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <UNKdnUTfudF...@giganews.com>
>> What has it cost you for the USB interface, the
> remote, and 4 switches?
I have it for just shy of $268 delivered.
Mike Said:
Hmmmmm a few posts back you told the group you **NEVER** try to sell anything
in here.
LIAR
Group Moderator
Message-id: <Nb6dnfwYLIn...@giganews.com>
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.clearwater.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=41001663
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
http://www.clearwater.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=41001663
Brandon Blackmoor
>
> You don't like my posts, put me in your killfile.
Your *useful* posts are welcome and apprecuated. Your childish jabs at
other newsgroup posters (which seems to be the majority of what you have
contributed since I started reading this newsgroup) are not. Wouldn't
you rather be someone who is respected and admired for his knowledge,
rather than the local crank? Wouldn't you be happier if you focused on
what is good and useful, rather than wallowing in vitriol?
UseNet does not *have* to be a cesspool. We make it what we want it to be.
Oh, well. At least I tried.
bblackmoor
2004-03-18
Brandon Blackmoor
>
> Did you read the post?
Yes. Houston hurled a few insults at Bass, who mainly seemed bemused by
the attention. Then some troll called "Group Moderator" did what trolls
do, and got what trolls should all get (killfiled). And you piped up
with a "me, too", as if that helps matters.
Look: I could care less who insulted who. If it were Houston who was
being helpful and Bass who was being obnoxious, the situation would be
exactly the same. Give it a rest, already. This is the home automation
newsgroup, isn't it? Try talking about that rather than making snide
comments. That's just noise, and serves no productive purpose.
bblackmoor
2004-03-18
Spike
> Spike wrote:
> >
> > Did you read the post?
>
> Yes. Houston hurled a few insults at Bass, who mainly seemed bemused by
> the attention.
---- only reference I could find was "fishy friend" which is quite apt
actually. My personal fav is Large Mouthed Bass
Then some troll called "Group Moderator" did what trolls
> do, and got what trolls should all get (killfiled). And you piped up
> with a "me, too", as if that helps matters.
----- missed that. I like Mike but know better than to rouse him, even
agreeing with him is not always the right course of action. :-)
I leave him alone and he doesn't bother my seeeester.
Your fishy friend takes potshots at him constantly, therein lies the rub.
>
> Look: I could care less who insulted who. If it were Houston who was >
being helpful and Bass who was being obnoxious, the situation would be
> exactly the same. Give it a rest, already. This is the home automation
> newsgroup, isn't it? Try talking about that rather than making snide
> comments. That's just noise, and serves no productive purpose.
----- can't argue with that, I'll try.
>
> bblackmoor
> 2004-03-18
Dave Houston
Sylvania's User Manual - Page 10
<quote>
The unique product design was developed by award winning designer Steve
McGugan. He was lead designer with Bang & Olufsen before starting his own
design house.
</quote>
nob...@whocares.com (Dave Houston) wrote:
>I read somewhere (but couldn't find it again or would have cited it) that
>the designer of the remote was someone who was well known for other
>industrial designs.
>
wkearney99
> responded to his repeated lies.
>
> You don't like my posts, put me in your killfile. You've just made mine.
With any luck eventually everyone will be in Houston's killfile. It'll
certainly make it easier on his delicate health situation and all.
David Steele
details can be some what confusing. The handheld controller that you
walk around your house and enroll all the Zwave devices is known as a
primary controller. It is generally always mobile. It can also act
as a remote control for devices. When finished enrolling the devices
into the primary controller, it will then transfer that information
into a stationary secondary controller know as a "SUC" if you have one
on your system. If you loose your primary controller, the "SUC"
secondary controller can regenerate the enrollment information into a
new primary controller. The current handheld primary controllers on
the market can not generate a "SUC" secondary controller per the
information from the training. A version will be available in a few
months that can generate a "SUC". A USB to Zwave was shown at the
training that will be available shortly
Zwave is a very good system with close to 100% reliability, but it is
not as simple to install as X-10 devices. Training would be a good
idea if you plan on using Zwave in a complete home automation system.
The development kit has alot of good information and pre-written
programs that can be downloaded into the Zwave protoboards. RS-232 to
Zwave is available in the kit. Their PC software controls all aspects
of the system as well as snooping to see what devices are installed.
If you buy the Zwave kit you will also have to come up with $1800 to
$2000 for the Keil C compiler to make any custom changes.
Happy Zwaving...
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<Nb6dnfwYLIn...@giganews.com>...
> > According to the man who has Z-Wave, it's not _exactly_ two-way either. ;)
>
> Wrong. The handheld programmer is not exactly 2-way. The devices are all
> 2-way. The programmer is primarily intended to be used for configuration
> rather than daily operation. Of course, you already know that.
>
> Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
> http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
>
> Regards,
> Robert
>
> =============================>
> Bass Home Electronics
> 2291 Pine View Circle
> Sarasota · Florida · 34231
> 877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
> 941-925-9747 Fax
> 941-232-0791 Wireless
> Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
> http://www.bass-home.com
> http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
> =============================>
Dave Houston
system. If you mix products from different manufacturers (e.g. ACT &
Sylvania), do you need a handheld controller for each manufacturer's
products?
After finishing the setup, the handheld controllers are superfluous? We've
heard that the Sylvania handheld controller does not track the state of the
modules. Is this also true for the ACT handheld controller? I wonder if
there's any difference, other than price, color, logo, and manufacturer's ID
code between the ACT & Sylvania controllers.
For companies who buy the SDK with a view to designing their own modules,
you not only need the Keil compiler, you can also anticipate $3000+ per
device for FCC certification tests. While the current FCC boobs are too
obsessed with Janet Jackson's boobs to enforce the certification rules, I
wouldn't count on that always being the case.
Robert L. Bass
> controller to set up the system. If you mix products
> from different manufacturers (e.g. ACT & Sylvania),
> do you need a handheld controller for each
> manufacturer's products?
No. The one handheld controller will program multiple brands.
> After finishing the setup, the handheld controllers
> are superfluous?
No. The handheld can then be used as a portable controller though it is not
needed to operate the devices.
> We've heard that the Sylvania handheld controller does
> not track the state of the modules. Is this also true for
> the ACT handheld controller?
Apparently so. The handheld's primary purpose is for setup. After that it
is mainly used as a convenience item. The intent is that the system will
track device status.
> For companies who buy the SDK with a view to designing
> their own modules, you not only need the Keil compiler,
> you can also anticipate $3000+ per device for FCC
> certification tests...
For companies that plan to manufacture mass market devices these costs are a
pittance. It can cost thousands of dollars just to do the design and
tooling for an injection molded plastic dimmer paddle. A few thousand
dollars for an SDK is of no concern. Zen-Sys is not marketing development
kits to home-based businesses. They're interested in companies like Leviton
and Intel.
> While the current FCC boobs are too obsessed
> with Janet Jackson's boobs to enforce the
> certification rules, I wouldn't count on that always
> being the case.
And that will enhance or impede the development of Z-Wave product in what
manner?
David Steele
can be put away or used as a remote control. The primary controllers
do not keep status of the system, that is the job of secondary
controllers which may be connected to automation equipment. Any
battery powered devices such as thermostats or motion detectors do not
act as repeaters because they go to sleep and only occasionally wakeup
to check into the network. A repeater is a secondary controller that
is powered from AC power. Their is alot more capability and
complexity to Zwave than X10.
nob...@whocares.com (Dave Houston) wrote in message news:<4060439f....@nntp.fuse.net>...
Dave Houston
that will require a trained installer.
Is there a recommendation for how close together the repeaters need be to
assure coverage?
Robert L. Bass
> like a rather complicated system that will
> require a trained installer.
It's all a matter of perspective. I took a look at it and realized it's
simple enough for the average DIYer to get started in an hour or two.
> Is there a recommendation for how close
> together the repeaters need be to assure
> coverage?
If you don't know anything about it at all (witness your numerous
questions), how can you pass judgment on it? You make all manner of
statements about Z-Wave's capabilities and/or what you *assume* to be its
deficiencies, yet you have not even seen one sample of a Z-Wave system in
operation nor (apparently) even read a single manual. It certainly seems as
though you have an axe to grind, Mr. Houston.
Group Moderator
Message-id: MIOdnTEnuMY...@giganews.com
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.clearwater.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=41001663
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
**CONSUMER BEWARE**