Oilpainting
Roger Johansson
like trying to paint, it looks like a lot of fun.
I don't have real oilpaint or real brushes, so I have been watching
those lessons and been trying to find out how to do the same things
with a paint-program like paintshop pro. (I use Psp version 7)
I have used Psp earlier for simple tasks like making pictures lighter,
fixing the color balance and some retouching using the smudge tool.
For a week now I have been trying to use Psp as a painting program,
and I get a little frustrated. I cannot find out simple things like
how to mix a few colors on a palett, and use a big brush to stipple on
that mixture of marmored colors.
Or if I want to use masking tape to cover part of the canvas and work
on the uncovered part, like if I want to cover the part under a
horizon line and work only with the sky, and then remove the masking
tape and attach it to the sky instead, so I can work with the sea
under the sky.
When I have created a brush with a shape and colors I like, how can I
save it, set it aside, so to speak, and use it later with the same
settings?
The main problem is that there are lots of tutorials which tell me how
to use different things in Psp, like picture tubes, brushes, etc..
But I have found no tutorials that start from what I need, only from
what is available in the program.
Is there any tutorial, web site, which starts from the real world
technique of painting and shows how to do the same, or similar, things
in Psp?
There are thousands of links for Psp, tutorials, etc.. and I have no
chance of checking them all out until I find some which use the
approach I am looking for, going from real oilpainting to using Psp
for the same operations. Does anybody know where to look?
Or do you have some tips how to do the operations I talked about
above?
--
Roger J.
diana
> Is there any tutorial, web site, which starts from the real world
> technique of painting and shows how to do the same, or similar, things
> in Psp?
Have a look at http://digitoils.com/howdo.html You will have to do some
translating of settings from the older versions of PSP to work his tutorial,
things have changed quite a bit since then, but you'll see the steps
involved and techniques used to do digital oil painting.
Diana
--
diana AT freetubes DOT com
JP Kabala
learned to paint in digital media.
Painting is fun, no matter what media you choose. Of all
the digital painting programs out there, the one that most closely
mimics natural media is Corel Painter, and even it has
limitations. PSP8 has a better brush engine than PSP7,
( the new one allows you more control over materials,)
and a different, more "paint-like" feel than Photoshop's
but there is no way on earth to make pixels behave like
paint. With the right training you can make them
LOOK similar, but you don't use the same technique.
Diana provided a link to digitoils-- and you'll see what
I mean there. It isn't the same process at all. She makes
extensive use of the push brush, which is rather different from
smudge, or a regular paint brush or air brush.
Some of the techniques carry over fairly
closely, most others will not. You cannot duplicate
the effect of oil 1 to 1 in pixels by exactly the
same means., any more than the exact same techniques
and the same tools used for oil painting can be
applied to watercolor. You don't mention whether
or not you've ever painted with real brushes and
pigments or, if you have, what kind. Pixels behave
more like watercolor than oil color, because you
are dealing with semitransparent colors that have
no measurable volume. The thickness or density
of oil paint is part of the creative process. And using the
speed at which it dries (even compared to watercolor
and acrylic) is part of any real paint technique
That doesn't mean that you can't produce beautiful things
digitally, only that you can't simply take lessons designed
for canvas and oil and plop them into software and expect
identical results.
Buy yourself a Wacom tablet and a few books on Digital
Painting Technique (Amazon lists several) Authors to
look for include Monroy, Demers, Crumpler, Kost, Haynes,
and Pendarven. Many of these books are not specialized
to a single program, others are. There is no one single
book that teaches ONLY painting techniques in PSP
(and only a few for any program.)
If you're in or near California, I'd recommend getting in touch
with San Francisco State University school of Multimedia--
they not only have the amazing Bert Monroy on the faculty, but
a number of other very bright people who may be able to
make more recommendations as well, If your local bookstore
can get it for you, you might also take a look at Computer
Arts and Computer Arts Projects magazines.
HOWEVER, having said all that see below to see answers to
some of your other questions
> For a week now I have been trying to use Psp as a painting program,
> and I get a little frustrated. I cannot find out simple things like
> how to mix a few colors on a palett, and use a big brush to stipple on
> that mixture of marmored colors.
This is one of those thing that can't be done in PSP7. PSP 8 comes closer
with the ability to paint with textured and variegated samples, but there
are
completely different tecniques for applying color via computer.
Painter tries to mimic this behavior but even it doesn't really do it very
well.
Try Crumpler or Pendarven for good discussions of this
>
> Or if I want to use masking tape to cover part of the canvas and work
> on the uncovered part, like if I want to cover the part under a
> horizon line and work only with the sky, and then remove the masking
> tape and attach it to the sky instead, so I can work with the sea
> under the sky.
This one is easy. Look at Selections and Masks. Also, learn as much as you
can about working with layers. For all the limitations of digital media
layers, layer blends, masks and selections are part of the power you can't
precisely capture with a brush. Gaussian blur and average blur will
create in seconds smooth transitions you would spend HOURS on with
a brush, Layer blends aas a creative tool .....
> When I have created a brush with a shape and colors I like, how can I
> save it, set it aside, so to speak, and use it later with the same
> settings?
You can save the brush as a preset and the colors as swatches. In version 8,
you can link them to each other via scripts, but that isn't possible in 7 or
AFAIK, in any version of Photoshop-- though maybe someone has written
an obscure action someplace that does this.
> The main problem is that there are lots of tutorials which tell me how
> to use different things in Psp, like picture tubes, brushes, etc..
> But I have found no tutorials that start from what I need, only from
> what is available in the program.
I don't understand this comment. Are you saying that there are no
tutorials about how to take oil paint lessons and use them on a
computer? There's a reason for that. You can't just apply one media to
the other. You need to learn how to learn to use this media. It is
essentially different. Trying to paint digitally using oil techniques
is like trying to swim on land. You may eventually make a little
progress, but it will be very slow, clumsy and painful.
> Is there any tutorial, web site, which starts from the real world
> technique of painting and shows how to do the same, or similar, things
> in Psp?
Not really. I have a couple of quick painting tutorials, but they
assume that you are using version 8, and they are designed to
produce watercolor-like results, not oil.
www.jpkabala.com
fugitive
Roger Johansson wrote:
>
> I have seen lessons in oilpainting on satellite television and felt
> like trying to paint, it looks like a lot of fun.
>
> I don't have real oilpaint or real brushes, so I have been watching
> those lessons and been trying to find out how to do the same things
> with a paint-program like paintshop pro. (I use Psp version 7)
>
> I have used Psp earlier for simple tasks like making pictures lighter,
> fixing the color balance and some retouching using the smudge tool.
>
> For a week now I have been trying to use Psp as a painting program,
> and I get a little frustrated. I cannot find out simple things like
> how to mix a few colors on a palett, and use a big brush to stipple on
> that mixture of marmored colors.
> You might be able to mix some with the push tool, but multicolors, for get it.
This can all be done with Corel Painter, 6,7, or 8, eight being more
forgiving, and
less of a general mess. It's expensive, but has specific oil painting
brushes, an impasto
that really works, and 8 has a place to mix paint. I don't want to
talk about masking.
> Or if I want to use masking tape to cover part of the canvas and work
> on the uncovered part, like if I want to cover the part under a
> horizon line and work only with the sky, and then remove the masking
> tape and attach it to the sky instead, so I can work with the sea
> under the sky.
>
> When I have created a brush with a shape and colors I like, how can I
> save it, set it aside, so to speak, and use it later with the same
> settings?
> There is a create brush mode on the brush menu, in 7, but vs. 8 is much better,
and if you like psp 7, you may love 8. The digitoils tut is 6 years
out of date.
Not the definitive word anyway. I may be able to help you if you write
me, with,
specific things, you'd like to do.
Greg.
Roger Johansson
>Diana provided a link to digitoils-- and you'll see what
Thanks to everybody who replied, I will use your links and advice as
good as I can.
>Some of the techniques carry over fairly
>closely, most others will not.
Yes, I understand that, of course.
I have learned more about features in Psp in the last week than I ever
did before, even if I still have big problems finding the tools I
need.
I have started developing some tricks on my own, like using a second
painting as a palette for the one I am really trying to paint.
I can mix colors on the palette painting and use clone brush to carry
over colors and patterns, etc..
I have started creating my own brushes with leaf-like structures to
make it easier to paint trees, and grass-like structures for painting
grass.
I just thought maybe others have been developing similar tricks and
that maybe I could find such tutorials or web sites to learn more.
--
Roger J.
Uni
Not here, just a bunch of amateurs that pat each other's back.
:-)
Uni
>
>
JP Kabala
no matter which application you use, You can probably
find them used on Amazon, as none of them are inexpensive.
They're in the $40-50 range new, and unless you live near
and have access to a University, the likelihood of finding them
in a library is pretty slim. I think they are both from NewRiders
press. (I know the Monroy books are-- I lent my Crumpler
to a friend and I can't check right now.)
> Roger J.
Roger Johansson
>The Crumpler and Monroy books have a lot to teach,
>no matter which application you use, You can probably
>find them used on Amazon, as none of them are inexpensive.
>
>They're in the $40-50 range new, and unless you live near
>and have access to a University, the likelihood of finding them
Thanks for the tip, but I live in Europe so the cost with all extra
expenses added for one or both of these books would be rather high.
If I had that money would rather be tempted to buy real oil colors,
brushes and canvases, and try painting in reality.
I have thought many times when wrestling with paint programs during
the last weeks how easy everything would be if I had real things to
work with.
Such an operation as mixing a few colors just a little, and take a
little of the marmored mixture on a palette knife and pull it with
very easy pressure against the canvas, leaving gaps in the applied
color and giving different spots of color on the canvas would be so
easy. That still seems very hard to do with a paint program in the
computer.
One tip I have to everybody is to use a rather big canvas, in pixels,
maybe double the screen size. That makes the result look real, with
photographic picture quality, instead of what happens when we use too
small sizes, like 500*400pixels, then we can always see that it has a
limited resolution.
When we work with it we can zoom in and see the individual pixels if
needed, but when we see the whole picture it looks real.
I looked at the tutorial suggested to me, which used early versions of
Psp. It was very close to what I am looking for. Thanks.
It would be useful if more people shared their tricks, especially how
to do things in the paint program which are standard operations in
real life painting. Such as the palette knife technique I talked
about.
I am still wrestling with that. Maybe If I create brushes with
patterns which have holes in them, and color them with marmored
colors, if that is possible.. Or use clone brush on such patterns..
Well, I'll keep on trying.
(I am not sure, by the way, that "palette knife" is the proper english
term for that tool, but I hope you understand what I mean)
--
Roger J.
fugitive
like you need Painter, watch ebay, for software, you may be able to get
a used one cheap. Palette Knife is correct, and some on this
url/site/group, may be able to
advisehttp://www.critical-depth.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=7&sid=931a714347679eee552c843d719127ae.
Sceadu
news:o540kvgmsal8v0gvj...@4ax.com...
I know Fugitive already mentioned this, but if you want to do realistic painting on your
PC the best software to use is Painter, which is specifically designed for that task. PSP
is very good for general image editing and getting smooth "CG" paint effects, but if you
want to simulate natural media brushes Painter is the thing to use. I use Painter 6, but
Painter 8 is out and has many more features.
And before Uni sinks his teeth into this post, I'm not saying you need Painter to replace
PSP. Painter is a good _supplement_ to any standard image editing application. Even
people who have Photoshop still need Painter or Deep Paint if they want realistic paint
effects.
Sceadu
Roger Johansson
>I know Fugitive already mentioned this, but if you want to do realistic painting on your
>PC the best software to use is Painter, which is specifically designed for that task. PSP
>is very good for general image editing and getting smooth "CG" paint effects, but if you
>want to simulate natural media brushes Painter is the thing to use. I use Painter 6, but
>Painter 8 is out and has many more features.
I have looked it up on the web now, and Corel Painter looks like it
would be useful. But I cannot afford it now, and it is only available
for win2k and xp, and I use win98, so it has to wait for some time in
the future.
I'll have to learn to use Psp as well as possible until then.
And who knows, maybe Jasc decide to include some more dedicated
painters tools in their future releases.
And macros, user created toolbars, etc..
--
Roger J.
JP Kabala
> "Sceadu" <aeona...@NOhotmailSPAM.com> wrote:
> And who knows, maybe Jasc decide to include some more dedicated
> painters tools in their future releases.
> And macros, user created toolbars, etc..
> YOu can stomize toolbars in version 7 but that's why I suggested version
8 macros-- (scripts) and lots of other user customization features are
already i
n PSP version 8,and the paint engine in 8 and brush variances in
8 are far more painter friendly. And you would LOVE the warp brushes.
BTW, digital painting really isn't much less expensive to do than
traditional
oil and canvas painiting-- cleaner, less smelly, less likely to take over
your house with drying canvases or ruin your favorite favorite jeans
when you smear Prussian Blue on them, less likely to cause a
vet bill when you're concentrating and your dog gets into a jar of brush
cleaner--- all of those things, yes, but cheaper? Ummmm, don't really think
so.
When you factor in the computer, software, supplies, Wacom, quality printing
or a quality printer, a good scanner, books, classes, printer supplies,
maybe a
digital camera for models, etc......having done both, costs are probably
about
equal in the long run. About the only place you really save money is
storage and spoilage. You can burn an awful lot of work to CD or
DVD and store it on the bookshelf rather than having to worry about climate-
controlled storage for canvasses, (and only print on demand) and the nice
thing about pixels is that if you decide you realy hate something you've
done,
and it's beyond redemption you can hit the delete key and you
instantly have new pixels to play with.
Incidentally, the Computer Arts magazines that I mentioned in the first
reply come
from the UK, so they may be a lot less expensive for you than for me, They
frequently
come with CD's full of demos and add ons to try, and almost always have good
tutorials.
Uni
Maybe someday...
Uni
>
>
fugitive
Roger Johansson wrote:
>
> "Sceadu" <aeona...@NOhotmailSPAM.com> wrote:
>
> >I know Fugitive already mentioned this, but if you want to do realistic painting on your
> >PC the best software to use is Painter, which is specifically designed for that task. PSP
> >is very good for general image editing and getting smooth "CG" paint effects, but if you
> >want to simulate natural media brushes Painter is the thing to use. I use Painter 6, but
> >Painter 8 is out and has many more features.
>
> I have looked it up on the web now, and Corel Painter looks like it
> would be useful. But I cannot afford it now, and it is only available
> for win2k and xp, and I use win98, so it has to wait for some time in
> the future.
> That's just because 98 is getting old and MS doesn't support it like they did. Painter
will run fine on 98, go ck out ebay.
greg
mike
no-e...@home.se wrote on 8/18/03 4:23 PM:
> And who knows, maybe Jasc decide to include some more dedicated
> painters tools in their future releases.
Are you going to hold your breath until that happens?
I think you will die.
":^) ®
--
Mike
* Logo Design *
Put some fun in your next logo!
Site at: http://www.artistmike.com
Angela M. Cable
> I have looked it up on the web now, and Corel Painter looks like it
> would be useful. But I cannot afford it now, and it is only available
> for win2k and xp, and I use win98, so it has to wait for some time in
> the future.
Painter Classic, a scaled down version of Painter, comes free with some
hardware. I think my copy came with a flatbed scanner. I believe Wacom
also distributes it with one of their tablets.
>
> I'll have to learn to use Psp as well as possible until then.
>
> And who knows, maybe Jasc decide to include some more dedicated
> painters tools in their future releases.
> And macros, user created toolbars, etc..
All of this is available in PSP8.
--
Angela M. Cable
PSP8 Private Beta Tester
PSP Tutorial Links:
http://www.psplinks.com
5th Street Studio, free graphics, websets and more:
http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/alaia/354/
two cents
>
>Painter Classic, a scaled down version of Painter, comes free with some
>hardware. I think my copy came with a flatbed scanner. I believe Wacom
>also distributes it with one of their tablets.
That's right. Wacom and Corel even have (if you own Classic, which
goes free with the tablet you bought) a special offer that entitles
you for a Corel Painter 8 upgrade at a reduced price comparable to
owning earlier versions of Painter, which is a very good deal,
actually. A good tablet is very, very essential to be able to paint
comfortably, fyi. I, myself, bought a Wacom tablet and I still have
that entitlement in mind if I really wanted to go for it. I didn't
take it, for now at least, because Painter 8 (trial version) lacked
stability and kept crashing on my current PC system. Also, although,
Painter 8's interface has been significantly "cleaned up," it's still
not to my liking: toolboars and palettes are undockable, lack
customization capability such as being able to isolate tools you use
regularly from their original toolbars, etc. Even if I did take
Painter 8 instead of PSP8, most likely I wouldn't be using all those
numerous brushes and fantastic painting effects Painter 8 had and I
would only be using the smudge tool, burn and lighten tools, and basic
paint essentials, which most photo editing software have. So my
decision was based on stability (on my current system), price,
over-all features (image editing plus painting, which includes preset
brushes which you can't find in Photoshop, brush variance which works
well with the tablet), and most importantly, interface. In PSP8, I'm
able to achieve a neat workspace without having to move around crappy,
undockable, uncustomizable toolbars, which other paint programs are
afflicted with (which include Painter 8.) I guess they expect everyone
to use short-cut keys. Well, I use short cut keys very seldom because
I want my left hand free most of the time to be able to sip coffee or
munch my fries and big mac at the same time ;-) ... As they always
say, " less is more", so why be in a frantic rush to finish it when a
little stroke here and there is sufficient? :o) ...Hope that helps.
Brett
Roger Johansson
>> And who knows, maybe Jasc decide to include some more dedicated
>> painters tools in their future releases.
>> And macros, user created toolbars, etc..
>
>All of this is available in PSP8.
Great, I can't wait to get it. But I am on a slow modem right now so
it will be some day in the future.
--
Roger J.