Tom Kyte a false idol?
Geomancer
To me, "Tom Kyte" is the name of a product, a figurehead for a huge
corporate marketing machine, and it strikes me a ludicrous that a
group of intelligent people would not be aware of this.
Some folks feel that "Tom Kyte" is just another Oracle marketing tool,
and no more real than Santa Claus.
As I see it, the real credit goes to an entire staff of real DBAs (and
the Oracle development staff) who crank-out material with his name on
it. As a VP, he has dozens of people to produce the voluminous
examples on his web site.
One need to look no farther than his web site. During the week he
spent at OracleWorld, hundreds of lines of answers were provided on
his web site. No way he wrote all that at the same time he attended
the conference.
It's easy to be right when you have the resources of a multi-billion
dollar company behind you. I was also suprised to find that Kyte is
not "worshipped" by everyone, and there are those who say that he is
arrogant, snitty and insulting. I've been told that he sometimes
refers to questions as "stupid" on his asktom web site, and openly
insults people at public appearances.
Personally, I admire Steve Adams and Jonathan Lewis (and even Connor
and HJR) far more, because they are self-made and have gained their
reputations without the benefit of full-page ads in Oracle Magazine,
etc.
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I like the self-made experts. .
. .
Daniel Morgan
>Umm, I'm realy confused by this Gog-like worship of Tom Kyte.
>
>To me, "Tom Kyte" is the name of a product, a figurehead for a huge
>corporate marketing machine, and it strikes me a ludicrous that a
>group of intelligent people would not be aware of this.
>
>Some folks feel that "Tom Kyte" is just another Oracle marketing tool,
>and no more real than Santa Claus.
>
><snipped>
>
>I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I like the self-made experts. .
>. .
>
>
You deserve it too. Criticizing someone that you've probably never met,
certainly never engaged in a technical discussion, and definitely have
never been on the phone or exchanged emails with when confronting a very
nasty technical problem. Tom helped me solve an extremely difficult
problem for AT&T Wireless that was beyond the scope of expertise
available anywhere else.
I would suggest an apology is in order unless you have some reason to
believe he's just an empty hat. And if you believe that ... put it into
print in a forum where it is on-topic. I'd suggest alt.test.
But I would not call my feeling about Tom or anyone or anything else
worship. It is called earned respect.
--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damo...@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)
Jim Kennedy
news:cf90fb89.03091...@posting.google.com...
You certainly don't know what your are talking about and are using such
hyperbole that clearly you have some axe to grind. I've dealt with Tom and
he is what is called a domain expert. He knows his stuff and clearly
demonstrates it at his site and in his books. He is a scientist, if you
spent 15 minutes perusing his FREE site and actually reading his answers you
would see that he has a very direct and straight forward style. (make an
assertion, set up a small test case, bench mark the case, evaluate the
results) He is able to do this fairly rapidly not because he has untold
minions at his beck and call but because the guy knows his stuff. Just read
his books and look at his site. If he had other people editing the answers
the answers would have a different "styles" or "prose". The might be
materially the same technical answer, but how that answer is expressed, the
humor he uses would not be consistent. The guy is consistent.
I have read Jonathan's book and his site and his book are outstanding. I
have learned a lot from reading his material. Both men are top notch.
They have earned every penny.
Clearly, you have not dealt or been a domain expert and are awed that Tom
could actually respond to that many people a day. While I suspect that the
guy is a workaholic; you would be surprised at what a domain expert can do
within his area of expertise. It is like watching a professional athlete;
the task looks like anyone could do it. Until of course you try to do it
yourself.
I am not sure what axe you have to grind or if you are just a troll who
desires flames. I never understand trolling; perhaps it is a preadolescent
thing. My 9 year old exhibits this behavior sometimes - we take away the
Game Cube - ; fortunately, he will grow out of it in the year. I guess as
Bertrand Russell says children are always performing some antic as if to say
"Look at me, Look at me".
Some of use are grateful for having learned from Tom's efforts (and others).
If he really does have minions at his beck and call, so what.(I kind of
doubt it; there would be no benefit to Oracle to state just Tom does it or
many under Tom's guidance do it. Additionally, there is not a similar thing
for Java end of things. ) The service he provides is worth a lot. Should
he feel proud? Of course. If you don't like the guy who cares, don't take
advantage of his site, don't buy his books, and don't recommend it to
others. But whining like a three year old is just not cutting the mustard.
Jim
Howard J. Rogers
OK.. I'll tell you a true story. I was asked to contribute a chapter about
indexes to a book on which Tom was a co-author. I wrote it... Tom ripped it
to shreds.
Mortified was I. And annoyed too. But everything he said had relevance, and
made me re-think how to explain something. Looking back on it (and it was a
*deeply* disturbing experience), I could not have written anything nearly
as clear as I did without Tom's rigorous scruitny and harsh judgement to
appease. And the thing is: that harsh judgement didn't come from someone
who'd arrogated to himself the role of supreme arbiter of Oracle truth, but
someone who'd proved he needed to be taken seriously by having years of
hard experience to his credit.
Point is, you don't "self-make" yourself in this business. You get there
because you learn from others. Even when the medicine has to be forced down
your throat. And then you might transmogrify that experience into terms
that others feel and experience and can understand, because they've been
there too. And then *they* take you seriously, and if they do, others do
too.
If Tom was wrong, I'd call him on it, just I would if his name was Don
Burleson. The difference is that Tom would think about re-phrasing his
criticism so that it was unchallengeable, whereas Don would simply threaten
to sue you.
Conclusion: Tom has *intellectual* integrity. And that's good enough for me.
He admits to being wrong when he is. He doesn't claim "I am a world-leading
Oracle Guru so how dare you confront me with facts!!" as some do. And when
he's right, he's right with a level of insight and understanding that is
deserving of merit.
You might think about that.
Regards
HJR
Bryant
> I was also suprised to find that Kyte is
> not "worshipped" by everyone, and there are those who say that he is
> arrogant, snitty and insulting. I've been told that he sometimes
> refers to questions as "stupid" on his asktom web site, and openly
> insults people at public appearances.
LOL! That was my exact impression, although I would add "prissy" and
"rude" to the description!
I had the misfortune of meeting him at an Oracle Symposium, and was
shocked at how rude he was. He even insulted the host and mocked some
of the questioners for being too ignorant.
Kyte is an incredible jerk, IMHO.
What a joke on his Amazon reviews. The book is out less than a week,
and has over 350 5-start reviews! Tom Clancey, Michael Crighton and
Ernest Heminhway would not get that positive response for a top-selling
novel. It could only be done by a marketing machine like Oracle.
I'll bet 90% of them are Oracle employees. . . .
--
Posted via http://dbforums.com
Bryant
> The service he provides is worth a lot.
You bet. I'm sure Oracle pays him a great deal of cash to be so
generous to us mere mortals who do not have access to the system
internals!
> Should he feel proud?
Are you kidding? If it were me, I'd be ashamed and embarassed to make a
huge salary, plus take credit for having "insights" that only somebody
with the source code would know.
Also, isn't much of the stuff in his latest book just copies of content
that readers can get for free on the "asktom" website?
The only thing I'm in "awe" of is his gall. It takes balls to charge
$41.99 for something that he has already been paid to produce, plus
published in other places.
Chris Chapman
actually rather embarrassed the user group organizer cut him off to let the
sponsors speak.
"Geomancer" <pharfr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cf90fb89.03091...@posting.google.com...
Noons
> Umm, I'm realy confused by this Gog-like worship of Tom Kyte.
God-like.
>
> To me, "Tom Kyte" is the name of a product, a figurehead for a huge
> corporate marketing machine, and it strikes me a ludicrous that a
> group of intelligent people would not be aware of this.
blah-blah-blah-blah....
You seem to have it in for him. Is this another of your
idiotic "on-going issues"? BTW, he and just about any other
person in this group use their real names to post. Why don't you?
Afraid we'd all laugh in your face? Must be that. Or some other
"on-going issue" like so much other crap you put in here.
Try this for a change: contribute here something useful
instead of your usual innuendo and crapola. For a few years.
Help people here. Do so with your real name. Then you'll earn
respect. The sort that makes people respect Tom's work for.
>
> Some folks feel that "Tom Kyte" is just another Oracle marketing tool,
> and no more real than Santa Claus.
And a bloody good one too.
> I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I like the self-made experts. .
Everyone does. You get flamed for something else. Your arrogance
in coming here dumping on people under an assumed ID. Defines you as
just another pusillanimous pseudo intellectual.
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wizo...@yahoo.com.au.nospam
Jim Kennedy
news:3366077.1...@dbforums.com...
>
> > The service he provides is worth a lot.
>
>
>
> You bet. I'm sure Oracle pays him a great deal of cash to be so
> generous to us mere mortals who do not have access to the system
> internals!
So you are jealos that he might make a lot of money. That's pretty sad. If
you actually read his stuff and went to his site you would see that what he
does does not involve knowledge about undocumented system internals.
Instead it involves, RTFM and a strong habit of scientific method.
>
>
>
> > Should he feel proud?
>
>
>
> Are you kidding? If it were me, I'd be ashamed and embarassed to make a
> huge salary, plus take credit for having "insights" that only somebody
> with the source code would know.
>
So you are saying tht if you work hard and provide a useful service that you
shouldn't make a lot of money. Earning money is a bad thing. You must be
about 8 years old or have the mentality of such. Again if you actually read
the stuff you would know that the techniques he uses do not involve any
inside knowledge. If you RTFMed you would find that there is a huge amount
of detail about the "Oracle internals". But then again that would involve
reading and learning and not putting others down. I guess it would not be
attention getting enough.
>
>
> Also, isn't much of the stuff in his latest book just copies of content
> that readers can get for free on the "asktom" website?
>
>
>
> The only thing I'm in "awe" of is his gall. It takes balls to charge
> $41.99 for something that he has already been paid to produce, plus
> published in other places.
Ah, so you don't think people should have to pay. Well, let me clue you
into something called Adam Smith's invisible hand. If you don't like it
don't buy it, certainly no one is forcing you. For those that do desire the
book and find the $42 a good deal we will buy it. If not enough people buy
it it is unlikely that another one will be done and Tom probably gets paid
based on quanity. That is the invisible hand of the marketplace. If there
is demand for something then people will produce it and conversly if there
is not a demand for something then people will not produce it for long.
Some of us live in a (here comes that word you probably hate) capitalistic
society and so people get compensated (shudder) by how much and how
effective they are at producing goods and services. That judgement of how
effective they are is made by the great mass of people who either buy or do
not buy whatever you are selling.
Jim
alcesteatx...@com.or.net
> To me, "Tom Kyte" is the name of a product, a figurehead for a huge
> corporate marketing machine, and it strikes me a ludicrous that a
> group of intelligent people would not be aware of this.
Nobody worships Tom Kyte. A whole lot of people believe that he is
the best guy out there when it comes to learning Oracle. I'm among them.
Tom is a man. He's just smarter than you.
> Some folks feel that "Tom Kyte" is just another Oracle marketing tool,
> and no more real than Santa Claus.
Tom is a terrifically effective Oracle marketing tool. No doubt.
People like to buy a product they know how to use and can get information
on. If Microsoft or IBM had a similar site it would be a great tool for
them, too.
> One need to look no farther than his web site. During the week he
> spent at OracleWorld, hundreds of lines of answers were provided on
> his web site. No way he wrote all that at the same time he attended
> the conference.
This kind of thing is just a great example of not knowing what kind of
a guy Tom is. The man answers questions night and day. He's a nut.
> It's easy to be right when you have the resources of a multi-billion
> dollar company behind you. I was also suprised to find that Kyte is
> not "worshipped" by everyone, and there are those who say that he is
> arrogant, snitty and insulting. I've been told that he sometimes
> refers to questions as "stupid" on his asktom web site, and openly
> insults people at public appearances.
Part of the credibility Tom has acquired is in the fact that he's not
just an Oracle puppet. Sure, he needs to keep his job, but he also
regularly points out when Oracle documentation, marketing, and features
aren't what they need to be.
As for his personality, I haven't experienced any of the things you've
described. I've had interactions with Tom, personal and business, and
the worst I can say about him is that he's got the same personality as
most "men obsessed" I've ever met. Sometimes he's short and doesn't
suffer fools who aren't prepared to listen, but even in dealing with
novices he can be quite patient and explain things quite well.
If you'd read his website (besides knowing far more about Oracle) you'd
find that the same holds true.
Marc Blum
<SNIP DUMB BLA>
...
</SNIP DUMB BLA>
After downloading the three free available chapters of Tom's new book, I ordered
a copy for *each* of our junior developers. Next steps:
- arrival of the books
- "Hey guys, stop immediately coding. SWALLOW THIS!!!"
The book really nails down a working/approved attitude to get the job done.
hth
-----------------------
Marc Blum
mailto:ma...@marcblum.de
http://www.marcblum.de
Greg Teets
The Oracle Press site has only one and Amazon had none.
Thanks for the info.
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:25:36 +0200, Marc Blum <ma...@marcblum.de>
wrote:
Stan
Connor McDonald
Some things worth my 2c worth...
a) "No way he wrote all that at the same time he attended the
conference."
Actually I bumped into Tom most days at the conference - typically
sitting on a bean bag with his laptop answering asktom question via
wireless. Even the night I had dinner with Tom and a few colleagues, he
left somewhat early to get in a few questions answered before returning
to meet us at the bar
b) "because they are self-made"
If I recall correctly, Tom "cut his teeth" on this very newsgroup. He
only stopped posting here somewhere around year 2000 when asktom came
into existence
c) "openly insults people at public appearances"
Unlike myself (because I'm much more of a bitter twisted bastard) I've
never heard Tom turn an objective debate into a subjective debate unless
it was either initiated by the other party or the objective advice was
ignored.
Cheers
Connor
--
=========================
Connor McDonald
http://www.oracledba.co.uk
"Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue"
Connor McDonald
I was one of the technical reviewers for the book (and no I'm not on
commission) but I think its value for money.
It would not be odd to see those reviews on amazon given that the oracle
bookstore at oracle world did a roaring trade for many books, Tom's
being among them.
Telemachus
I learned from him the scientific approach to this business. Go in with
hard numbers and have a repeatable test.
It is not impossible for one man to crank out that amount of 'material' he
does. The design of the website is being hived off as a separate Oracle
product (htmldb.oracle.com )
Try answering questions yourself to get a feel. If you want to start there
is here or the Oracle Technet forums which are quite busy.
He may 'know' the systems internals but if you are careful to watch he makes
little use if any of them preferring instead to rely on published material
to prove his cases.
He can also be found here on this site sometimes with answers.
"Geomancer" <pharfr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cf90fb89.03091...@posting.google.com...
Noons
>
> c) "openly insults people at public appearances"
>
> Unlike myself (because I'm much more of a bitter twisted bastard) I've
> never heard Tom turn an objective debate into a subjective debate unless
> it was either initiated by the other party or the objective advice was
> ignored.
>
Not that there is anything wrong with that. Particularly
when it involves the kind that start threads like this...
Niall Litchfield
Mythical beasts operate in a different world to the rest of us. That might
explain your confusion
> To me, "Tom Kyte" is the name of a product, a figurehead for a huge
> corporate marketing machine, and it strikes me a ludicrous that a
> group of intelligent people would not be aware of this.
Perhaps 'intelligent people' are able to use a marketing resource which
contains useful technological information effectively. Nothing wrong with
marketing efforts if they help you gain value from the product.
> Some folks feel that "Tom Kyte" is just another Oracle marketing tool,
> and no more real than Santa Claus.
Presumably not the people who have met him.
> As I see it, the real credit goes to an entire staff of real DBAs (and
> the Oracle development staff) who crank-out material with his name on
> it. As a VP, he has dozens of people to produce the voluminous
> examples on his web site.
It may be true, but given his record of attributing answers to others where
appropriate , including members of the Oracle development staff, I doubt it
is significantly true.
> It's easy to be right when you have the resources of a multi-billion
> dollar company behind you.
Remarkably easy to be wrong when you have the resources of a multi-billion
dollar company behind you as well. It is much harder to be wrong if you set
up tests, test and refine opinions as a result. Call it scientific method,
rationalism or whatever it works well and anyone can do it.
> I was also suprised to find that Kyte is
> not "worshipped" by everyone, and there are those who say that he is
> arrogant, snitty and insulting. I've been told that he sometimes
> refers to questions as "stupid" on his asktom web site, and openly
> insults people at public appearances.
I've never seen Tom insult people in writing, it seems somewhat unlikely
that he would be different in public. I have seen him disagree with people
and demonstrate why. This is hardly a bad thing. Sometime people are wrong,
agreeing about what we disagree with and agreeing how to resolve it is a
good step towards advancing the level of knowledge in the community.
> Personally, I admire Steve Adams and Jonathan Lewis (and even Connor
> and HJR) far more, because they are self-made and have gained their
> reputations without the benefit of full-page ads in Oracle Magazine,
> etc.
>
> I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I like the self-made experts. .
No such thing as a self-made expert. Yes in all things you need to take
responsibility for your own knowledge and development but no-one is entirely
self taught. For what its worth a list of people that have contributed to my
knowledge of Oracle would be
Mrs Phillips,Q,Kevin Loney,Don Burleson,Connor McDonald,Julian Dyke,Richard
Miller, Tom Kyte,HJR,Mogens Norgaard,Tanel Poder, Jonathan Lewis,Norman
Dunbar,Daniel Morgan,Sybrand,Jim Kennedy,Nuno, Steve Feuerstein and many
more nameless ones. I don't worship any of them but people who say useful
and testable stuff add to the sum of knowledge. I'd be prepared to bet that
your other self-made experts have even longer lists (and have learned
shedloads more than I have), and that plenty of people you have never heard
of have worthwhile contributions to make to the community in the various
forums that exist.
The ad-hominem attack on Tom is unacceptable, the idea that some Names are
more worthwhile than others is also unacceptable. Some ideas are right and
some wrong and some true sometimes but not always. Test the idea and decide
accordingly. The only thing I would mention is that those who tend to be
right also tend to be those that hypothesize and test, not methings a
co-incidence.
--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
Telemachus
Dyke,Richard
> Miller, Tom Kyte,HJR,Mogens Norgaard,Tanel Poder, Jonathan Lewis,Norman
> Dunbar,Daniel Morgan,Sybrand,Jim Kennedy,Nuno, Steve Feuerstein and many
Q ? From the Q Continuum ?
Tell us more !
Daniel Morgan
Alan
consider him to be one of the leading authorities on Oracle. I can't say he
was particularly rude. He seemed nice enough, in fact. My only complaint is
that he looks at most problems from a developer's point of view, and thus
usually returns a developer's solution. But guess what- the solutions work-
and who cares if he has to ask one of his many charges for help. Knowing
_where_ to get an answer is one of the most important skills a DBA can have.
"Geomancer" <pharfr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cf90fb89.03091...@posting.google.com...
Tyler D. Muth
impressions of others personalities are wholly subjective and cannot
be argued.
I am a co-worker of Tom's and have been asked several times by Tom to
respond to questions on AskTom where I might be in a position to
provide a better answer. Tom does this from time to time as he works
with a number of people who are considered "experts" on certain topics
which, to the benefit of his readers, Tom chooses to leverage. The
important point here is that Tom gives credit where it is due and
clearly states that he is not answering the question, as evidenced by:
http://asktom.oracle.com/pls/ask/f?p=4950:8:::::F4950_P8_DISPLAYID:1739411218448
http://asktom.oracle.com/pls/ask/f?p=4950:8:::::F4950_P8_DISPLAYID:688976960025
http://asktom.oracle.com/pls/ask/f?p=4950:8:::::F4950_P8_DISPLAYID:4061080732051
http://asktom.oracle.com/pls/ask/f?p=4950:8:::::F4950_P8_DISPLAYID:2200894550208
http://asktom.oracle.com/pls/ask/f?p=4950:8:::::F4950_P8_DISPLAYID:6749198829295
The second point I'd like to make is that nobody else was answering
questions for Tom during OracleWorld. I flew out with him and when I
met him in the airport, he was sitting there with his laptop, AirCard,
and external battery answering away. I caught him answering questions
on several other occasions at OracleWorld. So unless you see the "I
asked so-and-so to answer this for me" line in at the beginning of the
response, assume it was from Tom.
If you feel that he was not responsible for the material in his books,
send him an email asking him for a break-down of the chapters and who
authored them. I'm sure he'd be happy to CC the co-authors in case
they wish to disagree.
pharfr...@hotmail.com (Geomancer) wrote in message news:<cf90fb89.03091...@posting.google.com>...
Daniel Morgan
>I'll only respond to the factual inaccuracies of this post, as
>impressions of others personalities are wholly subjective and cannot
>be argued.
>
>I am a co-worker of Tom's and have been asked several times by Tom to
>respond to questions on AskTom where I might be in a position to
>provide a better answer. Tom does this from time to time as he works
>with a number of people who are considered "experts" on certain topics
>which, to the benefit of his readers, Tom chooses to leverage. The
>important point here is that Tom gives credit where it is due and
>clearly states that he is not answering the question, as evidenced by:
>
><snipped>
>
Thanks for jumping in and thanks for being such a big help to the
community. Tom gets a lot of credit,
well deserved, but we owe a thanks to those like you that work with him
and for the most part you are
anonymous.
Any time you find yourself in Seattle and would like to be a guest
lecturer at the University of Washington,
contact me. I'm sure my students would enjoy meeting you.
Jim Kennedy
Jim
"Tyler D. Muth" <tyler...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1afec35e.03091...@posting.google.com...
Marc Blum
>Where did you find three sample chapters of the book?
>
>The Oracle Press site has only one and Amazon had none.
just have a look at http://asktom.oracle.com
Brian Peasland
> and no more real than Santa Claus.
I met him once before at a conference. No red suit or black boots. He
was shorter than I thought he would be though.....
I did some technical editing on his Expert One-on-one Oracle book. We
even had a disagreement about one of his chapters. We talked about this
briefly when I met him at the conference. This discussion occurred
shortly before his book was going to press, but after *most* of the book
was written, and Wrox Press had him there at the IOUG conference in
Orlando. He wasn't arrogant or rude with me. In fact, after that
conference, when I got my official copy of the book, I found that some
of the points that I had, where we were in disagreement, actually made
it into the book. I didn't write anything for the book, so I didn't get
any credit, nor did I deserve any credit. My function was to read what
was written and make comments on it from a technical standpoint. Was the
information correct? Did the example code work as written? Was there a
better technical solution to the problem being discussed? At no point
during any of our discourse in him writing the book and my technical
editing of the book, and at no point during our discussions face to
face, did I find him to be rude or arrogant.
Finally, I admit that I don't know Tom Kyte that well. And I'd be
surprised if he remembered me that much since our interactions were
brief. But my experience with him has been different than the ones that
you describe.
Cheers,
Brian
--
===================================================================
Brian Peasland
dba@remove_spam.peasland.com
Remove the "remove_spam." from the email address to email me.
"I can give it to you cheap, quick, and good. Now pick two out of
the three"
Geomancer
> respond to questions on AskTom where I might be in a position to
> provide a better answer. Tom does this from time to time as he works
> with a number of people who are considered "experts" on certain topics
> which, to the benefit of his readers, Tom chooses to leverage. The
> important point here is that Tom gives credit where it is due and
> clearly states that he is not answering the question, as evidenced by:
Well, I stand corrected.
Tom Kyte must be am amazing fellow to crank-out such huge volumes of
high-quality work. Not many folks who can do the work of 10 men.
Having seen the Oracle marketing hyperbole, I supposed I have a
preconceived suspicion about Oracle-Corporation-related experts, but
it appears that Tom Kyte is worthy of adulation.
I guess I'll hop over to Amazon and try a copy.
Daniel Morgan
>Well, I stand corrected.
>
Thank you for saying so.
>Tom Kyte must be am amazing fellow to crank-out such huge volumes of
>high-quality work. Not many folks who can do the work of 10 men.
>
And quite a few women no doubt too.
>Having seen the Oracle marketing hyperbole, I supposed I have a
>preconceived suspicion about Oracle-Corporation-related experts, but
>it appears that Tom Kyte is worthy of adulation.
>
It isn't adulation. It is respect. I wouldn't walk across the street to
meet him any more than I expect
he'd walk across the street to meet me. But I do respect him for his
intelligence, knowledge, and willingness
to help others.
>I guess I'll hop over to Amazon and try a copy.
>
>
It's worth the price. And if you disagree send our copy to me and I'll
reimburse you. I'll auction the book off
at the local user group's next meeting.
PNIC
To write such a slanderous note and not even have the decency to put
your name on it! I can see you stand behind your words!
Does Thomas Kyte exist? Absolutely. I guarantee you he is not a
product! He has successfully assisted me through some very serious
issues. He has been an excellent resource of Oracle knowledge.
Dependable, fast, efficient and to the point, no messing around.
With this extensive knowledge he decided to set up a site to share his
knowledge with others. He has taken his years of experience and
knowledge and has written a reference book to help aid the Oracle
Users of the world, which I own and use!
In dealing with Mr. Kyte I have never found his responses arrogant!
Educated and knowledgeable opinions, yes, but he has been far from
arrogant with me. I would describe him as straight forward, to the
point and accurate.
I was appalled and horrified that a man who spends countless hours
responding/helping people with their Oracle problems could be
ridiculed for his dedication!
P Nicholls
p.s. I think Thomas Kyte is better than Santa Claus because Santa only
comes once a year and Thomas you can depend on year round for help!
Joel Garry
> > respond to questions on AskTom where I might be in a position to
> > provide a better answer. Tom does this from time to time as he works
> > with a number of people who are considered "experts" on certain topics
> > which, to the benefit of his readers, Tom chooses to leverage. The
> > important point here is that Tom gives credit where it is due and
> > clearly states that he is not answering the question, as evidenced by:
>
>
> Well, I stand corrected.
Tom is a demi-god, at least!
>
> Tom Kyte must be am amazing fellow to crank-out such huge volumes of
> high-quality work. Not many folks who can do the work of 10 men.
I think if you go back and look at his earliest cdo posts (circa '95),
you'll see someone who worked for Oracle Government, and worked very
hard at learning all the rules and at applying them, then patiently
explaining them to people. Now repeat and enhance for another 8 years
and it doesn't seem all that amazing anymore. But laudable,
nonetheless. What's amazing is he hasn't burned out.
>
> Having seen the Oracle marketing hyperbole, I supposed I have a
> preconceived suspicion about Oracle-Corporation-related experts, but
> it appears that Tom Kyte is worthy of adulation.
That is a reasonable suspicion. Oracle does have high entry-level
requirements for their people, but that doesn't rule out self-serving
"white papers" and such, nor does it rule out overly-specific advice
coming from people who are amazed they can get something to work at
all. Tom _is_ worthy of adulation. Just don't kiss his feet, they
are probably clay.
I agree with the previous post about him having too much of a
developer viewpoint, but that's ok too. That's what he does.
>
> I guess I'll hop over to Amazon and try a copy.
jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/uniontrib/sat/business/news_1b13oracle.html
Billy Verreynne
> Well, I stand corrected.
Hmm.. looks more like you stand knee-deep in excrement of your own
making.
> Tom Kyte must be am amazing fellow to crank-out such huge volumes of
> high-quality work. Not many folks who can do the work of 10 men.
As my dad is fond of saying. Sarcasm is the last convulsions of a
rotten mind.
> Having seen the Oracle marketing hyperbole, I supposed I have a
> preconceived suspicion about Oracle-Corporation-related experts, but
> it appears that Tom Kyte is worthy of adulation.
You mistake respect for technical expertise as adulation. Which is not
surprising given your postings on this subject. You seemingly are
mistaken on numerous issues.
> I guess I'll hop over to Amazon and try a copy.
The only sensible statement you have made thus far.
--
Billy
Guido Konsolke
But let's close it.
For the benefit of Mr. Kyte... ;-)
Greetings,
Guido
Alan
"Guido Konsolke" <Guido.K...@triaton.com> wrote in message
news:10637912...@news.thyssen.com...
Niall Litchfield
chose to teach in a state college so as to carry on his other job as an
international rugby referee. Brilliant mathematician, excellent teacher, not
great at interfering with life on USS Enterprise.
--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
*****************************************
Please include version and platform
and SQL where applicable
It makes life easier and increases the
likelihood of a good answer
******************************************
"Telemachus" <telem...@ulysseswillreturn.net> wrote in message
news:lLi9b.31778$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
Joel Garry
> Your age is showing.
Hey, my 7-year-old has loved "Yellow Submarine" for _years_. I think
he's seen it more than I have. :-)
jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
Arrrrr, http://www.talklikeapirate.com/
Guido Konsolke
> Your age is showing.
>
>
Yes, it is.
But to recogni(z/s)e that song
you must be an oldie, too.
;-))
Greetings,
Guido
Alan
Mr. Kite".
"Guido Konsolke" <Guido.K...@triaton.com> wrote in message
news:10638786...@news.thyssen.com...
Guido Konsolke
> I am so old that I even know the correct title is, "Being for the
Benefit of
> Mr. Kite".
>
Come on, if you really were *that* old
you would have forgotten almost everything ;-).
Trust me, I'm on the same side of the fence.
Nice weekend,
Guido
steveg...@gmail.com
I find it extremely irritating how the self appointed select few come across as being better than the rest of us, but are they really? It may seem that way because they have a public platform from which to demonstrate their alleged superiority. However, there's nothing wrong with being a capable, smart, hard working Oracle pro, just going about your business quietly and efficiently without shouting from the mountain tops every 5 minutes about how brilliant you think you are. The sheeple who buy into this are even worse IMO. Some people just continue to gorge on the Oracle Kool-Aid and some don't. Personally, I don't and I don't think TK is some kind of Oracle messiah either. 3 reasons:
1. I've been to some of his so called presentations and he came across as having the personality of a rock. I was unimpressed. This is also true of some of the high profile authors who the sheeple also admire and adore.
2. A couple of years ago he agreed to participate in a 'performance tuning US tour' where the participants were billed as "performance rock stars". Seriously? I've been an Oracle DBA for 20+ years, do not consider myself an "expert" in any way and just try to do my best and be the best DBA I can be in my daily work. If I'd been approached with this gig, my response would have been, "No. That's extremely embarrassing and comes across as being unbelievably arrogant. Bad idea. Try again". TK and two of his buddies signed up and off they went on their jolly around the US. I didn't attend.
3. From time to time I have scanned TK's AskTom thing and I find many of his answers to be quite rude and condescending. That said, much of what I've seen is posted by people who very obviously have not read the documentation or even tried to figure it out for themselves. I'm sure TK gets frustrated with this and some of his replies reflect that. However, the sheeple's lazy incompetence is what fuels the ego and status of people like TK.
I reserve an ounce of respect for TK on the basis I read somewhere that although he comes across as all knowing in his AskTom blog thing, he never makes any mention of how long it took him (or others) to arrive at a complete, correct and definitive answer. Fair enough.
Bottom line, the Oracle world just like many walks of life, will always attract some who will seek to raise their profile because they want to be seen as leaders, the cream-of-the-crop, the A-Listers, whatever you want to call them. Equally there will be a section of the peasant class who'll hang on their every word and defend them to the death (ala the replies to Geomancer's 'heretical' post). I have little time for either group and prefer to be my own 'expert' (for want of a better word).
Just don't get me started on the elitist Oak Table crowd of the annual 'love-in' known as Open World. ;-)
Peace out,
Steve.
joel garry
I would add, before this thread I had seen him sitting on a hallway floor at a conference, cranking out answers to asktom.
I've also met him personally in the distant past, again at conferences, and he is direct and personable. I think what people perceive as rudeness is simply the old-skool hardcore programmer ethic, where your worth is judged on your technical prowess. Also, he has said (again, this is long ago) he enjoys going into meetings with skeptical devs (imagine a pre-sales government group with a bias towards MS) and explaining all their technical objections. You really, really have to know your stuff to do that, people will rip you to shreds if you don't.
Now, maybe things have changed, it's been a while since I've gone to a big conference. After one too many top-ten lists, they all started to sound the same. But that's just me, I still encourage most anyone to go to these large conferences, meet these people, and learn lots of stuff. You don't have to drink the kool-aid, most of the top people appreciate a good technical deconstruction.
Look on twitter - yes, these people tend to be one big love-fest, but again, if you have a viable criticism, most will appreciate the chance to either learn something or explain it.
And that's why I've always been a big Tom fan - we doesn't just say it, he gives reproducible demos, where you can try it yourself, and mod it if you think something is wrong, so we can all learn. Same with Richard Foote and plenty of others.
That's the magic.
I'm with you on some of the Oakies, having borne the brunt of some unfair abuse, but most of them are actually worthy of the title. We're all people, with all the cliquishness and other failings that implies.
I can understand being put off by Oracle's marketeering - I feel that way myself. But then again, it can be fun to immerse in the silliness, if only for the chance to get up close to Berlin or whomever.
The "Public Platform" argument is pretty hollow these days. Anyone can blog, tweet, make themselves into the Foole if they want. Pretty much the only limitation is spending enough time working so you don't get fired.
If you want some interesting non-Kool-Aid, check out Kevin Closson's tweets.
Mark D Powell
-- Mark D Powell --
A. Mehoela
>
> You do realize this thread is a dozen years old?
>
joel garry
> > Steve.
>
> I have never read a response from Tom that was crude or condescending on AskTom or anywhere else. I notice you do not provide an actual reference link.
>
> -- Mark D Powell --
People can get invested in their own code and take offense at that. Some people can take offense at anything.
Sue, Sue, Sue ya http://channeleye.co.uk/oracle-sues-customer-for-suing/
Noons
> I find it extremely irritating how the self appointed
> demonstrate their alleged superiority. However, there's nothing wrong
> with being a capable, smart, hard working Oracle pro, just going
> about your business quietly and efficiently without shouting from
> the mountain tops every 5 minutes about how brilliant you think you
> are.
:)
> The sheeple who buy into this are even worse IMO.
They exist everywhere.
>This
> is also true of some of the high profile authors who the sheeple also
> admire and adore.
On second thought: don't bother. Not only are they open liars, they
specialize in the "poor me" victimization caper.
> tuning US tour' where the participants were billed as "performance
> rock stars".
ridiculous it begs disbelief. But when you get room fulls of them
guzzling down beer and yelling at each other how good they are, there is
no stopping the sheeple!
> be the best DBA I can be in my daily work. If I'd been approached
> with this gig, my response would have been, "No. That's extremely
> embarrassing and comes across as being unbelievably arrogant. Bad
> idea. Try again".
Mostly on the grounds that I don't like clowns in my professional
entourage.
(The REAL reasons are well known, so I won't go into them now)
> 3. From time to time I have scanned TK's AskTom thing and I find many
> of his answers to be quite rude and condescending.
personally and he came across as a very accessible and humble person,
ready and willing to help with anything.
There are without a doubt others in that crowd who I wouldn't give the
time of day. But TK is most definitely not one of them!
I've seen him take time between presentations in Australia to answer
stuff for AskTom. That requires a spirit and professional dedication
that I can only respect!
> the peasant class who'll hang on their every word and defend them to
> the death (ala the replies to Geomancer's 'heretical' post).
you? :D
(don't bother, I left the place a while ago)
> Just don't get me started on the elitist Oak Table crowd of the
> annual 'love-in' known as Open World. ;-)
And I have a great problem with a group of "experts" of which only a few
actually profess that tag and produce ANY output.
The rest are just in for the ride.
Mladen Gogala
have. So did the books from Jonathan Lewis. That means that both Tom and
Jonathan know more than me. I don't idolize anybody. I don't want to be
like Tom or Jonathan, I have my own ways and values in life.
Judging Tom Kyte, Jonathan Lewis or Cary Millsap based on personality is
utterly foolish. Why would I care about that? I am not Tom's wife and I
don't live with him. I am only grateful for the knowledge he provides in
his books and texts.
The years when I wanted to be someone else, typically Superman or
Spiderman, are long behind me. And, condescending answers are warranted
for stupid questions.
--
Mladen Gogala
The Oracle Whisperer
http://mgogala.byethost5.com
Je suis Charlie
richard...@ieee.org
I have been reading papers by many of the people mentioned and I only accept those providing sound evidence and reasoning. Tom Kyte invariable provides and insists on a script that sets up the test case and executes the verifying test (and usually releases any memory allocated).
"Don't accept authority simply because it comes from some great man or is written in a sacred book." - The Buddha
Noons
> Every time I hear someone say "I have been working in this field for
> 30 years" or "I have two post graduate degrees from Harvard in this
> field.", I immediately feel assured that they do not have a sound
> case and if I examine it closely, I'm going to be able to cut it to
> pieces.
ignored" at any cost I recognize a con artist using aggression and
supposedly extended knowledge to attack and climb quickly some sort of
social stair that doesn't really exist.
Ah well... Like, I care?
Mladen Gogala
"I have been working in this field for 30 years" or "I have two post
> graduate degrees from Harvard in this field.", I immediately feel
> assured that they do not have a sound case and if I examine it closely,
> I'm going to be able to cut it to pieces.
degree from Harvard, he or she is likely very knowledgeable and trained
in the art of logical thinking. I am very reluctant to discard someone
who had to poses such traits in order to achieve a post graduate degree
from Harvard. The same goes for experience. If someone has survived in
the cut-throat field of IT for 30 years, there is a reason for that.
> Particularly despicable is the argumentum ad verecundiam, the
> argument that one's position is correct because one's opponent lacks
> credibility,
authority. Argumentum ad verecundiam would be if I claimed that I am
right because Tom Kyte agrees with me. That would be wrong. I am right
because Jonathan Lewis agrees with me.
> their position is therefore incorrect and thus one's position be
> correct. I will not delve into inductive reasoning but it is
> essentially the same sort of fallacious reasoning.
>
> I have been reading papers by many of the people mentioned and I
> only accept those providing sound evidence and reasoning. Tom Kyte
> invariable provides and insists on a script that sets up the test case
> and executes the verifying test (and usually releases any memory
proves his statements.
>
> "Don't accept authority simply because it comes from some great man or
> is written in a sacred book." - The Buddha
kind word alone.
Al Capone
Mark D Powell
richard...@ieee.org
> degree from Harvard, he or she is likely very knowledgeable and trained
> in the art of logical thinking. I am very reluctant to discard someone
> who had to poses such traits in order to achieve a post graduate degree
> from Harvard. The same goes for experience. If someone has survived in
> the cut-throat field of IT for 30 years, there is a reason for that.
> Actually, argumentum ad verecundiam is also known as the appeal to
> authority. Argumentum ad verecundiam would be if I claimed that I am
> right because Tom Kyte agrees with me. That would be wrong. I am right
> because Jonathan Lewis agrees with me.
>
You are correct in that the term is frequently used in the sense you describe. Dictionaries and grammars are descriptive not normative. Therefore I don't want to lean too hard on Latin sources and legal usage, but the term is, after all, in Latin, a "fossilized" language.
As you don't want to delve into inductive reasoning, I'll briefly say that these terms are usually used there in a counter-argument to an appeal to a source outside the domain of their authority.
Given the repeated defeats of stock market experts at the hands of gorillas throwing darts and infants with crayons, thousands (close to 10,000 I believe) of criminal cases now being re-tried following the revelation of the failure of "experts" from the FBI crime lab and the deaths of infants and children caused by falsified and erroneous research by respected experts being believed and children therefore not vaccinated for measles and other childhood diseases, I prefer to look at the argument or the research rather than the source.
Mladen Gogala
>> Why would you want to cut it to pieces? If someone has a post graduate
>> degree from Harvard, he or she is likely very knowledgeable and
>> trained in the art of logical thinking. I am very reluctant to discard
>> someone who had to poses such traits in order to achieve a post
>> graduate degree from Harvard. The same goes for experience. If someone
>> has survived in the cut-throat field of IT for 30 years, there is a
>> reason for that.
>
> When someone feels the need to assert their qualifications in the course
> of an argument (philosophical) I suspect that they feel the need to do
> so because they do not feel their argument will be accepted without it.
instance, Heidelberg. For those who may not know, Heidelberg is German
equivalent of Harvard. I cannot recollect even a single case in which
these people would try to assert their opinion, based on their academic
achievements. They wouldn't finish the schools they have finished, had
they not been able to prove their statements. After all, my son was a
guest student on MIT and he's defending his Phd thesis in molecular
biology next week on a very famous German university (LMU). He has also
published two articles in the prestigious "Nature" magazine. Trust me, I
have a lot of practice arguing with a guy who came through excellent
schools and who cannot invoke his academic achievements as an argument.
Nevertheless, I lose the argument frequently. Such schools do prepare you
to stand your ground without argumentum ad verecundiam or argumentum ad
hominem.
> For that reason I examine their argument more closely and if I find
> fault, I present my findings of fault, counter-argument or whatever.
degree. As such, I am fairly well trained to prove all my statements and
punch a hole in the opponents argument, if at all possible. Proofs are
not personal. A square plus B square equals C square, if the (A,B,C) is
is a triangle with 90 degrees angle between A and B, regardless of what
you may think of me or my education. I find it very useful to take "me"
out of the proof. Process of proving is highly impersonal. People who
came out of a good school and are trained in logical thinking know that.
> Perhaps the "cutting it to pieces" is harsh but I not only expect or
> even want but crave finding of fault should it exist in any argument I
> present. That is what science is. I present my case and ask others to
> show me any failings so that I may correct or discard my hypothesis.
dislike people who came out of a good school for some reason.
>
>> Actually, argumentum ad verecundiam is also known as the appeal to
>> authority. Argumentum ad verecundiam would be if I claimed that I am
>> right because Tom Kyte agrees with me. That would be wrong. I am right
>> because Jonathan Lewis agrees with me.
>>
>>
> There are two "types" of argument from authority: argumentum ab
> auctoritate is the appeal to authority where an assertion is deemed true
> because of the authority of the person asserting. "argumentum ad
> verecundiam" is better translated from Latin as "argument to respect".
> This term is defined by a legal dictionary as "An argument addressed to
> the sense of decency". This is an alternative translation of the term.
> This is an appeal not to the likelihood of the veracity of the source
> but rather availing itself of respect for "great men, ancient customs,
> recognized institutions, and authority in general" in order to
> strengthen one's point or to produce an illusion of proof. In modern
> usage it is often intended to "shame" the reader away from believing
> otherwise.
>
> You are correct in that the term is frequently used in the sense you
> describe. Dictionaries and grammars are descriptive not normative.
> Therefore I don't want to lean too hard on Latin sources and legal
> usage, but the term is, after all, in Latin, a "fossilized" language.
Or, to translate to English, whatever is in Latin, sounds profound. There
is also a story about a son of a Roman centurion in Jerusalem who wanted
to write "Romans go home", and the result read "Romanes eunt domus". But
that's another story. And inappropriate for the time of Lent.
richard...@ieee.org
Let's drop this discussion Mladen. It has become personal and I like and respect you. Your religious reference is appropriate in a way. Despite being a Buddhist and having made a pilgrimage to follow the life of the Buddha more than once, I have also travelled to Assisi as a pilgrimage to the home of a Christian I respect very much. I am not a person of virtue greater than anyone. In Christian terms, we're all guilty, we're all forgiven and we're all making restitution. I apologize if I have offended you or anyone. I got into the habit of philosophical debate after taking at least 6 Philosophy courses as an undergrad and a couple after. I remember being in therapy at the time and my psychiatrist was in two of my classes (Nietzsche and a Sartre/Camus class of some sort). Our arguments did closely resemble fencing at times. I have been in therapy a few times since and have encountered therapists who, despite their education, misquoted or misunderstood sources they cited. Sorry about that. I'll flagellate myself a few times for that one.
Incidentally, on the day of the 9/11 tragedy in 2001, I was in a conference on very Large databases in the Vatican. And as long as I'm on the topic of trivia, Einstein's birthday this year, March 14, is also pi, 3/14/15 - 3.1415.
With due respect Mladen.
