What do Oracle professionals think of Fabian Pascal?
flag
Messages 31 - 40 of 49 - Collapse all
/groups/adfetch?hl=en&adid=HCBaBBAAAADlCwdy9nmSHgO073UnwUfz
The group you are posting to is a Usenet group. Messages posted to this group will make your email address visible to anyone on the Internet.
Your reply message has not been sent.
Your post was successful
 
From:
To:
Cc:
Followup To:
Add Cc | Add Followup-to | Edit Subject
Subject:
Validation:
For verification purposes please type the characters you see in the picture below or the numbers you hear by clicking the accessibility icon. Listen and type the numbers you hear
 
31.  joel-ga...@home.com  
View profile  
 More options Sep 27 2005, 7:12 pm
Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.misc
From: joel-ga...@home.com
Date: 27 Sep 2005 16:12:44 -0700
Local: Tues, Sep 27 2005 7:12 pm
Subject: Re: What do Oracle professionals think of Fabian Pascal?
I managed to not say anything about it when Fabian posted
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf on hjr's
clippity-clop blog, but I can no longer resist.

Someone needs to work on humor, grammar and logic!

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
Omigod:  http://dba-oracle.blogspot.com


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
32.  keyboa...@yahoo.com  
View profile  
 More options Sep 27 2005, 8:26 pm
Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.misc
From: keyboa...@yahoo.com
Date: 27 Sep 2005 17:26:07 -0700
Local: Tues, Sep 27 2005 8:26 pm
Subject: Re: What do Oracle professionals think of Fabian Pascal?
Don't you know why, Mr. Pascal?  A funny exchange allows everyone to
have their opinion, have their say, and not be corrected.  Didn't you
know that opinions and good feelings were more important than...what's
that word people used to use..."facts"?  I mean, what can you do with a
fact?  You have to agree, shut up, or admit your ignorance...maybe even
do some research or something.  Ew! None of that feels good, does it.

You say RM is based on mathmatics.  Well, 2+2=4 is just an opinion, a
convention.  Didn't you read your Orwell?  *eyeroll* I used to think
the world would end up like 1984...then Huxley seemed to be onto
something.  I'd never imagined we'd have a hidious blend of both, the
destruction of reasoning by the force of society - voluntarily - while
everyone laughs as if Somatized.  Some in this bunch have made me think
twice.  

-keyboards


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
33.  DA Morgan  
View profile  
 More options Oct 4 2005, 1:27 pm
Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.misc
From: DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org>
Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:27:39 -0700
Local: Tues, Oct 4 2005 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: What do Oracle professionals think of Fabian Pascal?

fabian pascal wrote:
> It's quite telling -- and very predictable -- how quickly a discussion
> on data fundamentals is veered by people who don't know and don't care
> about fundamentals--read: the vast majority--to a "funny" exchange on
> hammers and wrenches. It's happened again and again online and it does
> quite a lot to validate my claims about the state of knowledge and
> intellect in the industry.

> It's only natural.

It is quite telling -- and very predictable -- how quickly someone
that is a purist and isn't focused on the bottom-line value to an
organization such as a business entity forgets that software is a
tool.

Do you criticize those that manufacture hammers because they
deviate from the original design?
--
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damor...@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
34.  steve  
View profile  
 More options Oct 6 2005, 7:15 pm
Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.misc
From: steve <st...@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 07:15:18 +0800
Local: Thurs, Oct 6 2005 7:15 pm
Subject: Re: What do Oracle professionals think of Fabian Pascal?
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 01:27:39 +0800, DA Morgan wrote
(in article <1128446853.42704@yasure>):

You mean that my  version .9a  rock  has an update?

    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
35.  joel-ga...@home.com  
View profile  
 More options Oct 7 2005, 5:15 pm
Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.misc
From: joel-ga...@home.com
Date: 7 Oct 2005 14:15:05 -0700
Local: Fri, Oct 7 2005 5:15 pm
Subject: Re: What do Oracle professionals think of Fabian Pascal?

>> Do you criticize those that manufacture hammers because they
>> deviate from the original design?
>You mean that my  version .9a  rock  has an update?

http://www.allhatnocattle.net/name_that_toon_august_2004.htm

    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
36.  striebs  
View profile  
 More options Sep 25 2005, 11:03 am
Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.misc
From: "striebs" <simon_strie...@ntlworld.com>
Date: 25 Sep 2005 08:03:48 -0700
Local: Sun, Sep 25 2005 11:03 am
Subject: Re: What do Oracle professionals think of Fabian Pascal?
Paul and others ,

Lets examine an example of Oracle extensions to SQL and commercially
expedient solutions for problems .

1) Extensions : eg ROWID and ROWNUM pseudo-columns

Rowid is a transient identifier of a row of a base table which as we
know happens to correspond to the address of the physical
representation of the row (storage).

So what do Oracle hope to achieve (other than performance) by exposing
an implementation detail from the physical data model through the
logical data model ?

In general to provide an even more convenient way to update or delete a
single row than having to specify  match conditions for all key columns
in the WHERE clause and specifically to facilitate a method for
updating absolutely identical rows (duplicates) .

eg consider a table with 2 identical rows which could arise because SQL
does not insist a table has a key (which is an RM (relational model)
requirement) . How can you update or delete 1 of those rows ?

UPDATE table_name SET col1=val1 WHERE .....  AND ROWNUM =1
UPDATE table_name SET col1=val1 WHERE ROWID = &VAR     /  WHERE CURRENT
OF CURSOR

Now here is the key point , is it better to provide extensions to allow
processing of individual duplicated rows or would it have been better
to outlaw duplicate rows by insisting each table has a key ?

The features which provide row level processing just do not incentivise
people to elevate their thinking to consider sets of data rather than
individual objects and this is holding data management back .

2) Constraint Support

Did you know that a constraint is any condition you can think of which
must evaluate to true (in binary logic) in order for an update of the
database to be plausible ?   (in SQL's inconsistent 3 valued logic it
must evaluate to NOT FALSE ) .

Is there anyone who has contributed to this thread who would not like
Oracle to support more constraints than it does and thinks Oracle
constraint support is adequate as it stands ?

Eg i) a declarative constraint to ensure each invoice must have at
least 1 line item (which can only be simulated with a constraint on a
materialised view which outer joins invoice_header and
invoice_line_item ) .
eg ii) to ensure that the key values of 3 tables are disjoint - ie a
key value is unique accross more than 1 table
eg iii) an exclusion constraint to match the FK inclusion constraint eg
to ensure that a key value does not exist in another table .

To my knowledge the only enhancement to constraints Oracle has made
since 7.3 is deferring checking to commit time .  I welcome this
expedient solution but through studying recognise that it is
problematic and have become aware that it is not even the only way DBMS
products could address the problem .

7.3 is about 13 years old , zoom forward to 2018 - how confident are
you that Oracle will have significantly enhanced it's constraint
support by then ?

3) Data-types and domain support

In Oracle User defined datatypes are difficult to define and use .

Wouldn't you like to be able to do rudimentary things simply like
define a datatype of country_code based on a built-in datatype such as
varchar2(2) and then add a column to a table as follows ADD
(nationality TYPE country_code NOT NULL) and be able to deal with it AS
CONVENIENTLY as if it has been defined as VARCHAR2(2) ?

To answer you original question I think that Fabian Pascal , Chris Date
, Hugh Darwen , David Mc Goveran are the first authors we need to read
in order to understand our subject .


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
37.  mikharakiri_nosp...@yahoo.com  
View profile  
 More options Sep 26 2005, 6:43 pm
Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.misc
From: mikharakiri_nosp...@yahoo.com
Date: 26 Sep 2005 15:43:23 -0700
Local: Mon, Sep 26 2005 6:43 pm
Subject: Re: What do Oracle professionals think of Fabian Pascal?

striebs wrote:
> 1) Extensions : eg ROWID and ROWNUM pseudo-columns

> Rowid is a transient identifier of a row of a base table which as we
> know happens to correspond to the address of the physical
> representation of the row (storage).

You are correct about ROWIDs, exposing them to the user achieves
nothing.

ROWNUM is a hack that predated analytical SQL extensions, and some of
these extensions do make sence for an end user. Otherwise, how do you
express the query

"list all the employees with their salary ranks"

?

> 2) Constraint Support
> Eg i) a declarative constraint to ensure each invoice must have at
> least 1 line item (which can only be simulated with a constraint on a
> materialised view which outer joins invoice_header and
> invoice_line_item ) .

Why "simulated"? This is pretty legitimate way to enforce complex
constraints (aka ANSI standard assertions). The method can be traced
back to the 80s when database recearch has been pretty much alive;
check out the papers on materialized view refresh.

Oracle materialized view support might have a lot to be desired, but
that's a different story.

> 7.3 is about 13 years old , zoom forward to 2018 - how confident are
> you that Oracle will have significantly enhanced it's constraint
> support by then ?

Constraint enhancements is not a top priority nowadays. Wake up: the
bleading edge of research and development is XML, Fusion, whatever.

> 3) Data-types and domain support

> In Oracle User defined datatypes are difficult to define and use .

> Wouldn't you like to be able to do rudimentary things simply like
> define a datatype of country_code based on a built-in datatype such as
> varchar2(2) and then add a column to a table as follows ADD
> (nationality TYPE country_code NOT NULL) and be able to deal with it AS
> CONVENIENTLY as if it has been defined as VARCHAR2(2) ?

> To answer you original question I think that Fabian Pascal , Chris Date
> , Hugh Darwen , David Mc Goveran are the first authors we need to read
> in order to understand our subject .

This is true to some extent, but may I suggest that there were a lot
more people who defined and shaped the database world as it exists
today.

    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
38.  runaror...@gmail.com  
View profile  
 More options Sep 29 2005, 7:14 pm
Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.misc
From: runaror...@gmail.com
Date: 29 Sep 2005 16:14:13 -0700
Local: Thurs, Sep 29 2005 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: What do Oracle professionals think of Fabian Pascal?
"may I suggest that there were a lot
more people who defined and shaped the database world as it exists
today"

To their neverending shame.


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
39.  DA Morgan  
View profile  
 More options Oct 4 2005, 1:32 pm
Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.misc
From: DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org>
Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:32:26 -0700
Local: Tues, Oct 4 2005 1:32 pm
Subject: Re: What do Oracle professionals think of Fabian Pascal?

> ROWNUM is a hack that predated analytical SQL extensions, and some of
> these extensions do make sence for an end user. Otherwise, how do you
> express the query

Without using ROWNUM please provide the equivalent to the following:

SELECT *
FROM t
WHERE rownum < 37;
--
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
damor...@x.washington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Discussion subject changed to "Rownum (was something else)" by mikharakiri_nosp...@yahoo.com
40.  mikharakiri_nosp...@yahoo.com  
View profile  
 More options Oct 4 2005, 2:15 pm
Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.misc
From: mikharakiri_nosp...@yahoo.com
Date: 4 Oct 2005 11:15:49 -0700
Local: Tues, Oct 4 2005 2:15 pm
Subject: Rownum (was something else)

DA Morgan wrote:
> > ROWNUM is a hack that predated analytical SQL extensions, and some of
> > these extensions do make sence for an end user. Otherwise, how do you
> > express the query

> Without using ROWNUM please provide the equivalent to the following:

> SELECT *
> FROM t
> WHERE rownum < 37;

select * from (
  select row_number() over (order by 0) rn
  from t
) where rn < 37

As far as performance concerned, there is no reason why it can't be the
same.

Note, that unlike rownum hack, it would also provide an answer with
negated predicate

where rn >= 37

and people would stop asking why rownum doesn't return any rows.

BTW, I'm not fan of analytics, but having two constructs in the
language doing the same thing is just messy.


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.

Create a group - Google Groups - Google Home - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy
©2009 Google