multiple emulators?
Dan Meltz
but i was wondering if anybody had (oh so cleverly) run an emulator on an
emulator. i have a reason for asking, other than "uh huh it would be cool
to run executor on softwindows" i would like to run c-64 and atari800XL /
atari800XE games on my powermac. i figure running PC Xfer on SoftWindows
is maybe possible and probably an exercise in futility, but maybe somebody
out there has tried something like this sucessfully. grasping at straws, i
know, but it would be worth any flames i get to get the info.
thanks.
dan
--
----------=========== dj...@midway.uchicago.edu ===========----------
"Hmm... I'll need soem photographs of this chest wound. It wasn't a knife or
bullet that did this... In fact, I've got a nasty suspicion that whoever did
that did it with their fingers." --V FOR VENDETTA by Alan Moore
John M. Shea/Great Dane List
>this question has probably been asked (nothing new under the sun and all...)
>but i was wondering if anybody had (oh so cleverly) run an emulator on an
>emulator.
I have seen SoftPC running under Emplant (a Mac Emulator) on an amiga
and with good speed!
The only thing is, no cpu emulation is being done between the mac
emulation and the amiga, only the rest of the hardware is being
emulated.
Still, its pretty impressive. I don't have any specific numbers,
though.
John
--
John M. Shea
Electrical and Computer Engineering,
Clemson University
Maxwell Daymon
: this question has probably been asked (nothing new under the sun and all...)
: but i was wondering if anybody had (oh so cleverly) run an emulator on an
: emulator. i have a reason for asking, other than "uh huh it would be cool
: to run executor on softwindows" i would like to run c-64 and atari800XL /
: atari800XE games on my powermac. i figure running PC Xfer on SoftWindows
: is maybe possible and probably an exercise in futility, but maybe somebody
: out there has tried something like this sucessfully. grasping at straws, i
: know, but it would be worth any flames i get to get the info.
I ran a C64 emulator on my Mac emulator. Wasn't very exciting.
Amiga -> Mac -> C64
My friend said he was able to run SoftPC:
Amiga -> Mac -> SoftPC
I also ran two Apple 2 emulators at once on my Amiga. Even though no
emulator was running "on" an emulator, it was impressive to run both
concurrently. (They *almost* slowed down to the speed of a real Apple 2!)
--
//
// Maxwell Daymon
\\ // mda...@rmii.com
\X/
Erkki Ruohtula
>this question has probably been asked (nothing new under the sun and all...)
>but i was wondering if anybody had (oh so cleverly) run an emulator on an
>emulator. i have a reason for asking, other than "uh huh it would be cool
If the emulator on top of which the second emulator is running is
good enough, no problem. Except that the cumulative degradation in
speed usually makes this kind of an arrangement useless, except as a
silly joke.
Once tried running Z80MU (a public-domain CP/M-emulator for PC:s) on
a friend's SUN Sparcstation within a MS-DOS emulator. It worked fine.
Unfortunately I do not remember what exactly was the reported simulated
Z80 CPU megaherz number, but I seem to recall it was only slightly faster
than what one would get when running Z80MU on a PC/XT (i.e. too slow
for most purposes).
Now, if I had a CP/M-based SPARC emulator to run on top of
all this, and then ran the MS-DOS emulator in it, and...
--
Erkki Ruohtula / Nokia Telecommunications Oy
e...@tele.nokia.fi / P.O. Box 33 SF-02601 Espoo, Finland
(My private opinions, of course)
Timothy Roddis
>Dan Meltz (dj...@kimbark.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: this question has probably been asked (nothing new under the sun and all...)
>: but i was wondering if anybody had (oh so cleverly) run an emulator on an
>: emulator. i have a reason for asking, other than "uh huh it would be cool
>: to run executor on softwindows" i would like to run c-64 and atari800XL /
>: atari800XE games on my powermac. i figure running PC Xfer on SoftWindows
>: is maybe possible and probably an exercise in futility, but maybe somebody
>: out there has tried something like this sucessfully. grasping at straws, i
>: know, but it would be worth any flames i get to get the info.
>
>I ran a C64 emulator on my Mac emulator. Wasn't very exciting.
>
I've run a Dragon 32 (~= Tandy CoCo) emulator under a PC emulator on an
Acorn A5000. It was just about faster than going downstairs, getting the
Dragon out of the carrying case, plugging it in, connecting it to the TV
etc.
. /---------------------------------------------------------------\
. o . | Timothy Roddis [Tim the Tiger] tro...@acorn.co.uk |
o _ o +---------------------------------------------------------------+
( ) | What I say and what Acorn thinks may be two distinct objects. |
\---------------------------------------------------------------/
Hans Guijt
>emulator. i have a reason for asking, other than "uh huh it would be cool
I ran a PC spectrum emulator on a PC emulator on an amiga. Miner Willy (from
Manic Miner) crawled across the screen from left to right in about 5
minutes, before I got bored...
The following should be possible:
Amiga -> Mac -> Atari -> PC -> MSX -> ZX-81
(or Mac/Atari the other way round)
I can't think of a longer chain...
Hans
John Morley
Dan Meltz <dj...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>this question has probably been asked (nothing new under the sun and all...)
>but i was wondering if anybody had (oh so cleverly) run an emulator on an
>emulator. i have a reason for asking, other than "uh huh it would be cool
>to run executor on softwindows" i would like to run c-64 and atari800XL /
>atari800XE games on my powermac. i figure running PC Xfer on SoftWindows
>is maybe possible and probably an exercise in futility, but maybe somebody
>out there has tried something like this sucessfully. grasping at straws, i
>know, but it would be worth any flames i get to get the info.
There is no reason why you absolutely can't stack one emulation on top of
another, but there are a couple of practical reasons why this may not be
such a good idea.
1) Even the most efficient emulations operate at 10%-50% of the "raw"
speed of the hosting hard CPU. When you stack one emulation on top of another
you will see performance in the range of 1%-25% of the hosting CPU, which
unles you are running on a 5000Mhz SuperRISC processor will probably be
less than satisfying.
2) Emulators do not have a reputation for being "well-behaved" programs,
so unless the first emulator is capable of supporting all manner of
skanky code, the second emulator will probably blow its mind.
To make matters worse, the example you are proposing would actually involve
triple emulation. Even though SoftWindows for the PowerMac is a "native"
program, there is still a significant amount of 68K emulation going on in
the PowerMac environment today. So your Atari game would be emulated by an
Atari emulator which would be emulated by SoftWindows which would be
frequently calling Mac Toolbox code which would be emulated by the PowerMac
68K emulator. Gives me a headache just thinking about it :-}
When I was bringing up the MAE (Macintosh Application Environment) 68K
emulator on Sun Sparcstations, I tried running the old 68K version of SoftPC
on it, and low and behold it worked! On a Sparcstation-10 it ran about like
an old PC-XT class machine, but I thought that was pretty good considering
what was going on.
- John Morley
MAE Emulator God
Peter Koch - DA Gesmann
mor...@apple.com (John Morley) writes:
>There is no reason why you absolutely can't stack one emulation on top of
>another, but there are a couple of practical reasons why this may not be
>such a good idea.
>
>1) Even the most efficient emulations operate at 10%-50% of the "raw"
>speed of the hosting hard CPU. When you stack one emulation on top of another
>you will see performance in the range of 1%-25% of the hosting CPU, which
>unles you are running on a 5000Mhz SuperRISC processor will probably be
>less than satisfying.
Um, not exactly. Have you ever seen the Mac emulator "Aladin" for
the Atari ST? It ran about 20% *FASTER* than a comaparble Mac!
The reason is simple: Since the Mac and the Atari ST both have
the same CPU, there was no need to emulatoe the CPU itself,
but only the ROM and the I/O.
>2) Emulators do not have a reputation for being "well-behaved" programs,
>so unless the first emulator is capable of supporting all manner of
>skanky code, the second emulator will probably blow its mind.
Yes, i remeber the *huge* list of programs, which needed to be
patched to run on Aladin :-(
>To make matters worse, the example you are proposing would actually involve
>triple emulation. Even though SoftWindows for the PowerMac is a "native"
>program, there is still a significant amount of 68K emulation going on in
>the PowerMac environment today. So your Atari game would be emulated by an
>Atari emulator which would be emulated by SoftWindows which would be
>frequently calling Mac Toolbox code which would be emulated by the PowerMac
>68K emulator. Gives me a headache just thinking about it :-}
>
>When I was bringing up the MAE (Macintosh Application Environment) 68K
>emulator on Sun Sparcstations, I tried running the old 68K version of SoftPC
>on it, and low and behold it worked! On a Sparcstation-10 it ran about like
>an old PC-XT class machine, but I thought that was pretty good considering
>what was going on.
Damn! Why has Sun stopped support for Sun3's. I believe, that
MAE on a Sun3 would be able to beat MAE on Sparc! And i'm sure,
it would run less flaky!
Peter
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Koch, Universitaet Kaiserslautern (AG Haerder, Raum 36/318)
Postfach 3049, 67653 Kaiserslautern (Germany)
------------------ ko...@informatik.uni-kl.de ------------------
carlo santagostino
>The following should be possible:
>Amiga -> Mac -> Atari -> PC -> MSX -> ZX-81
>(or Mac/Atari the other way round)
>I can't think of a longer chain...
>Hans
Amiga -> Atari -> Mac -> PC -> MSX -> Spectrum -> ZX-81
or
Amiga -> Atari -> Mac -> PC -> C64 -> Spectrum -> ZX-81
or recursive emulations like
Amiga -> Mac -> PC -> Mac -> PC ..
or
Amiga -> Atari -> PC -> Atari -> PC ..
I've done succesfully:
Amiga -> Mac -> PC -> Spectrum
!!!! & I've loaded Manic Miner !!!!
---
Santagostino Carlo - sant...@dsi.unimi.it
Q: How many Intel CPUs does it take to do a logical RightShift ???
A: 1 to hold the bits and 32 to hold the register
from RAGE demo Maximum Overdrive 2
Hans Guijt
>Amiga -> Atari -> Mac -> PC -> MSX -> Spectrum -> ZX-81
Isn't the MSX spectrum emulator for basic programs only?
>Amiga -> Atari -> Mac -> PC -> C64 -> Spectrum -> ZX-81
C64 emulating spectrum? This is the first time I ever heard of that one...
Does it really exist?
>or recursive emulations like
>
>Amiga -> Mac -> PC -> Mac -> PC ..
;-)
>Amiga -> Mac -> PC -> Spectrum
>
>!!!! & I've loaded Manic Miner !!!!
How long to walk just to the right side of the screen?
Hans
Zargwog...
I regularly use Z80 (Spectrum emu) running on SoftPC running on my Sparc. Games are still playable....Manic miner especially. I'd like to try the ZX81 emulator for the
spectrum too, but of course this is only a redirection program not an emulator.
Oh, and on the Genesis topic, Will you guys shut up. This thread has gone from being interesting to an introverted flame war. Frankly, we don't give a damn who has the
biggest computer:) The subject of can we/can't we emulator any given machine is quite
simple. ANY hardware can be emulated.....but getting the timing and speed reasonable
is much more tricky.
Personnally I think the new colour Sparcs we have around here would be great if they
fitted a cartridge slot in the side:-)
Zargwog...
My company probably doesn't agree with me one any subject, so don't bother them.
Brian Gaff
--
bri...@bgserv.demon.co.uk - Email for Speccy membranes
Brian Gaff is B G Services - UK support for 'Z80'
The Spectrum Emulator
Sam Laur
>>Amiga -> Atari -> Mac -> PC -> C64 -> Spectrum -> ZX-81
>
>Does it really exist?
Yes, although it works only on BASIC of course... no machine language!
Anyway it is quite usable, and emulates a microdrive using a 1541...
--
/* Sam Laur sl...@utu.fi */
/* Carpe noctem! Carpe tenebras! */
John Morley
Peter Koch - DA Gesmann <ko...@rhein.informatik.uni-kl.de> wrote:
>Hi!
>
>mor...@apple.com (John Morley) writes:
>>There is no reason why you absolutely can't stack one emulation on top of
>>another, but there are a couple of practical reasons why this may not be
>>such a good idea.
>>
>>1) Even the most efficient emulations operate at 10%-50% of the "raw"
>>speed of the hosting hard CPU. When you stack one emulation on top of another
>>you will see performance in the range of 1%-25% of the hosting CPU, which
>>unles you are running on a 5000Mhz SuperRISC processor will probably be
>>less than satisfying.
>
>Um, not exactly. Have you ever seen the Mac emulator "Aladin" for
>the Atari ST? It ran about 20% *FASTER* than a comaparble Mac!
>The reason is simple: Since the Mac and the Atari ST both have
>the same CPU, there was no need to emulatoe the CPU itself,
>but only the ROM and the I/O.
Excuse me, I was referring to emulations that involve a "synthetic CPU".
What you are referring to is a port of one runtime environment on top of
a foreign one that shares a common underlying CPU platform. As for running
20% faster, that is possible but not likely. More probable is a difference
that can be attributed to fundamental architectural aspects of the different
hardware platforms (i.e. clock speed, memory subsystem, I/O subsystem, etc.).
>
>>When I was bringing up the MAE (Macintosh Application Environment) 68K
>>emulator on Sun Sparcstations, I tried running the old 68K version of SoftPC
>>on it, and low and behold it worked! On a Sparcstation-10 it ran about like
>>an old PC-XT class machine, but I thought that was pretty good considering
>>what was going on.
>
>Damn! Why has Sun stopped support for Sun3's. I believe, that
>MAE on a Sun3 would be able to beat MAE on Sparc! And i'm sure,
>it would run less flaky!
Not likely. The Sun3 was a 68020 box running at around 20Mhz (not sure of
all the clock rates available at the time). MAE on the least powerful Sparc
made gets about that level of raw emulator performance, and better overall
performance due to the native components of MAE. On high end Sparc gear
it gets about 33Mhz 68030 performance, and with work in progress for
release 2.0 is pushing us into performance that compares favorably with the
best 68040 Macs today.
As for flakiness, I'm obviously biased, but the software CPU implementation
has been validated so extensively that failures due to the CPU emulation
have not been discovered since the release of MAE 1.0. Certainly there are
issues around the virtualization of the Macintosh environment on top of a
hosting UNIX system that we are working on improving, but those issues would
also be there if we put MAE on a Sun3 running SunOS.
- John
Hans Guijt
>>C64 emulating spectrum? This is the first time I ever heard of that one...
>>Does it really exist?
>
>Yes, although it works only on BASIC of course... no machine language!
>Anyway it is quite usable, and emulates a microdrive using a 1541...
Hmm. Feels like cheating to me...
;-)
Hans
Robert A. Colbert
: Excuse me, I was referring to emulations that involve a "synthetic CPU".
: What you are referring to is a port of one runtime environment on top of
: a foreign one that shares a common underlying CPU platform. As for running
: 20% faster, that is possible but not likely. More probable is a difference
: that can be attributed to fundamental architectural aspects of the different
: hardware platforms (i.e. clock speed, memory subsystem, I/O subsystem, etc.).
I missed the beginning of the thread, but I just wanted to say that I got
a kick out of running II in a Mac on my A-Max emulator for the Amiga. I
think this is more on the line of what you are talking about: an emulation
running in an emulation.
Bob
--
Microsoft should change their name to Megaresourcesuckingsoft