The one word that no graphics guru wants to hear... "pro-bono".
Stephen Edwards
*sigh*
I got a phonecall from an individual who is working on a project that
is not unlike the old "Hands Across America" sandal-wearing
tree-hugging lovey-dovey hippie event that took place several years
back. It's supposed to be a one-year commemoration for 9/11.
They spent about two hours going into detail about how they have set
up a non-profit organization to host the event, and how "organized" it
is, what with all of the "executives", "accountants", and "lawyers"
donating their free time to this ridiculous shenanigan, etc.
Anyway, after listening to their story, the matter of a logo design
comes up, to which I have no aversion. During the conversation, I
unwittingly give out all kinds of good ideas, thinking that I might be
able to lasso these people as potential clients. Unfortunately,
however, the one little minor detail that was left out until the end
was the fact that the people whom I would be dealing with (most of
whom easily make $700,000 a year after taxes) are expecting me to do
the logo design work "pro-bono" in the spirit of "giving".
Of course, I had the standard response:
"Uh... I see."
This is graphics guru talk for:
"Uh, yeah, that will happen, as soon as the Amiga returns, a Star Wars
fanatic gets a job, and Angelina Jolie actually decides to go celebate
and take a shower. Are you smoking crack?!"
I must ask, why is it that suit-wearing monkeys who have absolutely no
clue about what people such as ourselves do just assume that our time
is completely worthless? Are they really that stupid, or do they just
think that people like us are that stupid? It's almost like some kind
of strange natural phenomena that permeates the entire graphics
market. It's not even like they wanted me to work for peanuts. They
wanted me to work for an empty bag. Some people are just incredible.
Needless to say, in the future, I'll be sure state my fees up front,
so I won't waste valuable time listening to a group of fucking elitist
liberal Democrat hippie nimrods asking for handouts.
Sorry. Just needed to rant.
--
Stephen Edwards - BSD/SGI/NT/3D/C/C++
http://www.extremezone.com/~anamorph/
*CLICK!* "Uh, we need that to live."
js33
Yeah but it's for a good cause
is the standard reply when you
tell them you can't work for free.
We actually did several pro-bono
projects at a video company I used
to work for with the thought that it
might lead to real paying work which
of course it never did.
Cheers,
JS
Lee Gabel
>
> You go boy. Hehehe
> Yeah but it's for a good cause
> is the standard reply when you
> tell them you can't work for free.
>
> We actually did several pro-bono
> projects at a video company I used
> to work for with the thought that it
> might lead to real paying work which
> of course it never did.
Work done for free *never* leads to paying work, because the once there's a
cost involved, they will go somewhere else to try and get it for free.
If they're asking for free work, you already know how much they value your
skills and time. Zero.
--
Cheers, Lee F. Gabel, Luna Seven Imagery, 250.472.8516 | "Don't wish
3D Modeling, Animation & Design * www.lunaseven.com | for it.
BC Bed & Breakfasts Only! * www.pixsell.bc.ca/bb | Work for it."
Stephen Edwards
> js33 wrote:
>>
>> You go boy. Hehehe
>> Yeah but it's for a good cause
>> is the standard reply when you
>> tell them you can't work for free.
>>
>> We actually did several pro-bono
>> projects at a video company I used
>> to work for with the thought that it
>> might lead to real paying work which
>> of course it never did.
It's much like GNU software. Many programmers spend several years
developing software, and then release it under the GPL thinking
that it will lead to great employment opportunities, or even
business opportunities. What happens is that every freeloader on
the planet gets ahold of their code, figures out a way to get
around the GPL, and uses the code in their own work in order to
gain large profits for their budding software companies.
To embrace the GPL is to clasp the serpent to one's breast.
It's suicide. The same goes for gratis work.
>Work done for free *never* leads to paying work, because the once there's a
>cost involved, they will go somewhere else to try and get it for free.
I have a good friend who did all kinds of "pro-bono" work for Arizona
State University. One project involved designing a kind of mobile
hospital, similar to a MASH unit, for civilians in times of disaster.
Another project I can recall was an actual course in the College of
Education that was going to be offered on CD-ROM. My friend did
about half of the work on it, and he worked his ass off. In all, he
did about ten or eleven large-scale projects "gratis", thinking that
he would get "recognition" and "praise", and "eager employers knocking
on his door with large paychecks in their hands".
What it got him was the chance to watch a bunch of other people who did
virtually nothing take all of the credit. Today he's working in
tech-support for a scheduling software company. Doing work for free got
him all of two things: Jack and shit.
>If they're asking for free work, you already know how much they value your
>skills and time. Zero.
And that's the part of it that just fscking annoys the shit
out of me (pardon my French). This isn't the first time in
this year... hell, this month, that I've had this kind of
request placed upon me. It's just incredible.
Fellow Wavers... NEVER do ANYTHING for free! Ever!
Tesselator
> > js33 wrote:
> >>
> >> You go boy. Hehehe
> >> Yeah but it's for a good cause
> >> is the standard reply when you
> >> tell them you can't work for free.
> >>
> >> We actually did several pro-bono
> >> projects at a video company I used
> >> to work for with the thought that it
> >> might lead to real paying work which
> >> of course it never did.
>
> It's much like GNU software. Many programmers spend several years
> developing software, and then release it under the GPL thinking
> that it will lead to great employment opportunities, or even
> business opportunities. What happens is that every freeloader on
> the planet gets ahold of their code, figures out a way to get
> around the GPL, and uses the code in their own work in order to
> gain large profits for their budding software companies.
>
> To embrace the GPL is to clasp the serpent to one's breast.
> It's suicide. The same goes for gratis work.
I realize you're on a roll with this. I might do the same.
If that happened to me I'd feel violated and offended. But
reguarding the GNU/GPL issue I couldn't disagree more. I'm
sure what you discribe has happened in the past but it's the
exception and not the rule. The bulk of the GNU force doesn't
really fit here.
But the rest of this is a really nice rant! :)
I'm diggen it!
Glenn Pechacek
:)
Glenn
"Stephen Edwards" <anam...@cyclic.aux.net> wrote in message
news:3cbe5ddb...@news.extremezone.com...
Benjamin Smith
a
> cost involved, they will go somewhere else to try and get it for free.
I can categorically say this is untrue. In the past I've had people do work
for me for free and when my next project came around I paid them to do the
same job again because it was so fantastic the first time.
But then I'm just super nice.
Benjamin Smith | Stormfront Digital Pictures | www.sfdp.co.uk
Nick Hatzichristos
"Benjamin Smith" <benjami...@sfdp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tIyv8.2$hg2...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> > Work done for free *never* leads to paying work, because the once
there's
> a
> > cost involved, they will go somewhere else to try and get it for free.
>
> I can categorically say this is untrue. In the past I've had people do
work
> for me for free and when my next project came around I paid them to do the
> same job again because it was so fantastic the first time.
Yeah, but you 're able to picture yourself in their shoes. You 're an artist
yourself, not some big-firm suit.
> But then I'm just super nice.
Oh, yeah. That too...
: P
nick
--
Nick Hatzichristos
VFX Animator
e-mail : nixx (at) otenet (dot) gr
ICQ# : 48636115
Steve
>....are expecting me to do
> the logo design work "pro-bono" in the spirit of "giving".
>
> clue about what people such as ourselves do just assume that our time
> is completely worthless? Are they really that stupid, or do they just
> think that people like us are that stupid?
Yes, Yes and Yes :) My 'day job' is building production machinery and
robotic stuff. We have people walk in off the street all the time asking us
to build them something they could buy in the hardware store for $20 and
they are shocked that we want to charge more then $20 for a job that
shouldn't take more then 5 or 6 hours! The suit-wearing monkeys who come in
asking for a pro-bono job with a hint of more work some where down the line
or just expecting us to work for $0.50 an hour are the worst though.
With Animation/Graphics being a part time job/hobby, it seems like the
offers I get to work for free are nearly endless :) They almost all say,
with a straight face, that they are giving me a chance to get my work out in
the public eye and seen. I think it's the same in every field, every one
wants something for nothing (or at least a lot of people do)
Stephen Edwards
Don't get me wrong, Tess. I'm not trying to beat up on the GPL. In
fact, I think the GPL is a great way for researchers to share code and
to help educate potential software designers on how to write
applications, operating systems, or whatever. I'm all for it,
especially if someone wants to keep their code completely out of the
commercial circle.
I'm just saying that I think that anyone who lets their professional
status or business ride on it entirely is very likely making a huge
mistake. In such a situation, I personally would prefer the Berkeley
license, but that is just my personal preference.
>But the rest of this is a really nice rant! :)
Gee, thanks. I whined it myself. :-)
Stephen Edwards
>> Work done for free *never* leads to paying work, because the once there's
>a
>> cost involved, they will go somewhere else to try and get it for free.
>
>I can categorically say this is untrue. In the past I've had people do work
>for me for free and when my next project came around I paid them to do the
>same job again because it was so fantastic the first time.
And by virtue of what you've just said, it's apparent that you are not a
suit-wearing monkey, but, at the very least, a person who can see things
from the artist's perspective. Sadly, you are in a tiny minority as far
as clients go.
Stephen Edwards
>You don't care about clean water and babies ?
Care? Why should I care about anything? Hell, I sniff melting
styrofoam for breakfast and eat discarded plutonium rods for lunch. But
I do always eat a sensible dinner. It's based on the Slim Fast plan.
:-)
Stephen Edwards
>"Stephen Edwards" <anam...@cyclic.aux.net> wrote
8<SNIP>8
>offers I get to work for free are nearly endless :) They almost all say,
>with a straight face, that they are giving me a chance to get my work out in
>the public eye and seen. I think it's the same in every field, every one
What's worse is, in most of those cases, some other wanker who does
virtually none of the work on the project would get all of the credit.
Hell, we could get our name out there just by taking a can of spray
paint and going to work on a boxcar, or a wall somewhere if that really
is all we were interested in. The fact of the matter is, when it comes
to doing work for the sole purpose of "getting our name out", we can do
that on our own.
Perhaps I should print up T-shirts for professional graphics gurus:
1.) I absolutely do not work for "free", "gratis", or "pro-bono".
2.) If you are financially unwilling, or strained, see 1.).
3.) If my policy annoys you, see 1.).
4.) If you think you might have "another angle", see 1.).
Tesselator
> I'm just saying that I think that anyone who lets their professional
> status or business ride on it entirely is very likely making a huge
> mistake.
No Doubt!
> In such a situation, I personally would prefer the Berkeley
> license, but that is just my personal preference.
> >But the rest of this is a really nice rant! :)
>
> Gee, thanks. I whined it myself. :-)
>
I'll pass you the cheese to go with that whine soon as I'm done. :)
Seattle Eric
> *sigh*
> <snip>
> Needless to say, in the future, I'll be sure state my fees up front,
> so I won't waste valuable time listening to a group of fucking elitist
> liberal Democrat hippie nimrods asking for handouts.
>
> Sorry. Just needed to rant.
>
> --
> Stephen Edwards - BSD/SGI/NT/3D/C/C++
Dude, excellent rant. You left out "NPR-evangelistas".
--
***************************************************
** Look! There's ARAT in the middle of "separate"!
****************************************************
Seattle Eric
> We actually did several pro-bono
> projects at a video company I used
> to work for with the thought that it
> might lead to real paying work which
> of course it never did.
Of course indeed. I'd be glad to hear of any such work that EVER lead
to a paying gig.
(It would give me hope that maybe some day MY follies would pay
off...........)
Seattle Eric
>
> >But the rest of this is a really nice rant! :)
>
> Gee, thanks. I whined it myself. :-)
ROTFL!
Seattle Eric
> But then I'm just super nice.
>
> Benjamin Smith | Stormfront Digital Pictures | www.sfdp.co.uk
Besides, you're (probably) British (based on your domain). And they're
ever so polite.
Actually, it's probably more as somebody wrote: you can "identify". Just
like ex-waiters/waitresses tip better than weasal rich-ass lawyers, 'cuz they
know what it's like.
Fuzer
This is the first rant post I have actually saved.
....priceless!
:::chris
"Stephen Edwards" <anam...@cyclic.aux.net> wrote in message
news:3cbe5ddb...@news.extremezone.com...
>
Simon Foster
news:a9n8vf$2p1$1...@216.39.135.10...
<snip> Besides, you're (probably) British (based on your domain). And
they're
> ever so polite.
Ackshully Eric we're the rudest nation on earth. We just hide it behind a
barrage of manners. But this thread is distressing me. A few months back
there was someone here saying how good it was to work for free. I made some
tart remarks to disagree & then s/he went on to tell me that I didn't know
what I was talking about & I clearly wouldn't get very far (I guess I
imagined the last 15 years.) Now everyone is saying the same thing & no one
so far is being pompous and patronising at them. SO... none of you know what
you're talking about and you clearly won't get very far.
Oh God. I think I have sympathetic PMT. I'm ranting for no good reason. This
is not good. I love you all and here's a cyber group hug for you.
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
Simon Foster
Slartibartfast
anam...@cyclic.aux.net says...
>
> I must ask, why is it that suit-wearing monkeys who have absolutely no
> clue about what people such as ourselves do just assume that our time
> is completely worthless? Are they really that stupid, or do they just
> think that people like us are that stupid? It's almost like some kind
> of strange natural phenomena that permeates the entire graphics
> market. It's not even like they wanted me to work for peanuts. They
> wanted me to work for an empty bag. Some people are just incredible.
>
Here is where it might make sense. If you were not an experienced
graphics professional, but instead a "wannabee", I think it would be a
great opportunity to take on a free project. You get to build your
portfolio, and you get to see how real projects differ from book
exercises.
I work for a company that does web-based training, and we occasionally
have people asking us to let them do Flash projects for free, so they
can do just what I describe. We are always willing and assign them
something to do, but it almost never gets done. That's a great lesson
for them too -- they learn they don't want to be a professional after
all.
Stephen Edwards
Interesting points. However, I've found that whether or not one is a
true "professional" depends highly upon whether or not they actually
have some kind of talent, as opposed to having lots of practice with
particular pieces of software.
For example, whenever I hear of an employer or client who is looking for
someone who "knows Adobe Photoshop", or "knows 3D Studio", I simply
ignore the opportunity. A truly professional client or employer,
temporary or stable, isn't going to care one bit about "what software
you know", as much as they will care about "what kind of talent do you
have". When people ask for artists who know a certain suite of software
applications, you can bet that they are one of those wannabe graphics
service bureaus.
Software can be taught. Talent just is or isn't. At least in my
experience, anyway.
Stephen Edwards
>LOL!! Soooo True!!!
>This is the first rant post I have actually saved.
>.....priceless!
I don't post to USENET pro-bono either. You can send me your
credit card number via E-mail. Oh, and if you want my signature file,
there is an extra $17.00 for S&H (because of the increased weight of the
ASCII text).
[testimonial #1]
"Other rants just made me feel like I was wasting my time. People would
just gripe and piss and moan about the stupidest things. But not
Stephen. He whines and moans about things that are important,
like the death tax, and those ugly little yippy dogs that rich people
own. He's a real class act!"
[testimonial #2]
"Before I read Stephen's rants, I was in a tight spot. My boss pushed
me around, my neighbor constantly called me "pathetic dufus", and my
wife insisted on having sex with my Stanley power tools instead of me.
But Stephen's rants changed all of that. Now, my wife barbeques steaks
on the grill nightly all the while calling me "her hunky-man", my boss
offers to raise my salary by 75% on a daily basis, and my neighbor lets
me get lap dances from his 15 year-old daughter whenever I want. Thank
you, Stephen!"
And if you order now, any future upgrades to my rants are under
six-hundred dollars! That's right, just one easy payment of $599.99!
Don't miss out on this deal! Call and order now!
1-800-727-3936, that's 1-800-SCREWEM!
[cheesy low-budget advertising music]
Nick Hatzichristos
news:ubuh302...@corp.supernews.com...
> For example, whenever I hear of an employer or client who is looking for
> someone who "knows Adobe Photoshop", or "knows 3D Studio", I simply
> ignore the opportunity. A truly professional client or employer,
> temporary or stable, isn't going to care one bit about "what software
> you know", as much as they will care about "what kind of talent do you
> have". When people ask for artists who know a certain suite of software
> applications, you can bet that they are one of those wannabe graphics
> service bureaus.
I 'll have to disagree on that one. Most of the times it's not about
"wannabe graphics service bureaus" - not to name names, but I 'm sure we can
all think about a few VFX giants who usually look for users of a particular
package or another. If a CGI house has invested a (not too) small fortune
in, say, 10 Maya Unlimited seats, it's only reasonable that they don't want
to have to invest in more licenses of another package. Not to mention the
integration to their workflow, or, if they decide against buying a new
package, the lack of time (and willingness, and that's understandable too)
to train newly-hired artists to their preferred tools... The list goes on.
On the other hand, if it's *clients* we 're talking about, then yes, they
shouldn't care what you use as long as they get the output they expect.
Except in very specific - and maybe rare - cases.
> Software can be taught. Talent just is or isn't. At least in my
> experience, anyway.
100% agreed on that one.
Tesselator
"Seattle Eric" <spam...@spamknot.com> wrote in message news:a9n8ns$1ui$2...@216.39.135.10...
> js33 wrote:
>
> > We actually did several pro-bono
> > projects at a video company I used
> > to work for with the thought that it
> > might lead to real paying work which
> > of course it never did.
>
> Of course indeed. I'd be glad to hear of any such work that EVER lead
> to a paying gig.
My 3rd and 4th jobs were for free. He introduced me to all his friends.
Wined and dinned me and 6 months later gave me a professional S-VHS deck
worth $25,000 Since all his friends were higher-ups at NHK, CBC and
others, I got lots of paying jobs. I was even offered the opportunity
to become a television personality. Later I trained his studio members
how to use Amiga Toaster/LW3 for free and he gave me my first Digi-Beta
camcorder ~$50,000 Ofcourse this is probably pretty rare but it's how
I got my start. Also ofcourse I'm a good judge of character and I made
sure of who I was dealing with beforehand.
This was all before the "Asian Crisis". That would never happen now.
Fuzer
Checks in the maaa....
...ooops. I better not go there ;p
:::chris
"Stephen Edwards" <tg...@cyclic.aux.net> wrote in message
news:ubui8k1...@corp.supernews.com...
Stephen Edwards
>"Stephen Edwards" <tg...@cyclic.aux.net> wrote in message
>news:ubuh302...@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> For example, whenever I hear of an employer or client who is looking for
>> someone who "knows Adobe Photoshop", or "knows 3D Studio", I simply
>> ignore the opportunity. A truly professional client or employer,
>> temporary or stable, isn't going to care one bit about "what software
>> you know", as much as they will care about "what kind of talent do you
>> have". When people ask for artists who know a certain suite of software
>> applications, you can bet that they are one of those wannabe graphics
>> service bureaus.
>
>I 'll have to disagree on that one. Most of the times it's not about
>"wannabe graphics service bureaus" - not to name names, but I 'm sure we can
>all think about a few VFX giants who usually look for users of a particular
>package or another. If a CGI house has invested a (not too) small fortune
>in, say, 10 Maya Unlimited seats, it's only reasonable that they don't want
>to have to invest in more licenses of another package. Not to mention the
It's more likely that they would simply teach the artist how to use
their tools. They wouldn't have to worry about investing in other
software.
Let me illustrate my point a bit more:
I like to draw comic art. Now, does my ability to draw depend upon my
being able to use a pencil, as opposed to a pen, or a stick of charcoal?
Of course not. I can draw with any of those tools, because I understand
the general process, though I may not entirely understand all of the
concepts behind the technical parts of the tools, such as lead
dispensing, or ink-flow characteristics. Now granted, the more I know
about those tools, the more I can do with them. But unless I have the
initial ability to draw, what good am I to anyone who needs me to draw
pictures?
>integration to their workflow, or, if they decide against buying a new
>package, the lack of time (and willingness, and that's understandable too)
>to train newly-hired artists to their preferred tools... The list goes on.
It honestly doesn't take that long to teach a good artist how to use a
different tool. Most of the people in Hollywood who use SGI Octanes and
Fuel workstations got their start on NT workstations. Most people can
learn software, be it an operating system or a particular application,
in just a couple of weeks, and if they are very talented artists, that
time is usually well worth the investment.
bool
be compensated. After all, if it's worth using, it's worth paying for.
As far as portfolios go, if you are really interested in what you are doing
(and you pretty much have to be to stick with this career) then every job is
worth sticking in the ol' portfolio.
It's about appreciation for one's time and efforts. In the beginning, it's
easy to get suckered in because you are new and want some credit. I've done
my share of pro-bono work (I was such a graphics whore ;D). I never once saw
my name in lights. Just another hollow promise that I'd get more.
There are alot of "would-be-good" artists out there who just got discouraged
because of this. Sad loss.
-Bool
"Slartibartfast" <slartib...@magrathea.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1728e9148ce64723989726@news-server...
Nick Hatzichristos
> It's more likely that they would simply teach the artist how to use
> their tools. They wouldn't have to worry about investing in other
> software.
>
> Let me illustrate my point a bit more:
>
> I like to draw comic art. Now, does my ability to draw depend upon my
> being able to use a pencil, as opposed to a pen, or a stick of charcoal?
> Of course not. I can draw with any of those tools, because I understand
> the general process, though I may not entirely understand all of the
> concepts behind the technical parts of the tools, such as lead
> dispensing, or ink-flow characteristics. Now granted, the more I know
> about those tools, the more I can do with them. But unless I have the
> initial ability to draw, what good am I to anyone who needs me to draw
> pictures?
I still disagree. You can't compare the complexity of a brush or a piece of
charcoal, etc. with that of a tool like Lightwave, Maya, or maybe Inferno,
and others. Sure, having experience in one helps you learn the other, but
surely there's miles of difference between a 2-weeks user and a 2-years one
!
And of course, I never intended to take it to the exact opposite end. I 'm
not saying that studios should look for good *operators* without a shred of
talent.
And I stand by what I said, houses can't afford the several weeks it will
take even the most experienced artist to learn a new tool *well*. Unless
they 're going through a "slow" period, which might be a perfect opportunity
to do just that.
> >integration to their workflow, or, if they decide against buying a new
> >package, the lack of time (and willingness, and that's understandable
too)
> >to train newly-hired artists to their preferred tools... The list goes
on.
>
> It honestly doesn't take that long to teach a good artist how to use a
> different tool. Most of the people in Hollywood who use SGI Octanes and
> Fuel workstations got their start on NT workstations. Most people can
> learn software, be it an operating system or a particular application,
> in just a couple of weeks, and if they are very talented artists, that
> time is usually well worth the investment.
What one started out on is irrelevant, I think. Most people here started out
on Amigas, or 286 PCs with packages that look stone-age these days. Look at
where they are now. They went through that transition over a long period of
time, surely not just a few weeks. At least the really good ones did.
In a few words : learning a new tool is easy for a talented artist - it's
*mastering* it that takes time, time *usually* not afforded by the deadline
& budget - aware production houses.
Chris Brizon
Drink all, pay nowt. And if ever tha does owt for nowt, allus do it for
thisen"
> I got a phonecall from an individual who is working on a project that
> is not unlike the old "Hands Across America" sandal-wearing
> tree-hugging lovey-dovey hippie event that took place several years
> back. It's supposed to be a one-year commemoration for 9/11.
While on the surface this sounds like an ok idea, good cause and all that,
its likely unless the guy gave you solid proof that its genuine, its
probably just some scam using what happened on 9/11 to try win people over
to do work for nothing while their probably getting paid for it. It's sick
to think people will use things like that to try make themselves money but
it happens a lot.
> Needless to say, in the future, I'll be sure state my fees up front,
> so I won't waste valuable time listening to a group of fucking elitist
> liberal Democrat hippie nimrods asking for handouts.
Also by what you said, the guy didn't give any registered charity number,
which personally I would ask for straight away with something like this and
check up on them, if they can't supply one or start to make any excuses hang
up, or treat them like any other paying client. If their legit and have
nothing to hide, they'll happily give their details and let you get back to
them (afterall you'd be doing them a favor so they would be very
accomodating)
Ask yourself this, if you called them to do any work for you, would they
do it for free? Chances are they wouldn't, so why should you, might be the
wrong way to look at life, but hell, you gotta make a living too.
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
> I must ask, why is it that suit-wearing monkeys who have absolutely no
> clue about what people such as ourselves do just assume that our time
> is completely worthless? Are they really that stupid, or do they just
> think that people like us are that stupid? It's almost like some kind
> of strange natural phenomena that permeates the entire graphics
> market. It's not even like they wanted me to work for peanuts. They
> wanted me to work for an empty bag. Some people are just incredible.
>
> Needless to say, in the future, I'll be sure state my fees up front,
> so I won't waste valuable time listening to a group of fucking elitist
> liberal Democrat hippie nimrods asking for handouts.
>
> Sorry. Just needed to rant.
>
Early Ehlinger
"Nick Hatzichristos" <ni...@SPAMOUTotenet.gr> wrote
> I still disagree. You can't compare the complexity of a brush or a piece
of
> charcoal, etc. with that of a tool like Lightwave, Maya, or maybe Inferno,
> and others. Sure, having experience in one helps you learn the other, but
> surely there's miles of difference between a 2-weeks user and a 2-years
one
> !
> And of course, I never intended to take it to the exact opposite end. I 'm
> not saying that studios should look for good *operators* without a shred
of
> talent.
> And I stand by what I said, houses can't afford the several weeks it will
> take even the most experienced artist to learn a new tool *well*. Unless
> they 're going through a "slow" period, which might be a perfect
opportunity
> to do just that.
I'm going to have to both disagree and agree at the same time. Really, I'm
not two-faced at all...
If a person is talented and knows package "A", it implies that they know
enough about the process to know that they need achieve effect "X". The
only challenge is to translate "A" to package "B". True, that will take
time, and lots of it, but nowhere near the amount of time it will take
somebody who can't figure out that they need to achieve effect "X" in the
first place.
My partner and I use the term "Renaissance Man" to describe the type of
employees we're seeking - we don't particularly care if they already know
package "B", but we absolutely will not tolerate resistance to learning
package "B", and package "C", and package "D". There are certain musicians
who can pick up an instrument they've never seen before and play with
near-virtuoso skill in a half an hour simply because their ears are "that
good." This is the quality you want in an employee, if you can find it.
> What one started out on is irrelevant, I think. Most people here started
out
> on Amigas, or 286 PCs with packages that look stone-age these days. Look
at
> where they are now. They went through that transition over a long period
of
> time, surely not just a few weeks. At least the really good ones did.
Actually, the really good ones /did/ go through the transition in a few
weeks. And when the next big shift in hardware or software comes, they'll
go through that transition in a few weeks, too. Sure it might take months
to pick up all the nitty-gritty details, but they're already as productive
as your average 1-year user after just a few days.
> In a few words : learning a new tool is easy for a talented artist - it's
> *mastering* it that takes time, time *usually* not afforded by the
deadline
> & budget - aware production houses.
Deadline and budget aware production houses are also going to be smart
enough to realize that someone who can pick up 90% of what they need on a
product they've never seen in 2-4 days is a damned good employee, even if it
takes them weeks to get significantly closer to 100%. (Yes - I've been up
almost 24 hours. Forgive the ridiculously long sentence, please.)
--
-------- Early Ehlinger - CEO - ResPower Inc --------
- RenderFarm - Lightwave,3dSMax,Bryce @$0.50/CPU*Hr -
- www.respower.com Coming Soon - Maya @$1.00/CPU*Hr -
----------- SuperComputing For the Masses! ----------
Chris Brizon
> 2.) If you are financially unwilling, or strained, see 1.).
> 3.) If my policy annoys you, see 1.).
> 4.) If you think you might have "another angle", see 1.).
Hey, can we use them on our website?
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Stephen Edwards" <tg...@cyclic.aux.net> wrote in message
news:ubtr06...@corp.supernews.com...
Chris Brizon
they're
> ever so polite.
Yup, us Brits are thee most fucking polite bloody people who ever lived on
this shitehole planet
cucumber and salad cream sandwiches anyone?
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Seattle Eric" <spam...@spamknot.com> wrote in message
news:a9n8vf$2p1$1...@216.39.135.10...
Chris Brizon
make sure we get someone with experience in the software we use. Sure we
could get a great artist who does fantastic work in MAX but has never used
Lightwave. But what good would that be to us? We don't use MAX (never will)
so would have to invest time and money in training them up to use Lightwave,
which would clearly take far too long from scratch, with no guarantee they
would be able to grasp it. And it just wouldn't be cost effective to
purchase MAX and then have to convert files from the MAX format to LW,
aswell as possibly teaching the other guys basic MAX use, then there's all
the extra time spent cleaning up the converted MAX models etc. Just wouldn't
make sense, same goes with any program, I wouldn't say its just the wannabe
graphic service bureaus that ask for experience in software, I know a lot of
professional companies that will ask for experience in specific software if
that position requires it, I expect it infact. When I was just starting out
I couldn't get a job using certain programs on account of me never having
used them before, would have been a bad move employing me in those
positions, I would have lost them money, not made it cause I'd have to spend
most of the time learning. Last thing you want is to take some guy on and
then have them asking every five minutes how to do something, not only do
they waste time doing that, but the ones they start asking have to break
away from their work to help them, so how much you get done decreases, which
means less money, possibility of missing deadlines, maybe lose clients, and
after spending time and money training that one person, they might just
bugger off to another company and leave you in the lerch after using you to
learn.
Granted, you can't teach talent, your either born with it or you aren't, but
unless your a huge company with the funding and facilities to train people
up from scratch then your not going to want to take on someone without
experience.
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Nick Hatzichristos" <ni...@SPAMOUTotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:a9nhph$ev3$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
Chris Brizon
> It's more likely that they would simply teach the artist how to use
> their tools. They wouldn't have to worry about investing in other
> software.
As I've said, in most cases its just not cost effective. Ok, if its a very
simple program then yeah it wouldn't be a problem, something like Illusion,
learn it in a day at most. But we're talking about programs like Lightwave
and Maya. You don't, no matter how clever you are learn either of them in a
day, or a week, it takes months, even years to learn it properly, ask
Tesselator, he teaches both and his courses are just that, 100% courses, and
he's a professor, he teaches, thats his job, people learn everyday and thats
all it is, teaching and learning. But your talking about employing someone
and teaching them while they work, by people who are not teachers, the time
it'll take to learn will be even longer. And while all that is going on,
your very likely to be losing money. You'll find very few companies are
willing to do that. And as you said initially, you ignore those ad's where
they ask for experience in specific software, your making it difficult for
yourself if you do that. Many won't include messing about with software at
home as experience, anyone can do that. They will want real world
experience, in a production enviroment, likely with references so they know
that not only do you have talent, but you can also use the software they
will expect you to be using
> Let me illustrate my point a bit more:
>
> I like to draw comic art. Now, does my ability to draw depend upon my
> being able to use a pencil, as opposed to a pen, or a stick of charcoal?
> Of course not. I can draw with any of those tools, because I understand
> the general process, though I may not entirely understand all of the
> concepts behind the technical parts of the tools, such as lead
> dispensing, or ink-flow characteristics. Now granted, the more I know
> about those tools, the more I can do with them. But unless I have the
> initial ability to draw, what good am I to anyone who needs me to draw
> pictures?
Yeah, but you will have learnt how to use them over time, at school or
further education for example. You might have the talent, but you can't pick
up a new tool and automatically know how to use it. In your own admittance
you had to "learn" to use the tools at some point. Something like Lightwave
is no different.
> >integration to their workflow, or, if they decide against buying a new
> >package, the lack of time (and willingness, and that's understandable
too)
> >to train newly-hired artists to their preferred tools... The list goes
on.
>
> It honestly doesn't take that long to teach a good artist how to use a
> different tool. Most of the people in Hollywood who use SGI Octanes and
> Fuel workstations got their start on NT workstations. Most people can
> learn software, be it an operating system or a particular application,
> in just a couple of weeks, and if they are very talented artists, that
> time is usually well worth the investment.
Yeah, they can learn the basics, but in a real world enviroment thats just
not enough, you want someone who can hit the ground running, not someone
who'll still be learning a program when the rest of the team know the deal.
You want someone who you can go upto and say "right, we need this modelled
by Friday", they'll still be asking questions that they should in that
position know already. Yeah, if one of the other guys are free then they
could do it, but then your carrying dead weight and paying them just to toss
it off all day. You try teaching someone how to use Lightwave professionally
in just a few weeks and you'll see I'm right, its not possible. And to make
it more interesting, pay them a wage each month out of your own pocket
(while not making any money from them while their learning) and I bet you
won't want to do it again.
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Stephen Edwards" <tg...@cyclic.aux.net> wrote in message
news:ubuu5lt...@corp.supernews.com...
Chris Brizon
of
> charcoal, etc. with that of a tool like Lightwave, Maya, or maybe Inferno,
> and others. Sure, having experience in one helps you learn the other, but
> surely there's miles of difference between a 2-weeks user and a 2-years
one
> !
Exactly, learning to use a pencil would be the same as -just- learning to
use the one tool in Lightwave
> And of course, I never intended to take it to the exact opposite end. I 'm
> not saying that studios should look for good *operators* without a shred
of
> talent.
> And I stand by what I said, houses can't afford the several weeks it will
> take even the most experienced artist to learn a new tool
In most cases they just won't do that, its too risky, its not productive,
and why should they teach someone when there are courses out there to do
just that
> *well*. Unless
> they 're going through a "slow" period, which might be a perfect
opportunity
> to do just that.
I dunno, if their going through a slow period, perhaps taking on, paying a
salary and teaching someone new might not be the best thing to do, its extra
money going out that could be better invested in someone with talent, who
knows the software, who can jump straight in and help out with that new
demoreel to show off what the place can do
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Nick Hatzichristos" <ni...@SPAMOUTotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:a9nvtc$j38$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
Chris Brizon
Paint for me bitch!, paint!
:-P
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"bool" <res0...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ShLv8.43166$8W5...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Nick Hatzichristos
news:aeRv8.47508$To6.13...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> I'm going to have to both disagree and agree at the same time. Really,
I'm
> not two-faced at all...
; )
> If a person is talented and knows package "A", it implies that they know
> enough about the process to know that they need achieve effect "X". The
> only challenge is to translate "A" to package "B". True, that will take
> time, and lots of it, but nowhere near the amount of time it will take
> somebody who can't figure out that they need to achieve effect "X" in the
> first place.
No argument there. Like I said, I 'm not going to the opposite extreme. I 'm
definitely not trying to claim that an inexperienced artist is better than
one who is experienced in another package !
> My partner and I use the term "Renaissance Man" to describe the type of
> employees we're seeking - we don't particularly care if they already know
> package "B", but we absolutely will not tolerate resistance to learning
> package "B", and package "C", and package "D". There are certain
musicians
> who can pick up an instrument they've never seen before and play with
> near-virtuoso skill in a half an hour simply because their ears are "that
> good." This is the quality you want in an employee, if you can find it.
I see your point, but is your example a real-world one ? I mean, really,
there are people who can reach near-virtuoso level in instruments they 've
never seen before in half an hour ?! Now, if we 're talking about a
guitarist who picks up bass guitar, that's another thing - it's like going
from Lightwave on PC to Lightwave on Mac ; ) Anyway, let's not let this
wander off too much into (probably bad) music analogies.
> > What one started out on is irrelevant, I think. Most people here started
> out
> > on Amigas, or 286 PCs with packages that look stone-age these days. Look
> at
> > where they are now. They went through that transition over a long period
> of
> > time, surely not just a few weeks. At least the really good ones did.
>
> Actually, the really good ones /did/ go through the transition in a few
> weeks. And when the next big shift in hardware or software comes, they'll
> go through that transition in a few weeks, too. Sure it might take months
> to pick up all the nitty-gritty details, but they're already as productive
> as your average 1-year user after just a few days.
The decision and process of the transition was that quick, yes. I don't know
if you use Maya (I don't), but assuming you don't, picture yourself
abandoning LW and going to Maya. Now, besides the endless cursing from your
fellow wavers, 7 years of bad luck (this goes with the LW version) and
eternal damnation to the 4th (this goes with the Maya version) level of a 2D
hell, how long do you think it would take you to reach your current LW level
in Maya ? (Assuming you 're good at LW, hehe : P )
> > In a few words : learning a new tool is easy for a talented artist -
it's
> > *mastering* it that takes time, time *usually* not afforded by the
> deadline
> > & budget - aware production houses.
>
> Deadline and budget aware production houses are also going to be smart
> enough to realize that someone who can pick up 90% of what they need on a
> product they've never seen in 2-4 days is a damned good employee, even if
it
> takes them weeks to get significantly closer to 100%.
Realizing that is one thing, finding such a wonder artist is another. Come
on, 90% of a product they 've never seen before ? In 2-4 days ?
Even great, many-years-of-experience animators usually can't honestly say
they know 100% of their chosen product. I mean, can anyone ever dare say
that ?
> (Yes - I've been up
> almost 24 hours. Forgive the ridiculously long sentence, please.)
Oh it looked perfect to me - I 'm on my 21st hour and counting ; )
Chris Brizon
> weeks. And when the next big shift in hardware or software comes, they'll
> go through that transition in a few weeks, too.
Yeah, but when there's a major change in a studio, it doesn't just happen on
a whim. The ones at the top will more than likely do their homework first,
months, maybe years in advance, no company, big or small would just change
over from MAX to LW without some planning, without making sure they can
afford the downtime and keep it as minimal as possible while they change
things over, the employee's would probably get time to prepare well in
advance, and there would deffinately be a fallback option. The bigger the
company, the more they stand to risk.
> Sure it might take months
> to pick up all the nitty-gritty details, but they're already as productive
> as your average 1-year user after just a few days.
Yeah, but productivity will drop sharpley while they adjust to the new
software if they don't have previous experience in it. Even if they are the
best artists on the planet, they will still have to learn it if they haven't
used it before. They'd be used to how one program works, how you do
something in LW can be completely different in MAX or Maya, something that
can take a LW pro minutes to do in LW, might take them a couple of hours in
another package they don't know very well if atall. Add all that extra time
up and you can see its considerable. Just because it seems on the surface
that a company might have changed overnight from one setup to another, in
reality it will have probably been going on for months already, behind the
scenes, at the same time as their using what they normally would, slowly
preparing the staff. It could be corporate suicide to just decide to change
everything over in one day. Nobody would be prepared, there wouldn't be
ample time to learn, profits would drop, likely many would become pissed off
and lose interest (especially if their suddenly forced to use a program they
hate with no warning) last thing you want is unhappy employee's who could
just walk out, then what do you do? a major deadline coming up, staff
problems, have to bring in new talent, but then, if you do what's being
suggested on this thread "take on people with talent and no experience in
the software" you'll have to go train them up too, wasting more time, more
money. Company likely goes bust (worst case scenario, but hey it happens, it
happens a lot)
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Early Ehlinger" <ear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aeRv8.47508$To6.13...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com...
>
Kevin F Stubbs
Cheers
Kevin F Stubbs
Kayef Select Limited
Chris Brizon
--
"Kevin F Stubbs" <kevin_f...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:3CBFF581...@virgin.net...
Proffesor Falken
ground and there were few other places to get your expertise from, but
you may have been dealing with someone with a conscience.
This commodity is required to be discarded when you put on a suit.
or could it be that a lack of creativity is the sign of a souless git
Proffesor Falken
collegues, a bloody good 3d game artist who worked on my last project
for which I was doing the lingo programming.
They were using Max and I gave him a demo copy of lightwave
and after hours we discussed verious ways in which the workflow
differed between the two, I have always thought max was "clunky" for
want of a better word and I don't have the time to learn it at
present.
Anyhow his next contract is for a gaming company that uses lightwave
in the UK and even with a few months playing with the demo betwwen
contracts is still taken him 3-4 to begin to come up to the speed of
his normal productivity.
Now this guy is a very talented artist with a lot of skill at low poly
modelling. HE is also in an enviroment where he probably has skilled
lightwavers in his development team to draw on if he gets stuck.
If it took him a good couple of months under those circumstances
What chance does the poor smuck working on his own have?
BTW This guy is now a lightwave convert YEAHHHHHHH!!!!!
Proffesor Falken
<bri...@removemehades-studios.com> wrote:
>> 1.) I absolutely do not work for "free", "gratis", or "pro-bono".
>> 2.) If you are financially unwilling, or strained, see 1.).
>> 3.) If my policy annoys you, see 1.).
>> 4.) If you think you might have "another angle", see 1.).
The only possicible exception to this clause is if you have devoted at
least 18-20 to my welfare and education.
and shucks even my Dad would make sure i was not out of pocket.
I might under certain circumstances do work for a charity as a
donation of my time instead of money, but then I would be clear
that that was a charitable act on my part and give without expecting
anything in return.
I might on a bigger project offer a discounted rate, but if my
services are vital to the success of the project, and though my
expretise the project raises cash that it would not otherwise raise,
PAY ME !!!! if I feel charitable after you settle your bill on time, I
might make a donation.
After you pay your accountants and auditors even if you are a charity
don't you??
Lizard Head CGI
tg...@cyclic.aux.net (Stephen Edwards) wrote in message news:<ubui8k1...@corp.supernews.com>...
Renderking Fisk
I actually talked to Nick or Matches14 about this, who BEGGED me to be
careful and not ruin my career by talking about this. Since learning that
EVERYTHING that I've ever said on these News-Groups can be found via Google,
I figure I got to be EXTRA careful.
I know first hand there are MANY awesome studios starting out that are on
the up-and-up. This, though, is an exsample of the worst...
I got involved with an organization that was just starting out. A senior
officer was running it from a huge HUGE firm in the mid-west. This guy woke
up one morning and said: I feel/hear a calling to start my own thing on the
East Coast. So far so good. which I could do that. Walk a way from great
success with a house hold name and start something all my own.
When my wife and I heard this guy, "Dan", is starting this new production
company; we went to the open house. It was an ice cream social with displays
and documentation. and a long-winded speech on what he did in the mid-west
and how he wanted to do the same here. He wanted to start a grass roots
organization, and he wanted to keep it small and have it "Family Oriented.
We would be cutting edge; we would become a model for other production
companies in the future. The wife and I were excited.
Just starting out, couldn't hire anyone direct full time yet. There were
about 20 of us and we were broken up into three teams, Visual, Audio and
Management. We did a LOT of shameless self-promotion, fairs, and
conventions. The work slowly started to come in. But no money yet. just
Pro-Bono work with the promise of a full time paycheck someday vary soon.
and stock.
Of course, I found myself being the second senior Visual guy. the director
of the Visual Team, "Buddy", actually worked in Hollywood as an actor and
did a few films. All of us in the Visual Team (at one time there was 10 of
us, but in the end there were 5 who were solid through out this whole mess)
would all get together nights and weekend and crank out the work. Often
times, long hours of work would be thrown out at the last minute cause "Dan"
had a brilliant idea and wanted to change everything. "Buddy", did a good
job not showing us how pissed he was.
Keep in mind, nobody's seen a penny. This is all "Community Outreach" stuff
and we could understand why we weren't getting anything yet. Some of us,
like Buddy. were working 40 hrs a week on "Community Outreach" ON TOP OF the
his regular job. I wasn't far behind.
Fast-forward a year. I was forced to quit my high paying Technical Support
job cause the "Community Outreach" work I was doing was getting in the way.
I found that every waking moment away from work was spent on this "Community
Outreach". I was getting 4 or 3 hours of sleep while working on these
"Pro-Bono" projects and my paying job was suffering.
But when I left the paying job. I was told by Dan that I would be able to do
the "Community Outreach" stuff full time and get "compensated".
When I heard I was going to be "Compensated", I was on top of the world and
I thought I was leaving the Technical Support job for something better.
Then, I learned what being "Compensated" meant. Stocks. He was paying me in
Stocks. I was given stocks when there wasn't even an IPO yet. They were
worthless until we had our IPO.
With in 5 months, while working 60hr weeks. and getting worthless stock. the
house was in foreclosure, we were three months behind on the Car payments.
Carol and I were cashing in stock from HER company she worked for just to
eat and upgrade the equipment. All this while Dan is making more and more
demands and telling me I needed to upgrade my own stuff and then write that
off of my own taxes. I went over to his house and told him that I needed to
cover some bills, I need more then what I'm getting. Then, I kid you not. he
goes over to his computer, and prints out 10 bogus stock certificates. And
in his sickly sweet yet demanding voice he said in the basement/office he
just had refinished: "I don't know why it always has to be about money."
One week, I was flooded with calls. he was missing a high-end video card and
thought he had given it to me. I didn't even know one existed with in
"Community Outreach" and I didn't have it. But with his sickly sweet voice,
he said. "Ok. I'm sure it will show up." That, was the beginning of the end.
Buddy heard about the money troubles Carol and I were having and one night
in June he called me. "I'm pulling you off these projects" I was pissed.
"Why?" He gave me a long, drawn out speech about how we all need to spend
less time on "Community Outreach" and start looking out for our selves. He
told me that something was up and couldn't tell me about it later.
Two weeks later, I got another good paying job. It's not graphics but at
least its paying the bills. I cut back on "Community Outreach" and I'm
slowly getting more and more projects taken away from me.
Shortly there after, Buddy told all of us with in the Video Group that he
had to quit for a while and was leaving it up to us to carry on. It wasn't
until then we realized how much more then Video Group Buddy was doing. All
other aspects fell a part with in "Community Outreach".
Then this married couple show up to "Community Outreach" and they start to
take over the rolls that we were doing. Shelly, one of the women who had
been working as team leader of the Audio Group was pushed aside and was
forced to write a letter stating that she was stepping down into a smaller
roll and letting the husband of this couple take over. The wife of this
dynamic duo was taking over the Video.
Those of us who were there from the start Video, Audio and Management
DEMANDED that we get together and talk about the direction of "Community
Outreach" and where the money was going. We were pulling in THOUSANDS each
week and nobody saw a penny. Some of us even donated some of our own cash to
see "Community Outreach" succeed.
Instead of a meeting, Carol and I got a letter stating that Dan was proud to
announce that we were growing and that we were now able to hire two people
on direct. the married couple who just started working two months ago. These
people were drawing a check from "Community Outreach" the week they started.
Here we were, the folks who were there from the start, and we got nothing
but worthless stock. No IPO, nothing. To this date there hasn't been an IPO.
I left. I quit. I threw out everything from "Community Outreach". With the
letter in hand, I erased every template, every file; everything that I had
done for "Community Outreach" was gone. Then I got a series of e-mails and
phone calls looking for the stuff the wife needed the stuff Buddy and I did
over the past 3 years.
Since then, Buddy and I have been doing things here and there with the
former members of "Community Outreach". We're not doing anything for pay
yet. and I doubt we ever will. With all we've been though we're pretty much
a small group of friends doing this for fun.
. And none of us have been able to do anything with the bogus stock we were
given over the past 3 years.
Revanto
> Yup, us Brits are thee most fucking polite bloody people who ever lived on
> this shitehole planet
Hey, this planet is not a shithole. Sadly, it's populated by a majority of
assheads.
I love this planet. It's pretty.
Revanto
Age 8
Renderking Fisk
offers I get to work for free are nearly endless :) They almost all say,
with a straight face, that they are giving me a chance to get my work out in
the public eye and seen. I think it's the same in every field, every one
The absolute worst? (Besides the expericne I posted about earlier today)?
Geeks who are working on thier "Fan-Flims". Those idiots need to get a life.
"If you can't help me, Can you help me find a Warz version so I can do it
myself?" Uh... no. Find another loozah who doesn't have a wife, baby and
mortgage to take care of.
Renderking Fisk
> I don't post to USENET pro-bono either. You can send me your
> credit card number via E-mail. Oh, and if you want my signature file,
> there is an extra $17.00 for S&H (because of the increased weight of the
> ASCII text).
Hey, this is my corner!
And kids... look out for a collection of all my greatest works! "Coffee
Educed Rants" by Renderking Fisk... coming ot a bargan bin near you!
Renderking Fisk
> It's more likely that they would simply teach the artist how to use >
their tools. They wouldn't have to worry about investing in other
> software.
Sorry, buddy... but this is almost unheard of now. You can either hit the
ground running or not at all. With the market flooded with people who
already know "the right" package, and studios under tight budgets and
dead-lines... there isn't enough 'on the job' training anymore. If at all.
[Watch someone prove me wrong... and ask me to come work for them... just my
luck.]
>
> It honestly doesn't take that long to teach a good artist how to use a
> different tool. Most of the people in Hollywood who use SGI Octanes and
> Fuel workstations got their start on NT workstations. Most people can
> learn software, be it an operating system or a particular application,
> in just a couple of weeks, and if they are very talented artists, that
> time is usually well worth the investment.that to live."
I would like to hold on to the notion that there isn't anything I can't do
in LightWave and a few choice plug-in's that can be done in Maya or anyother
program. I look forward to the days when studios can look past what platform
is "The Flavor of the Month."
Renderking Fisk
"Chris Brizon" <bri...@removemehades-studios.com> wrote in message
news:a9oqr9$rr7$7...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >(I was such a graphics whore ;D
>
> Paint for me bitch!, paint!
>
I got a sandwich board that I wear on the street corner- "Will Render scenes
for Food, Gas, and Booze!"
Renderking Fisk
> I couldn't get a job using certain programs on account of me never having
> used them before, would have been a bad move employing me in those
> positions, I would have lost them money, not made it cause I'd have to
spend
> most of the time learning. Last thing you want is to take some guy on and
> then have them asking every five minutes how to do something, not only do
> they waste time doing that, but the ones they start asking have to break
> away from their work to help them, so how much you get done decreases,
which
> means less money, possibility of missing deadlines, maybe lose clients,
and
> after spending time and money training that one person, they might just
> bugger off to another company and leave you in the lerch after using you
to
> learn.
I went to LA one week, looking for work after mastering Ray Dream Studio,
Bryce3D and PhotoShopLT... If I can master those... everything else can be a
walk in the park. After the 5th HR assistant told me I need to learn a
"LightWave" or two... I realized that I wasted my time and money on air-fare
and should have bought a package "like LightWave".
Renderking Fisk
They either shut down NPR, or give me a bigger tax refund.
bool
"Chris Brizon" <bri...@removemehades-studios.com> wrote in message
news:a9oqr9$rr7$7...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Early Ehlinger
> "Early Ehlinger" <ear...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > My partner and I use the term "Renaissance Man" to describe the type of
> > employees we're seeking - we don't particularly care if they already
know
> > package "B", but we absolutely will not tolerate resistance to learning
> > package "B", and package "C", and package "D". There are certain
> musicians
> > who can pick up an instrument they've never seen before and play with
> > near-virtuoso skill in a half an hour simply because their ears are
"that
> > good." This is the quality you want in an employee, if you can find it.
>
> I see your point, but is your example a real-world one ? I mean, really,
> there are people who can reach near-virtuoso level in instruments they 've
> never seen before in half an hour ?! Now, if we 're talking about a
> guitarist who picks up bass guitar, that's another thing - it's like going
> from Lightwave on PC to Lightwave on Mac ; ) Anyway, let's not let this
> wander off too much into (probably bad) music analogies.
I must admit, that I have nothing substantial to back up that statement, but
again, I was half-asleep when I wrote it. Please excuse any outlandishness
to that claim.
I've heard such tales said of, for example, Prince. Of course, one has to
take that with a grain of salt, given Prince's music.
(Note to those who may be offended by my implication that Prince sucks, I'm
sorry to have offended you, but I stand by my opinion. Prince sucks.)
> The decision and process of the transition was that quick, yes. I don't
know
> if you use Maya (I don't), but assuming you don't, picture yourself
> abandoning LW and going to Maya. Now, besides the endless cursing from
your
> fellow wavers, 7 years of bad luck (this goes with the LW version) and
> eternal damnation to the 4th (this goes with the Maya version) level of a
2D
> hell, how long do you think it would take you to reach your current LW
level
> in Maya ? (Assuming you 're good at LW, hehe : P )
Actually, I'm more of a programmer than a modeler; I'm the "supercomputing"
wing of our company. So the assumption that I'm any good at LW is probably
not a good one to make. I could probably model something relatively complex
if you held a gun to my head and gave me a month. To put your analogy into
my general area of work, if I abandoned my programming language of choice
(C++) and switched to an Evil, mostly unrelated language (say, Ada), it
would probably take me a week or two to hit 90% as productive as I currently
am. I speak somewhat from experience, having switched for various projects
to other languages like LISP, Pascal, and VB, or FORTRAN.
(Note to those who may be offended by my characterisation of Ada as evil:
I'm sorry if you are offended by my characterisation, but Ada is EVIL. Oh
yeah, and Prince sucks.)
> > > In a few words : learning a new tool is easy for a talented artist -
> it's
> > > *mastering* it that takes time, time *usually* not afforded by the
> > deadline
> > > & budget - aware production houses.
> >
> > Deadline and budget aware production houses are also going to be smart
> > enough to realize that someone who can pick up 90% of what they need on
a
> > product they've never seen in 2-4 days is a damned good employee, even
if
> it
> > takes them weeks to get significantly closer to 100%.
>
> Realizing that is one thing, finding such a wonder artist is another. Come
> on, 90% of a product they 've never seen before ? In 2-4 days ?
> Even great, many-years-of-experience animators usually can't honestly say
> they know 100% of their chosen product. I mean, can anyone ever dare say
> that ?
Agreed, anybody who claims to know 100% of a sufficiently complex system
like Lightwave is either lying or really needs a life.
90% "of what they need" [to be productive], not 90% "of what the product
offers". When I first learned C++, I had about 90% of what I needed to be
at my (for the time) best level of productivity within a few days. That was
about 8 years ago, IIRC, and I still haven't hit 100% of what C++ has to
offer (nor am I close, by all accounts).
In fact, a news://comp.lang.c++.moderated newsgroup poster said something
recently that I identify with:
(rough quote, don't recall who said it...)
"Every morning I wake up and think that I've hit 'guru' status with C++.
And then I read this newsgroup and realize just how much I still don't
know."
And you're totally right about finding Renaissance people - they are *not*
common by any stretch of the imagination. I'd give my right arm to have a
team of them working for me. Well, maybe my left arm anyway.
Early Ehlinger
> > Sure it might take months
> > to pick up all the nitty-gritty details, but they're already as
productive
> > as your average 1-year user after just a few days.
>
> Yeah, but productivity will drop sharpley while they adjust to the new
> software if they don't have previous experience in it. Even if they are
the
> best artists on the planet, they will still have to learn it if they
haven't
> used it before. They'd be used to how one program works, how you do
> something in LW can be completely different in MAX or Maya, something that
> can take a LW pro minutes to do in LW, might take them a couple of hours
in
> another package they don't know very well if atall. Add all that extra
time
> up and you can see its considerable.
The amount of time that it takes to make the transition is inversely related
to the ability of the person involved to understand the concepts involved.
To put this another way, there are two basic types of users; those who
understand the concepts and those who understand the procedures. The latter
are more greatly affected by new software. The former will be annoyed by
the differences, and will take a productivity hit, but will rebound quickly.
> Just because it seems on the surface
> that a company might have changed overnight from one setup to another, in
> reality it will have probably been going on for months already, behind the
> scenes, at the same time as their using what they normally would, slowly
> preparing the staff. It could be corporate suicide to just decide to
change
> everything over in one day. Nobody would be prepared, there wouldn't be
> ample time to learn, profits would drop, likely many would become pissed
off
> and lose interest (especially if their suddenly forced to use a program
they
> hate with no warning) last thing you want is unhappy employee's who could
> just walk out, then what do you do?
This is a different issue altogether, but your point is totally valid. You
don't want to just switch instantly. Although in some cases you don't have
a choice. For example, when Lightwave 7 came out, we were advertising
Lightwave 6.5 rendering services. Customers suddenly wanted LW 7, so we had
to switch, and overnight. So we did.
> a major deadline coming up, staff
> problems, have to bring in new talent, but then, if you do what's being
> suggested on this thread "take on people with talent and no experience in
> the software" you'll have to go train them up too, wasting more time, more
> money. Company likely goes bust (worst case scenario, but hey it happens,
it
> happens a lot)
I'll take a person with talent and no experience in our software over
somebody who knows our software but is a complete hack any day. If you're
staffing up a magazine, for example, and had your choice between a
Shakespeare who's never seen Word, and somebody that happens to be excellent
at typing and can tell you what every last checkbox on every last dialog in
Word does, but who has never written a word with more than two syllables,
who would you choose? Not too many people are gonna buy your magazine if
you go with the Word-savant.
Yes, there are tradeoffs. If you have a choice between two equal writers
and one knows Word as well, then choose the Word expert. If you're looking
at two entry-level modelers and one of them knows Max, the other knows
Lightwave, then pick the Lightwave guy (assuming you're a LW shop). In the
abscence of people who are clearly shining stars on the rise, you have to
fall back on the "do you know product X?" questions.
Stephen Edwards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On 4/19/02, 11:32:06 AM, "Renderking Fisk" <ecf...@earthlink.net> wrote
regarding Re: The one word that no graphics guru wants to hear...
"pro-bono".:
> > I don't post to USENET pro-bono either. You can send me your
> > credit card number via E-mail. Oh, and if you want my signature file,
> > there is an extra $17.00 for S&H (because of the increased weight of the
> > ASCII text).
> Hey, this is my corner!
I see. That is a problem. I'm afraid there is only
one fair way to settle this little territory dispute
of ours.
*BLAM!* *BLAM!*
[Stephen blows the blue smoke from the barrels of his
double-barrel 12-guage hogleg]
Now... about that vehicle that'll haul that tanker.
:-)
Stephen Edwards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On 4/18/02, 7:39:14 PM, "Nick Hatzichristos" <ni...@SPAMOUTotenet.gr> wrote
regarding Re: The one word that no graphics guru wants to hear...
"pro-bono".:
> "Stephen Edwards" <tg...@cyclic.aux.net> wrote in message
> news:ubuu5lt...@corp.supernews.com...
> > It's more likely that they would simply teach the artist how to use
> > their tools. They wouldn't have to worry about investing in other
> > software.
> >
> > Let me illustrate my point a bit more:
> >
> > I like to draw comic art. Now, does my ability to draw depend upon my
> > being able to use a pencil, as opposed to a pen, or a stick of charcoal?
> > Of course not. I can draw with any of those tools, because I understand
> > the general process, though I may not entirely understand all of the
> > concepts behind the technical parts of the tools, such as lead
> > dispensing, or ink-flow characteristics. Now granted, the more I know
> > about those tools, the more I can do with them. But unless I have the
> > initial ability to draw, what good am I to anyone who needs me to draw
> > pictures?
> I still disagree.
Okay. As long as you agree to my statements without hesitation,
I can accept that.
BTW, did I mention that I attended the Tony Futaboca Debating Academy
of Horville, AK?
Stephen Edwards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On 4/19/02, 2:58:56 AM, "Chris Brizon" <bri...@removemehades-studios.com>
wrote regarding Re: The one word that no graphics guru wants to hear...
"pro-bono".:
> >(I was such a graphics whore ;D
> Paint for me bitch!, paint!
> :-P
No! No, no, no, no, NO!@#
*MAFIA-SLAP!*
Chris, that's supposed to be _PANT_, not "paint".
Do you think any self-respecting ho' is going
to give you your full cut if you can't even say
the right words while back-handing her cottage
cheese ass onto the floor?
Listen up, buster. You'll never become a bad
assed pimp with that kind of incompetent grasp
of the butchering of the English language.
Now pick up that ebonics dictionary, and read,
biatch!
Curious
> (rough quote, don't recall who said it...)
> "Every morning I wake up and think that I've hit 'guru' status with C++.
> And then I read this newsgroup and realize just how much I still don't
> know."
And there are good sides in thing one never knows all. Would one have some
interest to continue after reach level there's no possibility go any further
anymore, or would one just start learn something else? :)
One of best thing in learning is that more you learn, less you know (in a
way) because always find out so many new things that you had even no idea of
and you realize there's always so much things you do not know at all. That
should keep one humble and trying learn more ;)
<snip>
Renderking Fisk
Better be good to me or I'll smite you with one whole chapter in my "Coffee
Educed Rants" by Renderking Fisk... [coming ot a bargan bin near you!] I
think it will be, "Chapeter 11- Stephen Edwards was once mean to me!"
"Stephen Edwards" <anam...@extremezone.com> wrote in message
news:20020420...@mis.configured.host...
Renderking Fisk
"Stephen Edwards" <anam...@cyclic.aux.net> wrote in message
news:3cbe5ddb...@news.extremezone.com...
>
[SNIP]
>
> I must ask, why is it that suit-wearing monkeys who have absolutely no
> clue about what people such as ourselves do just assume that our time
> is completely worthless? Are they really that stupid, or do they just
> think that people like us are that stupid? It's almost like some kind
> of strange natural phenomena that permeates the entire graphics
> market. It's not even like they wanted me to work for peanuts. They
> wanted me to work for an empty bag. Some people are just incredible.
>
> so I won't waste valuable time listening to a group of fucking elitist
> liberal Democrat hippie nimrods asking for handouts.
>
> Sorry. Just needed to rant.
[SNIP]
I CAN'T BELIEVE I FORGOT THIS ONE!
(Check out my other long winded rant on this subject... Worse the Pro-Bono -
working for "Stocks"... not cash.)
Got a phone call from my father, his boss was in a panic because the company
was putting in a contract bid for buoy's they made for the Coast Guard...
and they had NO pictures of the buoy in the water. One of the demands that
the Coast Guard has with the contractors is that they see the actual
prototype in action. You can't take pictures of a product that doesn't exist
yet, can you?
After everything I did in less then a week, I rendered some pretty
impressive image while not having worked with LightWave for vary long. I had
built the digital model, make an ocean and render this to look
photorealistic. This packet to the Coast Gaurd with my images had to be
post-marked by that Friday. I started Monday night...and got it finished
with time to spare...
They won this multi-Million dollar contract with the images I made. My
father, being the jack-ass he is, demanded that his boss make it right with
me. "You won that contract cause my son made those pictures of this
prototype that DIDN'T EXIST. I think he deserves something."
His bosses response: "Why should I pay him, he enjoyed doing it." I called
him up and said: "Would you not pay the doctor who saved your fathers life
because the doctor actually ENJOYS open-heart-surgery?"
Next week, I got a check for $250. Hoo hoo.
Proffesor Falken
On Sat, 20 Apr 2002 16:50:24 GMT, "Renderking Fisk"
<ecf...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>They won this multi-Million dollar contract with the images I made. My
>father, being the jack-ass he is, demanded that his boss make it right with
>me. "You won that contract cause my son made those pictures of this
>prototype that DIDN'T EXIST. I think he deserves something."
>
>His bosses response: "Why should I pay him, he enjoyed doing it." I called
>him up and said: "Would you not pay the doctor who saved your fathers life
>because the doctor actually ENJOYS open-heart-surgery?"
>
>Next week, I got a check for $250. Hoo hoo.
$250 for a weeks work and saving the MD's ASS
Shit you still got scalped !
Rule no 1
next time negociate while you have his gonads in your grasp
He should have put another zero on the end of that at least
posscibly 2
I dont walk out of anyones office without a written shedule of work
a deposit of 25% up front, agreed progress payments and nobody get the
Betacam, CD or DVD without payment on deliverables.
After bitter exprience watching a friends studio get scalped for a
video production I never work any other way.
Those should be your terms of business, and its my way or the highway
baby, and who ever we are dealing with knows it, sometimes as early as
the initial enquiry. Its the only way to do business, and if it is
suguested that it might enhance my reputation to be associated with
the client, I politly inform them that it won't since most of what i
do is uncredited and should be unseen by the clients audience.
WHY because good programming, good artwork, good navigation and
good CGI is invisible, because what you want the audience to e
concentration on is the CLIENTS MESSAGE.
Sometimes you have to point this out to the client.
If its sugguested that we work for nothing I might say something like
"you know I could do that but theres a real danger in the method you
are sugguesting. firstly not been properly renumeration kinda spoils
my concentration, Is hard to be creative when there is finacial hassle
in the back ground so I have found if you want me best job I can for
you, i need to have this stuff sorted and agreed up front so i am free
to give your project the attention it deserves, you came to me for my
creative edge right? So why blunt it?
Second if I went the route you suggest to gain recognition, kudos, to
get my name out there, thats why i have a showreel, and you asked to
see that before you approached me, Now if notice that showreel was al
about me, and if want this project to be a showreel on my behalf fine,
but it might detract from aims of what you want this project to do for
you. So rather than concentrate on what this is going to do for me,
lets get serious and concetrate on what you want it to do for you."
If every one in the industry behaved the same then we wouldn't have
these stories
I DO NOT DO WORK ON SPEC, PRO BONO, FOR STOCK.
You will never benifit for working for nothing.
Work by definition involves PAYMENT PEOPLE !!!!
Renderking Fisk
Proffesor Falken...
I learned my lesson long ago. But your e-mail is an AWESOME reminder.
>
> I DO NOT DO WORK ON SPEC, PRO BONO, FOR STOCK.
"For Stock"... Oh, so you did read my first rant... Good.
>
> You will never benifit for working for nothing.
I hate it when people say: "At least you got the experince". WRONG... I get
plenty of that doing my own projects and pushing myself.
>
> Work by definition involves PAYMENT PEOPLE !!!!
When was the last time you left in the morning and said: "Good bye, honey!
I'm going to Play! Shessh! I hope traffic isn't heavy. I would hate to be
late to Play!" ? Never?
>
>
Stephen Edwards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On 4/20/02, 8:39:36 AM, "Renderking Fisk" <ecf...@earthlink.net> wrote
regarding Re: The one word that no graphics guru wants to hear...
"pro-bono".:
> Oh, you think so!
> Better be good to me or I'll smite you with one whole chapter in my
"Coffee
> Educed Rants" by Renderking Fisk... [coming ot a bargan bin near you!] I
> think it will be, "Chapeter 11- Stephen Edwards was once mean to me!"
8< SNIP >8
You know, that's what I really like about this group...
everyone here has a well-calibrated sense of humor. :-)
Chris Brizon
> and after hours we discussed verious ways in which the workflow
> differed between the two, I have always thought max was "clunky" for
> want of a better word and I don't have the time to learn it at
> present.
MAX is over complex, there's times when you just want to do something simple
and it overpowers you. Maya is guilty to an extent too, but more forgiving
because its very close to the way Lightwave works in a lot of ways
> Anyhow his next contract is for a gaming company that uses lightwave
> in the UK and even with a few months playing with the demo between
> contracts is still taken him 3-4 to begin to come up to the speed of
> his normal productivity.
>
> Now this guy is a very talented artist with a lot of skill at low poly
> modelling. HE is also in an enviroment where he probably has skilled
> lightwavers in his development team to draw on if he gets stuck.
>
> If it took him a good couple of months under those circumstances
>
> What chance does the poor smuck working on his own have?
That's the catch, but we've all been there at some point, it is tuff, it
does sound unfair, but from the point of view of the employer its entirely
understandable, companies in general wont take on inexperienced staff who
pretty much wont be generating any profit for the company for the duration
of them being trained up, and could easily just bugger off once they've got
their training - which could happen, afterall the individual has their
career to think about, and armed with the needed training will want to keep
moving up the ladder. It's just a very risky business.
On the other hand, you could probably employ a beginner for a smaller
salary than a pro, but it would be a case of you get what you pay for. While
the pro might be demanding a great deal more, your going to be getting many
years experience, he or she will probably teach your other staff a thing or
two aswell, will have more in common with the others if your all on the same
level, sharing idea's and such, knowing what each other is talking about
etc.. But paying less for less experience, they'll be asking more questions,
doing less work (because their still learning the basics) pulling away
others from their work and so on ultimately not being cost effective. Best
advice is try get experience on anything you can, or make a conscious
decision to avoid companies that use certain software, but for an artist
that could be the difference between eating, and not
and Newtek releasing a demo of Lightwave just goes to show how useful they
are, your friend got a good few months of learning the software, that he
wouldn't have got without the demo (and probably would have meant he
wouldn't have got the job) So really, anyone worried these days can grab a
demo of these very expensive programs and learn in their own time, aswell as
courses or work experience. Before the demo's I'll agree it was a catch 22,
you couldn't get a job that paid well enough to buy the software to learn,
so you could get the well paid job to buy the software to learn and so on,
and so on, and so oh you get the idea :-)
and as you say, he's a LW convert now, so its all good news :-))
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Proffesor Falken" <prof....@claranet.com> wrote in message
news:7j20cuorlk8pv35ti...@4ax.com...
Chris Brizon
but I'm shallow enough to take credit for it ;-P
> The only possicible exception to this clause is if you have devoted at
> least 18-20 to my welfare and education.
>
> and shucks even my Dad would make sure i was not out of pocket.
>
> I might under certain circumstances do work for a charity as a
> donation of my time instead of money, but then I would be clear
> that that was a charitable act on my part and give without expecting
> anything in return.
I wouldn't do nothing for free unless it was -my- idea to do it in the
beginning, and that I approached them, if anyone comes asking me to do
something for free they wont get it (and genuine decent charities don't go
begging) and those that do, the more they try "sell" the idea to me, the
more it appears they've done it often before to refine their technique (they
still wont get it for free)
> I might on a bigger project offer a discounted rate, but if my
> services are vital to the success of the project, and though my
> expretise the project raises cash that it would not otherwise raise,
> PAY ME !!!! if I feel charitable after you settle your bill on time, I
> might make a donation.
Oh yeah, nothing wrong with that, because its ultimately your decision, not
them after freebies from you, a worthwhile charity would appreciate a
donation more anyway.
And I'll offer discounts for students for example, but thats only cause
students wouldn't be able to afford my services normally heheh
> After you pay your accountants and auditors even if you are a charity
> don't you??
And we -all- know how much those guys charge per hour.. we're in the wrong
game aren't we :-)
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Proffesor Falken" <prof....@claranet.com> wrote in message
news:to10cus5q9eq5t4g8...@4ax.com...
Chris Brizon
bugger, it wont let me give you the number until she's 16, shame :-P
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Lizard Head CGI" <cybera...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9d0fdd73.0204...@posting.google.com...
Chris Brizon
it causes difficulties down the line with future employers
Something I didn't realise years ago when I was just starting out, and still
regret, so there's a warning to be careful, mud sticks :-)
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Renderking Fisk" <ecf...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:s9Wv8.20981$L1.16...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Chris Brizon
> Revanto
> Age 8
>
lol
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Revanto" <rev...@yarrr-hoo.com> wrote in message
news:3cc034cb$0$15472$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Chris Brizon
> Geeks who are working on thier "Fan-Flims". Those idiots need to get a
life.
hehe, there not all bad, granted some are awful, but I've seen a few that
look pretty good, the Episode II trick-trailer certainly got people
wondering if it was the real thing when it was first uploaded
But then Christopher Walken would make a great Sith Lord, kinda like his
Gabriel in the Prophecy only with a Lightsabre and an urge to beat up Jedi
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Renderking Fisk" <ecf...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:wkZv8.11$bS3....@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net...
Chris Brizon
> Educed Rants" by Renderking Fisk... coming ot a bargan bin near you!
we're can we find cracks of that?
:-P
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Renderking Fisk" <ecf...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:FoZv8.13$bS3....@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net...
Chris Brizon
hey, atleast I'm honest ;-D
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Renderking Fisk" <ecf...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6IZv8.18$bS3....@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net...
Chris Brizon
> him up and said: "Would you not pay the doctor who saved your fathers life
> because the doctor actually ENJOYS open-heart-surgery?"
I think I'll use that the next time someone tries the old "but he enjoys it"
routine, nice one :-)
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Renderking Fisk" <ecf...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:k%gw8.1934$PX2.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Chris Brizon
:-)
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Early Ehlinger" <ear...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zI4w8.47810$To6.14...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Chris Brizon
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Stephen Edwards" <anam...@extremezone.com> wrote in message
news:20020420...@mis.configured.host...
Tesselator
> Of course this was when Lw and the Toaster were new revolutionary
> ground and there were few other places to get your expertise from,
Nobody cared! It was just another tool to make video err, i mean money.
> but
> you may have been dealing with someone with a conscience.
No. Just "normal" business ethics.
> This commodity is required to be discarded when you put on a suit.
Doesn't apply. Highschool students ware Business Suits here.
> or could it be that a lack of creativity is the sign of a souless git
Huh? I take it you have a dim view of those who may lack creativity.
Why? It's not necessary in order to have and use integrity and ethics
in dealings with others.
> >Later I trained his studio members
> >how to use Amiga Toaster/LW3 for free and he gave me my first Digi-Beta
> >camcorder ~$50,000 Ofcourse this is probably pretty rare but it's how
> >I got my start. Also ofcourse I'm a good judge of character and I made
> >sure of who I was dealing with beforehand.
Proffesor Falken
<bri...@removemehades-studios.com> wrote:
>> His bosses response: "Why should I pay him, he enjoyed doing it." I called
>> him up and said: "Would you not pay the doctor who saved your fathers life
>> because the doctor actually ENJOYS open-heart-surgery?"
>
>I think I'll use that the next time someone tries the old "but he enjoys it"
>routine, nice one :-)
yes but thats the differrence between a job and a vocation doesn't
mean you shouldn't get paid for both.
Tesselator
> >> His bosses response: "Why should I pay him, he enjoyed doing it." I called
> >> him up and said: "Would you not pay the doctor who saved your fathers life
> >> because the doctor actually ENJOYS open-heart-surgery?"
> >
> >I think I'll use that the next time someone tries the old "but he enjoys it"
> >routine, nice one :-)
>
>
> yes but thats the differrence between a job and a vocation doesn't
> mean you shouldn't get paid for both.
And you're a professor where?
BTW, did you know you were spelling it wrong?
It's professor not proffesor.
:-/
Renderking Fisk
> > His bosses response: "Why should I pay him, he enjoyed doing it." I
called
> > him up and said: "Would you not pay the doctor who saved your fathers
life
> > because the doctor actually ENJOYS open-heart-surgery?"
>
> I think I'll use that the next time someone tries the old "but he enjoys
it"
> routine, nice one :-)
>
remember that run-in. I was doing this guy a FAVOR so he could win a
Multi-million dollar contract and that's the thanks I get... the only thing
I got out of it were some cool experience, a powerful lesson and an amusing
story.
Renderking Fisk
> I have one that says "Need money for booze, sex and drugs"
>
> hey, atleast I'm honest ;-D
>
> --
Renderking Fisk
>Now pick up that ebonics dictionary, and read,
biatch!
Which reminds me... ever wonder what it would have been like if it was Mace
Windo (Samuel L. Jackson) that was left behind on That swamp planet for
Luke Skywalker? And what if Mace was the same guy SLJ played in Pulp
Fiction...
"Windo? Yea... I know 'em. But lets go back to my crib and get us somethin'
to Eat!"
"There ain't no 'Try", biatch! Do or Ain't Do! But there ain't no "Try"
Mothah F@#$ah!"
"Listen, Holms... you ain't going No-Where till you be done with your Jedi
training! I be putting that fighter back in the swamp... so help me!"
"Mmmm... now that IS a tasty womp-rat!"
Renderking Fisk
> > The absolute worst? (Besides the expericne I posted about earlier
today)?
> > Geeks who are working on thier "Fan-Flims". Those idiots need to get a
> life.
>
> hehe, there not all bad, granted some are awful, but I've seen a few that
> look pretty good, the Episode II trick-trailer certainly got people
> wondering if it was the real thing when it was first uploaded
No, they arn't all bad. Most of them are just looking for an excuse to run
around the woods in Jedi Robes and bang glow sticks together.
Renderking Fisk
> > And kids... look out for a collection of all my greatest works! "Coffee
> > Educed Rants" by Renderking Fisk... coming ot a bargan bin near you!
>
> we're can we find cracks of that?
>
> :-P
You can go to groups.google.com and do a search of "Renderking Fisk" and
down load your own copy... cheap!
Renderking Fisk
You know, that's what I really like about this group...
everyone here has a well-calibrated sense of humor. :-)
I blame the long nights, the radiation from my dual monitors, and of
course... the coffee.
Proffesor Falken
<bri...@removemehades-studios.com> wrote:
>But paying less for less experience, they'll be asking more questions,
>doing less work (because their still learning the basics) pulling away
>others from their work and so on ultimately not being cost effective. Best
>advice is try get experience on anything you can, or make a conscious
>decision to avoid companies that use certain software, but for an artist
>that could be the difference between eating, and not
In the case of this guy he was already an exprienced 3D artist useig
Max and the job he is doing is contract work for an agency which in
the UK runs at around £20 - 30 ph without the risk of being in
business for your self. but generally you expect to earn double what
the full time employee in the next seat earns.
not the key for guys like this is vesatility and adaptability.
No 2 projects are ever the same
Proffesor Falken
<bri...@removemehades-studios.com> wrote:
>> After you pay your accountants and auditors even if you are a charity
>> don't you??
>
>And we -all- know how much those guys charge per hour.. we're in the wrong
>game aren't we :-)
An accountant "Someone who nows the cost of everything and the value
of nothing"
Chris Brizon
theme
*shudders*
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Renderking Fisk" <ecf...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Z5Jw8.173$Ii5....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Chris Brizon
> around the woods in Jedi Robes and bang glow sticks together.
>
THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!! :-P
I am actually tempted to have a go at a Matrix style, excuse to try out a
lot of effects (and to wear the trenchcoat again :-)
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Renderking Fisk" <ecf...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:49Jw8.187$Ii5....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Chris Brizon
--
Sincerely
Chris Brizon
Co-Founder: DarkICE fx
Managing Director: Hades Animation Studios
===================================================================
www.darkicefx.co.uk | www.lexxpark.co.uk | www.hades-studios.com
===================================================================
--
"Proffesor Falken" <prof....@claranet.com> wrote in message
news:uif7cucuc1m3akkgp...@4ax.com...
Renderking Fisk
>
> (Note to those who may be offended by my implication that Prince sucks,
I'm
> sorry to have offended you, but I stand by my opinion. Prince sucks.)
>
I'm offended, only to a small degree. The last GOOD album Prince did was
"Sign of the Times"... Since then... haven't bought once since.
Renderking Fisk
> Yup, you have to be -really- careful what you say in the NG's, just incase
> it causes difficulties down the line with future employers
>
> Something I didn't realise years ago when I was just starting out, and
still
> regret, so there's a warning to be careful, mud sticks :-)
>
I make a point to never say anything that's unfair or untrue. I also made a
point to leave out details like the true name of the persons and company
involved.
Simon Foster
Simon Foster
"Renderking Fisk" <ecf...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cxZw8.13$oS1....@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net...
Renderking Fisk
"Simon Foster" <si...@imageer.force9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Hv%w8.70211$51.509045@wards...
> The Batman album wasn't bad. It's just that Sign of the Times was the
best.
>
> Simon Foster
>
How could I forget that one?