RPG experience systems
Stephen Tyndall
1a) Gain experience from battles. You gain levels at specific points and
your stats automatically increase.
1b) Variation on the above, where you get to distribute your stats when you
get a level.
2) You gain experience with individual skills instead of having character
levels.
Now, I have some questions for you:
1) Which of these do you prefer, and why? (if I missed a type, feel free to
say so)
2) What kind of experience system would you like to see in future RPGs?
//mike tyndall
"C-c-c-cold...need...fire..." - Tidus
Gandalf Parker
news:-tudnStO455...@comcast.com:
> 2) You gain experience with individual skills instead of having
> character levels.
I much prefer the skills method. My enjoyment of such games went up a
huge amount with the advent of such systems. RPG is Role Playing Games.
The idea should be to allow for as many roles as possible. Those who
enjoy the combat parts of the game are an obvious part of the gaming
populace, but not all of it.
MUDs came to that conclusion over a decade ago and created wider
definitions of player-types. I dont know why the graphic MMORPGs thinks
its new territory. There are people who prefer exploration, collecting,
research, socialising/diplomacy, support of other players, leading.
Any game which allows a player to develop characters along such lines
without being forced to take breaks from what they WANT to do in a game
in order to kill some things for a level, will do well. Any game which
actually allows such characters to be equal or even leading characters in
a game, without always playing catch-up to the hack/slash players in
their party, will do well.
IMHO
Gandalf Parker
Stephen Tyndall
news:sgvrg0pm1f7l6u36r...@4ax.com...
> the pen'n'paper RPG world;
>
> Gain XP from;
> making kills
> participating in combat
> conflict resolution successes (including skill checks)
> conflict resolution failures (learn by your mistakes)
> proceeding in the campaign/scenario (kind of like checkpoint XP)
> furthering the party goals (the helpful player bonus)
> playing in character (the good role player bonus)
> arbitrary assignment by the games master
> arbitrary assignment by player voting
> heroic/lucky feat bonus
A lot of CRPGs also give out experience when you complete a quest.
> XP can be distributed as a;
> general pool of XP with pre-set 'leveling' thresholds
> general pool of XP spent by player on anything at a set time
> general pool of XP spent by player on anything at any time
> general pool of XP spent by player on skills used at a set time
> general pool of XP spent by player on skills used at any time
> specific XP assigned to skills succeeded
> specific XP assigned to skills failed
> general pool of XP used as fate/luck points to influence events
That's certainly a far more complete list than mine. Still, most of it all
boils down to experience paying for levels, either like the first one I
listed (character levels) or the second one (skill levels). The last one,
though, is an interesting new (for me) approach that I never knew of.
Your list brought up a lot of ways of gaining and distributing experience
that I hadn't considered/didn't know about, so thanks for posting it.
> ...or there are even non-XP systems such as Call of Cthulhu where you
> tick a skill if you succeeded with it during that game session and at
> the end of the session roll dice over their current skill level they
> improve by a small number of points
Sorry for my ignorance, but could you explain this a bit more? I've never
played a pen-and-paper RPG, although games like Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance
and Star Wars: KOTOR use that type of game as a base.
What does it mean to "tick" a skill (other than meaning checking it off)?
Does that mean that your character becomes more proficient at it, and that,
at the end of a session, you roll dice to determine a skill level increase?
> My own preference, and the method I am using for both the pen'n'paper
> system I am collaborating on and my own CRPG, is to have both skill
> checks for used skills like the CoC method above and a general pool of
> XP gained by playing in character, furthering the campaign/scenario and
> arbitrary assignment which can be spent by the player at any time...no
> set levels.
So a mage that acts like a mage (casting magic instead of beating enemies
with his staff) will level up faster? That sounds interesting.
//mike tyndall
Stephen Tyndall
news:Xns953955ED39A...@208.201.224.154...
> "Stephen Tyndall" <swty...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:-tudnStO455...@comcast.com:
>
> > 2) You gain experience with individual skills instead of having
> > character levels.
>
> I much prefer the skills method. My enjoyment of such games went up a
> huge amount with the advent of such systems. RPG is Role Playing Games.
> The idea should be to allow for as many roles as possible. Those who
> enjoy the combat parts of the game are an obvious part of the gaming
> populace, but not all of it.
I was expecting a lot of people to prefer that one. I'm guessing you've
played Morrowind (even though I realize it's not the only game to have this
system)?
The only problem I see with this system is that once you get to a certain
level of combat ability, you're invincible. Morrowind was fun, but you
couldn't be killed by anything once you reached level 35 or so. Also, there
was no specialization; at the end, all 25-30 of your stats are at 100 and so
are your main stats (power, etc.).
> MUDs came to that conclusion over a decade ago and created wider
> definitions of player-types. I dont know why the graphic MMORPGs thinks
> its new territory. There are people who prefer exploration, collecting,
> research, socialising/diplomacy, support of other players, leading.
I'm really going to have to check out some MUDs one of these days. Everyone
talks about how much more complex and interesting they are compared to
MMORPGs because there's no need for graphics.
> Any game which allows a player to develop characters along such lines
> without being forced to take breaks from what they WANT to do in a game
> in order to kill some things for a level, will do well. Any game which
> actually allows such characters to be equal or even leading characters in
> a game, without always playing catch-up to the hack/slash players in
> their party, will do well.
>
> IMHO
This is something that really needs to be better in MMORPGs. If I play as a
healer, I don't want to be worthless in a fight for anything besides
healing. Hack-and-slash guys like warriors always get all the experience.
The healers just stand to the side and heal them, then maybe get beaten to
death.
I'd also like to "customize" my character class so that my character fights
the way that I want him to. If I've got a warrior, I'd be willing to
sacrifice some of his strength to give him some magic spells (and that
healer could use some attack power).
//mike tyndall
Stephen Tyndall
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:23:57 -0500, "Stephen Tyndall"
> <swty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> ...or there are even non-XP systems such as Call of Cthulhu where you
> >> tick a skill if you succeeded with it during that game session and at
> >> the end of the session roll dice over their current skill level they
> >> improve by a small number of points
> >
> >Sorry for my ignorance, but could you explain this a bit more? I've never
> >played a pen-and-paper RPG, although games like Baldur's Gate: Dark
Alliance
> >and Star Wars: KOTOR use that type of game as a base.
> >What does it mean to "tick" a skill (other than meaning checking it off)?
> >Does that mean that your character becomes more proficient at it, and
that,
> >at the end of a session, you roll dice to determine a skill level
increase?
>
> successfully you get to check that skill. At the end of the session you
> roll a dice against your current 'library search' skill level of 60% and
> if the result is higher you increase the skill by 1-3 points.
>
> This means that you improve skills that you regularly succeed in, but
> that the chance of improving decreases the more skilled you are.
>
> For certain types of skills or learning a new skill from scratch you
> need to find a tutor or just practice it (usually failing a lot)...
> >
> >> My own preference, and the method I am using for both the pen'n'paper
> >> system I am collaborating on and my own CRPG, is to have both skill
> >> checks for used skills like the CoC method above and a general pool of
> >> XP gained by playing in character, furthering the campaign/scenario and
> >> arbitrary assignment which can be spent by the player at any time...no
> >> set levels.
> >
> >So a mage that acts like a mage (casting magic instead of beating enemies
> >with his staff) will level up faster? That sounds interesting.
>
> skills, reward using defined character skills and traits (this could be
> with character class specific skill increases, more mana points for
> mages, etc), and reward succeeding at missions/quests with general
> points the player can apply to improving their character in other areas
> (learning new skills, improving stats, etc).
>
> You could equally apply 'alignment' bonuses, so a character that chose a
> good character type that rescues kittens from trees :)
Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to answer my questions :)
//mike tyndall
Konrad Gaertner
>
> As far as I can see, there are only two types of RPG experience systems:
>
> 1a) Gain experience from battles. You gain levels at specific points and
> your stats automatically increase.
What do you mean by "specific points"?
> 1b) Variation on the above, where you get to distribute your stats when you
> get a level.
> 2) You gain experience with individual skills instead of having character
> levels.
Can't think of a single game other than Nahlakh that had skill
improvement and no exp.
> Now, I have some questions for you:
> 1) Which of these do you prefer, and why? (if I missed a type, feel free to
> say so)
No experience points at all. No levels either.
> 2) What kind of experience system would you like to see in future RPGs?
Under what circumstances would the answer to 2 differ from 1?
--KG
Gandalf Parker
> "Gandalf Parker" <gan...@most.of.my.favorite.sites> wrote in message
> news:Xns953955ED39A...@208.201.224.154...
>>
>> I prefer skills system.
>>
> The only problem I see with this system is that once you get to a
> certain level of combat ability, you're invincible. Morrowind was
> fun, but you couldn't be killed by anything once you reached level 35
> or so. Also, there was no specialization; at the end, all 25-30 of
> your stats are at 100 and so are your main stats (power, etc.).
That is a problem. But it is one that can be fixed inside the game. Its
not a problem with the skills system itself.
Some of the latest ones Ive seen treat skills as something that can be
gained AND lost. You can forget skills that you dont use. And some set a
ceiling cap, you can choose to forget skills in order to make room to
learn a new one.
>> MUDs came to that conclusion over a decade ago and created wider
>> definitions of player-types. I dont know why the graphic MMORPGs
>> thinks its new territory. There are people who prefer exploration,
>> collecting, research, socialising/diplomacy, support of other
>> players, leading.
>
> I'm really going to have to check out some MUDs one of these days.
> Everyone talks about how much more complex and interesting they are
> compared to MMORPGs because there's no need for graphics.
They have alot of capability. But what I recommend them for is that they
are public code, anyone can run one, and they give alot of experience in
every aspect of game making. Plus, some have been around for so long that
there is alot of learned lessons that I see being ignored.
>> Any game which allows a player to develop characters along such lines
>> without being forced to take breaks from what they WANT to do in a
>> game in order to kill some things for a level, will do well. Any game
>> which actually allows such characters to be equal or even leading
>> characters in a game, without always playing catch-up to the
>> hack/slash players in their party, will do well.
>
> This is something that really needs to be better in MMORPGs. If I
> play as a healer, I don't want to be worthless in a fight for anything
> besides healing. Hack-and-slash guys like warriors always get all the
> experience. The healers just stand to the side and heal them, then
> maybe get beaten to death.
That should be an option. But I would rather see it AS an option. If
someone does want to invest in maximum healing ability knowing they will
need to be protected, then thats a choice.
Gandalf Parker
Stephen Tyndall
news:410ED75C...@worldnet.att.net...
> Stephen Tyndall wrote:
> >
> > As far as I can see, there are only two types of RPG experience systems:
> >
> > 1a) Gain experience from battles. You gain levels at specific points
and
> > your stats automatically increase.
>
> What do you mean by "specific points"?
Specific amounts of experience. You know, like "you have to gain 10000 exp.
before you reach level 15."
> > 1b) Variation on the above, where you get to distribute your stats when
you
> > get a level.
> > 2) You gain experience with individual skills instead of having
character
> > levels.
>
> Can't think of a single game other than Nahlakh that had skill
> improvement and no exp.
Morrowind is a popular one, though it technically doesn't avoid the
"character levels" thing. You build up your skills by using them. Once the
skill gains a certain amount of experience, it levels up.
Your character has a certain number of major/minor skills that add to
character experience when they level up. Gaining enough character
experience allows you to level up; this increases your health and other
stats based on your selections. The amount of each stat (Power, Stamina,
etc.) you can increase depends on what skills leveled up between character
levels.
> > Now, I have some questions for you:
> > 1) Which of these do you prefer, and why? (if I missed a type, feel free
to
> > say so)
>
> No experience points at all. No levels either.
>
> > 2) What kind of experience system would you like to see in future RPGs?
>
> Under what circumstances would the answer to 2 differ from 1?
Perhaps this should have been phrased, "If you don't like either of the
systems above, what kind of experience system would you like to see
implemented instead?"
//mike tyndall
Stephen Tyndall
> "Stephen Tyndall" <swty...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:y-CdnQfoDL-...@comcast.com:
>
> > "Gandalf Parker" <gan...@most.of.my.favorite.sites> wrote in message
> > news:Xns953955ED39A...@208.201.224.154...
> >>
> >> I prefer skills system.
> >>
> > The only problem I see with this system is that once you get to a
> > certain level of combat ability, you're invincible. Morrowind was
> > fun, but you couldn't be killed by anything once you reached level 35
> > or so. Also, there was no specialization; at the end, all 25-30 of
> > your stats are at 100 and so are your main stats (power, etc.).
>
> That is a problem. But it is one that can be fixed inside the game. Its
> not a problem with the skills system itself.
I should have been more clear here. Here's a rephrased version:
<rewrite>
If your character's skills eventually max out, and it's possible to max out
all of your skills, there will come a time when your character's skills are
so high that it's near-impossible to be taken down, unless something else is
done to prevent the player from becoming too strong.
</rewrite>
Maybe it would be good if there were some sort of system where you can
increase your character's maximum ability limit as you play (this is off the
top of my head, no specifics at the moment). Your abilities couldn't exceed
that limit, so you would be able to "forget" skills and adjust your
character's skill balance. For example, say my ability limit is 50. I've
got:
10 Sword skill, 10 Armor skill, 20 Attack Magic skill, and 10 Defense Magic
skill.
If I wanted, I could forget some skill and then go and increase some other
skill by using it:
17 Sword skill, 5 Dagger skill, 27 Attack Magic skill, 1 Defense Magic
skill.
By increasing my ability limit (through fighting, paying for training,
probably other stuff like equipment), I could increase the stats beyond 50
total. The stats would sort of balance themselves out so that your
character is basically as strong, just in a different way. Now that I think
about it, I kind of like this idea. What do you think?
> Some of the latest ones Ive seen treat skills as something that can be
> gained AND lost. You can forget skills that you dont use. And some set a
> ceiling cap, you can choose to forget skills in order to make room to
> learn a new one.
I saw an MMORPG recently that did this, but I don't remember which one.
> >> Any game which allows a player to develop characters along such lines
> >> without being forced to take breaks from what they WANT to do in a
> >> game in order to kill some things for a level, will do well. Any game
> >> which actually allows such characters to be equal or even leading
> >> characters in a game, without always playing catch-up to the
> >> hack/slash players in their party, will do well.
> >
> > This is something that really needs to be better in MMORPGs. If I
> > play as a healer, I don't want to be worthless in a fight for anything
> > besides healing. Hack-and-slash guys like warriors always get all the
> > experience. The healers just stand to the side and heal them, then
> > maybe get beaten to death.
>
> That should be an option. But I would rather see it AS an option. If
> someone does want to invest in maximum healing ability knowing they will
> need to be protected, then thats a choice.
Yes, always as an option. Players should never be forced to do things like
that.
//mike tyndall
Guillaume
A similar approach was made into a small french pen and paper RPG,
where skills had a base value depending on stats. You could increase
your stats by a small level, but if you became to high in some stats,
others would suffers. When you reached the Olympic level in one
physical stat, one "mind" stats had to go down, thus giving lower
abilities on some skills. You could not be at the same time a surhuman
martial-art artist and a electronic / computer genius.
The increase in stat was paid in XP, with incresing cost as you went
higher. Skill increase where paid in the same way.
just my two cents
Guillaume
Stephen Tyndall
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 18:17:26 -0500, "Stephen Tyndall"
> <swty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to answer my questions :)
> >
>
> As I'm designing a CRPG myself these are things I have already thought
about, but you may have a
> different perspective so discussion benefits us both, don't you agree ?
:))
Certainly. If you feel like it, I'd like to hear about your CRPG (unless
you'd rather not give away your design). Will it be available on your
website when it's done?
//mike tyndall
Raghar
> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 17:54:37 -0500, "Stephen Tyndall"
> <swty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Certainly. If you feel like it, I'd like to hear about your CRPG
>>(unless you'd rather not give away your design). Will it be available
>>on your website when it's done?
>>
> It's not so much a matter of giving away my design, but we're still
> trying to approve a final design document at the moment :)
>
Rule number 1. There is no such thing as a final design document.
> I'm spending a lot of my free time just proto-typing different
> elements to see how they could work while I wait for my partner to
> finalise the rules system.
Hehe dual work system. It migh turn funny.
--
Kizutsuite 'ta ano hi kara
Nebu Pookins
> "Gandalf Parker" <gan...@most.of.my.favorite.sites> wrote in message
> news:Xns9539AFDC7BC...@208.201.224.154...
>
>>"Stephen Tyndall" <swty...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>news:y-CdnQfoDL-...@comcast.com:
>>gained AND lost. You can forget skills that you dont use. And some set a
>>ceiling cap, you can choose to forget skills in order to make room to
>>learn a new one.
>
> I saw an MMORPG recently that did this, but I don't remember which one.
PlanetSide does something like this, but there's no story-level
explanation (e.g. "you forget your skill because you know too many other
skills") for it; it's purely a gameplay thing:
In PlanetSide, you get something like between 2 to 4 skill points
depending on your level, and every skill costs 1 skill point, of which
there are two or three dozen. So at any point in time, you can have at
most 4 of those skills. Except, you can choose to unlearn skills you've
learned to free up a point for another skill.
This is so that you can play as a medic one day, and a pilot the next,
and so on.
- Nebu
fernandoj...@gmail.com
is this an open group?
because i'm building a role playing game system
and i could use some advice...
originally it's meant to be free to share, play, and modify as needed, always that the modified versions include the reference to the original design made by me and the people who helped to complete the system.
Although my spelling and grammar may be quite the worst you've ever read, i'd like to say i'm not really an english speaker (i'm from argentina an learned this language by books, games, and other miscelaneous origins...).