In article <x51y9qy1b0....@tupik.goethe.zz>,
David Kastrup  <David.Kast...@t-online.de> wrote:

Lots of people do, and start ranting wars over the issue (not that you
have).  IMHO, both emacs and vim (and elvis/vile/etc)  are powerful
editors, and for most folks if one knows one of these editors well its
probably not worthwhile to try to become an expert in the other.  On
the other hand, if all one knows is pico or notepad, its time to upgrade
one's mental facilities by learning a powerful editor.

You may not be aware of the plugins and whatnot that Vim now sports.
I can't say what elvis/nvi/vile etc have, nor am I going to claim that
vim's plugins are better or worse than what emacs has.  I intend this to
be a FYI:

Vim does this (<explorer.vim>) as part of its standard plugins.

Vim uses "quickfix": :cf :cn :cp

There's a lot of menu plugins that Vim has to make working with rcs and
cvs easier.

and vim also has language-sensitive indenting (and for that matter
language sensitive plugin loading)

Vim too has an integrated help system, with hypertext linkages to
other help pages and topics.

There are a number of vim-based email readers, but not news AFAIK.  I
don't use them; I use mutt/elm/trn.

Vim does this too, although being an US-American who doesn't speak
Japanese, Chinese, Farsi, etc, I've never had call to use these
character sets.  I've seen some screenshots, though.

Vim has a emacs emulation plugin (although I confess that I've never
used it).

Regards,
C Campbell
--
        Charles E Campbell, Jr, PhD            _   __   __
        Goddard Space Flight Center           / /_/\_\_/ /
        c...@NgrOyphSon.gPsfAc.nMasa.gov      /_/  \/_//_/
  PGP public key: http://www.erols.com/astronaut/pgp.html

In article <ai3i36$29...@e3k.asi.ansaldo.it>, po...@pesto.it says...

Yep, Emacs is pretty slow at this.  Same goes for reindenting the whole
file ('=' command in Vim, I forgot what it was in emacs).

c...@gryphon.uucp (Charles E. Campbell) writes:

[Vim includes everything and the kitchen sink]

I am curious. Could you please tell me where I can read more about
these? They are written in Vim's extension language solely? I am
sometimes at war with a good friend of mine who uses Vim and I'd like
to talk with him about "Unix philosophy" ... :-)

Oops, does that mean that Vim is truly extensible?

Hmm. An Emacs with Vi's command set (in viper-mode) is still an
Emacs ... and there are Emacsen that don't use Lisp as an extension
language ... Does that mean that Vim is an Emacs? So Vim is on-topic
in comp.emacs? 8-) Waaahhh ....!

    -- Oliver

"Who fights to long against Emacs becomes himself an Emacs."
                        -- August Strindberg
--
12 Thermidor an 210 de la Révolution
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité!

Kai.Grossjoh...@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai  =?iso-8859-15?q?Gro=DFjohann?=) writes:

Well, tramp does _a_lot_of_stuff_ particular for it's first connection
to a particular machine.  I guess it has to be that complicated, as
tramp doesn't really know how sanely the other machine will be
configured.  I would also guess that it should be (and probably is)
possible to preconfigure lots of defaults (on a per-machine basis) to
speed things up.

But it still has to transport the file to your local machine, so no, I
don't think that substantial speedups are possible.  But it's still a
lot more convenient than starting a new emacs (ok, for small jobs I
sometimes do emacs -nw -q, and for really small ones I might even use
vi)...

Sven
--
 _  __                     The Cognitive Systems Group
| |/ /___  __ _ ___                                       University of Hamburg
| ' </ _ \/ _` (_-<  phone:    +49 (0)40 42883-2576      Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30
|_|\_\___/\__, /__/  fax  :    +49 (0)40 42883-2572             D-22527 Hamburg
          |___/ http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~utcke/home.html

Can Vim do Microsoft extensions to CUA (C-x, C-c, C-v)?
How about selecting text with shift arrow?

If Vim can program keybindings, then one should be able to always stay
in input mode, and simply issue something like a macro, to enter edit
mode, do the edit, and return to input mode.
In effect, it will look like Vim is in just one mode.

This would kill the learning curve, and attract newbies.

Can macro writing users dynamically generate/alter menus at run-time?
Statically?

AFAIK, you can do pretty much anything you want. Binding while in
insertmode:

map! <S-Down> ^Ov<Down>

(I had to fudge the ^O --ie ^V^O to get the correct char).

--
Hal Burgiss

Yes, connection setup takes long.  I recently made it even longer by
auto-detecting the inline encoding commands.  :-(

There is no mechanism for remembering the results for a given
connection.

Somebody suggested to write a shell script that does all the
autodetecting and prints the results in a way easily parsed by
Emacs.  This would make it a lot faster I think.  But I was lazy and
did it the slow way -- Tramp sends a lot of commands to the remote
host, each command for autodetecting one thing.

kai
--
A large number of young women don't trust men with beards.  (BFBS Radio)

Both possible (and actually the default in MS-Windows installations).

This can be done as well (such a version of Vim is called eVim).

Yes.

Uh?

--
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Axiom I of the Giuseppe Bilotta
theory of IT:
Anything is better than MS

wang yin <wangyin...@hotmail.com> wrote on Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:11:02 +0800:

They are both tremendous programs.  I use vim for Usenet/Email, and Emacs
for programming, though either is good for each.

In Emacs, you'll find yourself having to type lots of "chorded" commands,
i.e. holding down "modifier" keys (control, meta, or both) whilst typing
another key.  An example is M-> (Hold down the shift and meta (usually
<alt>) keys whilst typing the >) which goes to the end of the buffer.
Some people find this chording cumbersome and unwieldy.

In vim, most commands are given by a single key (i.e. G to go to the end
of the buffer).  To insert text, you have to change to "insert mode"
(e.g., by typing the command i), then type <esc> to get back to command
mode.  Some people (including me) get tied up in knots through being
unable to keep track of which mode they're in.

Decide which of these paradigms suits you best and choose your editor
accordingly.  They're both tremendous programs.

--
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: a...@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").

In article <ahsd37$k7...@cscnews.csc.calpoly.edu>,
Azeem Shahjahan Jiva <aj...@kdat.csc.calpoly.edu> wrote:

Ewww!

:-)

-- David
(remove "xxx" to reply)

Am Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:23:46 +0200,schrieb Oliver Scholz :

Im prepared emacsian!

Have a look at http://vim.sourceforge.net/

Anyway, I prefer using vim in slrn/mutt.

:-)

tschazu
erkan [thinking to write a wikiplugin -- next year]

--
ueber den grenzen muss die freiheit wohl wolkenlos sein

I am an avid Emacs user for all my programming needs. I like emacs for
its
extensibility proived by elisp. The support provided by different
'progmodes'
is pretty cool. You can set up your own editing window size, indent
style,
etc. Also if you need a particular editing feature and it is not
available
with emacs, it is a matter of a few minutes(or hours or days depending
on
how good a lisp hacker you are) to write a few lisp code and get the
feature
you want.

 I use emacs for Email/Web(W3). VIM or its predecessor vi is
especially useful for invoking short editing sessions like chaging a
few lines of code here and there or editing your shell startup
scripts, because the program loads faster
than Emacs. A flipside of VIM I feel, is the arcane 'vimscript' syntax
which I tried to learn but had to give up.

 Emacs also scales pretty well and is supported on a multitude of
platforms.

 If you want a basic editor which supports a variety of program modes
and
fast syntax highlighting without "fries" VIM is for you. If on the
other hand
you are looking for a full-featured editing environment then Emacs is
your pal.

Regards

Anand

[...]

Using and promoting viper is not heretic. When pious Emacs-Users walk
from house to house, seeking Vi-Users to talk to them about the One
True Editor, they have an additional argument to convince them and to
save their souls.

- "Vi's keybindings are superior."

- "Sure they are, that's why they are included in Emacs."

Actually this practice is quite common in many religious
communities. The Christians -- for example -- used it, when they did
missionary work in northern Europe.

- "I like to celebrate winter solstice each year. We have a beautiful
  fir tree and my whole family enjoys it. So I stay with Wotan and the
  gods of my fathers."

- "Did you try `M-x christmas-mode RET'?"

See?

    -- Oliver

"Would you care to take a free Emacs Tutorial?"

--
12 Thermidor an 210 de la Révolution
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité!

The original post was a troll.  But you bring up an interesting point.

Please show via a simple example an instance where Vim indents more accurately
than Emacs.  I'm interested.

I've got Vim 6 up on my terminal (let's recall that you "forgot" how to indent
in emacs), and it ain't indenting worth a lick.

--
Le

In article <mj329.246740$WJf1.220...@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,

Le Wang  <lewang(at@)yahoo.com> responded with:

I agree -- emacs vs vi-clone wars are

    (a) dumb
    (b) boring
    (c) pointless

I tell my CS students that if they know emacs, fine, if they know a
vi-clone, fine.  If they only know pico or notepad, learn a real
editor.  One can travel on a tricycle, 'tis true, but its embarrassing
for automotive engineers not to know anything else.

I have no idea whether emacs or vim is more "accurate" at indenting.
Undoubtedly emacs is configurable, anyway (vim is).

You do have

    set nocp
    filetype indent on

in your <.vimrc>?  Another common item..

    filetype plugin on

Regards,
C Campbell
--
        Charles E Campbell, Jr, PhD            _   __   __
        Goddard Space Flight Center           / /_/\_\_/ /
        c...@NgrOyphSon.gPsfAc.nMasa.gov      /_/  \/_//_/
  PGP public key: http://www.erols.com/astronaut/pgp.html

When I still used Emacs (and Emacs-type of editors) exclusively, I had
GNU Emacs running as gnuserv on a certain virtual console all the
time; I never shut it down. It ran on luser's permissions, so editing
system files was impossible with it without tweaking, so I used JED
for files that needed root permissions.

Nowadays, I'm only using Vim and no other editor whatsoever. I'm glad,
too. Vim is so interesting and fascinating, as it's completely new to
me after some years with Emacs-type of editors (mostly JED and Joe in
Emacs-mode (jmacs)) and it's fun to learn new things. And I'm even
beginning to like Vi-type of keybindings lot more than Emacses. So,
all my text-editing I do with Vim and try to learn new things about it
while I'm at it. It's plain fun! :-)

Uhh, not the kind of message with interesting information in it. I
just felt a bit babbly. It's just quite nice to write news/mails with
Vim because I think I've finally started to adapt to Vim's logic and
it's way to do things. Thus, I tend to write rants quite a lot. *g*

--
Jussi Ekholm  --  ekh...@goa-head.org  --  http://erppimaa.ihku.org/

nice.

One more thing:
Can I get vim to start up in input mode?

I'm thinking that, with CUA style keybindings for all the essentials,
that I could recommend vim to MS Windows users, who are first
discovering Linux (or clone).
This would essentially emulate Notepad, yet provide a real editor to
grow with.

If there is an existing .vimrc to do all this, and runs on (almost) all
platforms that Vim runs on, please point me to it.

Ingalls graced us by uttering:

[ snip ]

In Vim 6.0 and up, you can use evim.  It's not exactly a Notepad clone,
but this is generally considered a Good Thing (TM).  =)

:help evim-keys

HTH
Tim Hammerquist
--
If there's anything more important than my
ego around, I want it caught and shot now.
    -- Zaphod Beeblebrox, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

Johan Kullstam <kullstj...@attbi.com> wrote on Sat, 27 Jul 2002 14:20:12 GMT:

For what it's worth, it's the *only* way to write computer programs, too.
The only language which is really worth considering for serious
programming is Forth.  Lisp will sort of do at a pinch, if you haven't
got Forth available, but what sort of brain wants first to call a
function, and only then evaluate the arguments to send into that call?
As for languages like C, Perl and Java.  Yuck!  As you say, infix sucks
in *so* many ways.

--
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: a...@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").

At 2002-07-29T11:03:31Z, Sven Utcke <utcke+n...@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> writes:

It really depends on what's being edited.  If it's something with a trivial
syntax (aliases, virtusertable), Tramp is terrific.  If it's something where
I'm constantly switching between futzing around with a config file and
restarting a service, then vi is king.
--
Kirk Strauser
The Strauser Group - http://www.strausergroup.com/

Why?  Using gnuclient and tramp you do all this from an X-Terminal far
away anyway, and simply use two windows side by side (or whatever you
prefer).

Sven
--
 _  __                     The Cognitive Systems Group
| |/ /___  __ _ ___                                       University of Hamburg
| ' </ _ \/ _` (_-<  phone:    +49 (0)40 42883-2576      Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30
|_|\_\___/\__, /__/  fax  :    +49 (0)40 42883-2572             D-22527 Hamburg
          |___/ http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~utcke/home.html

Funny, I have to type two keys (SHIFT + G) to go to the end of the
buffer in vi.  Maybe my copy of vi is broken... I mean, even more than
it is supposed to.

In any case, these days I use CTRL + End to go to the end of the
buffer in all applications.  Except vi, where CTRL + End will beep,
insert an empty line and switch to insert mode.

FUT: alt.religion.emacs

At 2002-08-05T11:59:27Z, Sven Utcke <utcke+n...@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> writes:

Mainly because

  $ vi foo.conf

is easier than

  C-c C-f /[multi/ssh:me@remotehost/su:root@localhost]/path/to/foo.conf

The above is assuming that I'm already in Emacs and using M-x term to do
stuff, and therefore don't have to go to the workspace running Emacs before
I can start typing.  Also, I always use Tramp's multi-hop syntax, because if
I don't, I can absolutely guarantee that I'll need it within a few minutes
of opening a single-hop path.
--
Kirk Strauser
The Strauser Group - http://www.strausergroup.com/

I've found it quite convenient to make abbrevs for host parts like the
above.  

--
Booting... /vmemacs.el