Resume fraud is at the highest levels that i've seen in the Atlanta area since I became a consultant in 1989 - particularly in the Oracle arena. I can only imagine what it's like in other major cities.
What should you do if your honest resume has you positioned as a strong Oracle professional, and noone is returning your calls ?
A. Send a letter to your Congressman to encourage companies to hire American ( no work visas) ,and also to local recruiting companies to recruit local candidates only - much like recruiting companies in Chicago and Cleveland are doing.
B. Be the first one out the box to apply for a posted job. Scour the consulting companies web sites before u waste your time with Dice, Monster, or even Computer jobs. I'll have to say that Computerjobs may be the least bitter of all those lemons. Net-Temps.com isn't bad et all.
C. Call - don't just send a resume
D. Try to follow up on who got the assignment and why u weren't considered, didn't get an interview, or even didn't get a call.
E. Take names - Consulting companies have forgotten what common courtesy means...Just a phone call or a return email to say that the position has been closed will do. The surprising thing about this is that in the past the no-responses were mom-and-pop operations, but now it's all of them ; Matrix, WebGroup, Maxim Group, ManPower, Technisource, and the list goes on...... When the market recovers, they'll be calling you, just don't be calling them back, or kindly remind them of when....... :-)
F. Pray that consulting companies have enough technical expertise to know a fraud. This is a very severe problem in this industry. I don't think the most qualified people get to be seen because of the volume of Fraudulent resumes; they get overlooked because they're not 1st or 2nd....10th etc...
G. Back to the old days. I remember that some 12/13 years ago, with only 5 years experience, even companies like Matrix and Romac wouldn't place me. They said I didn't have enough experience (7-10 years). I wasn't mad then but I'm mad now, that 3 years of experience buys you the right to get a consultant job. I think most of the consulting companies have decided to focus on the $$$$. Remember what your client wants isn't always what's good for you - as a consulting company u should know that.
H. Hope you know the recruiter you're working with...... Good luck in training them on IT concepts... Consulting outfits have had tremendous turnover lately.
I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this sounds outlandish and even racist, but I recall during an earlier recession while interviewing DBA applicants for a client, I'd received 100 resumes and less than 10% had names I could pronounce.
J. Don't apply if you're not "qualified". Experienced Consultants by nature are typically overqualified for the assignments they take.
K. Don't abuse the technical reference process. Don't have friends and coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from the ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......Wrong, they don't won't to know, particularly if they can get their client to $$$$$.
That's a lot of good advice; I've been in IT for 24 years and resume fraud was a problem when I was trying to staff two DBA jobs back in 1996. I've been having a devil of a time. And also have been wondering "Do native born Americans go into computer science anymore, or are they all studying Art History or something in college these days?" And I don't want to sound like a bigot, but the whole H1x program was to provide people "when no American with suitable skills could be found after reasonably diligent search", not "anybody that writes any old thing on their resume, may or may be qualified, but that you can get for really cheap and put Americans out of jobs because they cost too much".
Yeah, I could get a job if I'd work for $25 an hour (all inclusive).
And faked-up resumes from my own experience in hiring/staffing seem to be more frequent in H1 visa people, and the consulting firms often do little screening.
> Resume fraud is at the highest levels that i've seen in the Atlanta area > since I became a consultant in 1989 - particularly in the Oracle arena. I > can only imagine what it's like in other major cities.
> What should you do if your honest resume has you positioned as a strong > Oracle professional, and noone is returning your calls ?
> A. Send a letter to your Congressman to encourage companies to hire > American ( no work visas) ,and also to local recruiting companies to recruit > local candidates only - much like recruiting companies in Chicago and > Cleveland are doing.
> B. Be the first one out the box to apply for a posted job. Scour the > consulting companies web sites before u waste your time with Dice, Monster, > or even Computer jobs. I'll have to say that Computerjobs may be the least > bitter of all those lemons. Net-Temps.com isn't bad et all.
> C. Call - don't just send a resume
> D. Try to follow up on who got the assignment and why u weren't considered, > didn't get an interview, or even didn't get a call.
> E. Take names - Consulting companies have forgotten what common courtesy > means...Just a phone call or a return email to say that the position has > been closed will do. The surprising thing about this is that in the past the > no-responses were mom-and-pop operations, but now it's all of them ; Matrix, > WebGroup, Maxim Group, ManPower, Technisource, and the list goes on...... > When the market recovers, they'll be calling you, just don't be calling them > back, or kindly remind them of when....... :-)
> F. Pray that consulting companies have enough technical expertise to know a > fraud. This is a very severe problem in this industry. I don't think the > most qualified people get to be seen because of the volume of Fraudulent > resumes; they get overlooked because they're not 1st or 2nd....10th etc...
> G. Back to the old days. I remember that some 12/13 years ago, with only 5 > years experience, even companies like Matrix and Romac wouldn't place me. > They said I didn't have enough experience (7-10 years). I wasn't mad then > but I'm mad now, that 3 years of experience buys you the right to get a > consultant job. I think most of the consulting companies have decided to > focus on the $$$$. Remember what your client wants isn't always what's good > for you - as a consulting company u should know that.
> H. Hope you know the recruiter you're working with...... Good luck in > training them on IT concepts... Consulting outfits have had tremendous > turnover lately.
> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for > them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this > sounds outlandish and even racist, but I recall during an earlier recession > while interviewing DBA applicants for a client, I'd received 100 resumes and > less than 10% had names I could pronounce.
> J. Don't apply if you're not "qualified". Experienced Consultants by nature > are typically overqualified for the assignments they take.
> K. Don't abuse the technical reference process. Don't have friends and > coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from the > ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references > are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......Wrong, they don't won't to know, > particularly if they can get their client to $$$$$.
Anyone that hires based on a resume ... or references ... gets what they deserve.
To identify qualfied candidates an employer must put them to the test ... and I don't mean one of those stupid computer-based pieces of garbage. I mean at the whiteboard.
RSH wrote: > That's a lot of good advice; I've been in IT for 24 years and resume fraud > was a problem when I was trying to staff two DBA jobs back in 1996. I've > been having a devil of a time. And also have been wondering "Do native born > Americans go into computer science anymore, or are they all studying Art > History or something in college these days?" And I don't want to sound like > a bigot, but the whole H1x program was to provide people "when no American > with suitable skills could be found after reasonably diligent search", not > "anybody that writes any old thing on their resume, may or may be qualified, > but that you can get for really cheap and put Americans out of jobs because > they cost too much".
> Yeah, I could get a job if I'd work for $25 an hour (all inclusive).
> And faked-up resumes from my own experience in hiring/staffing seem to be > more frequent in H1 visa people, and the consulting firms often do little > screening.
> RSH.
> "EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > Resume fraud is at the highest levels that i've seen in the Atlanta area > > since I became a consultant in 1989 - particularly in the Oracle arena. I > > can only imagine what it's like in other major cities.
> > What should you do if your honest resume has you positioned as a strong > > Oracle professional, and noone is returning your calls ?
> > A. Send a letter to your Congressman to encourage companies to hire > > American ( no work visas) ,and also to local recruiting companies to > recruit > > local candidates only - much like recruiting companies in Chicago and > > Cleveland are doing.
> > B. Be the first one out the box to apply for a posted job. Scour the > > consulting companies web sites before u waste your time with Dice, > Monster, > > or even Computer jobs. I'll have to say that Computerjobs may be the least > > bitter of all those lemons. Net-Temps.com isn't bad et all.
> > C. Call - don't just send a resume
> > D. Try to follow up on who got the assignment and why u weren't > considered, > > didn't get an interview, or even didn't get a call.
> > E. Take names - Consulting companies have forgotten what common courtesy > > means...Just a phone call or a return email to say that the position has > > been closed will do. The surprising thing about this is that in the past > the > > no-responses were mom-and-pop operations, but now it's all of them ; > Matrix, > > WebGroup, Maxim Group, ManPower, Technisource, and the list goes on...... > > When the market recovers, they'll be calling you, just don't be calling > them > > back, or kindly remind them of when....... :-)
> > F. Pray that consulting companies have enough technical expertise to know > a > > fraud. This is a very severe problem in this industry. I don't think the > > most qualified people get to be seen because of the volume of Fraudulent > > resumes; they get overlooked because they're not 1st or 2nd....10th etc...
> > G. Back to the old days. I remember that some 12/13 years ago, with only 5 > > years experience, even companies like Matrix and Romac wouldn't place me. > > They said I didn't have enough experience (7-10 years). I wasn't mad then > > but I'm mad now, that 3 years of experience buys you the right to get a > > consultant job. I think most of the consulting companies have decided to > > focus on the $$$$. Remember what your client wants isn't always what's > good > > for you - as a consulting company u should know that.
> > H. Hope you know the recruiter you're working with...... Good luck in > > training them on IT concepts... Consulting outfits have had tremendous > > turnover lately.
> > I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > > resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for > > them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this > > sounds outlandish and even racist, but I recall during an earlier > recession > > while interviewing DBA applicants for a client, I'd received 100 resumes > and > > less than 10% had names I could pronounce.
> > J. Don't apply if you're not "qualified". Experienced Consultants by > nature > > are typically overqualified for the assignments they take.
> > K. Don't abuse the technical reference process. Don't have friends and > > coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from > the > > ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references > > are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......Wrong, they don't won't to know, > > particularly if they can get their client to $$$$$.
Wow... what a great thread... I've interviewed more people than I can count... I've had folks that claimed 10 years experience that *argued* with me about what rollback segments were... they had rollback segments and redo logs reversed, and when I tried to point out the error they argued with me... then there are the interviews where the canidate didn't know there was a difference. Then, there are those with lots of time experience, but they pad the skills that they have used. For example there was the guy with verifiable 8 years DBA experience at the same company, but he didn't have a clue about how to do hot backups. All they had ever done was cold backups... and then other problems surfaced during the interview.
Bottom line is that one does have to be careful who one hires.
RF Robert G. Freeman Author Oracle Press's Oracle9i New Features Sybex's Mastering Oracle9i Coriolis' Oracle8 to 8i Upgrade Exam Cram Coriolis' Oracle 7.3 to 8 Upgrade Exam Cram
> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for > them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this > sounds outlandish and even racist
Thats because it (especially when taken together with your comments about "our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your attitude in resumes and interviews is anything like you display in this post then you are unemployable.
-- Niall Litchfield Oracle DBA Audit Commission UK ***************************************** Please include version and platform and SQL where applicable It makes life easier and increases the likelihood of a good answer
>"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... >> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this >> sounds outlandish and even racist
>Thats because it (especially when taken together with your comments about >"our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your attitude in >resumes and interviews is anything like you display in this post then you >are unemployable.
>-- >Niall Litchfield >Oracle DBA >Audit Commission UK >***************************************** >Please include version and platform >and SQL where applicable >It makes life easier and increases the >likelihood of a good answer
Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to name( excepting maybe Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge potential employers,employees or your ability to get hired by reference to ethnic mix that is a racist attitude. end of story.
-- Niall Litchfield Oracle DBA Audit Commission UK ***************************************** Please include version and platform and SQL where applicable It makes life easier and increases the likelihood of a good answer
> Niall Litchfield wrote in message > <3c7a26f7$0$231$ed9e5...@reading.news.pipex.net>... > >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > >> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for > >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this > >> sounds outlandish and even racist
> >Thats because it (especially when taken together with your comments about > >"our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your attitude in > >resumes and interviews is anything like you display in this post then you > >are unemployable.
> >-- > >Niall Litchfield > >Oracle DBA > >Audit Commission UK > >***************************************** > >Please include version and platform > >and SQL where applicable > >It makes life easier and increases the > >likelihood of a good answer
Speaking as one who has interviewed many hundreds in the U.S. there is no question that fraud exists ... both with nationals and foreign nationals. And both with respect to resumes, references, and education.
My feeling about references can be summed up as follows: "Anyone that can't find three friends to lie for him or her is a pathetic soul. My feeling with respect to resumes and education claims doesn't deviate far from that mark.
The only way to choose candidates is by interview ... first phone ... then in person. And always with a whiteboard and a combination of prewritten and spontaneous questions testing everything from basic SQL skills on up. My favorite questions are the ones where the correct answer is "You can't do that in Oracle." They quickly weeds out the fakes.
Niall Litchfield wrote: > Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I > asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to name( excepting maybe > Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge potential > employers,employees or your ability to get hired by reference to ethnic mix > that is a racist attitude. end of story.
> -- > Niall Litchfield > Oracle DBA > Audit Commission UK > ***************************************** > Please include version and platform > and SQL where applicable > It makes life easier and increases the > likelihood of a good answer
> ****************************************** > "EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:a5dh4m$q5g$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net... > > Are you waiting for your green-card too ?
> > Niall Litchfield wrote in message > > <3c7a26f7$0$231$ed9e5...@reading.news.pipex.net>... > > >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > >> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > > >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive > for > > >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know > this > > >> sounds outlandish and even racist
> > >Thats because it (especially when taken together with your comments about > > >"our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your attitude in > > >resumes and interviews is anything like you display in this post then you > > >are unemployable.
> > >-- > > >Niall Litchfield > > >Oracle DBA > > >Audit Commission UK > > >***************************************** > > >Please include version and platform > > >and SQL where applicable > > >It makes life easier and increases the > > >likelihood of a good answer
Lookit, Niall, I needed to hire 2 (two) more DBAs to fill out the complement needed to have two DBAs on the AT&T side and two on the Lucent side when the split came in October 1, 1996.
(The fact that it needed 4 people to replace me was amusing; my own district manager said "Dammit, why don't both companies just contract you and even though you work 90 hours a week, it's cheaper than 4 people...")
I got over 200 resumes. 100 went in the trash. The other 100 got at least one phone screen from me.
The remaining 50 got another phone screen on a speaker phone in a conference room with: me, our best programmer (Vishnu, who happens to be from India, and for whom I was happy to testify under oath to help him get permanent residency, as I did many years ago for a CDC programmer from Hong Kong), and my only (other than myself) DBA at the time, H1 from Britain.
That narrowed it down to 10.
Those people we had in for nearly 4 hours each, for face to face, whiteboarding, interviews with me and my technical folks, and two AT&T managers.
Out of this, I got my two, both H1 visa types.
And guess what? I shouldn't have left out the sodium Pentothal and the polygraph tests, because in spite of all this, they were extremely substandard. Plus, their cultural values included treating women as dirt, which wasn't sitting at all well with our team across the street, nearly all of whom were Indian, and half of them women, and all very good. The one "DBA" who "was a C programmer" typed so slowly, I figured it would be a good week when he got a line of code out. He was the one that left his pager on his desk whenever he left the building. The other guy was worse.
I don't think it's being bigoted or discriminatory to simply make a factual statement that I got 200 resumes or more, 90% of them were H1/H1B people sponsored by their consulting firms / slavers; among the rejectees were the few Americans that were presented; and after what I think is diligence beyond the call of duty, I still ended up with unqualified people that were unsuitable and had ZERO people skills. I was absolutely color / ethnic/ sex / religion / everything else blind; 7 years of Diversity training makes that instinctive. I just wanted the best people; what I got was the best of a sorry lot.
But most of those resumes were massively falsified, as well, including as it turns out, those of the two I picked. That's not bigotry, those are real, factual numbers; last time I looked it up, deriving a percentage wasn't considered a discriminatory act under Federal law.
I should have looked at 1,000 people to fill those two slots, I guess, but I just didn't have time; maybe 20,000. Working 90 hours a week on splitting up one of the world's largest corporations didn't give me that kind of time.
I've been out of work for entirely too long. I guess I better figure out a better way to lie on my resume; 24 years of experience doesn't seem to cut it; how can I compete with people claiming to be senior, willing to work for 15-20% of what I make, and resumes falsified up the wazoo? My career and job prospects are sure shot to hell at the moment; who wouldn't hire someone for a10th of what I make if they look good on paper.
So go tell it to the Marines, Niall.
Britain has far stricter rules about immigrant hiring and visas and such, even if your spouse is British, so have a nice chat with your Uncle Tony all about it, and don't preach to people who are wondering how they are going to afford to live because a legal form of "migrant labor" has sucked up so many of our jobs. The dot bomb crash and the tech market slowdown does NOT explain this. $15/hr explains this.
RSH.
"damorgan" <dan.mor...@ci.seattle.wa.us> wrote in message
> Speaking as one who has interviewed many hundreds in the U.S. there is no > question that fraud exists ... both with nationals and foreign nationals. And > both with respect to resumes, references, and education.
> My feeling about references can be summed up as follows: "Anyone that can't find > three friends to lie for him or her is a pathetic soul. My feeling with respect > to resumes and education claims doesn't deviate far from that mark.
> The only way to choose candidates is by interview ... first phone ... then in > person. And always with a whiteboard and a combination of prewritten and > spontaneous questions testing everything from basic SQL skills on up. My > favorite questions are the ones where the correct answer is "You can't do that > in Oracle." They quickly weeds out the fakes.
> Daniel Morgan
> Niall Litchfield wrote:
> > Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I > > asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to name( excepting maybe > > Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge potential > > employers,employees or your ability to get hired by reference to ethnic mix > > that is a racist attitude. end of story.
> > -- > > Niall Litchfield > > Oracle DBA > > Audit Commission UK > > ***************************************** > > Please include version and platform > > and SQL where applicable > > It makes life easier and increases the > > likelihood of a good answer
> > ****************************************** > > "EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > news:a5dh4m$q5g$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net... > > > Are you waiting for your green-card too ?
> > > Niall Litchfield wrote in message > > > <3c7a26f7$0$231$ed9e5...@reading.news.pipex.net>... > > > >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > > >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > > >> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > > > >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive > > for > > > >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know > > this > > > >> sounds outlandish and even racist
> > > >Thats because it (especially when taken together with your comments about > > > >"our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your attitude in > > > >resumes and interviews is anything like you display in this post then you > > > >are unemployable.
> > > >-- > > > >Niall Litchfield > > > >Oracle DBA > > > >Audit Commission UK > > > >***************************************** > > > >Please include version and platform > > > >and SQL where applicable > > > >It makes life easier and increases the > > > >likelihood of a good answer
Looking for Americans first isn't being racist, it's the law, being studiously and flagrantly ignored by consulting companies and everyone else.
The H1/H1B act was to provide relief for employers who had diligently searched and could not find citizens with the skills and expertise required.
The exact wording (which I had to swear to under oath twice) includes a phrase like "skills, expertise, or education which are not available in US citizens to fill the required position, and therefore I swear and attest, under penalty of perjury, that (xxxx) is required in this position, having duly made every effort to find a qualified US citizen to perform the work described below....". I guess they must have changed that.
It must be "I swear and attest under penalty of perjury that we can pay this guy $10 an hour, and he'll do it."
Don't preach to me. I can't believe you can be so hypocritical given your own country's laws on this matter.
RSH.
"Niall Litchfield" <n-litchfi...@audit-commission.gov.uk> wrote in message
> Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I > asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to name( excepting maybe > Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge potential > employers,employees or your ability to get hired by reference to ethnic mix > that is a racist attitude. end of story.
> -- > Niall Litchfield > Oracle DBA > Audit Commission UK > ***************************************** > Please include version and platform > and SQL where applicable > It makes life easier and increases the > likelihood of a good answer
> ****************************************** > "EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:a5dh4m$q5g$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net... > > Are you waiting for your green-card too ?
> > Niall Litchfield wrote in message > > <3c7a26f7$0$231$ed9e5...@reading.news.pipex.net>... > > >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > >> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > > >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive > for > > >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know > this > > >> sounds outlandish and even racist
> > >Thats because it (especially when taken together with your comments about > > >"our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your attitude in > > >resumes and interviews is anything like you display in this post then you > > >are unemployable.
> > >-- > > >Niall Litchfield > > >Oracle DBA > > >Audit Commission UK > > >***************************************** > > >Please include version and platform > > >and SQL where applicable > > >It makes life easier and increases the > > >likelihood of a good answer
I have screened hundreds of candidates and hired less than 5% of those interviewed. There is no substitute for a rigorous consistent technical interview. Resume fraud is nothing new. It may be worse than it was five years ago, but this is only because so many companies have had sloppy hiring practices.
The good thing about the economic down turn is that companies are becoming more selective and some of the fluff is being driven out of the market.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chris Weiss www.hpdbe.com High Performance Database Engineering ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Resume fraud is at the highest levels that i've seen in the Atlanta area > since I became a consultant in 1989 - particularly in the Oracle arena. I > can only imagine what it's like in other major cities.
> What should you do if your honest resume has you positioned as a strong > Oracle professional, and noone is returning your calls ?
> A. Send a letter to your Congressman to encourage companies to hire > American ( no work visas) ,and also to local recruiting companies to recruit > local candidates only - much like recruiting companies in Chicago and > Cleveland are doing.
> B. Be the first one out the box to apply for a posted job. Scour the > consulting companies web sites before u waste your time with Dice, Monster, > or even Computer jobs. I'll have to say that Computerjobs may be the least > bitter of all those lemons. Net-Temps.com isn't bad et all.
> C. Call - don't just send a resume
> D. Try to follow up on who got the assignment and why u weren't considered, > didn't get an interview, or even didn't get a call.
> E. Take names - Consulting companies have forgotten what common courtesy > means...Just a phone call or a return email to say that the position has > been closed will do. The surprising thing about this is that in the past the > no-responses were mom-and-pop operations, but now it's all of them ; Matrix, > WebGroup, Maxim Group, ManPower, Technisource, and the list goes on...... > When the market recovers, they'll be calling you, just don't be calling them > back, or kindly remind them of when....... :-)
> F. Pray that consulting companies have enough technical expertise to know a > fraud. This is a very severe problem in this industry. I don't think the > most qualified people get to be seen because of the volume of Fraudulent > resumes; they get overlooked because they're not 1st or 2nd....10th etc...
> G. Back to the old days. I remember that some 12/13 years ago, with only 5 > years experience, even companies like Matrix and Romac wouldn't place me. > They said I didn't have enough experience (7-10 years). I wasn't mad then > but I'm mad now, that 3 years of experience buys you the right to get a > consultant job. I think most of the consulting companies have decided to > focus on the $$$$. Remember what your client wants isn't always what's good > for you - as a consulting company u should know that.
> H. Hope you know the recruiter you're working with...... Good luck in > training them on IT concepts... Consulting outfits have had tremendous > turnover lately.
> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for > them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this > sounds outlandish and even racist, but I recall during an earlier recession > while interviewing DBA applicants for a client, I'd received 100 resumes and > less than 10% had names I could pronounce.
> J. Don't apply if you're not "qualified". Experienced Consultants by nature > are typically overqualified for the assignments they take.
> K. Don't abuse the technical reference process. Don't have friends and > coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from the > ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references > are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......Wrong, they don't won't to know, > particularly if they can get their client to $$$$$.
From your point "K" , it is obvious that you are referring to Indian software professionals . I just want to inform you that you have met the wrong people . I have 6+ years Oracle Consulting experience in the United States . I have never lied on my resume nor had Indian co-workers tell me lies about my work performed at different client places . -- Sathish B
> Resume fraud is at the highest levels that i've seen in the Atlanta area > since I became a consultant in 1989 - particularly in the Oracle arena. I > can only imagine what it's like in other major cities.
> What should you do if your honest resume has you positioned as a strong > Oracle professional, and noone is returning your calls ?
> A. Send a letter to your Congressman to encourage companies to hire > American ( no work visas) ,and also to local recruiting companies to recruit > local candidates only - much like recruiting companies in Chicago and > Cleveland are doing.
> B. Be the first one out the box to apply for a posted job. Scour the > consulting companies web sites before u waste your time with Dice, Monster, > or even Computer jobs. I'll have to say that Computerjobs may be the least > bitter of all those lemons. Net-Temps.com isn't bad et all.
> C. Call - don't just send a resume
> D. Try to follow up on who got the assignment and why u weren't considered, > didn't get an interview, or even didn't get a call.
> E. Take names - Consulting companies have forgotten what common courtesy > means...Just a phone call or a return email to say that the position has > been closed will do. The surprising thing about this is that in the past the > no-responses were mom-and-pop operations, but now it's all of them ; Matrix, > WebGroup, Maxim Group, ManPower, Technisource, and the list goes on...... > When the market recovers, they'll be calling you, just don't be calling them > back, or kindly remind them of when....... :-)
> F. Pray that consulting companies have enough technical expertise to know a > fraud. This is a very severe problem in this industry. I don't think the > most qualified people get to be seen because of the volume of Fraudulent > resumes; they get overlooked because they're not 1st or 2nd....10th etc...
> G. Back to the old days. I remember that some 12/13 years ago, with only 5 > years experience, even companies like Matrix and Romac wouldn't place me. > They said I didn't have enough experience (7-10 years). I wasn't mad then > but I'm mad now, that 3 years of experience buys you the right to get a > consultant job. I think most of the consulting companies have decided to > focus on the $$$$. Remember what your client wants isn't always what's good > for you - as a consulting company u should know that.
> H. Hope you know the recruiter you're working with...... Good luck in > training them on IT concepts... Consulting outfits have had tremendous > turnover lately.
> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for > them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this > sounds outlandish and even racist, but I recall during an earlier recession > while interviewing DBA applicants for a client, I'd received 100 resumes and > less than 10% had names I could pronounce.
> J. Don't apply if you're not "qualified". Experienced Consultants by nature > are typically overqualified for the assignments they take.
> K. Don't abuse the technical reference process. Don't have friends and > coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from the > ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references > are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......Wrong, they don't won't to know, > particularly if they can get their client to $$$$$.
A couple of things and then I'll leave well alone.
1. Lying on resumes is wrong, and in my view should be a sackable offence. 2. Nearly all of what you wrote I agree with, and given your description of the situation I can well understand your frustration. None of the behaviour you describe is acceptable.
that said you originally wrote
"If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for them to place an Born-American"
and
"Don't have friends and coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from the ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......"
Now I'm sorry if I have misread you but that suggests to me that you believe that asians are more likely to lie and more likely to be substandard that understanding was the racist attitude I was callling you on. If I'm wrong I apologize.
Finally FWIW in the UK currently there are fast track immigration procedures for Oracle DBAs (it apparently is a skill in short supply) from abroad, so the 'issue' is raised here as well. As for Uncle Tony, fortunately we don't see much of him these days which is all well and fine with me.
-- Niall Litchfield Oracle DBA Audit Commission UK ***************************************** Please include version and platform and SQL where applicable It makes life easier and increases the likelihood of a good answer
******************************************
"RSH" <RSH_Ora...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> Lookit, Niall, I needed to hire 2 (two) more DBAs to fill out the complement > needed to have two DBAs on the AT&T side and two on the Lucent side when the > split came in October 1, 1996.
> (The fact that it needed 4 people to replace me was amusing; my own district > manager said "Dammit, why don't both companies just contract you and even > though you work 90 hours a week, it's cheaper than 4 people...")
> I got over 200 resumes. > 100 went in the trash. > The other 100 got at least one phone screen from me.
> The remaining 50 got another phone screen on a speaker phone in a conference > room with: me, our best programmer (Vishnu, who happens to be from India, > and for whom I was happy to testify under oath to help him get permanent > residency, as I did many years ago for a CDC programmer from Hong Kong), and > my only (other than myself) DBA at the time, H1 from Britain.
> That narrowed it down to 10.
> Those people we had in for nearly 4 hours each, for face to face, > whiteboarding, interviews with me and my technical folks, and two AT&T > managers.
> Out of this, I got my two, both H1 visa types.
> And guess what? I shouldn't have left out the sodium Pentothal and the > polygraph tests, because in spite of all this, they were extremely > substandard. Plus, their cultural values included treating women as dirt, > which wasn't sitting at all well with our team across the street, nearly all > of whom were Indian, and half of them women, and all very good. The one > "DBA" who "was a C programmer" typed so slowly, I figured it would be a good > week when he got a line of code out. He was the one that left his pager on > his desk whenever he left the building. The other guy was worse.
> I don't think it's being bigoted or discriminatory to simply make a factual > statement that I got 200 resumes or more, 90% of them were H1/H1B people > sponsored by their consulting firms / slavers; among the rejectees were the > few Americans that were presented; and after what I think is diligence > beyond the call of duty, I still ended up with unqualified people that were > unsuitable and had ZERO people skills. I was absolutely color / ethnic/ sex > / religion / everything else blind; 7 years of Diversity training makes that > instinctive. I just wanted the best people; what I got was the best of a > sorry lot.
> But most of those resumes were massively falsified, as well, including as it > turns out, those of the two I picked. That's not bigotry, those are real, > factual numbers; last time I looked it up, deriving a percentage wasn't > considered a discriminatory act under Federal law.
> I should have looked at 1,000 people to fill those two slots, I guess, but I > just didn't have time; maybe 20,000. Working 90 hours a week on splitting up > one of the world's largest corporations didn't give me that kind of time.
> I've been out of work for entirely too long. I guess I better figure out a > better way to lie on my resume; 24 years of experience doesn't seem to cut > it; how can I compete with people claiming to be senior, willing to work for > 15-20% of what I make, and resumes falsified up the wazoo? My career and job > prospects are sure shot to hell at the moment; who wouldn't hire someone for > a10th of what I make if they look good on paper.
> So go tell it to the Marines, Niall.
> Britain has far stricter rules about immigrant hiring and visas and such, > even if your spouse is British, so have a nice chat with your Uncle Tony all > about it, and don't preach to people who are wondering how they are going to > afford to live because a legal form of "migrant labor" has sucked up so many > of our jobs. The dot bomb crash and the tech market slowdown does NOT > explain this. $15/hr explains this.
> RSH.
> "damorgan" <dan.mor...@ci.seattle.wa.us> wrote in message > news:3C7A6A56.AC1EB138@ci.seattle.wa.us... > > Speaking as one who has interviewed many hundreds in the U.S. there is no > > question that fraud exists ... both with nationals and foreign nationals. > And > > both with respect to resumes, references, and education.
> > My feeling about references can be summed up as follows: "Anyone that > can't find > > three friends to lie for him or her is a pathetic soul. My feeling with > respect > > to resumes and education claims doesn't deviate far from that mark.
> > The only way to choose candidates is by interview ... first phone ... then > in > > person. And always with a whiteboard and a combination of prewritten and > > spontaneous questions testing everything from basic SQL skills on up. My > > favorite questions are the ones where the correct answer is "You can't do > that > > in Oracle." They quickly weeds out the fakes.
> > Daniel Morgan
> > Niall Litchfield wrote:
> > > Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I > > > asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to name( excepting maybe > > > Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge potential > > > employers,employees or your ability to get hired by reference to ethnic > mix > > > that is a racist attitude. end of story.
> > > -- > > > Niall Litchfield > > > Oracle DBA > > > Audit Commission UK > > > ***************************************** > > > Please include version and platform > > > and SQL where applicable > > > It makes life easier and increases the > > > likelihood of a good answer
> > > ****************************************** > > > "EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > > news:a5dh4m$q5g$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net... > > > > Are you waiting for your green-card too ?
> > > > Niall Litchfield wrote in message > > > > <3c7a26f7$0$231$ed9e5...@reading.news.pipex.net>... > > > > >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > > > >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > > > >> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how > many > > > > >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any > incentive > > > for > > > > >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I > know > > > this > > > > >> sounds outlandish and even racist
> > > > >Thats because it (especially when taken together with your comments > about > > > > >"our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your attitude > in > > > > >resumes and interviews is anything like you display in this post then > you > > > > >are unemployable.
> > > > >-- > > > > >Niall Litchfield > > > > >Oracle DBA > > > > >Audit Commission UK > > > > >***************************************** > > > > >Please include version and platform > > > > >and SQL where applicable > > > > >It makes life easier and increases the > > > > >likelihood of a good answer
> A couple of things and then I'll leave well alone.
> 1. Lying on resumes is wrong, and in my view should be a sackable offence. > 2. Nearly all of what you wrote I agree with, and given your description of > the situation I can well understand your frustration. None of the behaviour > you describe is acceptable.
> that said you originally wrote
> "If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for > them to place an Born-American"
> and
> "Don't have friends and > coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from the > ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references > are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......"
> Now I'm sorry if I have misread you but that suggests to me that you believe > that asians are more likely to lie and more likely to be substandard that > understanding was the racist attitude I was callling you on. If I'm wrong I > apologize.
> Finally FWIW in the UK currently there are fast track immigration > procedures for Oracle DBAs (it apparently is a skill in short supply) from > abroad, so the 'issue' is raised here as well. As for Uncle Tony, > fortunately we don't see much of him these days which is all well and fine > with me.
> -- > Niall Litchfield > Oracle DBA > Audit Commission UK > ***************************************** > Please include version and platform > and SQL where applicable > It makes life easier and increases the > likelihood of a good answer
> ******************************************
> "RSH" <RSH_Ora...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message > news:gmye8.8102$FE4.497102@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > Lookit, Niall, I needed to hire 2 (two) more DBAs to fill out the > complement > > needed to have two DBAs on the AT&T side and two on the Lucent side when > the > > split came in October 1, 1996.
> > (The fact that it needed 4 people to replace me was amusing; my own > district > > manager said "Dammit, why don't both companies just contract you and even > > though you work 90 hours a week, it's cheaper than 4 people...")
> > I got over 200 resumes. > > 100 went in the trash. > > The other 100 got at least one phone screen from me.
> > The remaining 50 got another phone screen on a speaker phone in a > conference > > room with: me, our best programmer (Vishnu, who happens to be from India, > > and for whom I was happy to testify under oath to help him get permanent > > residency, as I did many years ago for a CDC programmer from Hong Kong), > and > > my only (other than myself) DBA at the time, H1 from Britain.
> > That narrowed it down to 10.
> > Those people we had in for nearly 4 hours each, for face to face, > > whiteboarding, interviews with me and my technical folks, and two AT&T > > managers.
> > Out of this, I got my two, both H1 visa types.
> > And guess what? I shouldn't have left out the sodium Pentothal and the > > polygraph tests, because in spite of all this, they were extremely > > substandard. Plus, their cultural values included treating women as dirt, > > which wasn't sitting at all well with our team across the street, nearly > all > > of whom were Indian, and half of them women, and all very good. The one > > "DBA" who "was a C programmer" typed so slowly, I figured it would be a > good > > week when he got a line of code out. He was the one that left his pager on > > his desk whenever he left the building. The other guy was worse.
> > I don't think it's being bigoted or discriminatory to simply make a > factual > > statement that I got 200 resumes or more, 90% of them were H1/H1B people > > sponsored by their consulting firms / slavers; among the rejectees were > the > > few Americans that were presented; and after what I think is diligence > > beyond the call of duty, I still ended up with unqualified people that > were > > unsuitable and had ZERO people skills. I was absolutely color / ethnic/ > sex > > / religion / everything else blind; 7 years of Diversity training makes > that > > instinctive. I just wanted the best people; what I got was the best of a > > sorry lot.
> > But most of those resumes were massively falsified, as well, including as > it > > turns out, those of the two I picked. That's not bigotry, those are real, > > factual numbers; last time I looked it up, deriving a percentage wasn't > > considered a discriminatory act under Federal law.
> > I should have looked at 1,000 people to fill those two slots, I guess, but > I > > just didn't have time; maybe 20,000. Working 90 hours a week on splitting > up > > one of the world's largest corporations didn't give me that kind of time.
> > I've been out of work for entirely too long. I guess I better figure out a > > better way to lie on my resume; 24 years of experience doesn't seem to cut > > it; how can I compete with people claiming to be senior, willing to work > for > > 15-20% of what I make, and resumes falsified up the wazoo? My career and > job > > prospects are sure shot to hell at the moment; who wouldn't hire someone > for > > a10th of what I make if they look good on paper.
> > So go tell it to the Marines, Niall.
> > Britain has far stricter rules about immigrant hiring and visas and such, > > even if your spouse is British, so have a nice chat with your Uncle Tony > all > > about it, and don't preach to people who are wondering how they are going > to > > afford to live because a legal form of "migrant labor" has sucked up so > many > > of our jobs. The dot bomb crash and the tech market slowdown does NOT > > explain this. $15/hr explains this.
> > RSH.
> > "damorgan" <dan.mor...@ci.seattle.wa.us> wrote in message > > news:3C7A6A56.AC1EB138@ci.seattle.wa.us... > > > Speaking as one who has interviewed many hundreds in the U.S. there is > no > > > question that fraud exists ... both with nationals and foreign > nationals. > > And > > > both with respect to resumes, references, and education.
> > > My feeling about references can be summed up as follows: "Anyone that > > can't find > > > three friends to lie for him or her is a pathetic soul. My feeling with > > respect > > > to resumes and education claims doesn't deviate far from that mark.
> > > The only way to choose candidates is by interview ... first phone ... > then > > in > > > person. And always with a whiteboard and a combination of prewritten and > > > spontaneous questions testing everything from basic SQL skills on up. My > > > favorite questions are the ones where the correct answer is "You can't > do > > that > > > in Oracle." They quickly weeds out the fakes.
> > > Daniel Morgan
> > > Niall Litchfield wrote:
> > > > Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I > > > > asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to name( excepting > maybe > > > > Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge potential > > > > employers,employees or your ability to get hired by reference to > ethnic > > mix > > > > that is a racist attitude. end of story.
> > > > -- > > > > Niall Litchfield > > > > Oracle DBA > > > > Audit Commission UK > > > > ***************************************** > > > > Please include version and platform > > > > and SQL where applicable > > > > It makes life easier and increases the > > > > likelihood of a good answer
> > > > ****************************************** > > > > "EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > > > news:a5dh4m$q5g$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net... > > > > > Are you waiting for your green-card too ?
> > > > > Niall Litchfield wrote in message > > > > > <3c7a26f7$0$231$ed9e5...@reading.news.pipex.net>... > > > > > >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > > > > >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > > > > >> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit > how > > many > > > > > >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any > > incentive > > > > for > > > > > >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I > > know > > > > this > > > > > >> sounds outlandish and even racist
> > > > > >Thats because it (especially when taken together with your comments > > about > > > > > >"our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your > attitude > > in > > > > > >resumes and interviews is anything like you display in this post > then > > you > > > > > >are unemployable.
> > > > > >-- > > > > > >Niall Litchfield > > > > > >Oracle DBA > > > > > >Audit Commission UK > > > > > >***************************************** > > > > > >Please include version and platform > > > > > >and SQL where applicable > > > > > >It makes life easier and increases the > > > > > >likelihood of a good answer
For whatever it is worth, my comments were not meant as some blanket condemnation; as I said in my notes, about half our team were from India and were extremely well qualified and a pleasure to work with, and if anything, their resumes were not truly reflective of all the skills they had. A distinct departure from my nightmare in trying to hire just two DBAs.
I think one of my favorite memories was of Babita, who was a crack programmer, as I was retooling our whole systems district.
"What are you and Todd doing all this to my machine for?" 'Trust me, Babs, you'll love it when we're done.' "But I am happy with what I have." 'Babita, go to lunch, we can argue some more when you get back if you feel like it.' <after lunch>
"Reflections? What is this now I have to learn?!" 'Ah, for you, maybe 5 minutes to figure it out; I should be so lucky across the street.'
"Scott, this is amazing, VI works right, all the function keys do what they should (then I showed her how to tweak anything she liked), to think I have had to put up with this crap I had before that was driving me crazy! "
'Does this mean you're done whining at me and you like your upgrade?'
"I am telling you I'll come after you or Todd with some sharp object if you put this thing back the way it was; and I promise to never, ever question or give you grief again if you or one of your team comes over to do something to my machine; this is a miracle!"
'Babs, we wouldn't have done this if we didn't think it would help you!'
God Bless her, wherever she is. Of course, she was the first programmer to be demeaned and insulted by one of my two prize DBA's, both from her country of origin. I guess their male egos couldn't handle the thought a woman had more smarts in her left toe than they had collectively in their entire bodies. She came to me in tears and begged me never to leave, apologized for anything she might have ever said to me in her life to offend me, (and this is a tough, smart cookie). "I'll take care of it, Babs "(she hated that, only took that from me).
Grabbed the DBAs by the throat, shoved them in a conference room, and said "If you EVER treat ANYONE on staff like you did this woman I've worked with, known, and respected for 3 years, you will be so out of here that if I can't find a door handy, you will go out the nearest window. And I don't care what floor we're on at the time. This is AT&T, and man, woman, race, being handicapped, sexual preference or identity, age or youth, everyone is treated with respect and courtesy. That's how we do things here, we find it works out pretty well. This is your first and last warning.."
As usual, my subtle, highly trained approach to reminding people that Diversity is a way of life in AT&T, not just a bunch of words, worked.
EJ, don't take this personally; this was a classic example of things that I've had to endure on my end; I don't care where people come from, what they look like; if they have the skills I need to fill a position, they have the job. Ironically, I don't have a job largely in part because of people who are not as honest or forthcoming about their qualifications, and because of the H1/H1B slavery system, they'll work for whatever they can get.
So I'll probably end up working at McDonalds. I think they give you a free meal at least.
RSH.
"Sathish Balas" <sathishr...@home.com> wrote in message
> From your point "K" , it is obvious that you are referring to Indian > software professionals . I just want to inform you that you have > met the wrong people . I have 6+ years Oracle Consulting experience in the > United States . I have never lied on my resume > nor had Indian co-workers tell me lies about my work performed at different > client places . > -- > Sathish B > "EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > Resume fraud is at the highest levels that i've seen in the Atlanta area > > since I became a consultant in 1989 - particularly in the Oracle arena. I > > can only imagine what it's like in other major cities.
> > What should you do if your honest resume has you positioned as a strong > > Oracle professional, and noone is returning your calls ?
> > A. Send a letter to your Congressman to encourage companies to hire > > American ( no work visas) ,and also to local recruiting companies to > recruit > > local candidates only - much like recruiting companies in Chicago and > > Cleveland are doing.
> > B. Be the first one out the box to apply for a posted job. Scour the > > consulting companies web sites before u waste your time with Dice, > Monster, > > or even Computer jobs. I'll have to say that Computerjobs may be the least > > bitter of all those lemons. Net-Temps.com isn't bad et all.
> > C. Call - don't just send a resume
> > D. Try to follow up on who got the assignment and why u weren't > considered, > > didn't get an interview, or even didn't get a call.
> > E. Take names - Consulting companies have forgotten what common courtesy > > means...Just a phone call or a return email to say that the position has > > been closed will do. The surprising thing about this is that in the past > the > > no-responses were mom-and-pop operations, but now it's all of them ; > Matrix, > > WebGroup, Maxim Group, ManPower, Technisource, and the list goes on...... > > When the market recovers, they'll be calling you, just don't be calling > them > > back, or kindly remind them of when....... :-)
> > F. Pray that consulting companies have enough technical expertise to know > a > > fraud. This is a very severe problem in this industry. I don't think the > > most qualified people get to be seen because of the volume of Fraudulent > > resumes; they get overlooked because they're not 1st or 2nd....10th etc...
> > G. Back to the old days. I remember that some 12/13 years ago, with only 5 > > years experience, even companies like Matrix and Romac wouldn't place me. > > They said I didn't have enough experience (7-10 years). I wasn't mad then > > but I'm mad now, that 3 years of experience buys you the right to get a > > consultant job. I think most of the consulting companies have decided to > > focus on the $$$$. Remember what your client wants isn't always what's > good > > for you - as a consulting company u should know that.
> > H. Hope you know the recruiter you're working with...... Good luck in > > training them on IT concepts... Consulting outfits have had tremendous > > turnover lately.
> > I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > > resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for > > them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this > > sounds outlandish and even racist, but I recall during an earlier > recession > > while interviewing DBA applicants for a client, I'd received 100 resumes > and > > less than 10% had names I could pronounce.
> > J. Don't apply if you're not "qualified". Experienced Consultants by > nature > > are typically overqualified for the assignments they take.
> > K. Don't abuse the technical reference process. Don't have friends and > > coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from > the > > ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references > > are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......Wrong, they don't won't to know, > > particularly if they can get their client to $$$$$.
I've apologised off group but this deserves an apology on group as well. The comments I attributed to RSH did not come from him, but from "EJ". This misattribution is entirely my error.
-- Niall Litchfield Oracle DBA Audit Commission UK ***************************************** Please include version and platform and SQL where applicable It makes life easier and increases the likelihood of a good answer
******************************************
"RSH" <RSH_Ora...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > 1. Lying on resumes is wrong, and in my view should be a sackable offence. > > 2. Nearly all of what you wrote I agree with, and given your description > of > > the situation I can well understand your frustration. None of the > behaviour > > you describe is acceptable.
> > that said you originally wrote
> > "If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > > resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for > > them to place an Born-American"
> > and
> > "Don't have friends and > > coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from > the > > ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references > > are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......"
> > Now I'm sorry if I have misread you but that suggests to me that you > believe > > that asians are more likely to lie and more likely to be substandard that > > understanding was the racist attitude I was callling you on. If I'm wrong > I > > apologize.
> > Finally FWIW in the UK currently there are fast track immigration > > procedures for Oracle DBAs (it apparently is a skill in short supply) from > > abroad, so the 'issue' is raised here as well. As for Uncle Tony, > > fortunately we don't see much of him these days which is all well and fine > > with me.
> > -- > > Niall Litchfield > > Oracle DBA > > Audit Commission UK > > ***************************************** > > Please include version and platform > > and SQL where applicable > > It makes life easier and increases the > > likelihood of a good answer
> > ******************************************
> > "RSH" <RSH_Ora...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message > > news:gmye8.8102$FE4.497102@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > > Lookit, Niall, I needed to hire 2 (two) more DBAs to fill out the > > complement > > > needed to have two DBAs on the AT&T side and two on the Lucent side when > > the > > > split came in October 1, 1996.
> > > (The fact that it needed 4 people to replace me was amusing; my own > > district > > > manager said "Dammit, why don't both companies just contract you and > even > > > though you work 90 hours a week, it's cheaper than 4 people...")
> > > I got over 200 resumes. > > > 100 went in the trash. > > > The other 100 got at least one phone screen from me.
> > > The remaining 50 got another phone screen on a speaker phone in a > > conference > > > room with: me, our best programmer (Vishnu, who happens to be from > India, > > > and for whom I was happy to testify under oath to help him get permanent > > > residency, as I did many years ago for a CDC programmer from Hong Kong), > > and > > > my only (other than myself) DBA at the time, H1 from Britain.
> > > That narrowed it down to 10.
> > > Those people we had in for nearly 4 hours each, for face to face, > > > whiteboarding, interviews with me and my technical folks, and two AT&T > > > managers.
> > > Out of this, I got my two, both H1 visa types.
> > > And guess what? I shouldn't have left out the sodium Pentothal and the > > > polygraph tests, because in spite of all this, they were extremely > > > substandard. Plus, their cultural values included treating women as > dirt, > > > which wasn't sitting at all well with our team across the street, nearly > > all > > > of whom were Indian, and half of them women, and all very good. The one > > > "DBA" who "was a C programmer" typed so slowly, I figured it would be a > > good > > > week when he got a line of code out. He was the one that left his pager > on > > > his desk whenever he left the building. The other guy was worse.
> > > I don't think it's being bigoted or discriminatory to simply make a > > factual > > > statement that I got 200 resumes or more, 90% of them were H1/H1B people > > > sponsored by their consulting firms / slavers; among the rejectees were > > the > > > few Americans that were presented; and after what I think is diligence > > > beyond the call of duty, I still ended up with unqualified people that > > were > > > unsuitable and had ZERO people skills. I was absolutely color / ethnic/ > > sex > > > / religion / everything else blind; 7 years of Diversity training makes > > that > > > instinctive. I just wanted the best people; what I got was the best of a > > > sorry lot.
> > > But most of those resumes were massively falsified, as well, including > as > > it > > > turns out, those of the two I picked. That's not bigotry, those are > real, > > > factual numbers; last time I looked it up, deriving a percentage wasn't > > > considered a discriminatory act under Federal law.
> > > I should have looked at 1,000 people to fill those two slots, I guess, > but > > I > > > just didn't have time; maybe 20,000. Working 90 hours a week on > splitting > > up > > > one of the world's largest corporations didn't give me that kind of > time.
> > > I've been out of work for entirely too long. I guess I better figure out > a > > > better way to lie on my resume; 24 years of experience doesn't seem to > cut > > > it; how can I compete with people claiming to be senior, willing to work > > for > > > 15-20% of what I make, and resumes falsified up the wazoo? My career and > > job > > > prospects are sure shot to hell at the moment; who wouldn't hire someone > > for > > > a10th of what I make if they look good on paper.
> > > So go tell it to the Marines, Niall.
> > > Britain has far stricter rules about immigrant hiring and visas and > such, > > > even if your spouse is British, so have a nice chat with your Uncle Tony > > all > > > about it, and don't preach to people who are wondering how they are > going > > to > > > afford to live because a legal form of "migrant labor" has sucked up so > > many > > > of our jobs. The dot bomb crash and the tech market slowdown does NOT > > > explain this. $15/hr explains this.
> > > RSH.
> > > "damorgan" <dan.mor...@ci.seattle.wa.us> wrote in message > > > news:3C7A6A56.AC1EB138@ci.seattle.wa.us... > > > > Speaking as one who has interviewed many hundreds in the U.S. there is > > no > > > > question that fraud exists ... both with nationals and foreign > > nationals. > > > And > > > > both with respect to resumes, references, and education.
> > > > My feeling about references can be summed up as follows: "Anyone that > > > can't find > > > > three friends to lie for him or her is a pathetic soul. My feeling > with > > > respect > > > > to resumes and education claims doesn't deviate far from that mark.
> > > > The only way to choose candidates is by interview ... first phone ... > > then > > > in > > > > person. And always with a whiteboard and a combination of prewritten > and > > > > spontaneous questions testing everything from basic SQL skills on up. > My > > > > favorite questions are the ones where the correct answer is "You can't > > do > > > that > > > > in Oracle." They quickly weeds out the fakes.
> > > > Daniel Morgan
> > > > Niall Litchfield wrote:
> > > > > Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I > > > > > asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to name( excepting > > maybe > > > > > Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge potential > > > > > employers,employees or your ability to get hired by reference to > > ethnic > > > mix > > > > > that is a racist attitude. end of story.
> > > > > -- > > > > > Niall Litchfield > > > > > Oracle DBA > > > > > Audit Commission UK > > > > > ***************************************** > > > > > Please include version and platform > > > > > and SQL where applicable > > > > > It makes life easier and increases the > > > > > likelihood of a good answer
> > > > > ****************************************** > > > > > "EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:a5dh4m$q5g$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net... > > > > > > Are you waiting for your green-card too ?
> > > > > > Niall Litchfield wrote in message > > > > > > <3c7a26f7$0$231$ed9e5...@reading.news.pipex.net>... > > > > > > >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > > > > > >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > > > > > >> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit > > how > > > many > > > > > > >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any > > > incentive > > > > > for > > > > > > >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I > > > know > > > > > this > > > > > > >> sounds outlandish and even racist
> > > > > > >Thats because it (especially when taken together with your > comments > > > about > > > > > > >"our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your > > attitude > > > in > > > > > > >resumes and interviews is anything like you display
> I've apologised off group but this deserves an apology on group as well. The > comments I attributed to RSH did not come from him, but from "EJ". This > misattribution is entirely my error.
> -- > Niall Litchfield > Oracle DBA > Audit Commission UK > ***************************************** > Please include version and platform > and SQL where applicable > It makes life easier and increases the > likelihood of a good answer
> ****************************************** > "RSH" <RSH_Ora...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message > news:5oMe8.192$gK2.13828@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > Niall, with all due respect, I did not write anything past the point where > > you began with'
> > "that said, you originally wrote:..."
> > because I didn't. You must have been inadvertently quoting another party > to > > this party we've started, it certainly was NOT me.
> > > 1. Lying on resumes is wrong, and in my view should be a sackable > offence. > > > 2. Nearly all of what you wrote I agree with, and given your description > > of > > > the situation I can well understand your frustration. None of the > > behaviour > > > you describe is acceptable.
> > > that said you originally wrote
> > > "If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > > > resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive > for > > > them to place an Born-American"
> > > and
> > > "Don't have friends and > > > coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from > > the > > > ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical > references > > > are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......"
> > > Now I'm sorry if I have misread you but that suggests to me that you > > believe > > > that asians are more likely to lie and more likely to be substandard > that > > > understanding was the racist attitude I was callling you on. If I'm > wrong > > I > > > apologize.
> > > Finally FWIW in the UK currently there are fast track immigration > > > procedures for Oracle DBAs (it apparently is a skill in short supply) > from > > > abroad, so the 'issue' is raised here as well. As for Uncle Tony, > > > fortunately we don't see much of him these days which is all well and > fine > > > with me.
> > > -- > > > Niall Litchfield > > > Oracle DBA > > > Audit Commission UK > > > ***************************************** > > > Please include version and platform > > > and SQL where applicable > > > It makes life easier and increases the > > > likelihood of a good answer
> > > ******************************************
> > > "RSH" <RSH_Ora...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message > > > news:gmye8.8102$FE4.497102@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > > > Lookit, Niall, I needed to hire 2 (two) more DBAs to fill out the > > > complement > > > > needed to have two DBAs on the AT&T side and two on the Lucent side > when > > > the > > > > split came in October 1, 1996.
> > > > (The fact that it needed 4 people to replace me was amusing; my own > > > district > > > > manager said "Dammit, why don't both companies just contract you and > > even > > > > though you work 90 hours a week, it's cheaper than 4 people...")
> > > > I got over 200 resumes. > > > > 100 went in the trash. > > > > The other 100 got at least one phone screen from me.
> > > > The remaining 50 got another phone screen on a speaker phone in a > > > conference > > > > room with: me, our best programmer (Vishnu, who happens to be from > > India, > > > > and for whom I was happy to testify under oath to help him get > permanent > > > > residency, as I did many years ago for a CDC programmer from Hong > Kong), > > > and > > > > my only (other than myself) DBA at the time, H1 from Britain.
> > > > That narrowed it down to 10.
> > > > Those people we had in for nearly 4 hours each, for face to face, > > > > whiteboarding, interviews with me and my technical folks, and two AT&T > > > > managers.
> > > > Out of this, I got my two, both H1 visa types.
> > > > And guess what? I shouldn't have left out the sodium Pentothal and the > > > > polygraph tests, because in spite of all this, they were extremely > > > > substandard. Plus, their cultural values included treating women as > > dirt, > > > > which wasn't sitting at all well with our team across the street, > nearly > > > all > > > > of whom were Indian, and half of them women, and all very good. The > one > > > > "DBA" who "was a C programmer" typed so slowly, I figured it would be > a > > > good > > > > week when he got a line of code out. He was the one that left his > pager > > on > > > > his desk whenever he left the building. The other guy was worse.
> > > > I don't think it's being bigoted or discriminatory to simply make a > > > factual > > > > statement that I got 200 resumes or more, 90% of them were H1/H1B > people > > > > sponsored by their consulting firms / slavers; among the rejectees > were > > > the > > > > few Americans that were presented; and after what I think is diligence > > > > beyond the call of duty, I still ended up with unqualified people that > > > were > > > > unsuitable and had ZERO people skills. I was absolutely color / > ethnic/ > > > sex > > > > / religion / everything else blind; 7 years of Diversity training > makes > > > that > > > > instinctive. I just wanted the best people; what I got was the best of > a > > > > sorry lot.
> > > > But most of those resumes were massively falsified, as well, including > > as > > > it > > > > turns out, those of the two I picked. That's not bigotry, those are > > real, > > > > factual numbers; last time I looked it up, deriving a percentage > wasn't > > > > considered a discriminatory act under Federal law.
> > > > I should have looked at 1,000 people to fill those two slots, I guess, > > but > > > I > > > > just didn't have time; maybe 20,000. Working 90 hours a week on > > splitting > > > up > > > > one of the world's largest corporations didn't give me that kind of > > time.
> > > > I've been out of work for entirely too long. I guess I better figure > out > > a > > > > better way to lie on my resume; 24 years of experience doesn't seem to > > cut > > > > it; how can I compete with people claiming to be senior, willing to > work > > > for > > > > 15-20% of what I make, and resumes falsified up the wazoo? My career > and > > > job > > > > prospects are sure shot to hell at the moment; who wouldn't hire > someone > > > for > > > > a10th of what I make if they look good on paper.
> > > > So go tell it to the Marines, Niall.
> > > > Britain has far stricter rules about immigrant hiring and visas and > > such, > > > > even if your spouse is British, so have a nice chat with your Uncle > Tony > > > all > > > > about it, and don't preach to people who are wondering how they are > > going > > > to > > > > afford to live because a legal form of "migrant labor" has sucked up > so > > > many > > > > of our jobs. The dot bomb crash and the tech market slowdown does NOT > > > > explain this. $15/hr explains this.
> > > > RSH.
> > > > "damorgan" <dan.mor...@ci.seattle.wa.us> wrote in message > > > > news:3C7A6A56.AC1EB138@ci.seattle.wa.us... > > > > > Speaking as one who has interviewed many hundreds in the U.S. there > is > > > no > > > > > question that fraud exists ... both with nationals and foreign > > > nationals. > > > > And > > > > > both with respect to resumes, references, and education.
> > > > > My feeling about references can be summed up as follows: "Anyone > that > > > > can't find > > > > > three friends to lie for him or her is a pathetic soul. My feeling > > with > > > > respect > > > > > to resumes and education claims doesn't deviate far from that mark.
> > > > > The only way to choose candidates is by interview ... first phone > ... > > > then > > > > in > > > > > person. And always with a whiteboard and a combination of prewritten > > and > > > > > spontaneous questions testing everything from basic SQL skills on > up. > > My > > > > > favorite questions are the ones where the correct answer is "You > can't > > > do > > > > that > > > > > in Oracle." They quickly weeds out the fakes.
> > > > > Daniel Morgan
> > > > > Niall Litchfield wrote:
> > > > > > Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I > > > > > > asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to name( excepting > > > maybe > > > > > > Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge > potential > > > > > > employers,employees or your ability to get hired by reference to > > > ethnic > > > > mix > > > > > > that is a racist attitude. end of story.
> > > > > > -- > > > > > > Niall Litchfield > > > > > > Oracle DBA > > > > > > Audit Commission UK > > > > > > ***************************************** > > > > > > Please include version and platform > > > > > > and SQL where applicable > > > > > > It makes life easier and increases the > > > > > > likelihood of a good answer
> > > > > > ****************************************** > > > > > > "EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:a5dh4m$q5g$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net... > > > > > > > Are you waiting for your green-card too ?
Some of the most senior developers I have ever worked with have come from India: But then again ... also some of the worst. Just like everybody else from everywhere else.
The one problem that does profoundly affect many foreign developers (from any country) is their understanding not just of the language but of how business rules are created, used, and built into software. And that is something you just can not learn in a programming class.
> From your point "K" , it is obvious that you are referring to Indian > software professionals . I just want to inform you that you have > met the wrong people . I have 6+ years Oracle Consulting experience in the > United States . I have never lied on my resume > nor had Indian co-workers tell me lies about my work performed at different > client places . > -- > Sathish B > "EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > > Resume fraud is at the highest levels that i've seen in the Atlanta area > > since I became a consultant in 1989 - particularly in the Oracle arena. I > > can only imagine what it's like in other major cities.
> > What should you do if your honest resume has you positioned as a strong > > Oracle professional, and noone is returning your calls ?
> > A. Send a letter to your Congressman to encourage companies to hire > > American ( no work visas) ,and also to local recruiting companies to > recruit > > local candidates only - much like recruiting companies in Chicago and > > Cleveland are doing.
> > B. Be the first one out the box to apply for a posted job. Scour the > > consulting companies web sites before u waste your time with Dice, > Monster, > > or even Computer jobs. I'll have to say that Computerjobs may be the least > > bitter of all those lemons. Net-Temps.com isn't bad et all.
> > C. Call - don't just send a resume
> > D. Try to follow up on who got the assignment and why u weren't > considered, > > didn't get an interview, or even didn't get a call.
> > E. Take names - Consulting companies have forgotten what common courtesy > > means...Just a phone call or a return email to say that the position has > > been closed will do. The surprising thing about this is that in the past > the > > no-responses were mom-and-pop operations, but now it's all of them ; > Matrix, > > WebGroup, Maxim Group, ManPower, Technisource, and the list goes on...... > > When the market recovers, they'll be calling you, just don't be calling > them > > back, or kindly remind them of when....... :-)
> > F. Pray that consulting companies have enough technical expertise to know > a > > fraud. This is a very severe problem in this industry. I don't think the > > most qualified people get to be seen because of the volume of Fraudulent > > resumes; they get overlooked because they're not 1st or 2nd....10th etc...
> > G. Back to the old days. I remember that some 12/13 years ago, with only 5 > > years experience, even companies like Matrix and Romac wouldn't place me. > > They said I didn't have enough experience (7-10 years). I wasn't mad then > > but I'm mad now, that 3 years of experience buys you the right to get a > > consultant job. I think most of the consulting companies have decided to > > focus on the $$$$. Remember what your client wants isn't always what's > good > > for you - as a consulting company u should know that.
> > H. Hope you know the recruiter you're working with...... Good luck in > > training them on IT concepts... Consulting outfits have had tremendous > > turnover lately.
> > I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > > resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for > > them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this > > sounds outlandish and even racist, but I recall during an earlier > recession > > while interviewing DBA applicants for a client, I'd received 100 resumes > and > > less than 10% had names I could pronounce.
> > J. Don't apply if you're not "qualified". Experienced Consultants by > nature > > are typically overqualified for the assignments they take.
> > K. Don't abuse the technical reference process. Don't have friends and > > coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from > the > > ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references > > are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......Wrong, they don't won't to know, > > particularly if they can get their client to $$$$$.
I can respect that u think it's racist, but why don't I want to go work in those countries where most of the IT immigrants come from ? Let me give you a few answers and then you'll figure it out.... a) There's not a demand b) There are protectionist measures to protect the native work force c) They don't want Americans there These reasons don't point to racism, but economics. Oh, I guess I should mention that I'm African-American, and in the south, with over 10+ years Oracle experience, I only get the jobs when everybody else fucks up and the project can't afford not to use me.
Oh, Niall buddy, you shouldn't have mentioned the Christian thing. Oh boy do I have stories for you. I can't speak for Christians in general, but my experience as a 7th Day Adventist for most of my life has taught me a lession I shall never forget. To keep it short, I grew up as an adventist and went to an Adventist college in Tn. My religion in general was very strong, but the experience tore me away from that religion and certainly strained my faith in God.
So buddy - remember this - Christianity is not an antonym for Racism
>Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I >asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to name( excepting maybe >Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge potential >employers,employees or your ability to get hired by reference to ethnic mix >that is a racist attitude. end of story.
>-- >Niall Litchfield >Oracle DBA >Audit Commission UK >***************************************** >Please include version and platform >and SQL where applicable >It makes life easier and increases the >likelihood of a good answer
>****************************************** >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >news:a5dh4m$q5g$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net... >> Are you waiting for your green-card too ?
>> Niall Litchfield wrote in message >> <3c7a26f7$0$231$ed9e5...@reading.news.pipex.net>... >> >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >> >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... >> >> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many >> >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive >for >> >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know >this >> >> sounds outlandish and even racist
>> >Thats because it (especially when taken together with your comments about >> >"our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your attitude in >> >resumes and interviews is anything like you display in this post then you >> >are unemployable.
>> >-- >> >Niall Litchfield >> >Oracle DBA >> >Audit Commission UK >> >***************************************** >> >Please include version and platform >> >and SQL where applicable >> >It makes life easier and increases the >> >likelihood of a good answer
RSH wrote in message ... >Lookit, Niall, I needed to hire 2 (two) more DBAs to fill out the complement >needed to have two DBAs on the AT&T side and two on the Lucent side when the >split came in October 1, 1996.
>(The fact that it needed 4 people to replace me was amusing; my own district >manager said "Dammit, why don't both companies just contract you and even >though you work 90 hours a week, it's cheaper than 4 people...")
>I got over 200 resumes. >100 went in the trash. >The other 100 got at least one phone screen from me.
>The remaining 50 got another phone screen on a speaker phone in a conference >room with: me, our best programmer (Vishnu, who happens to be from India, >and for whom I was happy to testify under oath to help him get permanent >residency, as I did many years ago for a CDC programmer from Hong Kong), and >my only (other than myself) DBA at the time, H1 from Britain.
>That narrowed it down to 10.
>Those people we had in for nearly 4 hours each, for face to face, >whiteboarding, interviews with me and my technical folks, and two AT&T >managers.
>Out of this, I got my two, both H1 visa types.
>And guess what? I shouldn't have left out the sodium Pentothal and the >polygraph tests, because in spite of all this, they were extremely >substandard. Plus, their cultural values included treating women as dirt, >which wasn't sitting at all well with our team across the street, nearly all >of whom were Indian, and half of them women, and all very good. The one >"DBA" who "was a C programmer" typed so slowly, I figured it would be a good >week when he got a line of code out. He was the one that left his pager on >his desk whenever he left the building. The other guy was worse.
>I don't think it's being bigoted or discriminatory to simply make a factual >statement that I got 200 resumes or more, 90% of them were H1/H1B people >sponsored by their consulting firms / slavers; among the rejectees were the >few Americans that were presented; and after what I think is diligence >beyond the call of duty, I still ended up with unqualified people that were >unsuitable and had ZERO people skills. I was absolutely color / ethnic/ sex >/ religion / everything else blind; 7 years of Diversity training makes that >instinctive. I just wanted the best people; what I got was the best of a >sorry lot.
>But most of those resumes were massively falsified, as well, including as it >turns out, those of the two I picked. That's not bigotry, those are real, >factual numbers; last time I looked it up, deriving a percentage wasn't >considered a discriminatory act under Federal law.
>I should have looked at 1,000 people to fill those two slots, I guess, but I >just didn't have time; maybe 20,000. Working 90 hours a week on splitting up >one of the world's largest corporations didn't give me that kind of time.
>I've been out of work for entirely too long. I guess I better figure out a >better way to lie on my resume; 24 years of experience doesn't seem to cut >it; how can I compete with people claiming to be senior, willing to work for >15-20% of what I make, and resumes falsified up the wazoo? My career and job >prospects are sure shot to hell at the moment; who wouldn't hire someone for >a10th of what I make if they look good on paper.
>So go tell it to the Marines, Niall.
>Britain has far stricter rules about immigrant hiring and visas and such, >even if your spouse is British, so have a nice chat with your Uncle Tony all >about it, and don't preach to people who are wondering how they are going to >afford to live because a legal form of "migrant labor" has sucked up so many >of our jobs. The dot bomb crash and the tech market slowdown does NOT >explain this. $15/hr explains this.
>RSH.
>"damorgan" <dan.mor...@ci.seattle.wa.us> wrote in message >news:3C7A6A56.AC1EB138@ci.seattle.wa.us... >> Speaking as one who has interviewed many hundreds in the U.S. there is no >> question that fraud exists ... both with nationals and foreign nationals. >And >> both with respect to resumes, references, and education.
>> My feeling about references can be summed up as follows: "Anyone that >can't find >> three friends to lie for him or her is a pathetic soul. My feeling with >respect >> to resumes and education claims doesn't deviate far from that mark.
>> The only way to choose candidates is by interview ... first phone ... then >in >> person. And always with a whiteboard and a combination of prewritten and >> spontaneous questions testing everything from basic SQL skills on up. My >> favorite questions are the ones where the correct answer is "You can't do >that >> in Oracle." They quickly weeds out the fakes.
>> Daniel Morgan
>> Niall Litchfield wrote:
>> > Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I >> > asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to name( excepting maybe >> > Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge potential >> > employers,employees or your ability to get hired by reference to ethnic >mix >> > that is a racist attitude. end of story.
>> > -- >> > Niall Litchfield >> > Oracle DBA >> > Audit Commission UK >> > ***************************************** >> > Please include version and platform >> > and SQL where applicable >> > It makes life easier and increases the >> > likelihood of a good answer
>> > ****************************************** >> > "EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >> > news:a5dh4m$q5g$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net... >> > > Are you waiting for your green-card too ?
>> > > Niall Litchfield wrote in message >> > > <3c7a26f7$0$231$ed9e5...@reading.news.pipex.net>... >> > > >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >> > > >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... >> > > >> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how >many >> > > >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any >incentive >> > for >> > > >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I >know >> > this >> > > >> sounds outlandish and even racist
>> > > >Thats because it (especially when taken together with your comments >about >> > > >"our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your attitude >in >> > > >resumes and interviews is anything like you display in this post then >you >> > > >are unemployable.
>> > > >-- >> > > >Niall Litchfield >> > > >Oracle DBA >> > > >Audit Commission UK >> > > >***************************************** >> > > >Please include version and platform >> > > >and SQL where applicable >> > > >It makes life easier and increases the >> > > >likelihood of a good answer
>From your point "K" , it is obvious that you are referring to Indian >software professionals . I just want to inform you that you have >met the wrong people . I have 6+ years Oracle Consulting experience in the >United States . I have never lied on my resume >nor had Indian co-workers tell me lies about my work performed at different >client places . >-- >Sathish B >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... >> Resume fraud is at the highest levels that i've seen in the Atlanta area >> since I became a consultant in 1989 - particularly in the Oracle arena. I >> can only imagine what it's like in other major cities.
>> What should you do if your honest resume has you positioned as a strong >> Oracle professional, and noone is returning your calls ?
>> A. Send a letter to your Congressman to encourage companies to hire >> American ( no work visas) ,and also to local recruiting companies to >recruit >> local candidates only - much like recruiting companies in Chicago and >> Cleveland are doing.
>> B. Be the first one out the box to apply for a posted job. Scour the >> consulting companies web sites before u waste your time with Dice, >Monster, >> or even Computer jobs. I'll have to say that Computerjobs may be the least >> bitter of all those lemons. Net-Temps.com isn't bad et all.
>> C. Call - don't just send a resume
>> D. Try to follow up on who got the assignment and why u weren't >considered, >> didn't get an interview, or even didn't get a call.
>> E. Take names - Consulting companies have forgotten what common courtesy >> means...Just a phone call or a return email to say that the position has >> been closed will do. The surprising thing about this is that in the past >the >> no-responses were mom-and-pop operations, but now it's all of them ; >Matrix, >> WebGroup, Maxim Group, ManPower, Technisource, and the list goes on...... >> When the market recovers, they'll be calling you, just don't be calling >them >> back, or kindly remind them of when....... :-)
>> F. Pray that consulting companies have enough technical expertise to know >a >> fraud. This is a very severe problem in this industry. I don't think the >> most qualified people get to be seen because of the volume of Fraudulent >> resumes; they get overlooked because they're not 1st or 2nd....10th etc...
>> G. Back to the old days. I remember that some 12/13 years ago, with only 5 >> years experience, even companies like Matrix and Romac wouldn't place me. >> They said I didn't have enough experience (7-10 years). I wasn't mad then >> but I'm mad now, that 3 years of experience buys you the right to get a >> consultant job. I think most of the consulting companies have decided to >> focus on the $$$$. Remember what your client wants isn't always what's >good >> for you - as a consulting company u should know that.
>> H. Hope you know the recruiter you're working with...... Good luck in >> training them on IT concepts... Consulting outfits have had tremendous >> turnover lately.
>> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this >> sounds outlandish and even racist, but I recall during an earlier >recession >> while interviewing DBA applicants for a client, I'd received 100 resumes >and >> less than 10% had names I could pronounce.
>> J. Don't apply if you're not "qualified". Experienced Consultants by >nature >> are typically overqualified for the assignments they take.
>> K. Don't abuse the technical reference process. Don't have friends and >> coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from >the >> ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references >> are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......Wrong, they don't won't to know, >> particularly if they can get their client to $$$$$.
While your statements certainly have some merit, they are compromised somewhat by the fact that so many consulting outfits have a significant number of people on the bench and can afford to convence the client to take them at a significantly reduced price.
Who could resist 30-50% off, even when it's going to cost you in the long run ?
Chris Weiss wrote in message ... >I have screened hundreds of candidates and hired less than 5% of those >interviewed. There is no substitute for a rigorous consistent technical >interview. Resume fraud is nothing new. It may be worse than it was five >years ago, but this is only because so many companies have had sloppy hiring >practices.
>The good thing about the economic down turn is that companies are becoming >more selective and some of the fluff is being driven out of the market.
>"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... >> Resume fraud is at the highest levels that i've seen in the Atlanta area >> since I became a consultant in 1989 - particularly in the Oracle arena. I >> can only imagine what it's like in other major cities.
>> What should you do if your honest resume has you positioned as a strong >> Oracle professional, and noone is returning your calls ?
>> A. Send a letter to your Congressman to encourage companies to hire >> American ( no work visas) ,and also to local recruiting companies to >recruit >> local candidates only - much like recruiting companies in Chicago and >> Cleveland are doing.
>> B. Be the first one out the box to apply for a posted job. Scour the >> consulting companies web sites before u waste your time with Dice, >Monster, >> or even Computer jobs. I'll have to say that Computerjobs may be the least >> bitter of all those lemons. Net-Temps.com isn't bad et all.
>> C. Call - don't just send a resume
>> D. Try to follow up on who got the assignment and why u weren't >considered, >> didn't get an interview, or even didn't get a call.
>> E. Take names - Consulting companies have forgotten what common courtesy >> means...Just a phone call or a return email to say that the position has >> been closed will do. The surprising thing about this is that in the past >the >> no-responses were mom-and-pop operations, but now it's all of them ; >Matrix, >> WebGroup, Maxim Group, ManPower, Technisource, and the list goes on...... >> When the market recovers, they'll be calling you, just don't be calling >them >> back, or kindly remind them of when....... :-)
>> F. Pray that consulting companies have enough technical expertise to know >a >> fraud. This is a very severe problem in this industry. I don't think the >> most qualified people get to be seen because of the volume of Fraudulent >> resumes; they get overlooked because they're not 1st or 2nd....10th etc...
>> G. Back to the old days. I remember that some 12/13 years ago, with only 5 >> years experience, even companies like Matrix and Romac wouldn't place me. >> They said I didn't have enough experience (7-10 years). I wasn't mad then >> but I'm mad now, that 3 years of experience buys you the right to get a >> consultant job. I think most of the consulting companies have decided to >> focus on the $$$$. Remember what your client wants isn't always what's >good >> for you - as a consulting company u should know that.
>> H. Hope you know the recruiter you're working with...... Good luck in >> training them on IT concepts... Consulting outfits have had tremendous >> turnover lately.
>> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this >> sounds outlandish and even racist, but I recall during an earlier >recession >> while interviewing DBA applicants for a client, I'd received 100 resumes >and >> less than 10% had names I could pronounce.
>> J. Don't apply if you're not "qualified". Experienced Consultants by >nature >> are typically overqualified for the assignments they take.
>> K. Don't abuse the technical reference process. Don't have friends and >> coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from >the >> ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references
>> are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......Wrong, they don't won't to know, >> particularly if they can get their client to $$$$$.
I agree - the reference to a certain ethnic group isn't fair, however, I'm not conceding that it's a racist statement.
Whatever statements that I've made isn't anything different that I continue to hear from most folk here, so don't say it's racism. I've never said it's everybody, but just my experience - nobody elses. Racism isn't anything new in America, As an African American, I've experienced it from all sides, and I'm not complaining. So when I make a bold ( not new ) statement that many agree with as reasonably factual, don't assume it's racism. Just conclude that I've got guts - right or wrong !
Also, I would recommend or provide reference for only those where I feel I'm not compromising my credibility with a client - And that's not RACISM...
You've forced me to go here then Niall...... If I gave a client 3 references; 1 from Cool J, Ricki-Dee, and lastly Aundrei-Rock, what are my chances of these being perceived as valid references ? All I'm saying here is that your references represent more than who you might know , but who you've worked for.....and what are the chances that I've worked for 3 rappers....
>I've apologised off group but this deserves an apology on group as well. The >comments I attributed to RSH did not come from him, but from "EJ". This >misattribution is entirely my error.
>-- >Niall Litchfield >Oracle DBA >Audit Commission UK >***************************************** >Please include version and platform >and SQL where applicable >It makes life easier and increases the >likelihood of a good answer
>****************************************** >"RSH" <RSH_Ora...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message >news:5oMe8.192$gK2.13828@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> Niall, with all due respect, I did not write anything past the point where >> you began with'
>> "that said, you originally wrote:..."
>> because I didn't. You must have been inadvertently quoting another party >to >> this party we've started, it certainly was NOT me.
>> > 1. Lying on resumes is wrong, and in my view should be a sackable >offence. >> > 2. Nearly all of what you wrote I agree with, and given your description >> of >> > the situation I can well understand your frustration. None of the >> behaviour >> > you describe is acceptable.
>> > that said you originally wrote
>> > "If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many >> > resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive >for >> > them to place an Born-American"
>> > and
>> > "Don't have friends and >> > coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from >> the >> > ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical >references >> > are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......"
>> > Now I'm sorry if I have misread you but that suggests to me that you >> believe >> > that asians are more likely to lie and more likely to be substandard >that >> > understanding was the racist attitude I was callling you on. If I'm >wrong >> I >> > apologize.
>> > Finally FWIW in the UK currently there are fast track immigration >> > procedures for Oracle DBAs (it apparently is a skill in short supply) >from >> > abroad, so the 'issue' is raised here as well. As for Uncle Tony, >> > fortunately we don't see much of him these days which is all well and >fine >> > with me.
>> > -- >> > Niall Litchfield >> > Oracle DBA >> > Audit Commission UK >> > ***************************************** >> > Please include version and platform >> > and SQL where applicable >> > It makes life easier and increases the >> > likelihood of a good answer
>> > ******************************************
>> > "RSH" <RSH_Ora...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message >> > news:gmye8.8102$FE4.497102@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> > > Lookit, Niall, I needed to hire 2 (two) more DBAs to fill out the >> > complement >> > > needed to have two DBAs on the AT&T side and two on the Lucent side >when >> > the >> > > split came in October 1, 1996.
>> > > (The fact that it needed 4 people to replace me was amusing; my own >> > district >> > > manager said "Dammit, why don't both companies just contract you and >> even >> > > though you work 90 hours a week, it's cheaper than 4 people...")
>> > > I got over 200 resumes. >> > > 100 went in the trash. >> > > The other 100 got at least one phone screen from me.
>> > > The remaining 50 got another phone screen on a speaker phone in a >> > conference >> > > room with: me, our best programmer (Vishnu, who happens to be from >> India, >> > > and for whom I was happy to testify under oath to help him get >permanent >> > > residency, as I did many years ago for a CDC programmer from Hong >Kong), >> > and >> > > my only (other than myself) DBA at the time, H1 from Britain.
>> > > That narrowed it down to 10.
>> > > Those people we had in for nearly 4 hours each, for face to face, >> > > whiteboarding, interviews with me and my technical folks, and two AT&T >> > > managers.
>> > > Out of this, I got my two, both H1 visa types.
>> > > And guess what? I shouldn't have left out the sodium Pentothal and the >> > > polygraph tests, because in spite of all this, they were extremely >> > > substandard. Plus, their cultural values included treating women as >> dirt, >> > > which wasn't sitting at all well with our team across the street, >nearly >> > all >> > > of whom were Indian, and half of them women, and all very good. The >one >> > > "DBA" who "was a C programmer" typed so slowly, I figured it would be >a >> > good >> > > week when he got a line of code out. He was the one that left his >pager >> on >> > > his desk whenever he left the building. The other guy was worse.
>> > > I don't think it's being bigoted or discriminatory to simply make a >> > factual >> > > statement that I got 200 resumes or more, 90% of them were H1/H1B >people >> > > sponsored by their consulting firms / slavers; among the rejectees >were >> > the >> > > few Americans that were presented; and after what I think is diligence >> > > beyond the call of duty, I still ended up with unqualified people that >> > were >> > > unsuitable and had ZERO people skills. I was absolutely color / >ethnic/ >> > sex >> > > / religion / everything else blind; 7 years of Diversity training >makes >> > that >> > > instinctive. I just wanted the best people; what I got was the best of >a >> > > sorry lot.
>> > > But most of those resumes were massively falsified, as well, including >> as >> > it >> > > turns out, those of the two I picked. That's not bigotry, those are >> real, >> > > factual numbers; last time I looked it up, deriving a percentage >wasn't >> > > considered a discriminatory act under Federal law.
>> > > I should have looked at 1,000 people to fill those two slots, I guess, >> but >> > I >> > > just didn't have time; maybe 20,000. Working 90 hours a week on >> splitting >> > up >> > > one of the world's largest corporations didn't give me that kind of >> time.
>> > > I've been out of work for entirely too long. I guess I better figure >out >> a >> > > better way to lie on my resume; 24 years of experience doesn't seem to >> cut >> > > it; how can I compete with people claiming to be senior, willing to >work >> > for >> > > 15-20% of what I make, and resumes falsified up the wazoo? My career >and >> > job >> > > prospects are sure shot to hell at the moment; who wouldn't hire >someone >> > for >> > > a10th of what I make if they look good on paper.
>> > > So go tell it to the Marines, Niall.
>> > > Britain has far stricter rules about immigrant hiring and visas and >> such, >> > > even if your spouse is British, so have a nice chat with your Uncle >Tony >> > all >> > > about it, and don't preach to people who are wondering how they are >> going >> > to >> > > afford to live because a legal form of "migrant labor" has sucked up >so >> > many >> > > of our jobs. The dot bomb crash and the tech market slowdown does NOT >> > > explain this. $15/hr explains this.
>> > > RSH.
>> > > "damorgan" <dan.mor...@ci.seattle.wa.us> wrote in message >> > > news:3C7A6A56.AC1EB138@ci.seattle.wa.us... >> > > > Speaking as one who has interviewed many hundreds in the U.S. there >is >> > no >> > > > question that fraud exists ... both with nationals and foreign >> > nationals. >> > > And >> > > > both with respect to resumes, references, and education.
>> > > > My feeling about references can be summed up as follows: "Anyone >that >> > > can't find >> > > > three friends to lie for him or her is a pathetic soul. My feeling >> with >> > > respect >> > > > to resumes and education claims doesn't deviate far from that mark.
>> > > > The only way to choose candidates is by interview ... first phone >... >> > then >> > > in >> > > > person. And always with a whiteboard and a combination of prewritten >> and >> > > > spontaneous questions testing everything from basic SQL skills on >up. >> My >> > > > favorite questions are the ones where the correct answer is "You >can't >> > do >> > > that >> > > > in Oracle." They quickly weeds out the fakes.
>> > > > Daniel Morgan
>> > > > Niall Litchfield wrote:
>> > > > > Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I >> > > > > asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to ame( excepting >> > maybe >> > > > > Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge >potential >> > > > > employers,employees or your ability to get hired by
I think and hope everyone has made their point and their peace with everyone. We have enough problems going on in Afghanistan that we don't need another war here as well. So let me divert a little into the more fun/confusing Diversity things I've gone through as a manager over the years ( a manager that knows how to tune UNIX kernels and optimize inixx.ora files, mind you..) First, AT&T, the US military, and most major American companies drive sensitivity to cultural, ethnic, racial, religious,gender, sexual preference, the special issues affecting the handicapped; the even more special issues of "Veterans of Vietnam-era service" with or without handicaps, and other stuff I am sure I have forgotten.
What all these high and mighty people writing and preaching this stuff forgot, was that average Americans (sorry for using the A word, but there IS a reason for it), unless they were raised by wolves, respect the rights and dignity of others from the get go. (Okay, perhaps I should just speak for myself in this matter, though I haven't seen much discrimination in regard to anything in all the places I've been a manager Perhaps because my parents raised me to know that it's what's underneath that counts; perhaps growing up in a community (I'm Presbyterian, not that it matters, except...) of mostly Jewish families, and a lot of my friends and schoolmates had parents or grandparents, with those awful, unforgettable, eerie fading blue tattoos of numbers on their arms.
When you grow up with friends and classmates whose parents or grandparents, by whatever miracle, escaped the indignity, horror, and offense against God of being jammed into standing room only "showers", having crystalline calcium cyanide poured down stacks; the SS were so efficient, using CaCN2, the body heat and perspiration moisture from the crowded victims would release the cyanide gas; Zyklon B was cost-effective, you didn't need acid to release the HCN. And then to be anonymously incinerated like garbage, after of course anything interesting like gold teeth were removed. The crematoria were designed to fuel on the body fat of the victims, to save money on gas for the ovens.
But we do not learn, not all of us. The atrocities committed against Black people in the South taught us nothing. There are Black people that hate Jews, and vice versa. There are 'white supremacists' who seem to hate everyone except those like themselves. There is hatred between immigrant Asians and Black people in mixed neighborhoods. The lynchings, the Holocaust, the violence of human beings behaving like animals because of some difference in the color of their skin, their religiion, their nation of birth, their sexual orientation, or, handicaps, have taught us nothing much as Americans. That is a national shame.
Blowing up churches, or synagogues, or mosqes, who could dream of such things in a country founded on freedom of speech and of religion?
I will close with a piece I wrote some time ago about the matter of Diversity and how it all really works.
*--- The Bell System and Diversity Date: 7/11/01 5:58 PM
Something I have seen not discussed much so far is the radical and pioneering jump that even someone from the Airborne at Fort Bragg wouldn't dare in the Bell System adopting one of the most aggressive and successful diversity programs in corporate history, including the absolute intolerance of discrimination against women, people of color, and because of sexual orientation, the handicapped, or anything else you can imagine.
Apple was among the first, but try the same thing with a corporation employing nearly 300,000 people from all walks of life. It's a lot easier turning a canoe than an aircraft carrier.
When I first read all this in my pile of paperwork my naive young thoughts were "Well, if you can do the job, you can work here, and you have the same rights as anyone else, and if anybody messes with you, you have means of redress."
And then Bell/AT&T got really aggressive about it, placing women in craft shops doing line work and men into Operator Services / TSPS/ NNI and of course there was an uproar.
But in the passing years, women doing installs, men on OSPS, people of color, Veterans with a problem or two (like PTSD etc) or oh, missing both legs, the blind, the deaf, the retarded/learning disabled, people born in another country, gay people, have largely become accepted as a part of life in the Bell System, and have been treated decently and with respect.
This is something Bell Labs won't ever get a patent number on, and Western Electric will never have a COMCODE for.
But it is something to be proud of, that since we were so much a part of America's life, we made America part of us.
> I've already apologized for the direct reference, but apologies to you and > your indian colleagues as well.
> EJ
> Sathish Balas wrote in message ... > >EJ ,
> >From your point "K" , it is obvious that you are referring to Indian > >software professionals . I just want to inform you that you have > >met the wrong people . I have 6+ years Oracle Consulting experience in the > >United States . I have never lied on my resume > >nor had Indian co-workers tell me lies about my work performed at different > >client places . > >-- > >Sathish B > >"EJ" <rodr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message > >news:a58g90$ngb$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net... > >> Resume fraud is at the highest levels that i've seen in the Atlanta area > >> since I became a consultant in 1989 - particularly in the Oracle arena. I > >> can only imagine what it's like in other major cities.
> >> What should you do if your honest resume has you positioned as a strong > >> Oracle professional, and noone is returning your calls ?
> >> A. Send a letter to your Congressman to encourage companies to hire > >> American ( no work visas) ,and also to local recruiting companies to > >recruit > >> local candidates only - much like recruiting companies in Chicago and > >> Cleveland are doing.
> >> B. Be the first one out the box to apply for a posted job. Scour the > >> consulting companies web sites before u waste your time with Dice, > >Monster, > >> or even Computer jobs. I'll have to say that Computerjobs may be the > least > >> bitter of all those lemons. Net-Temps.com isn't bad et all.
> >> C. Call - don't just send a resume
> >> D. Try to follow up on who got the assignment and why u weren't > >considered, > >> didn't get an interview, or even didn't get a call.
> >> E. Take names - Consulting companies have forgotten what common courtesy > >> means...Just a phone call or a return email to say that the position has > >> been closed will do. The surprising thing about this is that in the past > >the > >> no-responses were mom-and-pop operations, but now it's all of them ; > >Matrix, > >> WebGroup, Maxim Group, ManPower, Technisource, and the list goes on...... > >> When the market recovers, they'll be calling you, just don't be calling > >them > >> back, or kindly remind them of when....... :-)
> >> F. Pray that consulting companies have enough technical expertise to know > >a > >> fraud. This is a very severe problem in this industry. I don't think the > >> most qualified people get to be seen because of the volume of Fraudulent > >> resumes; they get overlooked because they're not 1st or 2nd....10th > etc...
> >> G. Back to the old days. I remember that some 12/13 years ago, with only > 5 > >> years experience, even companies like Matrix and Romac wouldn't place me. > >> They said I didn't have enough experience (7-10 years). I wasn't mad then > >> but I'm mad now, that 3 years of experience buys you the right to get a > >> consultant job. I think most of the consulting companies have decided to > >> focus on the $$$$. Remember what your client wants isn't always what's > >good > >> for you - as a consulting company u should know that.
> >> H. Hope you know the recruiter you're working with...... Good luck in > >> training them on IT concepts... Consulting outfits have had tremendous > >> turnover lately.
> >> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many > >> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for > >> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this > >> sounds outlandish and even racist, but I recall during an earlier > >recession > >> while interviewing DBA applicants for a client, I'd received 100 resumes > >and > >> less than 10% had names I could pronounce.
> >> J. Don't apply if you're not "qualified". Experienced Consultants by > >nature > >> are typically overqualified for the assignments they take.
> >> K. Don't abuse the technical reference process. Don't have friends and > >> coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from > >the > >> ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical > references > >> are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......Wrong, they don't won't to know, > >> particularly if they can get their client to $$$$$.
>Grabbed the DBAs by the throat, shoved them in a conference room, and said >"If you EVER treat ANYONE on staff like you did this woman I've worked with, >known, and respected for 3 years, you will be so out of here that if I can't >find a door handy, you will go out the nearest window. And I don't care what >floor we're on at the time. This is AT&T, and man, woman, race, being >handicapped, sexual preference or identity, age or youth, everyone is >treated with respect and courtesy. That's how we do things here, we find it >works out pretty well. This is your first and last warning.."
All I can say RSH.... I wish there were more like you in the world buddy...
Robert
Robert G. Freeman Author Oracle Press's Oracle9i New Features Sybex's Mastering Oracle9i Coriolis' Oracle8 to 8i Upgrade Exam Cram Coriolis' Oracle 7.3 to 8 Upgrade Exam Cram
