Looking at Zwave products and need recommendations?
jt
Looking at possilbly purchasing Zwave products and would to get your
personal pro and cons on these devices.
Thanks,
jt
Mark Thomas
the house. Zwave just doesn't have a broad enough product line yet. For
example, I haven't seen a 1000W dimmer or convenient integration points
like a dry-contact transmitter, zwave relays, etc.
I've started down the UPB path and so far I'm very satisfied.
- Mark.
bhitc...@smarthome.com
Check out Smarthome's INSTEON products (www.smarthome.com), they are
both powerline and RF, so you get the best of both.
Mark Thomas
bhitc...@smarthome.com wrote:
> Check out Smarthome's INSTEON products (www.smarthome.com), they are
> both powerline and RF, so you get the best of both.
This is simply untrue. You seem to be deliberately perpetuating a myth.
The products are *either* powerline *or* RF, with the exception of your
powerline->RF gateway (the SignaLinc). For example, all the switches
are powerline-only. All of the lamp and appliance modules are
powerline-only. This really confused me when I first started looking
into the products. If you had said the *protocol* is both powerline and
RF, you would have been correct.
- Mark.
Dave Houston
Insteon web site, it's clear that they plan to have RF remotes that will
talk to the RF gateways (i.e. SignaLincs, which do both powerline and RF).
I would assume that there will probably be future RF-to-UPB devices, too.
Hopefully, they will use 418MHz so that all of the RF capable programmable
remotes (e.g. Pronto) can talk to them directly.
Mark Thomas
Dave Houston wrote:
> True - for now. But if you read the recently released white paper on the
> Insteon web site, it's clear that they plan to have RF remotes that will
> talk to the RF gateways (i.e. SignaLincs, which do both powerline and RF).
Even so, with the exception of the SignaLincs, any particular product
will still be either RF or powerline, but not both.
- Mark.
Dave Houston
both is unworkable, leading to endlessly repeated cacophony.
I do agree that SmartHome tends to imply there's more there than meets the
eye with their "best of both" babble but think their system may prove to be
more reliable than UPB.
Mark Thomas
Dave Houston wrote:
> If you give it a little thought you'll realize that having all devices do
> both is unworkable, leading to endlessly repeated cacophony.
I know--my issue was with the Smarthome guy's claims.
> I do agree that SmartHome tends to imply there's more there than meets the
> eye with their "best of both" babble but think their system may prove to be
> more reliable than UPB.
Well, it's has proven to be cheaper than UPB, which is enticing. The
reliability of UPB has been 100% for me so far--you can't beat that!
- Mark.
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
<bhitc...@smarthome.com> wrote in message
<1125329206.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:
The original poster did not ask about INSTEON .
You < bhitc...@smarthome.com > are violating the charter of this
newsgroup by posting a commercial advertisement for a competing product
that you manufacture and sell.
Are Smarthome's representatives going to become pariahs as have their
*.linc products?
jt
jt
"jt" <jts...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ySoQe.86841$dJ5....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
Kurt Delaney
quite a bit on the boards at www.homeseer.com . You might try there.
(I suppose someone will accuse me of violating this newsgroup's charter by
mentioning HomeSeer...)
Kurt
"jt" <jts...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cANQe.66536$Yx1....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
Robert L Bass
> know it is discussed quite a bit on the boards at
> www.homeseer.com . You might try there.
From what I've heard from clients so far, Zwave works well. It's
also getting major support from industry giants. The Zensys
website lists partners, including Intel which indicates they plan
to include Zwave support in their next generation uProcessor.
Most of the negatives have been posted by folks whose concern is
the present lack of certain features such as a 3-way dimmer.
Some want to see a more useful remote -- the handheld is
primarily intended as a programmer.
One frequent poster has repeatedly derided Zwave, apparently
without ever having seen, much less tested it.
My impression of Zwave is it's significantly better but somewhat
more costly than X10. It's way less expensive than Radio RA, the
closest competing technology. Because of the interest of so many
major industry players holes in feature availability should fill
in within a year or two.
Is it right for you now? That's something only you can decide.
You could hobble along on X10 and wait a while for more
feature-laden products.
> (I suppose someone will accuse me of violating this
> newsgroup's charter by mentioning HomeSeer...)
Not by me you won't. Other gentlemen posted objections, not so
much to mentioning a competing product as to the manner in which
it was done.
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
Mark Thomas
jt wrote:
> Oh well, so much for asking about Zwave. Sorry that I asked.
Why are you sorry you asked? You have learned:
1. There isn't much Z-Wave experience in this forum. I'm not
sure that's a coincidence.
2. The Z-Wave product line is incomplete.
3. There are competing technologies that are at least worth
consideration.
4. In this forum, you don't always hear what you want to
hear.
- Mark.
Dave Houston
5. ZigBee devices are beginning to appear. They promise open standards and
compatibility with other ZigBee manufacturers. Z-Wave is proprietary (and
very closely allied with HomeSeer).
Robert L Bass
That's not correct. Homeseer is a software developer whose
products are Zwave compatible. Calling Zwave "very closely
allied" with Homeseer implies an inter dependant relationship
which simply does not exist.
There are currently 125 manufacturers offering or developing
products based on Zwave technology. Homeseer was one of the
early adaptors but they are not listed among the principal
developers.
Here's a link to the list of participants:
http://www.z-wavealliance.com/content//modules/iaCM-MCL/
Brian
> very closely allied with HomeSeer).
Wrong!
Z-Wave is Not allied with Homeseer.
There is other software vendors that support Zwave just as Homeseer supports
others.
There are big things ahead for Zwave. Several already that fix the biggest
issues with Zwave.
I can confirm this from First hand expirence. But cann't say much more yet.
Yes I do have many Zwave products. So if anyone has Zwave questions feel
free.
UPB is great but I'm not sold on a powerline carrier. What happens when
BroadBand transmitts over the powerline as it really is happening and most
likely only going to expand.
--
---------------------------------------
Brian A. Dye
br...@tech-home.com
http://tech-home.com
---------------------------------------
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:43147bce...@nntp.fuse.net...
Brian
it.
UPB & Insteon are limited in products just as Zwave is as they are all
pretty new.
--
---------------------------------------
Brian A. Dye
br...@tech-home.com
http://tech-home.com
---------------------------------------
"jt" <jts...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cANQe.66536$Yx1....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
Mark Thomas
Brian wrote:
> UPB & Insteon are limited in products just as Zwave is
That may be true, but Zwave's lack of 1000W dimmers, decora keypads,
I/O modules (equiv of powerflash and universal), hardwired modules,
etc, are GLARING omissions.
As I implied in my first post in this thread, I would be able to
replace my current whole-house X10 setup with UPB, but not Zwave.
Insteon's compatibility with X10 gives you access to the largest set of
products available, so that route would not lead you into any brick
walls either.
If the Zwave product line fills out quite a bit, I'm sure it will be a
fine choice. I have nothing against the idea or the technology, and
only a slight apprehension about its longevity.
- Mark.
Mark Thomas
Brian wrote:
> UPB & Insteon are limited in products just as Zwave is
That may be true, but Zwave's lack of 1000W dimmers, decora keypads,
Dave Houston
>UPB is great but I'm not sold on a powerline carrier. What happens when
>BroadBand transmitts over the powerline as it really is happening and most
>likely only going to expand.
HomePlug has been transmitting over powerlines (in house BPL) for a few
years now. It does not interfere with X-10 nor is there any reason to expect
that it will interfere with Insteon or UPB as it uses frequency bands which
are much higher than the frequencies used by X-10, Insteon and UPB. If you
weren't technically incompetent (in addition to being illiterate) you might
know that.
I can honestly say the same thing that some dealers who post here say. No
one has complained about any Z-Wave stuff they bought from me. ;)
Brian
> weren't technically incompetent (in addition to being illiterate) you
> might
> know that.
But I'm in constant commication with very technically competant engineers in
THEIR field. I answered your questions about Zwave that NoOne else could.
Not myself but by a person who IS very competant to speak about Zwave as he
designed it. When other dealers ignored your questions. Illiterate well
prove it to me.
> I can honestly say the same thing that some dealers who post here say. No
> one has complained about any Z-Wave stuff they bought from me. ;)
People have complained about Zwave just as they have about x10 and UPB. They
all have issues.
I speak from first hand expirence! I actually would hope they buy UPB as the
profit margin is greater as Zwave is close to X10 margin..
>Z-Wave is proprietary (and
> very closely allied with HomeSeer).
I'm still waiting for your Very Competent information on this baseless
statement about Allied with Homeseer.
But then again I'm a Homeseer User and not compentent to speak about
Homeseer or Zwave!
--
---------------------------------------
Brian Dye
br...@tech-home.com
http://tech-home.com
---------------------------------------
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:4316c826....@nntp.fuse.net...
Brian
> fine choice. I have nothing against the idea or the technology, and
> only a slight apprehension about its longevity.
Very much agreed just as any new technology. The only reason I'm not as
concerned about longevity is because of the several major backers but this
could easily change.
Just as stated in several converstation all of them are up in the air and
who is going to be the biggest player is still unkown. The best product
(insert your own opinion) may not win.
Don't get me wrong I'm not against UPB at all, it's great and everyone of my
customers are happy with it.
Zwave on the other hand had issues with Dimmers blowing when the bulb went
out and alot of confusion with the remotes.
---------------------------------------
Brian Dye
br...@tech-home.com
http://tech-home.com
---------------------------------------
"Mark Thomas" <m...@thomaszone.com> wrote in message
news:1125500097.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Brian
> years now. It does not interfere with X-10 nor is there any reason to
> expect
> that it will interfere with Insteon or UPB as it uses frequency bands
> which
> are much higher than the frequencies used by X-10, Insteon and UPB. If you
> weren't technically incompetent (in addition to being illiterate) you
> might
> know that.
Being illiterate I can't find any information confirming this. My most
recent reviews shows it's unclear as to what it may interfer with. I would
be happy to read (Well actually have the computer read it to me as I'm
illiterate) anything you can point me to regarding this. I know the
frequency's of them but would like first hand information saying it doesn't
interfer before I change my stance.
--
---------------------------------------
Brian Dye
br...@tech-home.com
http://tech-home.com
---------------------------------------
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:4316c826....@nntp.fuse.net...
Dave Houston
expert to answer those questions is commendable. That you continue to make
statements that cannot be supported by any evidence is not. You once claimed
that a device made by X-10 worked better than any device made by X-10. You
didn't even know what you were selling.
The Z-Wave questions I raised were not nitpicking but valid technical
questions. The answers probably helped at least a few people better
understand their approach. I don't use Z-Wave. I can't afford to buy each
new technology that comes along just to test it. However, while I've never
had an apple fall on my head, I still understand the law of gravity. I
learned electronics (including RF) more than 40 years ago in the USAF, I
held an FCC radiotelephone license, my first personal computer was an
Osborne I, I spent most of my career in technical fields even though the
latter years were in management. I am technically competent. If you choose
to argue with me you'd better know your facts - I'll know mine.
I've said that Z-Wave devices will need 20-25' spacing, that they use a
proprietary protocol and a non-standard frequency. I've said they price
their SDK too high. I really haven't said much else yet get accused of
saying "bad" things. I've said far "badder" things about ZigBee. Until about
two years ago I said that ZigBee was a "solution in search of a problem"
that had been designed by a committee, had gone through about a dozen name
changes and was never likely to make it to market. It has made it to market
and there are many major companies supplying hardware while most of the
major companies "supporting" Z-Wave have only supplied press releases.
Who do you think manufactures the HomeSeer labeled Z-Wave products? Why do
you suppose that Zensys resisted introducing a serial version of the PC
interface despite the fact that, at heart, it was a serial interface with a
USB adapter grafted on?
Have you visited the HS forums? There are a lot of negative posts about
Z-Wave. I'd quote some but I'd be accused of bad-mouthing something I don't
own.
Proof? Read any of your posts. All exhibit multiple spelling errors and show
poor command of the English language. IIRC, you are attending college. I
suspect you get similar comments from most of your professors. You do not
present a very good image for your business and it's no surprise that people
might still buy elsewhere even after getting most of their information from
you and even when your price is lower.
As for technical details on HomePlug, see http://www.homeplug.org. There
have also been a few posts here from users saying that they use it with X-10
with no interference. I tend to note and remember such things while they
probably go over your head.
X-10 uses 120kHz, Insteon uses 131.65kHz, UPB says the capacitor discharge
pulses they use are in the 40kHz region. (UPB pulses contain multiple
frequencies.) HomePlug uses 4.5-21MHz (with some notches for ham bands in
the USA) for in house BPL but you can verify that at the above URL. (See the
white paper on HomePlug 1.0) They specifically state that HomePlug is
"compatible with other low speed powerline technologies like CEBus, X10 and
LonsWorks as they operate in different frequencies."
Robert L Bass
>> being illiterate) you might know that.
>
> Technically incompetent Yes I would agree (Finally we agree
No one is an expert on everything. Your willingness to go to
tech support for answers when you're unsure and your
forthrightness are refreshing.
> ... other dealers ignored your questions. Illiterate well
> prove it to me.
Don't let him get under your skin. He's just very sensitive to
being told he's wrong. :^)
>> I can honestly say the same thing that some dealers
>> who post here say. No one has complained about any
>> Z-Wave stuff they bought from me. ;)
>
> People have complained about Zwave just as they have
> about x10 and UPB. They all have issues.
>
> I speak from first hand expirence! I actually would hope
> they buy UPB as the profit margin is greater as Zwave is
> close to X10 margin..
>> Z-Wave is proprietary (and very closely allied with HomeSeer).
>
> I'm still waiting for your Very Competent information on
> this baseless statement about Allied with Homeseer.
What he means is he *believes* that they are allied because he's
unfamiliar with either product. Dave is very knowledgeable in
certain areas but completely unwilling to admit there are large
areas of the HA world about which he knows nothing at all.
> But then again I'm a Homeseer User and not compentent
> to speak about Homeseer or Zwave!
Heh, heh, heh... :^)
I worked with Homeseer from the very beginning. Rick got his
first HA-compatible security hardware from me. I've also helped
some other HS dealers with problems on occasion. I used to sell
HS and Zwave but they no longer fit my business model so I just
refer clients who need them to you. Hopefully some are buying.
Dave Houston
>Have you visited the HS forums? There are a lot of negative posts about
>Z-Wave. I'd quote some but I'd be accused of bad-mouthing something I don't
>own.
And, at least one dealer (who from all appearances is technically competent)
has said that Z-Wave has a shorter warranty and generates more returns than
competitive switches.
I think a pattern may be emerging. ;)
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
in message <4316c826....@nntp.fuse.net>:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 04:06:46 GMT, "Brian" <br...@tech-home.com> wrote in
message <q7vRe.978$ZL4...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>:
>>Z-Wave is proprietary (and
>> very closely allied with HomeSeer).
>I'm still waiting for your Very Competent information on this baseless
>statement about Allied with Homeseer.
It helps to understand the history of Dave's schadenfreud toward Homeseer
to assess the objectivity of his related opinions posted in
comp.home.automation.
About six years ago while Dave was developing and endlessly hawking in this
newsgroup a commercial home automation software program (Commander-X), Rich
was quietly coding Homeseer. Homeseer trounced Commander-X..
Dave also worked on and promoted for a long time a hardware wireless
product that also failed to thrive and his family apparently shut down
support for that too. Now Homeseer is capitalizing on Z-wave.
Dave had plans to develop a pc-based home automation controller, but ABIK,
mention of that has disappeared from his web site. In the mean time,
Homeseer has introduced a pc-based home automation appliance.
That's three swings (HA software, HA wireless hardware, pc-based HA
controller).
Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.EControl.org
Robert L Bass
> questions. The answers probably helped at least a few people better
> understand their approach. I don't use Z-Wave. I can't afford to buy each
> new technology that comes along just to test it. However, while I've never
> had an apple fall on my head, I still understand the law of gravity.
You may not need to have a Zwave switch fall on your head to
understand it either. However, a cursory examination of the
available information would show you've erred repeatedly while
making strongly worded declarations as though you actually knew
the products.
> --- snip resume ---
> I've said that Z-Wave ... price their SDK too high.
The SDK is not intended for your personal use. It's intended for
corporate developers who are making a commitment to develop and
market Zwave compatible hardware. That and the level of support
which Zensys must devote to bringing developers up to speed are
probably the reasons they priced it as it is.
>
> Who do you think manufactures the HomeSeer labeled
> Z-Wave products?
There are two companies whose products Homeseer used to sell.
Last time I checked the hardware was not private labeled. That
may have changed but rest assured that Zensys is not depending on
Homeseer as their prime developer.
> Why do you suppose that Zensys resisted introducing a
> serial version of the PC interface despite the fact that,
> at heart, it was a serial interface with a USB adapter
> grafted on?
That one's easy. Homeseer asked them to do so. HS is a serious
developer -- not an angry Usenet poster sitting in his apartment
complaining that the SDK costs more than he can spot.
> Have you visited the HS forums? There are a lot of
> negative posts about Z-Wave. I'd quote some but I'd
> be accused of bad-mouthing something I don't
> own.
Perhaps if you actually tried out some of their stuff your
complaints would hold merit.
> Proof? Read any of your posts. All exhibit multiple
> spelling errors and show poor command of the
> English language...
Whereas you show poor command of your ill temper. I know some
well educated people who can't spell very well. I also know some
who can spell but don't type well, myself included.
> IIRC, you are attending college. I suspect you get
> similar comments from most of your professors...
I suspect you'd get smacked in the mouth a lot if you behaved in
public the way you do here.
> You do not present a very good image for your business
> and it's no surprise that people might still buy elsewhere
> even after getting most of their information from you and
> even when your price is lower.
I send him customers every so often.
Is your ego so weak that the only way you can inflate it is to
insult anyone with the temerity to disagree with you?
Robert L Bass
wrote:
That explains a lot of his animosity toward Homeseer and Zwave.
The other thing that really gets him roiled is that you and I
have both disagreed with him, then ribbed him a bit for his rude
replies.
Anyone who dares to disagree with him gets the "you're
illiterate and incompetent but I'm an expert" lecture. He did
the same thing to Elk's engineers when he couldn't understand
their documentation.
Dean Roddey
about to come out. So it's definitely not just HS that supports it. Zen-Sys
didn't by any means make it easy for us to add this support, and I think
that they really fail to understand what market development means, but we
managed to do it anyway. I'm using Z-Wave here at my place via CQC and it's
be extremely reliable for me. But that's in a fairly small system.
Bit biggest is that, since no current Z-Wave devices send async state change
notifications, it becomes a polled system, and the low bandwidth limits how
low the latency can be kept once you get up to a certain number of modules.
But, beyond that, it's working fine for us and our customers now. In a
larger system, you'd probably have to give up two way on some of the less
important modules in order to the polling latency for the others down.
-------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
Dave Houston
supporting it in a freeware app but the name escapes me at the moment.
Do you think they made it easier for HS?
Brian
or even care to review. Please here is a site that will explain my point.
Warranty 6-years?
How many other switches do this?
http://www.smarthome.com/1179.html
"I've said that Z-Wave devices will need 20-25' spacing, that they use a
proprietary protocol and a non-standard frequency."
Wrong again. Why because I have them installed and don't need this 20-25'
spacing.
But because I'm not a technical expert I can't tell you exactly why your
wrong but I have real world experience in debating this, it is simply not
true!
I can also tell you what is wrong with the USB interface and what is being
done about this. And I could tell you about other Zwave products that are in
my hand but unfortunately I can't because of confidentiality.
As to my experience in college I have a 3.5 at a major university not a
college. My degrees are in Criminal Justice / Psychology and soon MBA. I
see the Usenet forums as informal and I'm sorry that my grammar skills are
not to your level. Most of my posts are made at my real job where I have
little time.
You are helpful and knowledgeable about many subjects but when you attack
others personally that shows your desperation.
This I do know for certain as Psychology is my field of study.
---------------------------------------
Brian Dye
br...@tech-home.com
http://tech-home.com
---------------------------------------
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:431716a4...@nntp.fuse.net...
Brian
--
---------------------------------------
Brian Dye
br...@tech-home.com
http://tech-home.com
---------------------------------------
<MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
news:igmeh11d28a01oh7g...@4ax.com...
Dean Roddey
> No one has said that only HS supports it. There was someone else who was
> supporting it in a freeware app but the name escapes me at the moment.
>
> Do you think they made it easier for HS?
>
If you mean were they more cooperative with HS, the answer is probably yes.
HS, as I understand it, paid the price for the toolkit stuff, which probably
got them a little more love. We just couldn't justify paying all that money
for what could essentially have been written down in ~10 pages of high level
info plus about 3 smallish documents of spec details that already existed,
i.e. the information that someone wanting to interface to ZW, as apposed to
build ZW hardware, would need. So effectively we had to figure it out
ourselves, but we did in the end.
I've made my dismay about their lack of support for folks like us known to
them in fairly strong terms, assuming what I think really matters. I would
just think that, had they taken the opposite approach with automation system
vendors (as apposed to hardware OEMs) and really helped us to get quality
support for their product in place, and gave us the docs we need instead of
making us pay for the right, that right now UPB and Zigbee would be looking
at a much more entrenched status quo, because Z-Wave would be robustly
supported in every automation product, and more people would have adopted it
because it was there and supported and in a good position between high end
stuff and X-10.
Dave Houston
knowing that I never sold Commander X but gave it away free for a couple of
years before turning it over to my son who tried to commercialize it but
didn't really have time to devote to it. He also knows that while I designed
the BX24-AHT, created firmware for it, created a Windows interface for it,
provided a bill of materials and free support for it, I never sold anything
(my grandson did sell bare printed circuit boards at a very reasonable price
until he discovered girls). Having been disabled by a spinal cord injury for
nearly 20 years, then congestive heart failure, and now some prostate
troubles I decided that the freeware I had planned that runs on an
inexpensive SBC was a bit too ambitious and that I probably couldn't finish
it.
Dave Houston
included a URL so you could verify that I quoted him accurately. You really
should take a reading comprehension course.
You are the only one I've seen who disputes the need for 20-25' spacing. I
recall you saying you got something like 100'. Others have agreed with me.
The FCC limits the output power of all such devices and all of them are
going to have about the same range. It's a matter of physics.
I posted the details of their USB interface here several months ago and did
so based solely on my knowledge of such things without ever seeing the
actual interface.
You have repeatedly claimed special knowledge of soon to be announced
magnificent products. So far, most of those who have licensed the technology
seem to be merely supplying the same basic devices that Zensys originally
developed with the only major difference being the color. Dean Roddey has
pointed out some limitations (most of which I pointed out months ago).
I don't recall any "major university" in your area.
I assume from the criminal justice thing that you plan to be a cop. If you
really do plan to be a psychologist get good malpractice insurance. Online
diagnoses of people you've never met are probably frowned on by real
psychologists.
I really have no use for any dishonest SOB who attacks me repeatedly on
matters where he admits he has no qualifications and then whines when I
respond in kind. I don't turn the other cheek!
Dean Roddey
months ago)."
But I also said that we support it. I think it's a major step forward over
X-10 and it does seem to work within the natural limitations, though perhaps
it might be outdone by Zigbee or UPB, I dunno. UPB has limitations as well
though mostly different ones, and Zigbee probably isn't going to be that
much different from Z-Wave since they come from the same root stock as I
understand it. We'll see when we see.
We are agnostic about such things and will support whatever we can if
there's sufficient customers to be had to make up for the effort.
-------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:431ab922...@nntp.fuse.net...
Robert L Bass
More accurately, every so often he gets fed up with your abusive
behavior and says something which you don't like to see -- the
truth.
> despite knowing that I never sold Commander X...
Your failure to realize your dreams is no excuse for the way you
attack others who are realizing theirs.
> Having been disabled...
Your physical problems are also no excuse for the way you treat
other posters. You are wrong about Zwave. You're wrong about
Homeseer. You're wrong about the other gentleman and his
business. Most importantly, you're wrong in the way you behave.
I once made the mistake of taking pity on you when you posted a
page on your website explaining your physical and financial
difficulties. Privately offering help so that you would be
spared any embarrassment in spite of our past differences, I
received in return your public attack. It is unfortunate that
you are disabled and in ill health. However, it's also your
problem and of no concern to those you attack and berate.
Robert L Bass
> for folks like us known to them in fairly strong
> terms, assuming what I think really matters. I
> would just think that, had they taken the opposite
> approach with automation system vendors (as
> apposed to hardware OEMs) and really helped us
> to get quality support for their product in place,
> and gave us the docs we need instead of making
> us pay for the right, that right now UPB and
> Zigbee would be looking at a much more
> entrenched status quo, because Z-Wave would be
> robustly supported in every automation product,
> and more people would have adopted it because
> it was there and supported and in a good position
> between high end stuff and X-10.
Dean,
You're certainly right that had they decided to take the route
you would prefer their product would enjoy more support from
small developers. However, they have apparently taken the other
approach and for good reason. If they concentrate on developing
relationships with Microsoft, Intel, GE and the like, they are in
a very strong position to grab a major portion of the marketplace
and do it quickly.
OTOH, if they devote time to folks like you (no disrespect here;
I think you're on the road to major success), they will have less
resources to devote to the industry big boys.
Fortunately for a soon-to-be-significant segment of the DIY
community, you've managed to get past the SDK hurdle and write
your own module. Homeseer isn't a big player yet but they are
well on the way. They have more capital so they bought the SDK
and got the support with it. Either way, two more vendors are
now supporting Zwave.
Best of luck with CQC.
Dean Roddey
documentation I needed, that's it. If they would take a couple days and
write it down correctly they wouldn't have to provide any more than trivial
support to companies like ours looking to support the product. They are
completely oriented towards hardware OEMs it seems to me. They really put no
thought or effort into being supported by automation systems. And that would
include big automation systems as well, not just smaller fry like us.
If, instead of trying to charge thousands for the right to support the
product, with the reason being they would have to provide lots of
hand-holding support (something that no other company we work with seems to
have a problem with, since they understand it's an investment in market
development), they would just have documented it properly, then it wouldn't
have cost them hardly any support, and we could have gotten support in place
quickly and correctly far earlier on. Ok, that was the run-on sentence from
hell, but hopefully the point got across. Basically, they created the
hand-holding requirement by not doing the tiny bit of work required to
document how to do it right.
Literally, what it would have taken to make this happen would have been
three pretty small documents on the protocol and a little overview (already
part of the overall SDK), about a 10 page writeup of the issues specific to
an external control system (the big missing part), a good sample program
(they provide a pretty useless one), and the headers (already part ofthe
SDK). They could have passed that out to every vendor like us who wanted to
support it and left us to our own devices and any competent company could
have provided good support with no support, or at most a couple of e-mails
that some mid-level engineer could have fielded.
-------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
"Robert L Bass" <sa...@bassburglaralarms.com> wrote in message
news:eaofh1dmvm5m0fls6...@4ax.com...
us...@domain.invalid
Robert Bass absolutely doesn't answer his email. So, how can you trust him?
us...@domain.invalid
Robert Bass absolutely doesn't answer his email. So, how can you trust him?
Dave Houston
when you get blindsided by any changes they make to the protocol.
I think you will find ZigBee based devices will come with a myriad of
communications protocols so your experience at reverse engineering Z-Wave
may or may not be a plus.
PCS has published the UPB protocol. Insteon makes their SDK available at a
very reasonable cost (although with ridiculous license terms).
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
Dave Houston developed a commercial product (Commander-X) using interaction
with comp.home.automation participants. A Google search for "Commander-X "
in comp.home.automation yields 3020 entries. The expressed intention was to
create a commercial product for sale. Like many commercial software
developers, Dave gave away the beta releases.
But Commander-X was not successful in turning the corner as a commercial
product despite its technical merits.
(In a "Tell Us How You Use Commander X Contest" that he sponsored, there
were only three entries so he had to give prizes ("Each will receive a free
copy of the initial release of Commander X™ 1.0.0") to folks that he then
publicly denigrated as having submitted mediocre entries ...)
Beginning with version 1.0.0sw, released on December 1, 1999 Commander-X
was distributed as shareware. At that time there was an enhanced version
that was only available after paying the full price.
(Google comp.home.automation for the words " only available after paying
the full price" to see who wrote those words - and who now doesn't want to
;-)
Ten months later, on August 29, 2000, existing Commmander-X customers were
informed by email that the product was being withdrawn.
These are facts. They are still in the public record so Dave's posturing
about libel is idle bluster.
The BX24-AHT saga is another story of legal and ethical dodgem.
Unwilling/unable to pay for/obtain FCC approval for the BX24-AHT device, a
fully assembled version was sold overseas -- and expressly available for
shipment to US -- by the same company www.laser.com that hosted Dave's
site at www.laser.com/dhouston and still hosts Dave's web site
www.mbx-usa.com today.
While Laser was shipping the fully assembled version. Dave claimed that he
was not affiliated with Laser. They "were just kind enough to give [him]
server space".
Dave has posted his opinion in this newsgroup that he couldn't legally sell
his product assembled in the US. But Dave prominently advertised on his
site (at www.laser.com/dhouston) that Laser sold and shipped BX24-AHT
worldwide including US.
Laser, in turn, announced they didn't sell the unit for use in _Europe_
because it didn't have CE approval. Of course, Europeans could buy the unit
from the web site that Dave's son and grandson set up in the US.
Noli turbare circulos meos!
The plug was abruptly pulled on the web store that his son and grandson set
up. Dave was unable to get admin rights from his family for the yahoo
groups BX24-AHT and that went moribund too.
(Folks wondering whether Dave can serve as an objective reviewer of the WGL
"Whole House Transceiver" might note that the WGL device has been
successfully developed commercially, while Dave's "All Housecode
Transceiver" device never turned the corner -- more schadenfreude IMO. )
Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 02:29:28 GMT, nob...@whocares.com (Dave Houston) wrote
in message <4319b664...@nntp.fuse.net>:
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
<43180A2...@domain.invalid>:
>X-Trace: tornado.tampabay.rr.com 1125648931 24.73.168.166 (Fri, 02 Sep
2005 04:15:31 EDT)
>NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 04:15:31 EDT
>Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com
>Xref: attbi_master11 comp.home.automation:49248
>X-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 08:15:32 GMT (attbi_s21)
>
>Robert Bass absolutely doesn't answer his email. So, how can you trust
him?
Kick him in the knee? What a stitch !
Your post, which you intended to be anonymous, was made from IP address
24.73.168.166 which resolves to http://www.prostitchmedical.com/
" Pro-stitch Medical
We are a Manufacture [sic] for
Orthopedic CPM Knee Pad Replacement Kits "
Attacks by anonymous posters are the bane of usenet in my opinion.
Marc
Marc_F_Hult
wwww.ECOntrol.org
Neil Cherry
ZWave and I had discussions about getting that documentation for use
with Open Source projects (the same few sections you discuss above).
That was to say the least a fruitless conversation! I took the time
to explain what Open Source is and they initially agreed that they
couldn't come to a comprimise. But they kept trying to push me to a
consultant who would charge to write the Open Source driver as long as
I signed their NDA (can you see the irony in that statement ? :-/ ). I
wasn't upset with them saying no, I was upset with that last portion
and the fact that they kept contacting me after I said that is not a
feasible proposition. At that point they annoyed me. When I said I can
not work with ZWave they should have taken the hint and dropped it. To
this date I filter their email into the trash folder. Oh, the
consultant was smart enough to figure out this wouldn't work and let
it go.
BTW, the dev kit they were trying to sell me was the $15K full blown
hardware and software Dev Kit. I did let them know that it is fully
possible to reverse engineer their serial & USB communications to get
what the Open Source community wanted but that I won't bother helping
them to sell any ZWave products.
Sorry for the rant.
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry nch...@comcast.net
http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only)
http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II)
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog
Dave Houston
>ZWave and I had discussions about getting that documentation for use
>with Open Source projects (the same few sections you discuss above).
>That was to say the least a fruitless conversation! I took the time
>to explain what Open Source is and they initially agreed that they
>couldn't come to a comprimise. But they kept trying to push me to a
>consultant who would charge to write the Open Source driver as long as
>I signed their NDA (can you see the irony in that statement ? :-/ ). I
>wasn't upset with them saying no, I was upset with that last portion
>and the fact that they kept contacting me after I said that is not a
>feasible proposition. At that point they annoyed me. When I said I can
>not work with ZWave they should have taken the hint and dropped it. To
>this date I filter their email into the trash folder. Oh, the
>consultant was smart enough to figure out this wouldn't work and let
>it go.
>
>BTW, the dev kit they were trying to sell me was the $15K full blown
>hardware and software Dev Kit. I did let them know that it is fully
>possible to reverse engineer their serial & USB communications to get
>what the Open Source community wanted but that I won't bother helping
>them to sell any ZWave products.
>
>Sorry for the rant.
I also had discussions very early on which is where I got the impression
they only wanted to work with a certain entity. What irritates me the most
is that it appears to be impossible to now get them to stop emailing me
weekly (sometimes twice daily) about training seminars, etc. Of course,
their US sales honcho came from X-10 which might explain that.
Robert Green
<much grudgematch stuff snipped>
> (Folks wondering whether Dave can serve as an objective reviewer of the
WGL
> "Whole House Transceiver" might note that the WGL device has been
> successfully developed commercially, while Dave's "All Housecode
> Transceiver" device never turned the corner -- more schadenfreude IMO. )
To quote the Princess Bride's Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do
not think it means what you think it means."
Websters:
Main Entry: scha·den·freu·de
Pronunciation: 'shä-d&n-"froi-d&
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized
Etymology: German, from Schaden damage + Freude joy
: enjoyment obtained from the troubles of others
Someone might experience schadenfreude watching Martha Stewart do federal
time - especially someone guilty of insider trading who didn't get caught.
You might feel it watching the Michael Jackson trial just to see him squirm.
But I don't see how WGL succeeding with their transmitter would elicit
schadenfreude in Dave. I think the more pedestrian term you're looking for
is "Sour Grapes."
Main Entry: sour grapes
Function: noun plural
Etymology: from the fable ascribed to Aesop of the fox who after finding
himself unable to reach some grapes he had desired disparaged them as sour
: disparagement of something that has proven unattainable
Now that sounds more like what you're accusing Dave of, disparaging
something that he was unable to acheive himself.
BTW, I'm not arguing any of the merits of either set of well-chewed charges
and countercharges - <very big yawn> - just that AFAIK, schadenfreude has a
very specific meeting. You could say that others in this thread like Bob B.
are enjoying watching Dave take a turn in the gauntlet, and *that* would be
schadenfreude - for them, but not for Dave. Recounting all of Dave's
alleged gaffs and failures as you have done would be schadenfreude for *you*
but not for him, unless, of course, he was seriously masochistic and got
pleasure from you getting pleasure from watching him suffer giving you
pleasure. But that's way too weird to consider. :-)
I wish there was some process that both you and Dave, each valuable
contributors to CHA, could bury the hatchet anywhere but in each other's
necks. <sigh>
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
>I wish there was some process that both you and Dave, each valuable
>contributors to CHA, could bury the hatchet anywhere but in each other's
>necks. <sigh>
I don't think you will find any instances where I have attacked either Hult
or Bass. Both have been attacking me for 5-6 years. I put both in my kill
file years ago and do not see their crap unless someone (got a mirror
handy?) quotes them.
Hult has used some 40-50 different IDs to get around killfiles. He has
attacked me in other, private forums. At other times he has praised all the
things I've done for the HA community. I think he a good candidate for
Brian's analysis.
He lies, distorts and fabricates, apparently hoping to provoke a response so
he can then call me "abusive".
When the CPU-XA (Ocelot forerunner) was first introduced, I reveiwed it and
told everyone who was looking for something beyond the basics to at least
take a look at it because it offered the most bang for the buck. That
usually provoked a response from Hult trashing the CPU-XA and arguing for a
different system (that he had spent $3000 on). He would argue three sides of
any particular point. I quit posting on the CPU-XA to avoid all his trash
talk but, by that time, there were many others singing its praises.
I spent a lot of years dealing with people from the self-made owners of 10
person job shops to the manufacturing superintendents of Fortune 500
companies. I learned to trust my instincts about people. All my alarms went
off at our very first exchange of email. He is a permanent resident of my
killfile and as long as no one quotes his crap I won't see it and won't
respond.
Dean Roddey
eventually, but just the raw protocol docs. There isn't anything that really
explains the big picture, which is often missing in such documentation.
There's nothing that describes best practices, error recovery strategy,
etc... So you have to really figure these things out by trial and error.
UPB does certainly seem to be a lot smarter about encouraging support.
Perhaps they see themselves as a DIY solution while Zen-Sys wants to think
that they are not. But I think that they primarily are, since the high has
many other solutions.
-------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:4318292b...@nntp.fuse.net...
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
<ROBERT_G...@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
<bNGdnZ2dnZ2d1P77nZ2dn...@rcn.net>:
>To quote the Princess Bride's Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I
>do not think it means what you think it means."
>
>Websters:
>
>Main Entry: scha·den·freu·de
>Pronunciation: 'shä-d&n-"froi-d&
>Function: noun
>Usage: often capitalized
>Etymology: German, from Schaden damage + Freude joy
>: enjoyment obtained from the troubles of others
LOL .. ;-) Thanks. There's another memorable line in that flick. "My name
is ...)
But I wrote what I meant, and meant what I wrote -- with no implication
that this is the only word or sentiment that applies.
Marc
Marc_F_Hult
ww.ECOntrol.org
Robert L Bass
folks.
Robert L Bass
wrote:
WHOIS information for prostitchmedical.com:
Registration Service Provided By: NameCheap.com
Contact: sup...@NameCheap.com
Visit: http://www.namecheap.com/
Domain name: prostitchmedical.com
Registrant Contact:
Pro-Stitch Medical
Jeff Tomich (jts...@tampabay.rr.com)
+1.7276433967
Fax: +1.7275470831
P.O. Box 572
Pinellas Park, FL 33780
US
Administrative Contact:
Pro-Stitch Medical
Jeff Tomich (jts...@tampabay.rr.com)
+1.7276433967
Fax: +1.7275470831
P.O. Box 572
Pinellas Park, FL 33780
US
Technical Contact:
Pro-Stitch Medical
Jeff Tomich (jts...@tampabay.rr.com)
+1.7276433967
Fax: +1.7275470831
P.O. Box 572
Pinellas Park, FL 33780
US
Billing Contact:
Pro-Stitch Medical
Jeff Tomich (jts...@tampabay.rr.com)
+1.7276433967
Fax: +1.7275470831
P.O. Box 572
Pinellas Park, FL 33780
US
Status: Locked
Name Servers:
NS6.SECUREMATE.NET
NS7.SECUREMATE.NET
Robert L Bass
It's not a grudge match. Dave lies about his failed ventures,
the same as he lied about asking for help when he was in bad
shape a while back. He often denigrates viable, useful systems
as well as those who build or sell them out of personal malice
rather than based on their merits. Marc did the newsgroup a
service by exposing Dave for what he is. Dave's reply was to lie
again and to accuse Marc of libel. Marc had every right and IMO
a responsibility to offer detailed proof of Dave's lies.
> --- snip vocabulary lesson ---
> I wish there was some process that both you and Dave,
> each valuable contributors to CHA, could bury the hatchet
> anywhere but in each other's necks. <sigh>
I tried that some time back. When Dave asked for help in a page
on his website, I offered it. I did so discreetly so as not to
embarrass him. I offered him a hand hoping to put past
differences behind us. In response Dave publicly attacked me and
accused me of trying to steal his work. Frankly, I have no
interest in nor have I ever had any interest in buying or selling
anything Dave developed.
His atrocious behavior in response to an offer of kindness leads
me to believe he's not just a cantankerous old man, but probably
more than a little bit disturbed. At this point I couldn't care
less what his problems are. They are not the problem of everyone
else who reads this newsgroup.
If Marc offered Dave the olive branch, Dave would almost
certainly try to hit him with it. That's just the kind of person
he is -- bitter and mean spirited. Marc is one of the nicer
people who post here. TTBOMK he has never tried to mislead
anyone hear especially not out of sour grapes over personal
failures.
Robert L Bass
>
> I don't think you will find any instances where
> I have attacked either Hult or Bass.
He's lying again.
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
message <431a9148....@nntp.fuse.net>:
>
>Hult has used some 40-50 different IDs to get around killfiles.
This is the most fantastical misrepresentation of my actions that (ABIK)
anybody has ever said or written anywhere.
I've never changed anything ever "to get around killfiles". Dave's false
statement speaks volumes of his paranoia and distorted sense of
self-importance. I'm changing my email presence because of Dave Houston? What
conceit!
It is a matter of public record that I have used with remarkable constancy the
same filterable email:
Dec 10 1999 -- Feb 15 2003 237 results for xxxhydrologistxxx.com
Feb 13 2003- present 223 results for nothydrologistnot.com
and that I use my full name (also filterable) in a distinctive informative
signature at the bottom - Marc_F_Hult
The change in spam protection from "xxx" to "not" was made because "xxx" in
the email address implies something I didn't mean. It had nothing whatever to
do filters or with Dave Houston.
I use my middle initial 1) because as best I know, there is no other Marc F.
Hult in the US, and 2) for 25 years and 50-60 scientific publications, my
authorship was indicated as "M.F. Hult" -- an unbendable requirement of the
scientific agency I worked for.
... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
message <431a9148....@nntp.fuse.net>:
>I spent a lot of years dealing with people from the self-made owners of 10
>person job shops to the manufacturing superintendents of Fortune 500
>companies. I learned to trust my instincts about people. All my alarms went
>off at our very first exchange of email. He is a permanent resident of my
>killfile and as long as no one quotes his crap I won't see it and won't
>respond.
This is an *amazing* confession by Dave that explains much.
Our first exchange of email was in 1999 I when I noticed someone posting with
an email address from our local broadband provider. Like a good neighbor, I
introduced myself and we had a discussion around how to program the Cisco
routers we both had. I reviewed today the email that correspondence and find
simply that I was courteously helpful by answering Dave's questions. Nothing at
all awry or amiss for normal folk.
But apparently Dave -- whose "instincts about people" are based on dealings
with _business_ people -- had "alarms [go] off" because in his business
experience if someone volunteers out of the blue to be helpful without a
self-serving financial angle is, something is awry.
I am scientist, not a business person. And I now spend most hours of most days
_donating_ my time and expertise to a variety of matters of public concern
(google "Marc Hult"). (The newspaper route that I had in junior high school
requiring papers to customer by 7AM in sub-zero Minnesota weather brought
needed money, but taught me that I wasn't going to spend my life working
primarily for financial remuneration. and I haven't.)
So Dave apparently judges the _content_ of my messages by first filtering them
through a wildly mistaken notion what of he thought/thinks are my intentions
(rather than focusing on the facts) and then further distorts the information
he receives by filtering his newsfeed. No wonder he gets it wrong.
Way sad stuff.
Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
message <431a9148....@nntp.fuse.net>:
>When the CPU-XA (Ocelot forerunner) was first introduced, I reveiwed it and
>told everyone who was looking for something beyond the basics to at least
>take a look at it because it offered the most bang for the buck. That
>usually provoked a response from Hult trashing the CPU-XA and arguing for a
>different system (that he had spent $3000 on). He would argue three sides of
>any particular point. I quit posting on the CPU-XA to avoid all his trash
>talk but, by that time, there were many others singing its praises.
>
More demonstrable nonsense:
1) The Elk Magic Module and Adicon/Ocelot units both cost in the neighborhood
of $200 not $3000!
2) Dave would recommend the Adicon units to anyone and everyone, disregarding
the fact that the Adicon -- however useful to those who could learn to program
in an arcane proprietary language -- would do absolutely nothing useful for the
vast majority of homeowners who can't or won't program in C-Max.
He did not mention this in his posts, which was and is misleading in my
opinion. Of course, Dave's HA software (Commander-X) supported Adicon but not
Elk ;-) As I recall, Dave eased off his one-sided promotion campaign when
Commander-X was withdrawn. I used then and still use today Savoy's CyberHouse
which is still --five+ years after I spent the last dime on it -- the best HA
software out there for my purposes. And yes, it supported Elk, and yes, a
limited version came almost free with Elk modules.
Yes, I did and do and will discuss various "sides of any particular point".
That is a good thing. Extended to the formal process of science, this is akin
to multiple working hypotheses (FWIW, pioneered by geologists) -- Let's assess
which of several alternatives works best by testing each against the available
facts of the matter. But Dave seems to have a need has to pick a _single_
"winner".
I've grown to understand that Dave has a behavior pattern that resembles a
wanna-be horse bettor. (We live in Kentucky where that is endemic.) His ego
gets involved in announcing the probable winners even when he doesn't have the
money to wage. When he is wagering real money on a venture, nothing seems to
matter but winning. Facts that get in the way are dismissed with ad hominem
attacks as y'all have seen.
"Old Stewball was a racehorse / I wish he were mine ..."
Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.com
Robert L Bass
> an email address from our local broadband provider. Like a good neighbor, I
> introduced myself and we had a discussion around how to program the Cisco
> routers we both had. I reviewed today the email that correspondence and find
> simply that I was courteously helpful by answering Dave's questions. Nothing at
> all awry or amiss for normal folk.
>
> But apparently Dave -- whose "instincts about people" are based on dealings
> with _business_ people -- had "alarms [go] off" because in his business
> experience if someone volunteers out of the blue to be helpful without a
> self-serving financial angle is, something is awry.
That night explain why he attacked me publicly for having
privately offered assistance when he asked for help on his
website.
> I am scientist, not a business person. And I now spend most hours of most days
> _donating_ my time and expertise to a variety of matters of public concern
> (google "Marc Hult"). (The newspaper route that I had in junior high school
> requiring papers to customer by 7AM in sub-zero Minnesota weather brought
> needed money, but taught me that I wasn't going to spend my life working
> primarily for financial remuneration. and I haven't.)
You and I have done business, carried on various email, telephone
and newsgroup conversations over the years. I always got the
impression that you're just a decent guy who likes to help. My
"instincts about people" are based on the presumption that most
people, if given the opportunity, are pretty nice.
> So Dave apparently judges the _content_ of my messages by first filtering them
> through a wildly mistaken notion what of he thought/thinks are my intentions
> (rather than focusing on the facts) and then further distorts the information
> he receives by filtering his newsfeed. No wonder he gets it wrong.
That may also explain his attacks on products he's admittedly
never seen, those who build them and those who sell them. :^)
> Way sad stuff.
Indeed.
E. Lee Dickinson
questions positively and helpfully.
I've never bothered to listen to the anti-Bass propoganda: I simply don't
care what his past ineractions or business practices may have been. Today
he's a helpful contributor. Sure, he shows some bias in product selection,
but freely admits to it. I can't believe that after putting up with years of
people trashing you, Robert, that you would get involved in this thread.
Marc, not long ago you were going on about trying to preserve the integrity
of this newsgroup. I'm embarking on a rather large (at least, to me) HA
project, and it would sure suck if this group fell apart when I need help
most!
Dave: You started this with "If you weren't technically incompetent and
illiterate." As someone mentioned, that's ad hominim at its best.
Plleeeeeeeeaaaaassseeee??
Robert L Bass
<l...@firstnamelastname.com> wrote:
> This all hurts my heart...
OK, point taken.
Tech-Home
> Dave: You started this with "If you weren't technically incompetent and
> illiterate." As someone mentioned, that's ad hominim at its best.
ROFL
Brian
http://tech-home.com
Dave Houston
>Dave: You started this with "If you weren't technically incompetent and
>illiterate." As someone mentioned, that's ad hominim at its best.
I'm sorry you feel that way so I'll try to persuade you to another view.
Over the past 15-20 years the latin term "ad hominem" has been used by a
certain segment of the population to attack those with whom they disagree
(as it has been used here).
Unfortunately, those who fling it at others have never looked up its
definition. Since your spelling of the term was incorrect, I'll provide a
URL to the definition at dictionary.com.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ad%20hominem
I always present a logical argument based on technical facts and data. In
this case, I made the point that the frequencies used for HomePlug are far
higher than those used by the various PLC methods so there is no reason to
expect interference with X-10, Insteon, UPB, etc.
Now, I buttressed my argument by also saying Brian is "technically
incompetent". Brian has been posting here for a few months and has
demonstrated time and again that he has zero technical knowledge of the
devices he's trying to sell. I provided a link to the HomePlug organization
with references to a whitepaper that gives details on the frequencies they
use for in house BPL. I could have also included a link to the FCC Part 15
documentation which also lists the frequencies they allow for BPL. If Brian
were to spend the several hours required to read through all of the HomePlug
docs and the several days needed to read and digest the Part 15 rules, I
suspect he would still not understand the issue because he has demonstrated
that he lacks the technical training to comprehend it.
I also used the term "illiterate". If you refer to its definition, you'll
find that two of the three meanings given support my usage.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=illiterate
Those who fling the term "ad hominem" without also providing a logical and
reasonable argument that address the issues are, in truth, guilty of ad
hominem attacks. I am not.
BTW, "ad hominem" is never "at its best".
wkearney99
Dave, you're off the deep end (again). Let it go.
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:431ab922...@nntp.fuse.net...
> I said nothing about the warranty but merely quoted another dealer. I even
> included a URL so you could verify that I quoted him accurately. You
really
> should take a reading comprehension course.
>
> You are the only one I've seen who disputes the need for 20-25' spacing. I
> recall you saying you got something like 100'. Others have agreed with me.
> The FCC limits the output power of all such devices and all of them are
> going to have about the same range. It's a matter of physics.
>
> I posted the details of their USB interface here several months ago and
did
> so based solely on my knowledge of such things without ever seeing the
> actual interface.
>
> You have repeatedly claimed special knowledge of soon to be announced
> magnificent products. So far, most of those who have licensed the
technology
> seem to be merely supplying the same basic devices that Zensys originally
> developed with the only major difference being the color. Dean Roddey has
> pointed out some limitations (most of which I pointed out months ago).
>
> I don't recall any "major university" in your area.
>
> I assume from the criminal justice thing that you plan to be a cop. If you
> really do plan to be a psychologist get good malpractice insurance. Online
> diagnoses of people you've never met are probably frowned on by real
> psychologists.
>
> I really have no use for any dishonest SOB who attacks me repeatedly on
> matters where he admits he has no qualifications and then whines when I
> respond in kind. I don't turn the other cheek!
>
> "Brian" <br...@tech-home.com> wrote:
>
> >Again you're completely wrong and talking about stuff you have no clue
about
> >or even care to review. Please here is a site that will explain my point.
> >
> >Warranty 6-years?
> >How many other switches do this?
> >
> >http://www.smarthome.com/1179.html
> >
> >"I've said that Z-Wave devices will need 20-25' spacing, that they use a
> >proprietary protocol and a non-standard frequency."
> >
> >Wrong again. Why because I have them installed and don't need this 20-25'
> >spacing.
> >But because I'm not a technical expert I can't tell you exactly why your
> >wrong but I have real world experience in debating this, it is simply not
> >true!
> >
> >I can also tell you what is wrong with the USB interface and what is
being
> >done about this. And I could tell you about other Zwave products that are
in
> >my hand but unfortunately I can't because of confidentiality.
> >
> >As to my experience in college I have a 3.5 at a major university not a
> >college. My degrees are in Criminal Justice / Psychology and soon MBA. I
> >see the Usenet forums as informal and I'm sorry that my grammar skills
are
> >not to your level. Most of my posts are made at my real job where I have
> >little time.
> >
> >You are helpful and knowledgeable about many subjects but when you attack
> >others personally that shows your desperation.
> >This I do know for certain as Psychology is my field of study.
Marc F Hult
<l...@firstnamelastname.com> wrote in message
<dfc9g6$on1$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>:
Dave has endearing characteristics other than his considerable technical
expertise and long-standing willingness to share it in this newsgroup.
Another, in my opinion, is his deep wit.
In this thread Dave wrote " Every 3-6 months Hult crawls out from under a
rock []" . I (Hult) am a geologist specializing in water who lives in a
region with some of the worlds largest and best known underground streams --
so this is literally true ;-)
Thanks Dave, for that chuckle.
We all need more good humour in this time of monumental tragedy in the
Mississippi Bay region. As a hydrologist, I am overwhelmed with anger and
renewed energy by our society's tragic failure to give sufficient priority
to well-known environmental threats. As a humanist, the callous disregard
for folks less fortunate then ourselves fills me with a profound sadness.
Thank you, Lee , for your "Plleeeeeeeeaaaaassseeee?? "
(which is both a wise request and as good a pun as I've heard this week --
even if the spelling _is_ atrocious ;-)
Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
Marc F Hult
in message <431ac7a4....@nntp.fuse.net>:
>"E. Lee Dickinson" <l...@firstnamelastname.com> wrote:
>
>>Dave: You started this with "If you weren't technically incompetent and
>>illiterate." As someone mentioned, that's ad hominim at its best.
>
>I'm sorry you feel that way so I'll try to persuade you to another view.
>
>Over the past 15-20 years the latin term "ad hominem" has been used by a
>certain segment of the population to attack those with whom they disagree
>(as it has been used here).
Seems to me that just as troglodytes have the advantage of a deeper
understanding of their environment than surficial folks, Polyglots have more
perspectives on language than monoglots.
Dave has posted in this newsgroup that he wears the cloak of a curmudgeon.
Message-ID: <3eeb0875...@nntp.fuse.net>
The only definition offered by the on-line American Heritage Dictionary of
the English Language is
"Noun: An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions. "
" Vestus wirum redit "
Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol
Frank Olson
"Robert L Bass" <sa...@bassburglaralarms.com> wrote in message
news:sgsdh1t8rp5hnp4n4...@4ax.com...
>> The Z-Wave questions I raised were not nitpicking but valid technical
>> questions. The answers probably helped at least a few people better
>> understand their approach. I don't use Z-Wave. I can't afford to buy each
>> new technology that comes along just to test it. However, while I've
>> never
>> had an apple fall on my head, I still understand the law of gravity.
>
> You may not need to have a Zwave switch fall on your head to
> understand it either. However, a cursory examination of the
> available information would show you've erred repeatedly while
> making strongly worded declarations as though you actually knew
> the products.
You mean like you "know" the Elk M1-Gold??
> I suspect you'd get smacked in the mouth a lot if you behaved in
> public the way you do here.
> Is your ego so weak that the only way you can inflate it is to
> insult anyone with the temerity to disagree with you?
Interesting statements (coming from you, I mean).
Tech-Home
I even included a URL so you could verify that I quoted him accurately.
You really should take a reading comprehension course. "
You stated the warranty is shorter then comparable switches. Stop
confusing Zwave with HomePro or Intermatic there not the same in this
regard.
Nevertheless, what is some college student know about this. Zwave does
not have a warranty but rather Home Pro/ACT products and Intermatic.
Your post also went unanswered as to, Why people are returning them? I
can tell you why
#1 the dimmers shorted when the bulb blew. Fixed in later versions.
#2 they simply do not understand how to program the modules.
#3 software issues. Zwave push was to be standalone without computer
control. Several vendors mainly Homeseer pushed for a Computer
Interface.
#4 to trade for the new version, several returned old version remote
for the newer one. The old version worked but I sent them the new
version regardless.
" I posted the details of their USB interface here several months ago
and did so based solely on my knowledge of such things without ever
seeing the actual interface."
I will post in a few weeks many details about the remote and dimmers
along with the Zwave protocol. Hopefully this will allow others to
flash upgrade their old version remotes.
"You have repeatedly claimed special knowledge of soon to be
announced magnificent products. So far, most of those who have licensed
the technology seem to be merely supplying the same basic devices that
Zensys originally developed with the only major difference being the
color. Dean Roddey has pointed out some limitations (most of which I
pointed out months ago). "
I said there are things in the works. I am playing with a wonderful
software solution designed for Zwave products. This is not merely a
claim and when the official announcement comes out, I can inform you of
it then. It is a very small program that greatly enhances Zwave and
corrects the flaws.
"I don't recall any "major university" in your area."
So that means your not coming for a visit? If you would do a quick
search it would be easy to figure this out.
"I assume from the criminal justice thing that youplan to be a cop.
If you really do plan to be a psychologist get good malpractice
insurance. Online diagnoses of people you've never met are probably
frowned on by real psychologists. "
Nope guess you did not see the MBA. Cops, actually police officers
receive very little compensation for putting the life on the line to
save other ungrateful citizens. I have not diagnosed you with anything
but if you would like try, paranoid schizophrenic.
I really have no use for any dishonest SOB who attacks
me repeatedly on matters where he admits he has no qualifications and
then whines when I respond in kind. I don't turn the other cheek!
If you are calling me a dishonest SOB. I have never resorted to
name-calling for one. I guess I grew up a bit different where we were
taught it is not nice. In my neck of the woods most would make sure
your cheek turned with those words. Lets talk about Home automation not
insulting others with name calling as this shows ignorance.
"Now, I buttressed my argument by also saying Brian is "technically
incompetent". Brian has been posting here for a few months and has
demonstrated time and again that he has zero technical knowledge of the
devices he's trying to sell. I provided a link to the HomePlug
organization
with references to a whitepaper that gives details on the frequencies
they
use for in house BPL. I could have also included a link to the FCC Part
15
documentation which also lists the frequencies they allow for BPL. If
Brian
were to spend the several hours required to read through all of the
HomePlug
docs and the several days needed to read and digest the Part 15 rules,
I
suspect he would still not understand the issue because he has
demonstrated
that he lacks the technical training to comprehend it."
Very amusing statements. Again you're completely WRONG about
"posting here for a few month"! Refer to my earlier diagnoses. A
quick search showed a post by me on Jul 15 2004. According to my
non-technical calculations, this is just shy of 14 months. My statement
was "What happens when BroadBand transmitts over the powerline as it
really is happening and most likely only going to expand." I did not
say there would be issues But I would not count on BPL not creating any
issues weather it be with X10, UPB, or Ham Radio. I have read your
links but I can refer you to links saying the earth is flat. It's
exciting and I'm glad BPL is finally coming as it's often difficult
to get high speed internet in rural areas, as in where I used to live.
But to say there will be no issues is a very strong statement. Did
everyone think there new plasma would cause issues with X10?
Brian
http://tech-home.com
Frank Olson
<MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
news:mo8hh1tgk6qih6ku2...@4ax.com...
>>To quote the Princess Bride's Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I
>>do not think it means what you think it means."
>>
>>Websters:
>>
>>Main Entry: scha·den·freu·de
>>Pronunciation: 'shä-d&n-"froi-d&
>>Function: noun
>>Usage: often capitalized
>>Etymology: German, from Schaden damage + Freude joy
>>: enjoyment obtained from the troubles of others
>
> LOL .. ;-) Thanks. There's another memorable line in that flick. "My name
> is ...)
This is the best line in the film (IMO): "And you!! Friendless, brainless,
helpless, hopeless! Do you want me to send you back to where you were??
Unemployed in Greenland?"
wkearney99
As opposed to sending messages without valid e-mail addresses? From work no
less?
Marc F Hult
message <431ac7a4....@nntp.fuse.net>:
>"E. Lee Dickinson" <l...@firstnamelastname.com> wrote:
>
>>Dave: You started this with "If you weren't technically incompetent and
>>illiterate." As someone mentioned, that's ad hominim at its best.
>
>I'm sorry you feel that way so I'll try to persuade you to another view.
>
>Over the past 15-20 years the latin term "ad hominem" has been used by a
>certain segment of the population to attack those with whom they disagree
>(as it has been used here).
>
>Unfortunately, those who fling it at others have never looked up its
>definition. Since your spelling of the term was incorrect, I'll provide a
>URL to the definition at dictionary.com.
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ad%20hominem
<snip discussion of "illiterate" etc>
>Those who fling the term "ad hominem" without also providing a logical and
>reasonable argument that address the issues are, in truth, guilty of ad
>hominem attacks. I am not.
>
>BTW, "ad hominem" is never "at its best".
BTW, seems to me Dave that expounds about what he has Googled up (yet again).
_Ad_hominem_ is a Latin phrase that means "to the man" and by usage of the
times, "the person".
It has long been used as shorthand for _argumentum_ad_hominem" (an
argument/point directed to/at a/the person).
Dave can't be writing about me because I don't "fling it at others" and I
indeed "looked up its definition' both in English and Latin long before the
"past 15-20 years" Dave refers to.
( With only one year of Latin in college, I've had fewer years of education
in Latin than either of my parents, either of my children and my only sibling,
but I do know what the phrase means. My father taught Latin while I was
growing up and Latin phrases continue to be common parlance in our family.
This is/used to be relatively common in contexts in which several European
languages are/were spoken because using Latin can help to clarify false
cognates and false friends. -- e.g., Spanish "embarazada", "constipado",
"contestar", "desgracia", and so on.
This is not snobbism or an effete affectation.. When one lives in an
environment in which more than one language is required to get along well in
daily life, knowing the _lingua_mater_ of those languages is an efficient way
to learn what you have to learn in order to get though the day.)
When Dave called me a SOB (abbreviation for "Son Of a Bitch") Dave was making
an _ad_hominem_ statement regardless of whatever arguments he *also* might
make based on:
- authority (_argumentum_ab_auctoritate_) or
- the matter at hand (_argumentum_ad_rem_) or
- an appeal to envy (_argumentum_ad_invidiam_)
and so on. His long-time use of the latter is revealing in my opinion.
Some folks would also say that he is making an "ad feminam" comment (in a
contemporary sense) about my mother which may be acceptable in his culture but
is not in mine.
So I dunno why Dave writes ' BTW "ad hominem" is never "at its best" '
When the problem is the person -- as Dave amply demonstrates *he* IS with his
continued antisocial behavior that chases good folks from this newsgroup --
_ad_hominem_ discussion is relavent. (preceding word misspelled so Dave has
something factual to cavil about).
HTH ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org