Is Computer Science a Liberal Art?
rieksts%acad.c...@ods.artnet.schule.de
Realname: Oskars Rieksts
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 14:47:00 -0400 (EDT)
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Although the Department of Mathematics and Computer Science is within
the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences on our campus, for over a decade
our discipline has been considered a "professional program" as is also
Nursing and Criminal Justice. Therefore courses offered by our program
cannot be used to meet the liberal arts requirement. I would be interested
in hearing from others to see whether this is an issue on other campuses
and, if so, how it was resolved.
Given that Computing Science has roots in mathematics, logic and
philosophy that go back well over a hundred years and that it has been
right in the thick of intellectual ferment for almost 50 years, it is hard
for me to imagine any good reason why it would NOT be considered a liberal
art. We are preparing to challenge the status quo on this and, hopefully,
restore Computer Science to its rightful place. Any help on this would
be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
Oskars Rieksts
rie...@acad.csv.kutztown.edu
--44205-875732390-749155640:#15659--
Oskars Rieksts
tony%nexu...@ods.artnet.schule.de
Realname: Anthony Wallis
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 22:07:23 GMT
References: <Pine.3.07.9309271...@acad.csv.kutztown.edu>
Organization: York University
X-Gateway: OS osgo.KS.HE.Schule.de [Uranus-Soft Rfc2Art v1.4]
Computer Science (the academic beast) is an engineering
discipline, requiring a background of mathematics and logic,
a significant grasp of the basics of electronics, and some
appreciation of philosophical questions and human-factors
issues. Its first-year programs are populated largely by
dyslogical mathphobics, hostile to philosophy and human factors,
who can't tell you what "crt" stands for.
What's a "liberal art", by the way ?
--
to...@nexus.yorku.ca = Tony Wallis, York University, North York, Canada.
Anthony Wallis
colosimo%hap...@ods.artnet.schule.de
Realname: Lisa M. Colosimo - MMC
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 13:13:49 GMT
References: <Pine.3.07.9309271...@acad.csv.kutztown.edu> <CE19G...@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca>
Organization: GE Aerospace - VF
X-Gateway: OS osgo.KS.HE.Schule.de [Uranus-Soft Rfc2Art v1.4]
In article <CE19G...@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca>, to...@nexus.yorku.ca (Anthony Wallis) writes:
> Computer Science (the academic beast) is an engineering
> discipline, requiring a background of mathematics and logic,
> a significant grasp of the basics of electronics, and some
> appreciation of philosophical questions and human-factors
> issues. Its first-year programs are populated largely by
> dyslogical mathphobics, hostile to philosophy and human factors,
> who can't tell you what "crt" stands for.
I'd have to agree with Tony - all my "required" classes for my Math/CS degree
came either from the Math dept (in the School of Science), from the
School of Computer Science, or from the Electrical & Computer Engineering dept
(in the School of Engineering). My "liberal arts" or humanities class were
things like psychology, economics, art, music, foriegn languages, etc.
Computer Science is definately an engineering/science discipline - not
a "liberal art".
-Lisa
Lisa M. Colosimo - MMC
> discipline, requiring a background of mathematics and logic,
> a significant grasp of the basics of electronics, and some
> appreciation of philosophical questions and human-factors
> issues. Its first-year programs are populated largely by
> dyslogical mathphobics, hostile to philosophy and human factors,
> who can't tell you what "crt" stands for.
I'd have to agree with Tony - all my "required" classes for my Math/CS degree
Randy Crawford
In article <Pine.3.07.9309271...@acad.csv.kutztown.edu> rie...@acad.csv.kutztown.edu (Oskars Rieksts) writes:
>
>Although the Department of Mathematics and Computer Science is within
>the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences on our campus, for over a decade
>our discipline has been considered a "professional program" as is also
>Nursing and Criminal Justice. Therefore courses offered by our program
>cannot be used to meet the liberal arts requirement. I would be interested
>in hearing from others to see whether this is an issue on other campuses
>and, if so, how it was resolved.
>
> Given that Computing Science has roots in mathematics, logic and
>philosophy that go back well over a hundred years and that it has been
>right in the thick of intellectual ferment for almost 50 years, it is hard
>for me to imagine any good reason why it would NOT be considered a liberal
>art. We are preparing to challenge the status quo on this and, hopefully,
>restore Computer Science to its rightful place. Any help on this would
>be greatly appreciated.
Are you really arguing that *mathematics* is a liberal art? If so, then CS
may qualify as one. But it makes little sense to me to identfy mathematical,
physical, or life sciences as "liberal arts", as you suggest. And simply
because a field has existed for many years does not make it a liberal art.
(The notion that CS has in fact lived that long is arguable.) Certainly
mechanical engineering has been around for millenia and certainly isn't a
liberal art.
A better case might be made for considering CS as a science. CS theory is
grounded in mathematics and in attempts to understand the natural form and
limits to computation. But the bulk of CS qualifies more as engineering than
science. CS is replete with design tradeoffs and known methodology. It is
quintessentially a tool-building discipline.
But as a "liberal art" CS is wholly unqualified. Only in the furthest
stretches of the imagination might CS be seen as art, by design or effect.
The purpose of CS is not generally to challenge, educate or entertain the
beholder, but to get some task done with a minimum of expense. CS is
fundamentally pragmatic. Art is not. And while computer science may be
able to build a better canvas, the computer artist doesn't require (nor
does s/he particularly benefit from) a BS in CS.
Nice try, but don't toss your copy of "Moby Dick" just yet.
--
| Randy Crawford craw...@mitre.org The MITRE Corporation
| 7525 Colshire Dr., MS Z421
| N=1 -> P=NP 703 883-7940 McLean, VA 22102
beidler%guinne...@ods.artnet.schule.de
Realname: Jack Beidler
Date: 30 Sep 93 13:09:11 GMT
References: <Pine.3.07.9309271...@acad.csv.kutztown.edu> <CE19G...@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca>
Organization: Department of Computing Sciences
X-Gateway: OS osgo.KS.HE.Schule.de [Uranus-Soft Rfc2Art v1.4]
In article <CE19G...@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca>, to...@nexus.yorku.ca (Anthony Wallis) writes:
|> Computer Science (the academic beast) is an engineering
|> discipline, requiring a background of mathematics and logic,
|> a significant grasp of the basics of electronics, and some
|> appreciation of philosophical questions and human-factors
|> issues. Its first-year programs are populated largely by
|> dyslogical mathphobics, hostile to philosophy and human factors,
|> who can't tell you what "crt" stands for.
|>
|> What's a "liberal art", by the way ?
|>
|> --
|> to...@nexus.yorku.ca = Tony Wallis, York University, North York, Canada.
First, Computer SCIENCE is a SCIENCE, it is different from engineering,
which is about the application of science.
Is it a liberal art? There are two answers to this:
YES, because the greek roots of the words art and science are the
same. The distinction we give between art and science is a
distinction made in English Universities during the middle ages.
NO, there are only 7 liberal arts as defined by Marcus Capella
and St. Augustine at their school in Carthage (9th century).
Of course, by that definition, liberal arts colleges don't teach
the liberals arts, which are primarily what we today would call
science.
--
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| John (Jack) Beidler |
| Prof. of Computing Sciences Internet: bei...@cs.uofs.edu |
| University of Scranton |
| Scranton, PA 18510 |
| |
| Phone: (717) 941-7446 FAX: (717) 941-4250 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
jester%elmer...@ods.artnet.schule.de
Realname: Wes Jester
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 13:14:03 GMT
References: <CE19G...@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca>
Organization: Martin Marietta
X-Gateway: OS osgo.KS.HE.Schule.de [Uranus-Soft Rfc2Art v1.4]
I have to agree that most schools treat CS as a engineering discipline. However,
there are many in business and industry that wonder why this is so.
Certainly some engineering disciplines are needed, but we also require many
people who are well trained in the needs of running the business. We need people
with good accounting backgrounds, people who understand the requirements of
information storage required by the government and other agencies, people who can
develop a plan, put it on paper with good estimates for development time and
cost, and then execute those plans within budget. We also need people who
can write a good business plan to sell management on the need for certain
systems and the need to perform "process improvement."
Most of this kind of learning comes from the "liberal arts" classes and from
business classes. Therefore, what we really need in academia is a two track
system. One for those who desire to work in the engineering environment
developing compilers, working with manufacturing techniques, building the kind of
object based data storage facilities we are going to need for tommorrows
information needs that are already here. And, the second, a business or liberal
arts based discipline for those who want to work in the world of business, who
can use computer technology as a resource to provide cost-effective solutions to
business problems and to define and implement strategy.
Only a few schools are currently taking this approach. More are sorely needed.
--
+------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Wes Jester | Martin Marietta Information Systems |
| jes...@orl.mmc.com | Mail Point 1269 |
| Phone: (407) 356-3591 | P.O. Box 590385 |
| Fax: (407) 356-6808 | Orlando, Fl.32859-0385 |
+------------------------+-------------------------------------+
......It is always brave to think what other people say.
Georges Duhamal
Jack Beidler
First, Computer SCIENCE is a SCIENCE, it is different from engineering,
crawford%boo...@ods.artnet.schule.de
Realname: Randy Crawford
Date: 30 Sep 1993 21:53:10 GMT
References: <Pine.3.07.9309271...@acad.csv.kutztown.edu> <CE19G...@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca>
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA
X-Gateway: OS osgo.KS.HE.Schule.de [Uranus-Soft Rfc2Art v1.4]
In article <CE19G...@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca>, to...@nexus.yorku.ca (Anthony Wallis) writes:
> Computer Science (the academic beast) is an engineering
> discipline, requiring a background of mathematics and logic,
> a significant grasp of the basics of electronics, and some
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A point of disagreement. Venn diagrams of the CS and EE worlds do not
overlap at all. The best computer scientist need know absolutely no EE.
Let's bury this dead horse already. CS =/= EE.
> appreciation of philosophical questions and human-factors
> issues. Its first-year programs are populated largely by
> dyslogical mathphobics, hostile to philosophy and human factors,
> who can't tell you what "crt" stands for.
Hmm. I never imagined the recognition of CRT to be the measure of
an artist.
>
> What's a "liberal art", by the way ?
It's what your parents pay others to teach you.
It's how the uninitiated identify you as a smart person.
It's a way to keep professors employed.
Randy Crawford
> discipline, requiring a background of mathematics and logic,
> a significant grasp of the basics of electronics, and some
A point of disagreement. Venn diagrams of the CS and EE worlds do not
overlap at all. The best computer scientist need know absolutely no EE.
Let's bury this dead horse already. CS =/= EE.
> appreciation of philosophical questions and human-factors
> issues. Its first-year programs are populated largely by
> dyslogical mathphobics, hostile to philosophy and human factors,
> who can't tell you what "crt" stands for.
Hmm. I never imagined the recognition of CRT to be the measure of
an artist.
>
> What's a "liberal art", by the way ?
It's what your parents pay others to teach you.
Wes Jester
bh%anarres.cs...@ods.artnet.schule.de
Realname: Brian Harvey
Date: 1 Oct 1993 14:37:45 GMT
References: <CE19G...@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> <1993Sep30.1...@iplmail.orl.mmc.com>
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
X-Gateway: OS osgo.KS.HE.Schule.de [Uranus-Soft Rfc2Art v1.4]
jes...@elmer.orl.mmc.com (Wes Jester) writes:
> We need people
>with good accounting backgrounds, people who understand the requirements of
>information storage required by the government and other agencies [...]
Oh, the the liberal arts! Understanding the requirements of information
storage, and accounting!
Silly me, I thought the liberal arts meant understanding the human
condition, appreciating the aesthetic achievements of the species,
perhaps understanding something about human nature, remembering the
mistakes of history, and so on.
(Yes, business may well need people with business skills, and I think
it's fine for schools to teach them. But let's not pollute the language
by calling that a liberal education.)
The idea of breadth requirements used to be that an educated person
should be *educated*, something different from job training, so as to
maintain the standards of human culture and to be prepared for the
challenges of a citizen of a democracy.
These days, instead, we let engineering students get away with pretending
that economics is a social science subject and that technical writing is
a humanities subject, so that we grant degrees to people who have had
no education whatsoever outside of narrow matchbook-cover-school job
training courses.
Pfui.
Brian Harvey
> We need people
>with good accounting backgrounds, people who understand the requirements of
peterson%cs....@ods.artnet.schule.de
Realname: james peterson
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1993 14:41:47 GMT
References: <CE19G...@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> <1993Sep30.1...@iplmail.orl.mmc.com>
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department
X-Gateway: OS osgo.KS.HE.Schule.de [Uranus-Soft Rfc2Art v1.4]
In article <1993Sep30.1...@iplmail.orl.mmc.com> jes...@elmer.orl.mmc.com (Wes Jester) writes:
>
>
>I have to agree that most schools treat CS as a engineering discipline. However,
>there are many in business and industry that wonder why this is so.
>Certainly some engineering disciplines are needed, but we also require many
>people who are well trained in the needs of running the business. We need people
>with good accounting backgrounds, people who understand the requirements of
>information storage required by the government and other agencies, people who can
>develop a plan, put it on paper with good estimates for development time and
>cost, and then execute those plans within budget. We also need people who
>can write a good business plan to sell management on the need for certain
>systems and the need to perform "process improvement."
>
>Most of this kind of learning comes from the "liberal arts" classes and from
>business classes. Therefore, what we really need in academia is a two track
>system. One for those who desire to work in the engineering environment
>developing compilers, working with manufacturing techniques, building the kind of
>object based data storage facilities we are going to need for tommorrows
>information needs that are already here. And, the second, a business or liberal
>arts based discipline for those who want to work in the world of business, who
>can use computer technology as a resource to provide cost-effective solutions to
>business problems and to define and implement strategy.
>
>Only a few schools are currently taking this approach. More are sorely needed.
Seems to me this describes the distinction between a Computer
Information Systems (or Management Information Systems) Department
and a Computer Science Department. Many (not a "few") universities
have two such departments. One is in the Business College (MIS) and
the other is either in the Engineering or Letters and Sciences College (CS)
(depending upon its origins). The two types of departments often
share no resources. Am I missing something?
james sends
--
james lee peterson pete...@CS.ColoState.edu
dept. of computer science
colorado state university "Some ignorance is invincible."
ft. collins, colorado (voice:303/491-7137; fax:303/491-6639)
james peterson
>there are many in business and industry that wonder why this is so.
>Certainly some engineering disciplines are needed, but we also require many
>people who are well trained in the needs of running the business. We need people
>with good accounting backgrounds, people who understand the requirements of
>information storage required by the government and other agencies, people who can
>develop a plan, put it on paper with good estimates for development time and
>cost, and then execute those plans within budget. We also need people who
>can write a good business plan to sell management on the need for certain
>systems and the need to perform "process improvement."
>
>Most of this kind of learning comes from the "liberal arts" classes and from
>business classes. Therefore, what we really need in academia is a two track
>system. One for those who desire to work in the engineering environment
>developing compilers, working with manufacturing techniques, building the kind of
>object based data storage facilities we are going to need for tommorrows
>information needs that are already here. And, the second, a business or liberal
>arts based discipline for those who want to work in the world of business, who
>can use computer technology as a resource to provide cost-effective solutions to
>business problems and to define and implement strategy.
>
>Only a few schools are currently taking this approach. More are sorely needed.
Seems to me this describes the distinction between a Computer
thom%nickel.u...@ods.artnet.schule.de
Realname: The Big Bopper!!!
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1993 03:42:08 GMT
References: <Pine.3.07.9309271...@acad.csv.kutztown.edu> <28dmet$6...@newsflash.mitre.org>
Organization: Indiana University
X-Gateway: OS osgo.KS.HE.Schule.de [Uranus-Soft Rfc2Art v1.4]
Randy said:
CS is fundamentally pragmatic. Art is not. And while computer science may be
able to build a better canvas, the computer artist doesn't require (nor
does s/he particularly benefit from) a BS in CS.
************
This statement might have been true but when you look at the approach of
an Alan Kay or a Jaron Lanier you see an approach very close to artistic
search than the methodlogy of science or applied engineering. And then
to really confuse the issue you look at Harold Cohen the 'father' of
Aaron the art program and you see an artist, a very successful artist,
who left his formal area of work, studied CS/AI programming to create
Aaron.
Maybe the real problem is trying to define CS as either art or science
and ignoring the aspects of each approach art & science which are
essential for 'good' CS. It all gets more interesting when we fuzzy up
the boxes.
--Thom
The Big Bopper!!!
CS is fundamentally pragmatic. Art is not. And while computer science may be
able to build a better canvas, the computer artist doesn't require (nor
does s/he particularly benefit from) a BS in CS.
jvn%fermi.cla...@ods.artnet.schule.de
Realname: Julian V. Noble
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 14:53:39 GMT
References: <CEAyA...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: University of Virginia
X-Gateway: OS osgo.KS.HE.Schule.de [Uranus-Soft Rfc2Art v1.4]
th...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
> Randy said:
>
> CS is fundamentally pragmatic. Art is not. And while computer science may be
> able to build a better canvas, the computer artist doesn't require (nor
> does s/he particularly benefit from) a BS in CS.
> ************
>
> to really confuse the issue you look at Harold Cohen the 'father' of
> Aaron the art program and you see an artist, a very successful artist,
> who left his formal area of work, studied CS/AI programming to create
> Aaron.
To me this is reminiscent of Michelangelo who studied engineering
(structures, metallurgy, etc.) to further his ability to create
sculptures. But this was in essence the acquisition of tools, no
different in principle from forging his own chisels or grinding his
own pigments. The method may be interesting in itself, but it is
not the same as the end product, which stands on its own.
>
> Maybe the real problem is trying to define CS as either art or science
I would say that is the crux. The same applies to mathematics.
Some years ago I chaired a committee whose task was to make rec-
commendations re: Math, Applied Math, various Statistics groups
and CS, to eliminate duplication of effort around the campus yet
provide the needed teaching and consulting services and personnel.
One of our more interesting conclusions was that these subjects
were not properly classified as Arts & Sciences (Math is NOT a
science, in the modern sense of the word; but neither is it art);
nor as engineering. Therefore they should belong to their own
"School of Mathematical Stuff". While there was some sentiment
expressed that said school should be located in academic Siberia
so these disciplines would no longer lower the property values
around the main campus, most agreed that this should be deferred
for practical reasons until the electronic classroom becomes a
real, rather than virtual, reality. However, the "School of
Mathematical Stuff" has remained on the unphysical sheet, owing
to the shortsightedness and parsimony of the administration. So
in the end, our committee report was "A tale told by an idiot,
full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
--jvn
--
Julian V. Noble
j...@virginia.edu
Julian V. Noble
> Randy said:
>
> CS is fundamentally pragmatic. Art is not. And while computer science may be
> able to build a better canvas, the computer artist doesn't require (nor
> does s/he particularly benefit from) a BS in CS.
> ************
>
> Aaron the art program and you see an artist, a very successful artist,
> who left his formal area of work, studied CS/AI programming to create
> Aaron.
To me this is reminiscent of Michelangelo who studied engineering
(structures, metallurgy, etc.) to further his ability to create
sculptures. But this was in essence the acquisition of tools, no
different in principle from forging his own chisels or grinding his
own pigments. The method may be interesting in itself, but it is
not the same as the end product, which stands on its own.
>
> Maybe the real problem is trying to define CS as either art or science
I would say that is the crux. The same applies to mathematics.
Jack Beidler
In article <Oct01.144...@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, pete...@CS.ColoState.EDU (james peterson) writes:
|> In article <1993Sep30.1...@iplmail.orl.mmc.com> jes...@elmer.orl.mmc.com (Wes Jester) writes:
|> >
|> >
|> >I have to agree that most schools treat CS as a engineering discipline. However,
|> >there are many in business and industry that wonder why this is so.
| << stuff deleted >>
|> >
|> >Most of this kind of learning comes from the "liberal arts" classes and from
|> >business classes. Therefore, what we really need in academia is a two track
| << stuff deleted >>
|> >business problems and to define and implement strategy.
|> >
|> >Only a few schools are currently taking this approach. More are sorely needed.
|>
|> Seems to me this describes the distinction between a Computer
|> Information Systems (or Management Information Systems) Department
|> and a Computer Science Department. Many (not a "few") universities
|> have two such departments. One is in the Business College (MIS) and
|> the other is either in the Engineering or Letters and Sciences College (CS)
|> (depending upon its origins). The two types of departments often
|> share no resources. Am I missing something?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No, but many of those programs are. Our department houses both the
computer science program and the CIS program. Majors in both
disciplines gain. The CIS and CS degree programs are practically
identical through data structures and Op. Sys. Personally, I think
that makes the CIS program much stronger than most. In fact, I'd
guess that 80%+ of the job opportunities out there can be met by
majors with either degree, along as the program is a strong program.
I'd like to know how many CIS programs out there require a real
Op. Sys. and Data Structures course? I believe that a good
balance between serious computing courses and business courses
is essential to a good CIS program.
Robert D. Silverman
>th...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
stuff deleted....
> were not properly classified as Arts & Sciences (Math is NOT a
> science, in the modern sense of the word; but neither is it art);
I beg to differ. Math IS a science in the modern sense of the word. The
computer is its experimental tool. The computer is used to conduct
experiments (by doing calculations) that can (and do) lead to new hypotheses
and conjectures. Indeed, there are even cases where proofs have been
constructed by computer. [new proofs, I mean]. There are instances where
previously unsuspected theorems were discovered serendipitously as the
result of perceiving patterns in calculations performed by computer.
For a more complete discussion may I suggest you read my Aug. 1991
article in the Computers and Math section of Notices of the AMS?
It is entitled A Perspective on Computational Number Theory.
--
Bob Silverman
These are my opinions and not MITRE's.
Mitre Corporation, Bedford, MA 01730
"You can lead a horse's ass to knowledge, but you can't make him think"
Randy Crawford
b...@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman) writes:
> j...@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Julian V. Noble) writes:
> > th...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
>
> stuff deleted....
>
> > were not properly classified as Arts & Sciences (Math is NOT a
> > science, in the modern sense of the word; but neither is it art);
>
> I beg to differ. Math IS a science in the modern sense of the word. The
> computer is its experimental tool. The computer is used to conduct
> experiments (by doing calculations) that can (and do) lead to new hypotheses
> and conjectures. Indeed, there are even cases where proofs have been
> constructed by computer. [new proofs, I mean]. There are instances where
> previously unsuspected theorems were discovered serendipitously as the
> result of perceiving patterns in calculations performed by computer.
The same may be said of electrical engineering or psychology. In unusual
circumstances, practitioners in many fields may discover transcendental
truths of nature. It's my belief that such people were either working
in a fringe branch of their non-science which has effectively overlapped
into a science, (like EEs who work in quantum physics or cryogenics), or
else the definition of science has been disproportionately warped to
include philosophers and artists (eg. "What CAN be done with watercolors?").
IMO, mathematics is far too concerned with the possible rather than the
extant to be justly called a science.
Mike O'Connor
jester%elmer.or...@ods.artnet.Schule.de writes:
:Most of this kind of learning comes from the "liberal arts" classes and from
:business classes. Therefore, what we really need in academia is a two track
:system. One for those who desire to work in the engineering environment
:developing compilers, working with manufacturing techniques, building the kind of
:object based data storage facilities we are going to need for tommorrows
:information needs that are already here. And, the second, a business or liberal
:arts based discipline for those who want to work in the world of business, who
:can use computer technology as a resource to provide cost-effective solutions to
:business problems and to define and implement strategy.
:
:Only a few schools are currently taking this approach. More are sorely needed.
So what you're really saying is that you want one class of people who
do all the work and another class of people who are busy being "in
charge", right? Just what everyone needs -- more of a schism between
the guts and the glory. And what about shops where the "world of
business" and the "world of engineering" merge in all sorts of odd
places -- areas that hire "the computer guy" to function as a black
box and make computer problems go away, ranging from planning to
programming, purchasing to implementation -- whatever it takes. At
the B.S. level, the more "practical" aspects have to merge with the
"real world" aspects in a way such that people coming out of such a
program have a good head on their shoulders to handle both... a true
multi-discipline respected approach. (Of course, people qualified to
design such a curriculum are probably busy doing other things. <sigh>)
It's so likely that you'll have to deal with both sides of the coin
that it's pointless to try to hone in at the Bachelor's level.
--
Michael J. O'Connor | Internet: m...@fmsrL7.srL.ford.com
Ford Motor Company, OPEO | UUCP: ...!fmsrl7!opeo!mjo
20000 Rotunda, Bldg. 1-3001 | Phone: +1 (313) 248-1260
Dearborn, MI 48121 | Fax: +1 (313) 323-6277
Scott J. Irwin
defined as:
Academic disciplines, such as languages, history, and philosophy,
that provide information of general cultural concern, as
distinguished from more narrowly practical training, as for a
vocation or profession.
Based on this definition, I would say that Computer Science is NOT a
liberal art.
Scott J Irwin
Sandia National Labs
Albuquerque, NM
sir...@isrc.sandia.gov
fos...@news.uidaho.edu
: Acoording to "The American Heritage Dictionary" liberal arts is
: defined as:
: Academic disciplines, such as languages, history, and philosophy,
: that provide information of general cultural concern, as
: distinguished from more narrowly practical training, as for a
: vocation or profession.
: Based on this definition, I would say that Computer Science is NOT a
: liberal art.
And I would say that by this definition it most definitely IS. Computation
is the activity of performing algorithmic manipulations on finite strings
of discrete symbols. It has totally transformed human civilization in a
span of only a few decades. In fact, It has been claimed (by Rota, I
beleive)---and quite correctly in my opnion---that the only problems in
mathematics which are unique to this century come from computer science.
Moreover, CS is most certainly NOT narrow practical training, though some
very ignorant business people with the compliance of short-sighted
academics have tried to turn CS departments into vocational training
shops.
--
James A. Foster fos...@cs.uidaho.edu
Laboratory for Applied Logic Dept. of Computer Science
University of Idaho
rab...@yang.earlham.edu
Based on this definition I would say the computer science is a liberal art
discipline! The essence of computer science is the big number of computing
languages that many people around the world are interested in. Computer science
is of general cultural concern!! It has changed the whole world -- at least
that is the way I see it. Computer science has a big history that should be
taught, and a philosophy to be understood. Computer science is not just sitting
in front of a computer terminal for hours and hours trying to get a piece of
code to run properly.
People who study computer science should have wider horizons that allows them
to address ethical issues of computer science that arrise everyday. For
example:
If you are system administrator at a university, and a number of students are
getting email (or letter in their mailboxes) which threaten these people with
death. It is obvious to you that the source of these letters is your VAX
system. What would you do?? Some people would say just run a search and find
that person so that he gets his punishement, while others would say that by
running a search you are going to be searching the personal accounts of all the
students and that is exactly like going around campus dorms and sreaching all
rooms for some clue!
This is an example of the kind of problems that a computer science person
should be able to deal with and take the right decision. This may seem as a
really small problem, well if you think about it on a bigger scale (real
crimes, government, big company dbases) it doesn't seem as a small problem to
me!
The definition applies to computer science accept I think that it might seem to
people that the things that you get from a computer science education does give
you the details of a vocatinal profession. I think that what a person gets from
a computer science education is merely an introduction to computer science.
This is the first time I post to this group so I hope that I added something to
the discussion...
Have a good one!
---
Jack A. Rabah / | | _
Computer Science Dept. \ | | / \
Earlham College | / | | / \
Rab...@yang.Earlham.edu ---------- -----------
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