3Dgate compares LW6.5 with Max 4 - check it out!
Erich
Steve Boyer
"Erich" <ek-no...@istar.ca> wrote in message
news:lA9T6.3245$rD3.6...@news.total.net...
Regards,
Erich
Maybe that's where the extra thousands of $$ cost for those apps compared to
LW comes in ... heh heh.
Steve Boyer.
jin choung
> Maybe that's where the extra thousands of $$ cost for those apps compared
to
> LW comes in ... heh heh.
yah, you'd almost think that! geez, what a crying shame that the newtek
programmers are busting their asses to put in cool new stuff, only to be
shot in the foot by not investing another (oh i don't know, how much does a
competent tech writer cost?) $$$ for better/more writers.
definitely definitely need better manuals. definitely.
jin
Dave Adams
"jin choung" <jin.c...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:ggjT6.6194$Q64.7...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
Maybe it would help if we all volunteered to pay $5k for
Lightwave?
Chuck Baker
the 6.0 manuals. Have you checked it out and if so do you find it to be
better? If we are on the right track we would like to hear it, and then
of course we'd also like specific comments on what further improvements
we could make for the next edition. Citing specific topics that you
feel need clarified or need more information and examples would be
useful.
I'm certain that we'll expand the docs team when we have the resources
to do so.
--
=========================================
Chuck Baker -- NewTek, Inc.
Director, Customer Support and Services
http://www.newtek.com/support/
=========================================
Erich
find the pdf's much more cumbersome to use. I would really appreciate it if
you would consider doing this. Heck, I would even be willing to pay for
them.
Thanks,
Erich
"Chuck Baker" <chuck...@newtek.com> wrote in message
news:3B1EA355...@newtek.com...
jin choung
sorry chuck,
i'm in the same boat as erich, i'm waiting for the paper bound manuals.
damn it, i'm sooooo willin' to pay for it. i've been squirrelin' away dough
and it's just burnin' a hole in my pocket.
(argh, and i just read on the nt forums that you guys will not be changing
the paper, binding and adding color and tabs... oh well. i guess that's for
7... )
i just can't sit in front of my screen and read pdfs. and the fact that the
pdf's don't have 'hyperlinked' indexes keep me from flipping rapidly around
and using it like a reference. actually, i understand that this is probably
a time and resources issue as well but i really do believe that the manuals
should make the most of whatever medium they are presented in. if it's in
pdf, all those nifty pdf features should be in there.
(p.s. also, the pdf's index has printed page number references [e.g. '2.1']
and not pdf page number references. again, this makes the process of
finding the information i need much more of a hassle than i'm willing to
deal with)
hee hee, ummm, this may actually be a situation where the FORM of the doc is
shootin' ya in the foot by keepin' us from accessing a manual that may have
substantially improved!
ARGH!
accessability accessability accessability. it's like the "location" of
manuals.
it really IS unfair for me to criticize the docs while not having read
through them and for that i apologize. but i do believe that my reasons for
not having done so are also legitimate. do you agree?
but i will endeavor to make an attempt at reading it and will pass along
whatever humble ( :) ) comments i come up with - i really am hoping they
will be overwhelmingly positive.
jin
jin choung
all i know is that the 5.6 docs were BEAUTIFULLY written. not only fast,
functional, lucid and helpful, but ENTERTAINING!
it was above and beyond. and the division into two books - one for an
introductory styled narrative and another that simply documented every
possible button and feature... damnit, that was a freakin' manual.
and i don't criticize newtek with malice. i understand this could be
growing pains (they are offering more products now than they used to i
believe and more near-simultaneous releases) and the budget probably was so
tight that they had to buckle tighter for things like the manual.
so yah, i get it. business logistics. but as a user and a fan, i'll still
be yammerin' on until the manuals are great.
jin
Brizon
actually got around to upgrading (finally convinced gullable rich friend he
was better off selling his on to me:) and I thought they were not all that
bad as manuals go, ok I admit, something like Expressions could and should
have a whole bunch of manuals all to themselves (though I suck at math and
still wouldn't understand them even if someone explained them to me in
atomic detail), but for an overall manual the pdf isn't too bad a read,
though personally I would prefer a html manual or one on paper aswell, but
this day and age hardly anything is on paper any more is it, kinda reminds
me of that scene in a certain episode of Futurama, where the library
contains just two CD roms and not a real book in sight :) They are worth a
read though Jin, for someone who's just coming into Lightwave they might be
a bit harsh, but for old timers most of it makes sense. Course, if someone
is willing to pay me (in cash not donuts:), I'll write a manual for LW no
problem *grins*
They could do with a bit of fleshing out, but I think isn't that what
Newtek is doing at the moment. I look at it this way, they could be a lot
worse than they are now. :)
--
-------
BriZon
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http://www.brizon3d.com
http://www.lexxpark.co.uk
http://www.the-necronomicon.com
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"jin choung" <jin.c...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:rFGT6.4388$an.8...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
Dave Adams
> and by that, you mean to say...?
>
They are obviously aware of people's complaints
about the materials. I think truthfully that Lightwave's
price should be drastically raised to cover development
costs of more features and more talented bodies to work
on every aspect of the program.
jin choung
as someone who is not a millionaire and who drives a hyundai, i could not
disagree with you more.
jin
Dave Adams
>
> as someone who is not a millionaire and who drives a hyundai, i could not
> disagree with you more.
>
> jin
I'm not a millionaire either, but if the software I needed to
work professionally cost $5000, then I would pay it.
As a professional it's a business expense.
If I was a hobbyist, I might feel that the price was already
too high.
I learned long ago in business doing video production that
if you have a product worth $5000, and for whatever
reason you sell it for $500, you end up with the worst sort
of cheapskate clientle, who expect superbowl graphics
at toilet bowl prices. They bitch and complain the loudest
and screw you at every opportunity. The $5000 client
understands the value of what the product is, and are
a dream to work with by comparison.
Before anyone goes ballistic at this analogy remember, by
being on the low end of pricing, Newtek has saddled itself with
many hobbyists, some of whom are the most vocal and obnoxious
critics there are in existence. Most LW users are willing to accept
certain tradeoffs at this price point, but plenty still don't get it.
In theory Newtek could save itself a lot of grief by
pricing the hobbyist out of it's sales scheme. I know Tim Jennison
casually and after talking to him a few times I realize why he doesn't
do this. He puts people and family ahead of business, and it's to his
credit and the wonderful people that work for him, that a tool at the
quality
of Lightwave is even available at this price, and by doing what he's
done he's had an influence on other software manufacturers that benefits
everyone in this business.
This is not directed at any individual, but some of these constantly
negative ultracritics should kiss his ass.
(:-D
jin choung
oh man,
i disagreed with almost every single statement in that last one.
as usual, will just agree to disagree.
:)
jin
Dave Adams
...and as usual, my stuff is clipped out and not
cohesively addressed. (:-D
But ageeing to disagree is a point of pride in our case.
jin choung
> ...and as usual, my stuff is clipped out and not
> cohesively addressed. (:-D
now now, i could have brought up the subject of capitalism and smart
business, the essential antagonism between producer and consumer, pricing
for what the market will bear, the naivete of thinking that a company will
charge 1 penny less than they think will net them the most overall cash and
their responsibility to themselves and their product to do so.
and also how i feel that the most interesting aspects of 3d are hobbyist,
art, craft and passion concerns and not essentially related to business
where the bottom line merely clouds the issue and taints the vision with its
all encompassing "production logistics".
and how i feel that people who do something even without compensation are
far more interesting, cogent and worthy of their tools than a great many
"industry professionals". (i'm just extending the proferred cliche and
extending it the other way [revealing MY personal bias]).
but what would have been the point of that?
we would have agreed to disagree anyhoo, right?
jin
Dave Adams
>
> > ...and as usual, my stuff is clipped out and not
> > cohesively addressed. (:-D
>
> now now, i could have brought up the subject of capitalism and smart
> business, the essential antagonism between producer and consumer, pricing
> for what the market will bear, the naivete of thinking that a company will
> charge 1 penny less than they think will net them the most overall cash
and
> their responsibility to themselves and their product to do so.
Sure, but the SGI/Maya model of marked overpricing to create a high
end reputation and lucrative market niche cannot be denied. It's the reason
producers all know that "Maya is the best" even though they don't know
it all in any sense beyond the elitist factor.
> and also how i feel that the most interesting aspects of 3d are hobbyist,
> art, craft and passion concerns and not essentially related to business
> where the bottom line merely clouds the issue and taints the vision with
its
> all encompassing "production logistics".
That's primarily irrelevant in an industry where your success as a company
depends on professionals embracing your product to the tune of 100 seat
licenses.
You are validating my statements about Tim's ...well, call it benevolence in
keeping
to the spirit of the Amiga user underdog mindset and struggling to keep his
product
affordable. With that though comes the inevitable compromises that often
earn Newtek
the wrath of users who in many ways bite the hand attempting to feed them
(sorry
for these metaphors...they're pretty sloppy).
>
> and how i feel that people who do something even without compensation are
> far more interesting, cogent and worthy of their tools than a great many
> "industry professionals". (i'm just extending the proferred cliche and
> extending it the other way [revealing MY personal bias]).
Well sure Jin, but pragmatically, "interesting" doesn't feed the bulldog
and commercial success means improved product, if not necessarily
personalized or perfect product because the production cycles demand
expedient delivery of upgrades.
>
> but what would have been the point of that?
I think it's "interesting" :-D and stimulating.
In a capitalist society, widgets will always generate
more capital than abstract art, professionals will always
drive the market in ways hobbyists can't and unfortunately
that puts the hobbyist at the mercy of the pro ecomonically.
But not artistically, or asthetically.
And there's always Hash Animation Master for the true individualists.
Bwaaaa ha ha ha!
>
> we would have agreed to disagree anyhoo, right?
>
Yes, and you are a good sport and decent fellow. I on the other
hand am a merciless, aggresive bastard who hates to lose and
will clutch my dongle until they pry it from my cold dead hands!!
And I still say Lightwave is a one of a kind, as is Tim J, Chuck and all the
crew
at Newtek. My hat's off to them.
Eric C.
> and how i feel that people who do something even without compensation are
> far more interesting, cogent and worthy of their tools than a great many
> "industry professionals". (i'm just extending the proferred cliche and
> extending it the other way [revealing MY personal bias]).
You feel that way. I find them a big PITA.
Brizon
They should put the price up for Lightwave, use the extra cash to put
together a much better package (ok its great as it is, but no harm improving
on it) target Lightwave at the companies only, try get back some ground
thats been lost to MAX and Maya etc.. Remake Inspire to be very similar to
Lightwave in every way, minus any extras, a cut down version, missing all
the plugins and extras a hobbist wouldn't normally need if there just
starting out, then give those Inspire users an option to purchase seperately
modules of plugins, effects etc.. as they like. So someone could come along,
buy Inspire, learn the basics of the program, decide to upgrade it, and
gradually over the course of time have upgraded and purchased all the
modules that make up Lightwave itself, so they'd then have the full package.
That way they would have had a choice, and it would have left Newtek to
concentrate on big business use, have two versions of Lightwave that are
basically the same, except one doesn't have the extras, is cheaper, and is
targeted at the guy at home. I explained it horribly, but the general idea
is a good one. And they would stand to make money regardless, no company
would buy the Inspire version and upgrade slowly, as inevitably they would
need all the tools anyway, so they'd just go for the expensive all in one
package, and no hobbist would go for the all in one package, cause it would
be too expensive, they'd get the cheaper one and upgrade if and when they
feel they need to. And if all the plugins are keyed to a dongle, what warez
group is going to bother cracking hundreds of plugins? Might crack the main
program (dont they always) but it would just be a basic Inspire version,
incompatible with all the highend extra's. I think it could work really
well, A hobbist would rarely need ALL the tools to do whatever there doing,
so could just buy the ones he/she does need, wouldn't be bogged down with
hundreds of tools he/she has no idea about, a company would have the full
suit of software, very expensive but easy for a company to purchase.
I think its a good idea, I wonder if Chuck is watching, might be neat to see
what he has to say about it :)
--
-------
BriZon
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Work: +44 (0) 771 9859450 7am - 5pm GMT
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"Eric C." <je...@oz.net> wrote in message
news:9fpums$gsp$0...@216.39.134.161...
jin choung
oki doke.
i'm not opposed to an interesting exchange either. and you've been nothing
but a sporting sparring partner and i hold no beef against ya! :)
but this subject is kinda touchy because my position on this argument (and
my view about life and society at large) would force me to be more cynical
toward newtek than i really do feel about them in particular in my heart.
but for the sake of consistency (prologing this by saying that i love newtek
to death), i'll make my argument more fully.
it's too late for newtek to raise it's price into the "ultra pro" range.
you say that they do not do so because of the kindness of their hearts. but
in reality, what do you think would happen if they really did price it into
the maya/xsi/or even houdini range tomorrow?
maya can be priced the way that it is because of its cad/cam/power animator
pedigree. it was ultra pro to begin with and nobody ever purchased a
licence of the alias products unless he was a buyer at a
scientific/architectural/movie company.
newtek's roots are with the bootstrapping bottom feeders. this is where my
heart is and bless them, this is how they started out too. empowering
prosumers to do things few would have imagined possible at the time. (it can
even be argued [though i won't push it] that lightwave is where it is today
by progressing lockstep with the prosumers who moved into industry spaces
bringing lightwave with them).
we do NOT have the pedigree to demand such a price.
and as with most things in life, pedigree is bullshit and doesn't
necessarily reflect quality. and yet, superficial and unwashed are the
masses - and especially the market.
to try to price "prosumer" people out would just alienate a large segment of
their historical and current market and would very unlikely buy them the
"prestige" that maya and softimage and houdini are attributed.
images have already been made. and unlike the story, if you're born a
pauper, people won't take you for a prince. even though you're better.
newtek prices lightwave for what they think the market can bear. not one
penny less. and not out of the goodness of their hearts.
jin
p.s. epilogue - i love the fact that newtek offers periodic upgrade programs
that enable people (especially students) to upgrade for great deals. most
recently, they have done this with an inspire to lightwave deal and the fact
that they are looking out for the little just really endears them and
engenders a fierce grassroots kind of loyalty in me.
Dave Adams
>
> oki doke.
>
> i'm not opposed to an interesting exchange either. and you've been
nothing
> but a sporting sparring partner and i hold no beef against ya! :)
> but this subject is kinda touchy because my position on this argument (and
> my view about life and society at large) would force me to be more cynical
> toward newtek than i really do feel about them in particular in my heart.
> but for the sake of consistency (prologing this by saying that i love
newtek
> to death), i'll make my argument more fully.
>
> it's too late for newtek to raise it's price into the "ultra pro" range.
> you say that they do not do so because of the kindness of their hearts.
but
> in reality, what do you think would happen if they really did price it
into
> the maya/xsi/or even houdini range tomorrow?
They could rename it "Wave Pro Suite Complete" and start by cranking it up
to
to $5k with a mandatory $1k a year "support contract" and bury the press
in hyperbole about the new tools that surpass "yesterday's high end clunkers
like Maya".
Hell...from what I've seen this is only partially a joke on my part, it
could work
if executed properly.
>
> maya can be priced the way that it is because of its cad/cam/power
animator
> pedigree. it was ultra pro to begin with and nobody ever purchased a
> licence of the alias products unless he was a buyer at a
> scientific/architectural/movie company.
Nevermind that Maya 1.0 was useless :->
>
> newtek's roots are with the bootstrapping bottom feeders. this is where
my
> heart is and bless them, this is how they started out too. empowering
> prosumers to do things few would have imagined possible at the time. (it
can
> even be argued [though i won't push it] that lightwave is where it is
today
> by progressing lockstep with the prosumers who moved into industry spaces
> bringing lightwave with them).
Perhaps, but they have always had the possibility of breaking away from
that market, and I see it as a philosophical choice they made not to. And
I believe they could have pulled it off.
>
> we do NOT have the pedigree to demand such a price.
>
I honestly believe that is a defeatist limitation that Newtek would never
ascribe to themselves, but some users might.
> and as with most things in life, pedigree is bullshit and doesn't
> necessarily reflect quality. and yet, superficial and unwashed are the
> masses - and especially the market.
>
> to try to price "prosumer" people out would just alienate a large segment
of
> their historical and current market and would very unlikely buy them the
> "prestige" that maya and softimage and houdini are attributed.
>
> images have already been made. and unlike the story, if you're born a
> pauper, people won't take you for a prince. even though you're better.
>
> newtek prices lightwave for what they think the market can bear. not one
> penny less. and not out of the goodness of their hearts.
I'm glad you came clean on that and let me know what you think.
I don't agree, but you've made a decent argument Jin.
>
> jin
>
> p.s. epilogue - i love the fact that newtek offers periodic upgrade
programs
> that enable people (especially students) to upgrade for great deals. most
> recently, they have done this with an inspire to lightwave deal and the
fact
> that they are looking out for the little just really endears them and
> engenders a fierce grassroots kind of loyalty in me.
It also seems to buy them a lot of unprofessional whiners...I don't include
you
among them Jin, but you know there is that aspect of their "following".
Thanks for spending the time to let me know why you disagree.
It's food for thought, definately.
Chuck Baker
when to expect them or what pricing would be, beyond the fact that plans
are for price to as reasonable as we can make it.
BadFish
wrote:
>Printed manuals will be produced. I haven't been informed yet as to
>when to expect them or what pricing would be, beyond the fact that plans
>are for price to as reasonable as we can make it.
>
>Erich wrote:
>>
>> Well Chuck, I would really appreciate having some paper bound manuals. I
>> find the pdf's much more cumbersome to use. I would really appreciate it if
>> you would consider doing this. Heck, I would even be willing to pay for
>> them.
Just my opinion, but I consider printed USER manuals a convenience and
printed REFERENCE manuals a waste of space. It's far, far, FAR more
convenient to search an online document for a topic than looking for
it using a printed TOC or index.
Over the years, I've had shelves and shelves of manuals I've never
even opened because the online documentation is more readily
available, searchable, and typically more current.
Many companies have given up shipping products with huge manuals in
favor of online-documentation. I felt cheated at first, but I don't
miss them at all now.
Again, just my opinion.
Jim
kge...@optonline.net
> at toilet bowl prices.....
Can I borrow that quote?
It's GREAT ;) !
Ken
Brizon
price of a fish supper :)
--
-------
BriZon
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<kge...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3B22737C...@optonline.net...
kge...@optonline.net
Make a "complete" package (current LW, current price)
and an "Unlimted" version (with hair plugin, relativity, CAMERA TRACKER,etc.)
extra $1K, perhaps?
Just thinnin out loud....
Ken