someone noticed 90 percent indians posting on asktom.oracle.com
shrinad
mostly come from india , bangladeh etc
but here in the newsgroup names are mostly from europa or america or people
are not posting with their correct names
thomas kyte is best service you can get for your oracle questions, but he is
payed for his service
from oracle
in these state of it-business I will not answer any questions here, because
it could be from the cheap guy
getting my job, i will only care if I see an interesting question
but quality of postings here is so poor, nobody can read documentation or
search in newsgroups for old answers ...
nobody cares for learning oracle concepts, it is still becoming worse not
better, so I will not care if
some companies will pay a high price for ignoring quality
Maximus
want to bring politics into a technical group then go home... there's enough
bigotry and racism in the world already.
"shrinad" <g...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bh8n07$bu$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
Tanel Poder
because
> it could be from the cheap guy
> getting my job, i will only care if I see an interesting question
Heh-heh, you just have to be good enough, to make employers not care about
your price very much...
Tanel.
Maximus
news:3f37e...@news.estpak.ee...
Yeah, what is it about a little competition that gets people shaking in
thier boots. If you don't wnt to get replaced, you just have to be better.
It's the free-market capitalist way... lol.
Uncle Sam
news:2dSZa.701670$3C2.16...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca:
Yeah but for the avg cost of a DBA in the USA, companies can hire 10 from
India or Russia. They may or may not be as good but even 10 mediocre DBAs
can probably get a lot more done than 1 excellent one.
Dave Hau
point out something outdated in your answer, or point out a better way
to do things, or direct your attention to some new feature in 9iR2 that
you hadn't noticed before.
- Dave
Tanel Poder
> point out something outdated in your answer, or point out a better way
> to do things, or direct your attention to some new feature in 9iR2 that
> you hadn't noticed before.
Good point, Dave. And especially great is if I start posting an answer which
I think I know, but when writing the reply, I start doubting and have to
check docs or do a test to verify my beliefs & assumptions. It's really
educating to find out that you have been wrong in some issue and search for
the right answer...
Tanel.
quarkman
10 crap DBAs are certainly likely to get a whole lot more done than 1 good
one. Including wiping all my data, tuning things dreadfully, and generally
stuffing things up. Point being, India and Russia aren't the obvious choice
for DBAing, unless they're good at it. "Cheap" doesn't mean inevitably that
the work will flow there, otherwise you'd find Botswana somewhere near the
top of the industrial production league tables. There have been quite a
number of posts here lately moaning about 'cheap' Indians, or sort-of
suggesting that Indians/Russians/Whatever aren't really quite as good as a
'proper' DBA... the same sort of argument, incidentally, that had those
nice people on the streets of Seattle not too many years ago, though tinged
I notice in this case with a nice hint of racism.
Have you not heard of the law of comparative advantage? Namely, work goes
to where it can best be done for least cost. Adam Smith wrote about it
about 200 years ago. If India and Russia are doing so well in the DBA
sphere these days, its because they have a comparative advantage in doing
it, only one factor of which may be low cost. And that means you have to
work harder and better to compete, and be prepared to shift your ground to
concentrate on those things where *you* have a comparative advantage.
One would have thought that the lesson would have been learnt by now, given
that such shifts have happened many times in the manufacturing industry
(Manchester still producing cotton goods these days? Norton bikes are the
market leader? Where did your last RAM chip get made?) over the past 200
years. Service industries are not immune, and why should they be?
But you don't react to it by getting racist, just by getting smarter. Web
deployment, anyone?
~QM
Rauf Sarwar
Originally posted by Uncle Sam
> "Maximus" <qwe...@qwqwewq.com> wrote in
> news:2dSZa.701670$3C2.16...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca:"]news:2dS-
> Za.701670$3C2.16...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca:[/url]> > news:3f37e...@news.estpak.ee"]news:3f37e...@news.estp-
> ak.ee[/url]...
> >> > in these state of it-business I will not answer any questions
> here,
> >> because
> >> > it could be from the cheap guy
> >> > getting my job, i will only care if I see an interesting
> question
> >> Heh-heh, you just have to be good enough, to make employers not
> care
> >> about your price very much...
> >
> > Yeah, what is it about a little competition that gets people
> shaking
> > in thier boots. If you don't wnt to get replaced, you just have
> to be
> > better. It's the free-market capitalist way... lol.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Yeah but for the avg cost of a DBA in the USA, companies can
> hire 10 from
> India or Russia. They may or may not be as good but even 10
> mediocre DBAs
> can probably get a lot more done than 1 excellent one.
>
Too many "mediocre" cooks can/will definitely spoil the "Oracle" broth.
Would you like to have 5 mediocre surgeons working on your surgery or
one good one :->).
As for the OP.... Either answer the darn question or move on.... just
quit whining about who posts where and what and from which continent.
Regards
/Rauf Sarwar
--
Posted via http://dbforums.com
Daniel Morgan
> An Oracle question is an Oracle question, choose to reply or don't. If you
> want to bring politics into a technical group then go home... there's enough
> bigotry and racism in the world already.
>
> <snipped>
Please add my signature to your words. Well said!
--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/extinfo/certprog/oad/oad_crs.asp
damo...@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)
Galen Boyer
loads of credence to his lack of quality argument.
--
Galen Boyer
Nuno Souto
> >> Yeah, what is it about a little competition that gets people shaking
> >> in thier boots. If you don't wnt to get replaced, you just have to be
> >> better.
or cheaper.
> > Yeah but for the avg cost of a DBA in the USA, companies can hire 10 from
> > India or Russia. They may or may not be as good but even 10 mediocre DBAs
> > can probably get a lot more done than 1 excellent one.
>
>
> 10 crap DBAs are certainly likely to get a whole lot more done than 1 good
> one. Including wiping all my data, tuning things dreadfully, and generally
> stuffing things up.
and a lot faster than you can too...
> for DBAing, unless they're good at it. "Cheap" doesn't mean inevitably that
> the work will flow there, otherwise you'd find Botswana somewhere near the
> top of the industrial production league tables.
Hmmm, wanna bet the "next frontier" is gonna be mainland China?
For as long as its dictatorial government stays in power.
Then African states will be next. Then what the heck: lapland
will be as good.
> There have been quite a
> number of posts here lately moaning about 'cheap' Indians, or sort-of
> suggesting that Indians/Russians/Whatever aren't really quite as good as a
> 'proper' DBA... the same sort of argument, incidentally, that had those
> nice people on the streets of Seattle not too many years ago, though tinged
> I notice in this case with a nice hint of racism.
What I find amazing is they only started now. The whole thing
has been going on at least in Australia since the early 90's,
how come only now they've woken up?
> Have you not heard of the law of comparative advantage? Namely, work goes
> to where it can best be done for least cost. Adam Smith wrote about it
> about 200 years ago.
He was talking goods manufacturing. Services is not exactly
the same thing...
> it, only one factor of which may be low cost. And that means you have to
> work harder and better to compete, and be prepared to shift your ground to
> concentrate on those things where *you* have a comparative advantage.
exactly. Now, what precisely was that comparative advantage for a
20 year old kid starting in IT now? Or do you sincerely think
yours and my generation are the only ones that will need work in IT
services? See, you don't have kids, I do. These things worry
parents, silly little retards we all are...
> One would have thought that the lesson would have been learnt by now, given
> that such shifts have happened many times in the manufacturing industry
> (Manchester still producing cotton goods these days? Norton bikes are the
> market leader? Where did your last RAM chip get made?) over the past 200
> years. Service industries are not immune, and why should they be?
Well, what I'd like to see is ALL service industries being
subjected to the same scrutiny. Why on earth does IT have to
be singled out for this treatment when there are a zillion others
equally as inefficient and open to the same approach?
I'm thinking here accounting, administration, MIS, sales,
insurance, help desk, secretarial, etc etc. Heck, with a bit
of creativity we can even find a way to outsource McDonnalds to
Botswanna. Then we can all relax and enjoy our middle class living
while someone else does the real work.
Oh, hang on: without jobs there is no middle class, no major
source of income for taxation, no major consumerism, no shopping
centres, no profit, no society in general. Produce anything real
cheap anywhere you want: without a consumer to buy it, it's
worth nothing. Bummer.
What was the problem again we're discussing?
Sometimes, what looks like an easy solution is just the
start of tomorrow's nightmare...
> But you don't react to it by getting racist, just by getting smarter. Web
> deployment, anyone?
You can't feed the cat surfing websites.
But you are right. Either we get another Marx, or we all
re-deploy as Pizza Hut cooks. Let's just hope there are
enough people left with an income large enough to buy a pizza...
There is a limit to how far profitability can be taken. Once it
starts shooting itself on the foot, it must be stopped.
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wizo...@yahoo.com.au.nospam
Stan
-Stan
quarkman
>
> He was talking goods manufacturing. Services is not exactly
> the same thing...
>
Actually, he was talking about the provision of anything, anywhere,
anytime. Tangible or intangible, the law of comparative advantage still
holds sway.
>
> exactly. Now, what precisely was that comparative advantage for a 20
> year old kid starting in IT now? Or do you sincerely think yours and my
> generation are the only ones that will need work in IT
> services? See, you don't have kids, I do. These things worry parents,
> silly little retards we all are...
Depends what you mean by 'starting IT', doesn't it? I mean, if the Uni's
churn out yet more tired old DBAs or MCSEs or their equivalents, then those
20 year olds are going to be in deep doo-doo.
But how about some research on quantum computing? Or on intelligently
applying common tools to uncommon problems? Yadda yadda... the whole point
of comparative advantage is that you can find some somewhere... but you
have to be prepared to look. And change. And change isn't ever comfortable.
So people tend to run away from change, and seek refuge in protectionism
or, as in this thread, racism.
>
>
>> One would have thought that the lesson would have been learnt by now,
>> given that such shifts have happened many times in the manufacturing
>> industry (Manchester still producing cotton goods these days? Norton
>> bikes are the market leader? Where did your last RAM chip get made?)
>> over the past 200 years. Service industries are not immune, and why
>> should they be?
>
> Well, what I'd like to see is ALL service industries being subjected to
> the same scrutiny. Why on earth does IT have to be singled out for this
> treatment when there are a zillion others
> equally as inefficient and open to the same approach?
>
> I'm thinking here accounting, administration, MIS, sales, insurance, help
> desk, secretarial, etc etc. Heck, with a bit of creativity we can even
> find a way to outsource McDonnalds to Botswanna. Then we can all relax
> and enjoy our middle class living
> while someone else does the real work.
>
> Oh, hang on: without jobs there is no middle class, no major source of
> income for taxation, no major consumerism, no shopping
> centres, no profit, no society in general. Produce anything real cheap
> anywhere you want: without a consumer to buy it, it's worth nothing.
> Bummer.
'Sfunny, you know. But I think the 'invisible hand of the market' might
have worked that one out already.
>
> What was the problem again we're discussing?
> Sometimes, what looks like an easy solution is just the start of
> tomorrow's nightmare...
>
>> But you don't react to it by getting racist, just by getting smarter.
>> Web deployment, anyone?
>
> You can't feed the cat surfing websites. But you are right. Either we
> get another Marx, or we all
> re-deploy as Pizza Hut cooks. Let's just hope there are
> enough people left with an income large enough to buy a pizza...
>
> There is a limit to how far profitability can be taken. Once it
> starts shooting itself on the foot, it must be stopped.
Another funny thing about the market: it will tend to stop itself. Oh, it
might need a nudge here and there: it has no social conscience after all.
But there's a nasty tinge to this thread that needs nipping in the bud, if
at all possible.
When I think back to the 70s in the UK, and remember how every man and his
dig was out on strike every other week, and in considerable measure because
the unions were fighting lay-offs in such high tech industries as steel and
coal, I can only laugh at this sort of stuff. IT was once seen as the
threat to the comfortable existence of millions of ordinary people's
comfortable lives, because computers could do it quicker, cheaper and
faster. Now it's the IT industry itself that's moaning about others being
able to do it quicker and cheaper. And maybe better -perish the thought.
But just as there aren't herds of wild welshmen still roaming the hills
looking for a coal mine to go down (they got re-trained and looked
elsewhere for work) so I doubt that we've too much to worry about, so long
as we don't get complacent.
Regards HJR
Noons
> Depends what you mean by 'starting IT', doesn't it? I mean, if the Uni's
> churn out yet more tired old DBAs or MCSEs or their equivalents, then those
> 20 year olds are going to be in deep doo-doo.
You got that wrong: the unis have *never* churned out DBAs or MCSEs. Ever.
It's always been a function of the industry. The darn jobs keep changing
so much there is no way a uni can get together a suitable syllabus for
any of those. Not with the current industry definition of those jobs.
>
> But how about some research on quantum computing? Or on intelligently
> applying common tools to uncommon problems? Yadda yadda...
Unis are not mainstream education for the masses. Not now and even less
the way education is going.
> the whole point
> of comparative advantage is that you can find some somewhere... but you
> have to be prepared to look. And change. And change isn't ever comfortable.
> So people tend to run away from change, and seek refuge in protectionism
> or, as in this thread, racism.
No, I don't think it is racism. The poor Indians just get singled out
because they are the ones currently undergoing all this crap. Give
them another 15 years and they'll start asking for better conditions.
Then they'll lose it and it will be the turn of the Chinese or Africans
or whatever. The problem is not the Indians, they are just the current
vehicle. The problem is the marketing forces that cause this to happen.
As I said more than once: I couldn't care less if it is Indians or
Innuits, they are NOT the problem. However, given that they are for all
intents and purposes the current vehicle, their nation gets mentioned.
That is not racism, that is reality.
As for protectionism, given that EVERY single so-called "advanced western"
state heavily relies on it for just about everything except jobs, you have
to mount a stronger argument than just claim it isn't good. I know it is not
PC, but it's a fact: protectionism is just about as widespread as claims
it doesn't exist. It must be good for something, given its widespread use.
>
> 'Sfunny, you know. But I think the 'invisible hand of the market' might
> have worked that one out already.
>
I dont' think so. The "market" nowadays is characterized by a single
focus on "hit-and-run" strategies. Ie, get the max profit out of the
darn thing before it crumbles or any long term consequences show up.
Witness the major corporate disasters in Australia (and worldwide)
in the last 5 years.
With the consequence that those of us who plan to be around for longer
than just the next release will not be happy with the status quo.
It's starting to reflect on voting patterns. It will only get more
pronounced.
>
> Another funny thing about the market: it will tend to stop itself. Oh, it
> might need a nudge here and there: it has no social conscience after all.
> But there's a nasty tinge to this thread that needs nipping in the bud, if
> at all possible.
Of course. I'm not denying there will be racist people taking
advantage of this for other purposes. Agreed: it needs to be nipped.
But not by denying facts.
> When I think back to the 70s in the UK, and remember how every man and his
> dig was out on strike every other week, and in considerable measure because
> the unions were fighting lay-offs in such high tech industries as steel and
> coal, I can only laugh at this sort of stuff.
I've got my own theories on that. If you're interested we can take it
offline, this is not the place. I sincerely doubt that hasn't seriously
harmed the UK economy in the long run.
> IT was once seen as the
> threat to the comfortable existence of millions of ordinary people's
> comfortable lives, because computers could do it quicker, cheaper and
> faster.
So they went to tremendous lengths convincing people they had to
"evolve" and re-educate themselves if they wanted to keep their
livelyhoods. Which they did. With the result that now they are
being asked to do exactly the same again:
> Now it's the IT industry itself that's moaning about others being
> able to do it quicker and cheaper. And maybe better -perish the thought.
the backlash won't be nice...
> But just as there aren't herds of wild welshmen still roaming the hills
> looking for a coal mine to go down (they got re-trained and looked
> elsewhere for work) so I doubt that we've too much to worry about, so long
> as we don't get complacent.
Amen.
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wizo...@yahoo.com.au.nospam
quarkman
> "quarkman" <quar...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
> news:oprtr3s8ukzkogxn@haydn...
>
>
>> Depends what you mean by 'starting IT', doesn't it? I mean, if the Uni's
>> churn out yet more tired old DBAs or MCSEs or their equivalents, then
>> those
>> 20 year olds are going to be in deep doo-doo.
>
> You got that wrong: the unis have *never* churned out DBAs or MCSEs.
> Ever.
> It's always been a function of the industry. The darn jobs keep changing
> so much there is no way a uni can get together a suitable syllabus for
> any of those. Not with the current industry definition of those jobs.
A certain university in a certain Victorian city is right now offering
classes to produce OCP DBAs (don't scream). Likewise, a certain TAFE in a
certain harbour-side city, is also churning them out. Shocking, isn't it?
The example was illustrative, but not totally unrealistic.
>>
>> But how about some research on quantum computing? Or on intelligently
>> applying common tools to uncommon problems? Yadda yadda...
>
> Unis are not mainstream education for the masses. Not now and even less
> the way education is going.
The masses will always be with us. We're talking IT professionals here!
>> the whole point
>> of comparative advantage is that you can find some somewhere... but you
>> have to be prepared to look. And change. And change isn't ever
>> comfortable.
>> So people tend to run away from change, and seek refuge in protectionism
>> or, as in this thread, racism.
>
>
> No, I don't think it is racism. The poor Indians just get singled out
> because they are the ones currently undergoing all this crap. Give
> them another 15 years and they'll start asking for better conditions.
>
> Then they'll lose it and it will be the turn of the Chinese or Africans
> or whatever. The problem is not the Indians, they are just the current
> vehicle. The problem is the marketing forces that cause this to happen.
Which some might say isn't a "problem" in the first place.
>
> As I said more than once: I couldn't care less if it is Indians or
> Innuits, they are NOT the problem. However, given that they are for all
> intents and purposes the current vehicle, their nation gets mentioned.
> That is not racism, that is reality.
I take the point. But when the posts contain references to 'cheap' and
'mediocre' and in the same breath mentions 'Indians', the association is
suggestive (and there's been more than one post from particular regulars
here making the same connection).
>
> As for protectionism, given that EVERY single so-called "advanced
> western"
> state heavily relies on it for just about everything except jobs, you
> have
> to mount a stronger argument than just claim it isn't good. I know it is
> not
> PC, but it's a fact: protectionism is just about as widespread as claims
> it doesn't exist. It must be good for something, given its widespread
> use.
I don't think it's as widespread as you claim (50 years of GATT and WTO
have got to count for something). And yes, it's always a bad idea. Look at
the Europeans with their massive farm subsidies: they bank-roll mostly
extremely wealthy farmers to over-produce expensive food (so the poor old
European consumer gets clobbered), the surpluses then get exported around
the world (with yet more export subsidies), thus clobbering the poor old
African farmers who'd quite like to sell their runner beans if they could
only get a look-in, and everyone ends up poorer (except the wealthy
farmers). It's abysmal.
Apart from strategic necessities, there are no good economic arguments for
any form of protectionism.
But this is really getting wildly off topic, so I'll stop now. But read
'The Economist' -it's extremely well writen, a good newspaper in its own
right, often very funny, and makes the case better than I ever could
practically every week.
Regards
HJR
Noons
> A certain university in a certain Victorian city is right now offering
> classes to produce OCP DBAs (don't scream). Likewise, a certain TAFE in a
> certain harbour-side city, is also churning them out. Shocking, isn't it?
I'm aware of one of them. No, not at all shocking. But I'll scream loud
and clear if any of those ever dares nail an "upgrade" course to anyone
taking the course now. Or comes out implying one is not certified unless one
takes a new course for every new release. That is not solving the problem,
that is changing the flies.
Let's not forget the TAFE one is highly suss dues to its direct
links with commercial training providers. But I guess something
is better than nothing. I'll be much happier hiring someone
with a TAFE qualification than some highly suss "exam-cram" org!
>
> The masses will always be with us. We're talking IT professionals here!
>
But that is PRECISELY part of the problem! The UK society was told in the 70's
they had to become IT-aware and "professional" in order to be able to "compete".
Look where it's got them! Same is happening now in Australia and a bit all
over the world. We cannot have IT-aware and professional societies and be
elitist regarding IT-knowledge. It doesn't work. Either it is a fundamental
of education and available to everyone or it is an elitist tertiary training
like so many others. It can't be both.
>
> Which some might say isn't a "problem" in the first place.
>
Agreed.
>
> I take the point. But when the posts contain references to 'cheap' and
> 'mediocre' and in the same breath mentions 'Indians', the association is
> suggestive (and there's been more than one post from particular regulars
> here making the same connection).
Unless you're refering to Jithead, it ain't me. But that one is for
a very specific reason: nothing to do with his claimed origin. :)
Yes, I agree some have been in very bad taste. Nothing we can do about it
other than point it out, I'm afraid. It's not a nice situation and
I fear it will only get worse. Many people feel threatened and react badly.
>
> I don't think it's as widespread as you claim (50 years of GATT and WTO
> have got to count for something).
Well, they have counted for nothing: GATT and WTO are the first ones
to admit they failed in major western economies like USA, UK and most
of EEC. I wonder why?
> And yes, it's always a bad idea. Look at
> the Europeans with their massive farm subsidies: they bank-roll mostly
> extremely wealthy farmers to over-produce expensive food (so the poor old
> European consumer gets clobbered), the surpluses then get exported around
> the world (with yet more export subsidies), thus clobbering the poor old
> African farmers who'd quite like to sell their runner beans if they could
> only get a look-in, and everyone ends up poorer (except the wealthy
> farmers). It's abysmal.
Agreed it is abysmal. Yet, who do you think is behind these subsidies?
There is an entire "market" behind it. And it isn't about to change
because it is abysmal, believe me. Too much moolah involved.
> But this is really getting wildly off topic, so I'll stop now. But read
> 'The Economist' -it's extremely well writen, a good newspaper in its own
> right, often very funny, and makes the case better than I ever could
> practically every week.
My first read at the coffee shop in North Sydney, 7:00 am!
Usually takes me through the week too. But I must admit there is one
Java book and a Maths hisdtory book that are currently higher priority. :(
There is no end to this continuous learning thing, is there?
Darn, I love this industry!
:D
Niall Litchfield
news:Xns93D4A24CBFB4E...@130.133.1.4...
> Yeah but for the avg cost of a DBA in the USA, companies can hire 10 from
> India or Russia. They may or may not be as good but even 10 mediocre DBAs
> can probably get a lot more done than 1 excellent one.
For the average cost of an Oracle install you can get 3 SQLServer installs
and 10 mySQL Installs, the products may not be as good but you can still get
a lot more done. Or perhaps not.
--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
Niall Litchfield
news:3f38a675$1$10355$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
<interesting argument guys
> > But how about some research on quantum computing? Or on intelligently
> > applying common tools to uncommon problems? Yadda yadda...
>
> Unis are not mainstream education for the masses. Not now and even less
> the way education is going.
Maybe not in your neck of the woods. In the UK we have this daft target to
get 50% of the school leaving population through University. Assuming this
half assed target doesn't die a quick death (and all political parties seem
to support it cos education is good right?) then University education will
become exactly mainstream education for the masses, a crying shame in my
view.
> > When I think back to the 70s in the UK, and remember how every man and
his
> > dig was out on strike every other week, and in considerable measure
because
> > the unions were fighting lay-offs in such high tech industries as steel
and
> > coal, I can only laugh at this sort of stuff.
>
>
> I've got my own theories on that. If you're interested we can take it
> offline, this is not the place. I sincerely doubt that hasn't seriously
> harmed the UK economy in the long run.
Oh yes the UK economy was seriously harmed both by the absurd conditions of
the 1970s and by the corrective reaction to them in the 1980s. But your
correct this probably isn't the place.
Noons
news:3f38dfb2$0$15033$ed9e...@reading.news.pipex.net...
> > Unis are not mainstream education for the masses. Not now and even less
> > the way education is going.
>
> Maybe not in your neck of the woods. In the UK we have this daft target to
> get 50% of the school leaving population through University. Assuming this
> half assed target doesn't die a quick death (and all political parties seem
> to support it cos education is good right?) then University education will
> become exactly mainstream education for the masses, a crying shame in my
> view.
Maybe. I'd rather have that, than this quaint notion our
government has that anyone taking a uni course has to
fork out 100 grand for it. Which means it is effectively
out of reach for the vast majority of the population.
Mind you: no guarantees of quality, suitability, whatever:
just cough up the moolah and they'll supply the diploma.
I don't think so...
Then again, if they hadn't spent the last 20 years selling
courses to foreign students for that price (plus accomodation)
and making a motza out of it, maybe we'd have someone sensible
in charge of education. Unfortunately, we have a bean counter.
Connor McDonald
I thought you just had to get OCP :-)
--
=========================
Connor McDonald
http://www.oracledba.co.uk
"Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue"
Niall Litchfield
> "Niall Litchfield" <n-litc...@audit-commission.gov.uk> wrote in message
> news:3f38dfb2$0$15033$ed9e...@reading.news.pipex.net...
>
> > > Unis are not mainstream education for the masses. Not now and even
less
> > > the way education is going.
> >
> > Maybe not in your neck of the woods. In the UK we have this daft target
to
> > get 50% of the school leaving population through University. Assuming
this
> > half assed target doesn't die a quick death (and all political parties
seem
> > to support it cos education is good right?) then University education
will
> > become exactly mainstream education for the masses, a crying shame in my
> > view.
>
> Maybe. I'd rather have that, than this quaint notion our
> government has that anyone taking a uni course has to
> fork out 100 grand for it. Which means it is effectively
> out of reach for the vast majority of the population.
Who said it was free. IIRC the last figures I saw said that on *average*
graduates were in debt to the tune of GBP15k or thereabouts. This figure is
expected to rise.
Daniel Morgan
>
> Regards HJR
Welcome back!
Norman Dunbar
Cheers,
Norm.
-------------------------------------
Norman Dunbar
Database/Unix administrator
Lynx Financial Systems Ltd.
mailto:Norman...@LFS.co.uk
Tel: 0113 289 6265
Fax: 0113 289 3146
URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com
-------------------------------------
>> Regards HJR
Kalmact
> I take the point. But when the posts contain references to 'cheap' and
> 'mediocre' and in the same breath mentions 'Indians', the association is
> suggestive (and there's been more than one post from particular regulars
> here making the same connection).
>
Yes. Some of the posts seem to suggest as if the we(Indians) are good
for nothing.I have been in UK for more than a year now and looking at
how some people work and their attitude towards work make me wonder
how they have retained their job for so long. I sometimes get answers
like 'who cares' or 'thats how we have been doing things' when I argue
with them :-) So its definitely not about natinality:-)
> Regards
> HJR
Is that Howard Rogers btw? Good to see you back :-) I was hoping you
would proably start again after I saw Nuno's post a few days back
regarding you appearing again with a different name :-)
Chuck
@dbforums.com:
> Too many "mediocre" cooks can/will definitely spoil the "Oracle" broth.
>
> Would you like to have 5 mediocre surgeons working on your surgery or
> one good one :->).
I won't argue that, but unfortunately it's not the way the corporate bean
counters see it.
Brian Peasland
'QM', similar to 'HJR'. We just didn't see them before.....
Cheers!
Brian
--
===================================================================
Brian Peasland
dba@remove_spam.peasland.com
Remove the "remove_spam." from the email address to email me.
"I can give it to you cheap, quick, and good. Now pick two out of
the three"
Daniel Morgan
If that is true it is a sign of bad IS management. IS managements job, in
part, is to make the financial case for why it needs the best people and the
best technology to make the organization more profitable.
If IS management doesn't clearly see, and address, its responsibility to the
organization's profitability it should be replaced. Bean counting need not
equate with bad decision making.
Joel Garry
> "Niall Litchfield" <n-litc...@audit-commission.gov.uk> wrote in message
> news:3f38dfb2$0$15033$ed9e...@reading.news.pipex.net...
>
> > > Unis are not mainstream education for the masses. Not now and even less
> > > the way education is going.
> >
> > Maybe not in your neck of the woods. In the UK we have this daft target to
> > get 50% of the school leaving population through University. Assuming this
> > half assed target doesn't die a quick death (and all political parties seem
> > to support it cos education is good right?) then University education will
> > become exactly mainstream education for the masses, a crying shame in my
> > view.
Gee, maybe we _need_ an uneducated underclass. (That's severe
cynicism. Where I live, near the US/Mexican border, the economy
couldn't function without cheap labor from abroad, yet there is no
efficient legal mechanism to import it.)
>
> Maybe. I'd rather have that, than this quaint notion our
> government has that anyone taking a uni course has to
> fork out 100 grand for it. Which means it is effectively
> out of reach for the vast majority of the population.
> Mind you: no guarantees of quality, suitability, whatever:
> just cough up the moolah and they'll supply the diploma.
Yeah, I spent years as a student scraping by, got a Bsc and some tech
certs, then did fine with no student debt. My wife got a doctorate
(plus 3000 hours slave labor), married me, so I wound up paying 100
grand... sigh... I make 3 times what she does. It's so expensive to
live here, we're barely middle class (and that only by virtue of my
investment acumen). I wouldn't want to be coming out of college now.
>
> I don't think so...
>
> Then again, if they hadn't spent the last 20 years selling
> courses to foreign students for that price (plus accomodation)
> and making a motza out of it, maybe we'd have someone sensible
> in charge of education. Unfortunately, we have a bean counter.
I find a great deal of cognitive dissonance in supporting free markets
as the Economist does, and the implication that there is something
wrong with having a been counter in charge.
The whole idea of regulation arises because many people agree that a
particular aspect of a free market doesn't work (perhaps because that
aspect violates many of the precepts of a free market). Over time,
people forget why the regulation is there, and blame any resulting
problems on it. Some may indeed come from the regulation, but the
usual reaction these days seems to be to blame it all on the
regulation, and deregulate, to sometimes disastrous consequences.
What may really be needed is a feedback loop to adjust the regulation,
as well as information channels to explain the adjustments. In other
words, accounting.
Now, if you don't like the idea of bean counters in charge, you pretty
much have to come up with some sort of social and economic regulation.
This may be good or bad, depending on implementation specifics.
The more power you give to those with greater resources (and of
course, totally unregulated markets give them the most power), the
more likely you are to have a class divide with no middle class. The
big flamebait in the US and cdo a few years ago was H1-B. Larry and
friends convince the gummint that the US has to reduce protectionism
in order to remain more competitive - importing cheap labor when there
is a "shortage" of American talent, and exporting jobs to cheap areas.
It hurt me some, but I seem to have outlasted it, mostly because I
put my personal economics ahead of just following jobs around. My
experience was, if there were just one or a few H1-B's, no problem,
they're just like anyone else, if sometimes a bit culture-shocked, and
sometimes very paranoid in a dotbomb. But some companies hired them
wholesale, obviously abusing the system, treating the H1's like "hey,
you step outta line, you go back home," and treating everyone else...
the same.
So now we see trolls like the OP - apparently from Europe (from
Germany? I couldn't figure out if the bad english was a joke or not).
I love self-referential humor, especially when unintentional. And we
see complaints about Oracle support - I hadn't had much problem until
recently, when I stepped out of the bounds of my preferred db work.
But I don't know if that is because of India, RWC, some internet worm,
Oracle's internal RAC, or just 'cause it's summer.
jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
Wonder if Rand and Greenspan ever had an affair?
Noons
>
> If that is true it is a sign of bad IS management. IS managements job, in
> part, is to make the financial case for why it needs the best people and the
> best technology to make the organization more profitable.
Used to be...
>
> If IS management doesn't clearly see, and address, its responsibility to the
> organization's profitability it should be replaced. Bean counting need not
> equate with bad decision making.
The problem is nowadays IS management is taken over by people
with a bean counter background and absolutely no experience or
knowledge whatsoever of software or hardware. Other than their
notebooks and spreadsheets.
To these, there is no such thing as "gaining advantage
through better use of technology". There is only the bottom
line, at whatever cost. Preferably quickly, so they
can show how good they are at "trimming the fat off IT"
and move on before anyone can pin medium term consequences
of their indiscriminate cost-cutting on their behinds.
Classic hit-and-run.