Re: Alltel/AT&T/Cingular in Oklahoma City Market Area
David Clayton
> A Cingular spokesman responded by saying that the company does not
> condone the practice.
> "We do not unlock phones, nor do we recommend that people get their
> phones unlocked," spokesman Frank Merriman said. "That's not something
> that we authorize or perform. If they circumvent the system it can cause
> problems. We make no guarantees about the performance of their phones."
> [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Of course Cingular would not 'condone'
> any practice which did not serve to rip off their customers even more
> than they have been already. So what else is old news? PAT]
That "performance" statement has to be the biggest crock I've seen in
quite a while, GSM is GSM is GSM, the whole concept of a standard is that
all equipment that complies with it will interoperate.
Can't someone stop fools like that who make obviously misleading
statements about "problems" and performance?
Regards,
David Clayton, e-mail: dcs...@XYZ.myrealbox.com
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
(Remove the "XYZ." to reply)
Knowledge is a measure of how many answers you have,
intelligence is a measure of how many questions you have.
Joseph
> Cingular spokesman Frank Merriman said the company won't allow users
> to bring telephones from other networks to ensure "quality remains the
> same across the board" for its users.
Of course Merriman would say that it is to "ensure quality." He's a
company hack!
> "When someone upgrades from AT&T Wireless to Cingular, they need a new
> phone, and the reason they need to upgrade is there is unique software
> imbedded in the phone to enable it to work properly," Merriman
> said. "The AT&T network is not functioning anymore, and there is no
> way that equipment can operate on the system as it is."
Which for a GSM phone is a line of BS. As long as the phone is
unlocked it can work on any compatible GSM network. Of course they
don't want you using an unlocked phone it's one less phone that they
couldn't sell you. Cingular made the decision that when they
"captured" all the former AT&T Wireless callers that Cingular would
reap all the benefits and all the former AT&T Wireless subscribers
would have none of it. To the victor goes the spoils.
Dan Lanciani
> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:52:38 -0400, Wesrock wrote:
>> A Cingular spokesman responded by saying that the company does not
>> condone the practice.
>> "We do not unlock phones, nor do we recommend that people get their
>> phones unlocked," spokesman Frank Merriman said. "That's not something
>> that we authorize or perform. If they circumvent the system it can cause
>> problems. We make no guarantees about the performance of their phones."
>> [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Of course Cingular would not 'condone'
>> any practice which did not serve to rip off their customers even more
>> than they have been already. So what else is old news? PAT]
> That "performance" statement has to be the biggest crock I've seen in
> quite a while, GSM is GSM is GSM, the whole concept of a standard is that
> all equipment that complies with it will interoperate.
So does Cingular do something active to block the use of "foreign" GSM
phones on its network or does it rely on such phones being
subsidy-locked to another provider's network?
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
John Levine
> GSM phones on its network or does it rely on such phones being
> subsidy-locked to another provider's network?
I've used a variety of GSM phones on my Cingular accounts, and they
all work fine so long as they work at the right frequencies.
In Cingular's mild defense, in some areas they're various combinations
of GSM 850, GSM 1900, and still some TDMA 800 and 1900. Most used GSM
phones are GSM 1900, maybe with Euro 900 and 1800 mixed in, and they
won't work on Cingular's largely GSM 850 network.
Even the wrong Cingular phone can fail to work on their own network,
e.g., I just bought a used Nokia 6340i and the seller accidently sent
me a 6340, with the difference being that the 6340 doesn't do GSM 850
which is what Cingular uses around here, so it only gets a faint
signal from an ex-AT&T GSM 1900 cell ten miles away. Oops. I took
one look and knew what was wrong, but a non-technical user could
easily leap to the wrong conclusion about what his problem was.
> Cingular spokesman Frank Merriman said the company won't allow users
> to bring telephones from other networks to ensure "quality remains the
> same across the board" for its users.
That's not even true. When my wife lost her phone last month,
Cingular was happy to sell me a new SIM chip to use in an unlocked
T-Mobile phone I had lying around.
R's,
John
Daniel AJ Sokolov
>> "When someone upgrades from AT&T Wireless to Cingular, they need a new
>> phone, and the reason they need to upgrade is there is unique software
>> imbedded in the phone to enable it to work properly," Merriman
>> said. "The AT&T network is not functioning anymore, and there is no
>> way that equipment can operate on the system as it is."
> Which for a GSM phone is a line of BS. As long as the phone is
> unlocked it can work on any compatible GSM network. Of course they
> don't want you using an unlocked phone it's one less phone that they
> couldn't sell you. Cingular made the decision that when they
> "captured" all the former AT&T Wireless callers that Cingular would
> reap all the benefits and all the former AT&T Wireless subscribers
> would have none of it. To the victor goes the spoils.
How odd. They should be happy to have customers who do not expect to
receive a free handset, but bring their own. Especially in the case of
a Treo. This is likely to be a high value customer with high ARPU und
AMPU.
Daniel AJ
My e-mail-address is sokolov [at] gmx dot net
Joseph
>> That "performance" statement has to be the biggest crock I've seen in
>> quite a while, GSM is GSM is GSM, the whole concept of a standard is that
>> all equipment that complies with it will interoperate.
> So does Cingular do something active to block the use of "foreign" GSM
> phones on its network or does it rely on such phones being
> subsidy-locked to another provider's network?
No, they can't do that. Unlike other technologies such as CDMA and
TDMA (IS-136) where you have to register and authenticate the
handset's ESN to activate it on the network no such stipulation exists
for GSM. If an operator (such as Sprint PCS for example) doesn't want
you to use certain equipment on their network all they have to say is
that they won't activate any ESN other than what they sell or have
sold in the past for use on their network and check it against a
database which they hold. Operators can be as cooperative as they
wish or as uncooperative as they wish. T-Mobile for instance has no
problem securing the unlock codes for any of their handsets.
They'll even attempt to get the unlock for present subscribers from
competing operators. They can't get codes for AT&T Wireless because
AT&T Wireless never released unlock codes under any circumstance.
Still the AT&T Wireless subscriber with GSM equipment isn't totally
out of luck. Some handsets such as are sold by Nokia have readily
available unlock code calculators for PCs which you can download and
generate an unlock code for your handset provided you know what your
operator's MCC/MNC (mobile country code/mobile network code.) Also
there are on line sites that will calculate the code for you while
you're on line either free or for a small fee. Other manufacturers
handsets can be unlocked with procured codes or by modifying the
hardware with flashing and by other means.
It is only the arrogance of this "mouthpiece" from Cingular who
insists that you have no alternative except to buy equipment from
them.
Stanley Cline
> Leonard can't use the Treo on the Alltel network because it uses a
> different technology.
Correct ... AT&T Wireless was and Cingular is GSM, while Alltel is CDMA.
Alltel does own some GSM coverage in the West and Southeast as the
result of acquisitions, but Alltel does not sell GSM service to its
customers; the GSM in former Western Wireless territory in the West
only serves roamers from other carriers, and the GSM in former PSC
Wireless territory in the Southeast only serves a small number of
acquired customers (until they are weaned off GSM to CDMA anyway) and
roamers.
> And Cingular Wireless won't let new subscribers bring their own
> phones even if they use the same digital network.
This statement is partly incorrect. Cingular IS requiring that new
customers accept Cingular-branded equipment when activating service
(and AIUI, T-Mobile USA is too, but unlike Cingular only for
activations through indirect sales channels), but Cingular, like every
other GSM carrier in the world, does NOT prevent GSM customers from
using their own equipment. Technically, Cingular could do so via a
variant of IMEI blacklisting, but no US carrier uses IMEI blacklisting
at all and no carrier in the world does it except for phones reported
lost or stolen.
The problem in this case is almost certainly that the Treo is locked
to the AT&T network (programmed to only accept an 'AT&T SIM') and
won't accept a 'Cingular SIM' ...but that can be very easily worked
around via any number of third-party unlocking services. Cingular
itself won't provide unlock codes for AT&T-branded equipment because
a) AT&T Wireless flatly refused to provide unlock codes under any
circumstances for equipment it sold (AFAIK, they were one of the only
GSM carriers in the world, if not *the* only one, with such a harsh
and restrictive policy) and b) Cingular wants all AT&T-branded
equipment out of customers' hands so it can put Cingular-branded
equipment in their hands. (Cingular DOES provide unlock codes for
Cingular-branded equipment when certain conditions involving length of
service, account status, are met.)
The solution in this specific instance is to:
- get the Treo unlocked via a third-party unlocking service (this
would involve taking or shipping the Treo somewhere; AFAIK, there
are no "remote unlock" options available for Treos like there are
for virtually all Nokias and some Motorolas);
- activate a new line of service with Cingular with no data plan,
accepting any old phone (preferably one that is free or very cheap
with a contract);
- move the SIM from the free/cheap phone to the Treo;
- request the PDA data plan on the newly activated line.
> Cingular spokesman Frank Merriman said the company won't allow users
> to bring telephones from other networks to ensure "quality remains the
> same across the board" for its users.
Cingular generally doesn't allow *TDMA* users (what few there are
left) to do so, but as stated above, they can't exert the same power
over *GSM* users -- well, technically they could, but they don't.
> "When someone upgrades from AT&T Wireless to Cingular, they need a new
> phone, and the reason they need to upgrade is there is unique software
> imbedded in the phone to enable it to work properly," Merriman
> said. "The AT&T network is not functioning anymore, and there is no
> way that equipment can operate on the system as it is."
That is utter cow manure ... IF THE TREO WERE UNLOCKED, which Cingular
itself could do by providing unlock codes but simply refuses to do for
"AT&T"-branded equipment because of "marketing" policies, it would
work on Cingular's network -- or on the network of any other GSM
carrier in the world -- just fine. All Treo firmware, including
carrier-specific versions, already contains all settings needed to run
on the networks of Cingular and a wide variety of other GSM carriers
in the US and around the world, and even if it didn't, GSM is
standardized enough that getting any device up and running fully on
any network just entails changing a few settings to get data and
SMS/MMS working, and to get basic voice service working even that
isn't necessary.
FWIW, I have a Treo 650 running on T-Mobile USA despite their not
selling or officially supporting it. I bought an unlocked 650
directly from Palm(One) and just moved my SIM over from my previous
device, a T-Mobile Sidekick, after activating a data plan appropriate
for the Treo; as soon as I put my SIM in the Treo it configured itself
with the data and SMS/MMS settings required by T-Mobile's network and
has worked flawlessly with my T-Mobile service ever since.
Stanley Cline // Telco Boi // sc1 at roamer1 dot org // www.roamer1.org
"it seems like all you ever buy is Abercrombie and cell phones" --a friend
Daniel AJ Sokolov
>> So does Cingular do something active to block the use of "foreign" GSM
>> phones on its network or does it rely on such phones being
>> subsidy-locked to another provider's network?
> No, they can't do that.
In fact, they could. I don't know if they do, but the technology is
there. Any GSM-network can check the IMEI of any phone, that want's to
connect to the network, and decide whether to allow that phone on the
network or not.
This is actually an anti-theft measure. There are international
databases that collect IMEI numbers of phones reported as
stolen. These phones are rendered useless on networks, that cooperate
with such a database. Sadly, only very few networks do that. They
think economically: "Every phone, that is stolen from someone (which,
most likely, was a customer of another network in another country) and
ends up in my own network saves me (or my customer) a lot of money. So
why should I block it. My customer would be angry, if he didn't know
he bought a stolen phone."
However, you could use that technology the other way round: block all
phones on your network that do not have certain IMEIs -- these being
only IMEIs of phones you sold yourself. Still, I doubt that anyone
would do that, it's not economical.
I think, that the people who've run into problems here have simply
locked handsets and do not know how to unlock them. However, most
handsets can be easily unlocked (except recent Nokia models like 6630
and 6680). Their new provider is too dumb to tell them and rahter
utters some nonsense.