Another oracle resource goes down the drain
Mladen Gogala
active on the oracle list (orac...@freelists.org). Recently, however,
oracle-l was swamped by the people who thought it to be either a
free online manual or an ego boosting tool.
Steve Adams, who some might remember as a writer of on Oracle 8i
internals book long time ago allowed that to become extremely boring
place on which political correctness is more important then oracle.
He wrote me, the following:
"Hi Mladen,
I regard your response to Mark Brady to be a flame, unprofessional and
offensive. I have therefore suspended your posting privilege. I had not
yet seen that when I sent the previous note.
Yes it is right to contradict obviously incorrect and harmful advice, but
you will need to learn to do so without making personal remarks.
Regarding the migratepv question, it was clearly not a joke. The author
is clueless and needs help. Your having fun at his expense does not
qualify as help. It is just offensive."
Mark Brady is an idiot who advised a guy complaining about a problem with
"re-creating temporary table within PL/SQL procedure" to create a DDL
trigger. Now, we have all seen a lot of guys trying to make Oracle behave
like SQL server and the only real advice is to re-engineer the
application. I asked Brady why does he feel qualified to dispense advice
when he obviously knows not what he's doing and that has earned me a
suspension from the list.
The list is obsolete, the stars of the list, like Jonathan Lewis and Kevin
Closson haven't been seen there for a long time, now spending the majority
of the time on their own blogs. In the era of blogs, oracle-l became
obsolete and unnecessary, just like Steve's book or his Ixora site, still
mostly about 8i. The line was crossed when he sided with the guy who has
obviously dispensed an incorrect advice in the name of political
correctness.
The list was obsoleted by blogs of the main contributors and Steve was
obsoleted by life. That is not only a sad end of a once great resource,
it is also a sad end of a once good oracle professional who turned into
a patronizing prick of a "moral majority" type. He doesn't do any notable
Oracle work any more, his site and his book are obsolete, but he does
enforce his understanding of good behavior.
BTW, for all those interested, the "migratepv" guy had a question "has
anyone used migratepv to migrate things outside of oracle". Migratepv
is an AIX LVM command which migrates physical volume to another
destination(s), very useful when migrating things to another place within
SAN or to another SAN. My reply was "what is outside oracle" and "are we
alone"?
For better or for worse, I've finally had it with the oracle-l, the list
which prefers political correctness over interesting technology and I will
now mostly reside on this forum.
gazzag
On 5 Apr, 13:39, Mladen Gogala <mgogala.SPAM_ME....@verizon.net>
wrote:
> I was not overly active on this forum, traditionally I was more
> active on the oracle list (oracl...@freelists.org). Recently, however,
> oracle-l was swamped by the people who thought it to be either a
> free online manual or an ego boosting tool.
> Steve Adams, who some might remember as a writer of on Oracle 8i
> internals book long time ago allowed that to become extremely boring
> place on which political correctness is more important then oracle.
> He wrote me, the following:
> "Hi Mladen,
>
> I regard your response to Mark Brady to be a flame, unprofessional and
> offensive. I have therefore suspended your posting privilege. I had not
> yet seen that when I sent the previous note.
[deletia]
May we see what you actually posted?
> For better or for worse, I've finally had it with the oracle-l, the list
> which prefers political correctness over interesting technology and I will
> now mostly reside on this forum.
>
I am hoping that their loss will eventually become our gain ;-)
-g
Mladen Gogala
> May we see what you actually posted?
Sure. Here it is, unchanged:
From: Mladen Gogala [mailto:mgo...@verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:54 PM
To: Brady, Mark
Cc: oracle-l
Subject: Re: Global (and local) Temporary Tables & PL/SQL
On 04/04/2007 02:07:25 PM, Brady, Mark wrote:
> Could you add a DDL trigger on before alter of that package to check
> existence of the table and create it if missing? The package will
still
> go invalid but compile the first time.
>
If I was a believer, this would be the right time to say "oh my God"!
PL/SQL is a procedural language, not meant to be used for DDL. This
application should be completely re-engineered. How can people abuse
a decent, non-suspecting relational database like that? It's people like
you that make a good and honest DBA like me support torture. Developers
doing this kind of crap should be shipped to Guantanamo and taught by
water boarding that PL/SQL should operate on an existing schema and
permanent objects, already in the schema. Oracle has local temporary
tables. They're called "REF cursors" An attempt to emulate the SQL Server
behavior is not only a sign of terminal stupidity, it will create a
horrible application that will invalidate dependent procedure and itself,
create dictionary and parsing locks, cause checkpoints and waste CPU on
reparsing. What you need in that picture is RAC for the joy to be
complete. Oracle is not a SQL server and one should never make it behave
like that. That is how suboptimal applications are created. The next step
is that CIO comes to the DBA and tells him that the "database is slow" at
which point the DBA quits or grabs the nearest blunt object.
One personal question: what makes you think that you're qualified to
dispense such advice? If today was April the 1st, I'd go with the flow,
but this is just completely outrageous.
I hope that the two of us will never work together.
--
Mladen Gogala
http://www.mladen-gogala.com
DA Morgan
Well I think waterboarding is a bit over the top. Perhaps we could just
suspend their keyboard privileges for 60 days and make them read docs
for rehabilitation.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damo...@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org
michael...@hotmail.com
Was it necessary for the personal attack on Steve Adams?
I remember reading your name on Tom Kyte's blog about oracle-l and the
quality of the people that post there. Your name on that blog meant
that you were a valued member of the oracle community.
Don't you think your actions take away from your oracle reputation?
Mladen Gogala
> Kevin Closson posts daily on oracle-l.
Mostly pointers to his blog.
> Was it necessary for the personal attack on Steve Adams?
Why does everybody get so excited about poor, ol' Stevo? In my
opinion he did more damage then Don Burleson by posting few inaccurate
articles and everybody got excited, called him dinosaur, senile etc.
Steve Adams turned one of the most useful resources in the Oracle world
into a boring source of useless spam by enforcing "moral majority"
philosophy and "politically correct" behavior. I haven't read a useful
article there for months and it was pummping daily kilobytes into my
mailbox. The truth is, with all these blogs around (Kevin, Jonathan,
Tom), I have no time for
- A lady asking how to expire passwords on the list, of course
too proud to look into manuals. That's for geeks, not for ladies.
- A clueless guy who wants to know something about AIX "migratepv"
command and Oracle but is not really sure what he wants or how to
ask that. He is on the way to destruction and wants to make his time
on the list. Of course, all his base are belong to us.
- A guy dispensing harmful advice which is supposed to convert an Oracle
RDBMS into SQL Server on steroids. The advice is really about shooting
oneselfe in a foot. I was thrown out for telling the idiot who was
dispensing such "advice" that he is in no way qualified to offer
his "words of wisdom" to anybody. I should have done it in the polite
way and the old Stevo, the list's mom, suspended me for behaving badly.
- Many other stupid questions thar reveal not only ignorance but also
insulting mental laziness.
So, I decided to go out with a bang and to go after a guy who has ruined
one of the most valuable resources in the oracle world.
> I remember reading your name on Tom Kyte's blog
> about oracle-l and the quality of the people that post there. Your name
> on that blog meant that you were a valued member of the oracle
> community. Don't you think your actions take away from your oracle
> reputation?
I make or break my reputation by showing knowledge in the appropriate
areas when and where that is necessary. I don't think that a beef with
a guy who ruined a very good list would harm my reputation just because
he wrote an internals book once upon a time. Oracle8i is no more, even
his web page is inaccurate and obsolete and he's doing a great disservice
to the Oracle community by enforcing his vision of political correctness.
The facts are:
1) This used to be a very useful list, with experst posting on it
frequently.
2) This list is now all but useless. I posted and advice here and there
but mostly, I was ignoring 99% of the traffic.
3) He was the list moderator in the sad period during which experts
stopped giving the tone to the list and morons started to dominate the
list. To his credit, he made sure that morons were behaving politely.
He is directly responsible for ruining the list. He hasn't posted
anything useful on the list or elsewhere in a long time. Let's face
it: he used to be an Oracle professional, now he's just a PHB. He is
like a good mom, making sure that the children are playing nicely. Of
course, I don't need a mom and I don't need idiots spamming me. If people
were so up in arms about the harmless, old Don Burleson, why such fuss
about actually much more destructive Steve Adams whose incompetency was
felt by many more people then the few inaccurate information posted by
Burleson? Is that Oedipus complex, people seeing a father figure, telling
them off if they're not playing nice?
I am aware that I can't do much about it. I am considering starting my
own list, but I am not sure about that. So far, I am thinking about
collecting tidbits from oracle-l and posting them on this forum or
elsewhere in sort of "shark tank" or "BOFH" format either here or on
my blog, which I have first to create.
--
http://www.mladen-gogala.com
pdxk...@gmail.com
I know for certain I didn't post on Monday April 2nd 'cause I was in
meetings all day at Oracle HQ...
:-) (smiley face)
I don't think personal attacks are right, ever. I get my share of
them. As for oracle-l, however, I do dislike the fact that it has
morped into a non-stop series of questions that should be fired off at
an Oracle Support tech in their first-line support organization.
Posters on that list pay a LOT of money to Oracle for support but
don't use it. Now that fact alone would be an interesting thread.
Or is it that there are thousands of people that have free downloads
and are running in production without paying for support? Ponder that
for a moment. If it weren't for the free downloads, the list might
look a lot different.
joel garry
I get the oracle-l digest daily, the only reason I don't keep up with
it is because the email-type of formatting is just a pain to read. I
don't think it is as bad as Mladen says, but I can certainly
understand his PC criticisms. I don't know about other parts of the
world, but where I am I can't help but take a dim view of anyone who
proselytizes in technical fora even if just in a .sig file. This is
simply because I have been exposed personally to too many nutcases
(including losing relatives to cults - and hey, I'm in California!).
I make an effort not to put down people for their beliefs, since the
relation between those people and the nutcases probably doesn't exist
other than in name, though it can be hard (especially after seeing
that South Park about Easter :-) .
And as for Mladen's comment about blogs - just because there are a few
good ones doesn't mean there aren't any bad ones and many overly-
derivative ones. Aggregators put them all together, so how would one
evaluate or keep up the quality? And as we've recently seen, a bit
too much passion can blow them off without warning, perhaps much worse
than typical usenet flamewars.
Mladen, as I've said before, _I_ think you are funny as hell, but you
need to remember this medium has issues with the lack of cues
regarding emotional expression. I hope you stick around, and make
some attempt not to be too cruel (at least publicly). We all want to
keep the quality up, but we don't want to exclude newbies, either. Of
course people will ask silly FAQ's over and over again, we can just
point them at the answers. Some _will_ grow into professionals. Of
course people will give stupid advice, the power of this medium is
it's self-correcting capability. Please don't depower it by scaring
off the clued with the clueless.
jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/show/display_episode.php?season=11&id1=1105&id2=162
Mladen Gogala
"In the Oracle documentation, it indicates that the only parameter needed
for enabling share servers is to set the ‘SHARED_SERVERS’ parameter to a
non zero value. If the ‘DISPATCHERS’ parameter is neglected, Oracle will
instantiate 1 dispatcher by default to handle shared server traffic.
My SHARED_SERVER parameter is set to ‘2’ and my DISPATCHERS parameter is
set to “(protocol=TCP)”. Nonetheless, I cannot connect to the server
with anything but dedicated connections (verified by querying the v
$sessions view).
I have nothing in my sqlnet.ora file or my tnsnames.ora file that would
force a dedicated connection to the server."
Of course, he doesn't specify version or which documentation did he look
into. I surmised it was "My Pet Goat", also read by other great minds in
the critical situations. He didnt even bother to look for the default
value of the "dispatchers" parameter (the one having "XDB" in the service
name). Had he done that, he would have noticed that there is this little
thing called "service" in the dispatcher string. Activating trace or
investigating the problem would be beneath him, he opened "My Pet Goat",
found no solution and went to the list. Of course, there will be an army
of "experts" telling him to "do tnsping". I bet nobody will bother asking
him what does he need shared servers for, in the first place. All books,
Tom Kyte's among others, tell people that MTS is just for the special
situations. Do you really think that wasting time on the presidential
material, like the author of the pearl above is worth remaining on the
list? Steve Adams prefers guys like that on the list over me, thus
ruining the list, at least for me. The title of this brilliant post is
"Shared Server" and can easily be inspected by visiting
www.freelists.org.
Mladen Gogala
> On Apr 5, 10:22 am, michaelnorb...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Kevin Closson posts daily on oracle-l. Was it necessary for the
>> personal attack on Steve Adams? I remember reading your name on Tom
>> Kyte's blog about oracle-l and the quality of the people that post
>> there. Your name on that blog meant that you were a valued member of
>> the oracle community. Don't you think your actions take away from your
>> oracle reputation?
>
> I know for certain I didn't post on Monday April 2nd 'cause I was in
> meetings all day at Oracle HQ...
>
> :-) (smiley face)
I started to miss you already.
>
> I don't think personal attacks are right, ever. I get my share of them.
Actually, there is a fine line between personal attack and criticism. I
don't think that this line has been crossed in my case, but Steve is
is the final judge. I couldn't care less, the list is useless anyway.
> As for oracle-l, however, I do dislike the fact that it has morped into
> a non-stop series of questions that should be fired off at an Oracle
> Support tech in their first-line support organization. Posters on that
> list pay a LOT of money to Oracle for support but don't use it. Now that
> fact alone would be an interesting thread.
Unfortunately, it is not on oracle-l, where the iron hand of moral
majority rules, it is here, on an unmoderated forum.
>
> Or is it that there are thousands of people that have free downloads and
> are running in production without paying for support? Ponder that for a
> moment. If it weren't for the free downloads, the list might look a lot
> different.
You, as usual, are right. That is why I keep reading your blog.
Gints Plivna
wrote:
> I was not overly active on this forum, traditionally I was more
I've enjoyed quite many of your posts and also learned from a few of
them mostly because my area of interests is a bit different from
yours. BUT these mails were neither funny nor informative, just
personal attack.
I'm quite sure none has born with built in Oracle knowledge in his
brains. All we have learned and all we were newbies. Yes there are
people that for every new question immediately sends out mail to a
list/forum/whatever, there are people that digs up info themselves. If
you don't like them you can always just press delete button or reply
some (possibly funny as you were usually able to do) RTFM asking next
time to read some docs before. BTW if you like to get many real RTFM
questions then you can go to forums.oracle.com and see what are really
boring questions repeating over and over again.
Also have you considered a thought that since you joined the oracle-l
list (at fatcity or before then? cannot remember the listserver
name :) probably you have learnt a lot more but there are many people
that are either younger or learns a lot slower?
> place on which political correctness is more important then oracle.
PC is boring I agree, but personal attacks are at least as boring as
PC
> He wrote me, the following:
> "Hi Mladen,
Have you thought about the fact that private messages usually are not
posted in public?
> For better or for worse, I've finally had it with the oracle-l, the list
> which prefers political correctness over interesting technology and I will
> now mostly reside on this forum.
Yeahh if you are abused by stupid duhvelopers at work (yes I know
them!) and/or get bad mood somehow differently no need to make it
sooooooo public.
Just my thoughts....
Gints Plivna
http://www.gplivna.eu
joel garry
wrote:
>
> I am aware that I can't do much about it. I am considering starting my
> own list, but I am not sure about that. So far, I am thinking about
> collecting tidbits from oracle-l and posting them on this forum or
> elsewhere in sort of "shark tank" or "BOFH" format either here or on
> my blog, which I have first to create.
> --http://www.mladen-gogala.com
Hey, http://groups.google.com/group/Oracle-Server/browse_thread/thread/60e0c6b00539b48d?hl=en
could use some traffic :-) I appreciate both BOFH and shark tank.
At one point I asked steve if I could forward oracle-l to it, but of
course he said no.
jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
.sig on pesach.
hpuxrac
wrote:
> I was not overly active on this forum, traditionally I was more
An ego boosting tool? At least we don't have any people on cdos like
that.
I never took the time to subscribe to oracle list but maybe this is a
wake up call.
I think all of the "user supplied" support forums are struggling with
a lot of people that ask questions without taking any time to research
already supplied answers.
Does that reflect more on the quality of paid for oracle support or
the availability of free fully functional downloads from oracle or
some interaction of the two factors? ( Well I have some more opinions
on oracle support ... perhaps aggravated what I see in certain
platform specific bugs that don't get fixed or come back again and
again ... ).
I guess the question for you that I have is are you committed to
actively trying to help people on cdos now or do you just want to be
able to complain about stupid questions?
There's always the choice of "scrolling on by".
I usually try to keep a good attitude only sometimes aggravated by the
posturing.
Why don't you take a look at the past 20 or so items you have put out
here on cdos. Are most of these conributions in the spirit that you
intend to move forward with here?
Mladen Gogala
> Why don't you take a look at the past 20 or so items you have put out
> here on cdos.
I am too lazy for that.
> Are most of these conributions in the spirit that you
> intend to move forward with here?
And why do you want to know?
Mladen Gogala
> Yeahh if you are abused by stupid duhvelopers at work (yes I know them!)
> and/or get bad mood somehow differently no need to make it sooooooo
> public.
>
> Just my thoughts....
Gints, please take your thoughts, your pop-psychology and your
patronizing attitude and shove them where the sun doesn't shine. This
moralizing attitude is precisely what made oracle-l useless, in addition
to the prickly moderator enforcing it. Blessed are the Greeks. Blessed
are the cheesemakers. That also refers to the all producers of the dairy
products. Now, let's go and stone some duhvelopers.
PS:
I've already thumbed my nose at the oracle-l. Idiotic posts like this
will only make me show some other fingers, too. I am 46 years old and
will tolerate nobody's attempts, short of Agnelina Jolie's, to behave
like my mom. Even for Angelina, the package includes breastfeeding.
For your information:
- I wasn't responding to a question, I was scolding an idiot dispensing
incorrect and harmful advice. Your "poor newbies" message is misplaced
and besides the point, as is the rest of your moralizing stuff.
- Steve sent me an official email notifying me that I am no longer a
member, which means that there is no expectation of privacy. Only
an idiot could ask me to assume privacy of such an email.
Noons
>
> Well I think waterboarding is a bit over the top. Perhaps we could just
> suspend their keyboard privileges for 60 days and make them read docs
> for rehabilitation.
The rack, Daniel. The rack!
:-)
Noons
wrote:
>
> > As for oracle-l, however, I do dislike the fact that it has morped into
> > a non-stop series of questions that should be fired off at an Oracle
> > Support tech in their first-line support organization. Posters on that
> > list pay a LOT of money to Oracle for support but don't use it. Now that
> > fact alone would be an interesting thread.
>
> Unfortunately, it is not on oracle-l, where the iron hand of moral
> majority rules, it is here, on an unmoderated forum.
>
Hmmmm, good points. Yes, somewhat frustrated
with the list as well. It feels like beginner's bog in there,
sometimes. Don't know I'd say it's Steve: been following
it for years and it's been a gradual decline, not just his
stewardship. Having said that, I also got suspended for
a week for missing a reply he sent me on an email address
I use only as spam bait. That, I considered at the time,
a bit over the top. But everyone is entitled to a bad call,
so I let it go.
So, here and the blogs is the good oil now, eh? :-)
Ah well, might have to subscribe to this group once
again: I got tired of the constant trolls by ignorant
arseholes sponsored by Oracle consulting and
other organisations.
Maybe Jgar has got it right: form a moderated newsgroup
in google, throw away anyone who trolls or gets
abusive and make it noted that beginner's questions
are not welcome.
Then we got the problem of defining "beginner".
Ah well, challenges!...
Which reminds me: came upon your mail to review
an article from last year! I must apologize profusely
and publicly for completely forgetting it. In my humble
defence, all I can say is that at the time I was under a
great stress workwise, which ultimately made me change
jobs. It's been a roller-coaster ride since then. Which
has taken away most of my free time!
But please rest assured my slack behaviour is not a
result of a snub on you: it's simply just plain old lack
of time.
Fuad
I do agree with you on some of the points for oracle-l.
it is becoming overly populated by oversimilistic question.
but i think that was what oracle-l was created for .to help people
with oracle issues.
i think the problem is and someone else pointed the same is too many
people not taking the time to read or do the research before they
actually post a question.
i've been guilty of that too . but with the proliferation of
questions . the quality of questions has been hit.
i get consultants all the time that try to tell me how to do my job
just by reading some off of a list or reading some authors book adn
saying hey that guy said that but not understanding the context of
that person's text.i personally believe we should help people with
their questions and then some.
and people need to understand that a question needs to have some
merit for someone to even answer it.
just my 2 cents.
Mladen Gogala
> On Apr 6, 5:11 am, Mladen Gogala <mgogala.SPAM-ME....@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> > As for oracle-l, however, I do dislike the fact that it has morped
>> > into a non-stop series of questions that should be fired off at an
>> > Oracle Support tech in their first-line support organization. Posters
>> > on that list pay a LOT of money to Oracle for support but don't use
>> > it. Now that fact alone would be an interesting thread.
>>
>> Unfortunately, it is not on oracle-l, where the iron hand of moral
>> majority rules, it is here, on an unmoderated forum.
>>
>>
> Hmmmm, good points. Yes, somewhat frustrated with the list as well. It
> feels like beginner's bog in there, sometimes. Don't know I'd say it's
> Steve: been following it for years and it's been a gradual decline, not
> just his stewardship.
I am aware of that. Jared didn't really want to moderate and he
handed the list to the first taker. Steve was it. On the other
hand, Steve enforces what he understands to be a good behavior
to the level that I find not only prickly but plain stupid. It
doesn't matter where did it start, he obviously has a totalitarian
streak which he doesn't use to enforce technological discipline or
level of posting but to enforce his own understanding of what the
world should really be like. I guess nobody expected an Australian
inquisition. Their two main weapons are surprise, ruthlessness and
almost fanatical devotion to the Pope. Their THREE.....
> Having said that, I also got suspended for a week
> for missing a reply he sent me on an email address I use only as spam
> bait. That, I considered at the time, a bit over the top. But everyone
> is entitled to a bad call, so I let it go.
Again, nobody expected Australian inquisition. I guess that is
what happens when one stops working as an engineer and becomes a
manager.
>
> So, here and the blogs is the good oil now, eh? :-) Ah well, might have
> to subscribe to this group once again: I got tired of the constant
> trolls by ignorant arseholes sponsored by Oracle consulting and other
> organisations.
I am leaning to the idea of organizing new mailing list. The idea
is to have a list on which oracle professionals would exchange
information.
>
> Maybe Jgar has got it right: form a moderated newsgroup in google, throw
> away anyone who trolls or gets abusive and make it noted that beginner's
> questions are not welcome.
>
> Then we got the problem of defining "beginner". Ah well, challenges!...
No, we do not. The concept is simplicity itself. You put in the preamble
that the list purpose is to exchange information between professionals.
Participants are expected to be professionals. If one dispenses advice
of the kind Mark Brady did on the oracle-l, he can be cautioned or
reprimanded by any established list member or a moderator. Protesting
too loudly about that would entail removal from the list. My goal is
to establish a new list. I hope that his list, under Larry, shall have a
new birth of freedom and that moderators of the geeks, by the geeks
shall not perish from the Internet.
>
> Which reminds me: came upon your mail to review an article from last
> year! I must apologize profusely and publicly for completely forgetting
> it. In my humble defence, all I can say is that at the time I was under
> a great stress workwise, which ultimately made me change jobs. It's
> been a roller-coaster ride since then. Which has taken away most of my
> free time!
>
> But please rest assured my slack behaviour is not a result of a snub on
> you: it's simply just plain old lack of time.
Noons, I know you for a long time. You're a good guy. I humbly apologize
for sending you a large email before clearing that with you in advance.
The mistake is all mine.
sybr...@hccnet.nl
wrote:
>I guess the question for you that I have is are you committed to
>actively trying to help people on cdos now or do you just want to be
>able to complain about stupid questions?
>
>There's always the choice of "scrolling on by".
Yeah, easy response. You probably are well aware most of these
questions will go unresponded. Mostly because there are very few
people answering the RTFM questions. You are usually not one of them.
It is one of the main reasons why Daniel Morgan and myself are getting
flamed over and over again, for not being able to hide irritation.
Yes there is always the choice of "scrolling by".
Easy response, and VERY irritating.
I would wish some of the regulars (of which you are obviously one)
step up the plate, and take their fair share of the burden.
--
Sybrand Bakker
Senior Oracle DBA
Mladen Gogala
> It is one of the main reasons why Daniel Morgan and myself are getting
> flamed over and over again, for not being able to hide irritation.
Personally, I am grateful for that and I will help the effort. Thanks to
you two, this group is much more readable and easier to follow then
oracle-l. All those who flamed you have probably gone to oracle-l. Good
riddance.
hpuxrac
> On 5 Apr 2007 16:09:08 -0700, "hpuxrac" <johnbhur...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I guess the question for you that I have is are you committed to
> >actively trying to help people on cdos now or do you just want to be
> >able to complain about stupid questions?
>
> >There's always the choice of "scrolling on by".
>
> Yeah, easy response. You probably are well aware most of these
> questions will go unresponded. Mostly because there are very few
> people answering the RTFM questions. You are usually not one of them.
Not sure exactly what you are trying to say. I do help out as time
permits often answering all sorts of questions.
When the questions need some scope and context and demonstrate a lack
of understanding of oracle concepts I tend to recommend
tahiti.oracle.com asktom.oracle.com and/or Tom Kyte/Cary Millsap's
books
> It is one of the main reasons why Daniel Morgan and myself are getting
> flamed over and over again, for not being able to hide irritation.
Nothing to do with any name calling?
> Yes there is always the choice of "scrolling by".
> Easy response, and VERY irritating.
Let someone else take it eventually if you don't feel like it. If it
goes without a reply so be it. Maybe the OP would research themselves
some more or include more available information to give people a
better base to respond from.
> I would wish some of the regulars (of which you are obviously one)
> step up the plate, and take their fair share of the burden.
Not sure what a "fair share" might be. Everyone probably has
different amounts of available time that vary widely day by day, week
by week, month by month.
DA Morgan
With 1U servers? <g>
Mladen Gogala
> Mladen,
> I do agree with you on some of the points for oracle-l. it is becoming
> overly populated by oversimilistic question. but i think that was what
> oracle-l was created for .to help people with oracle issues.
I don't think so. Oracle list was created as an information exchange
for people professionally working with Oracle RDBMS. I should know,
I was on the list much before Steve Adams.
Now, the only posts made oracle professionals are the ones peddling the
invitations for Hotsos dinners.
> i think the problem is and someone else pointed the same is too many
> people not taking the time to read or do the research before they
> actually post a question.
That is precisely the problem. Such attitude not only reflects mental
laziness, it is also insulting to the people doing their job and trying
to exchange something useful. One of the posts I snapped at was this:
*************************************************************************
DIANNA GIBBS <DIANNA...@childrens.com>
to oracle-l
show details
Apr 4 (3 days ago)
We need to set up a process where Oracle
users (currently few and mostly ODBC using Access) are notified
and can change their password dynamically every 90 days.
We were wondering what other companies do and any
best practices? Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
Thanks.
Dianna G.
*************************************************************
She got very insulted when I told her that other companies
have DBA personnel capable of reading manuals and finding "create
profile", a really new thing added in the version 7 of Oracle RDBMS.
She recently asked another stupid thing about the data format, so
laziness and ignorance are now actually preferred on the oracle-l.
They don't have a clue but they're polite and civil. If Adams was living
in the states, he would have been a loyal Bushie, term recently invented
by the rapping Rove.
> i've been guilty of that too . but with the proliferation of questions
> . the quality of questions has been hit.
Fuad, you're an old time member, together with Waleed Khedr, an excellent
guy who no longer participates there. It is not about you. You are the
one of the good guys.
> i get consultants all the time that try to tell me how to do my job
> just by reading some off of a list or reading some authors book adn
> saying hey that guy said that but not understanding the context of that
> person's text.i personally believe we should help people with their
> questions and then some.
That is why we have irony, sarcasm, ridicule and mockery. It usually
works just fine. Unfortunately, the list moderator no longer has a
career (the last modification of the IXORA site was in September 2001)
so he decided to ruin the list for the rest of us, who were trying
to get something useful from it. Here is the post detailing his
philosophy:
********************************************************************
Hi again Mladen,
This is just to clarify the situation. I have decided to suspended you
from posting on oracle-l for 4 months. If after that time you agree to
abide by the posting guidelines, and apologise to me and to the list
community, then I will enable posting from your accounts again.
So if you do by some miracle ever have a change of heart, feel free to
get back to me. Failing that, farewell. I wish you a very long life full
of true love and human kindness. (I mean that; no kidding).
******************************************************************
I didn't dignify that with an answer, I only asked him to stop spamming
me. He reads this forum and that is why he is babbling about the apology.
Of course, he doesn't have the courage to come out in the open and discuss
things on the equal terms, he is a little totalitarian playing God on
oracle-l. That is exactly why oracle-l has become such a boring and useless
forum. Nobody expected Ozzie inquisition and he singlehandedly ruined once
great list.
I will use his list as a trash bin. With the RTFM reply, the targeted party
on this forum will get the directions how to subscribe to
the oracle-l. Fortunately, this list has no administrator and I can
do whatever I believe is right. That way we will both be happy with the
oracle-l.
> and people need to understand that a question needs to have some merit
> for someone to even answer it.
> just my 2 cents.
The problem is in the volume. That list became one of the larger sources
of spam in my mailbox, without hardly ever being useful.
Mladen Gogala
> If it
> goes without a reply so be it.
No, no, I'll sacrifice myself. I've always loved Blackadder and I enjoy
practicing dry humor on the deserving humans. Even harmful medicines are
tested on humans. Humor is proven to be all natural, organically produced
and therefore good for you.
hpuxrac
wrote:
There's a difference between reasonable levels of sarcasm and being
insulting. When people that respond on cdos resort to name calling it
goes over the line.
Mladen Gogala
> When people that respond on cdos resort to name calling it goes over the
> line.
I don't resort to name calling, ever. My style is somewhat different. As
for the tolerable levels of sarcasm, go to Steve Adams list. Politeness
among human beings is all he cares about. Of course, the quality of that
list is also very low. Dan and Sybrand have done a marvelous job on this
list, which makes this list much better.
epok...@excite.com
"This application should be completely re-engineered."
"An attempt to emulate the SQL Server behavior is not only a sign of
terminal stupidity, it will create a horrible application that will
invalidate dependent procedure and itself, create dictionary and
parsing locks, cause checkpoints and waste CPU on
reparsing."
"Oracle is not a SQL server and one should never make it behave
like that. That is how suboptimal applications are created." (kind of
like one of our applications that we have running here - it IS
horribly suboptimal; designed in a hurry by a SQL*Server "wizard" who
eventually quit)
Sometimes the truth hurts. One must learn to deal with it.
Regards,
Eugene Pokopac (Oracle DBA - GSFA - Tucker, GA)
Fuzzy
wrote:
> I was not overly active on this forum, traditionally I was more
> active on the oracle list (oracl...@freelists.org). Recently, however,
Welcome back Mladen. I'd missed the virtiolic diatribes.
/Hans