Straegy For Developing Application In Modules
Steve
will be built in four modules. As soon as the first module is
done, it will be installed and used while the second module is
being developed. The same for a third and fourth module. The final
application will be an integrated application of all four modules.
I anticipate approximately 100 tables plus the other associated
objects(queries, forms and reports) in each module. My development
work will not be on the same system where the application is being
used. Rather I will develop each module and install it on the
system when complete, integrating each module with previous
modules that have been installed. During the development of the
second module, there will be new queries, forms and reports added
to the front end that are needed for the second module. There
could be additional fields and corresponding relationships added
to the tables in the first module. For sure there will be new
tables and relationships added to the application for the second
module. For sure there will be new relationships needed between
the tables of the first module and the tables of the second
module. I am looking for some recommendations of strategy to use
for installing the second, third and fourth modules.
Installing the new frontend is no problem; the previous frontend
will merely be replaced with the new front end. Installing the new
backend is the problem. The backend from the previous module(s)
will have data that needs to become part of the new backend. Also
new tables and relationships as well as additions to the old
tables and relationships need to be accounted for. All suggestions
on how to deal with this problem will be appreciated.
Steve
Larry Linson
you have to very carefully analyze to determine the changes that have to be
done, and when everyone is off the system (as at night, or at an announced
time), make yourself a copy to work with, in addition to the normal, reguar
backups(skipping this step can make you a very, very unhappy camper if
something goes wrong, as things sometimes do, in manual operations), make
changes to the copy you are working with, test it thoroughly with the new
application part (front end), then replace the old tables/data with the new
one, distribute the new application part, and, when the users report the
problems you overlooked, fix them and repeat the above as needed.
As you are working alone, on a copy, you can use manual or automated
methods, but you should keep a detailed record of exactly what you did, so
you can do some analysis if errors turn up.
"Steve" <san...@penn.com> wrote in message
news:GaEE6.1771$RB3.5...@nntp2.onemain.com...
Allen Browne
is always more difficult. Best approach is going to be to write
code that imports the existing data into the new structure, i.e.
db.Execute "INSERT ...
Be esp. aware of any change in rules that could make the old data
invalid.
You might care to check out a product named Data Pro at:
http://www.ssw.com.au
It's designed to help impliment data changes.
--
Perth, Western Australia
Tips for MS Access users at:
http://odyssey.apana.org.au/~abrowne
Steve
"Larry Linson" <larry....@ntpcug.org> wrote in message
news:_uFE6.368$Fv5.2...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
Steve
"Allen Browne" <abr...@odyssey.apana.org.au> wrote in message
news:3AE39478...@odyssey.apana.org.au...
Steve
"Allen Browne" <abr...@odyssey.apana.org.au> wrote in message
news:3AE39478...@odyssey.apana.org.au...
Lyle Fairfield
q=ginsberg+santus&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rnum=1&seld=910143107&ic=1
"Steve" <san...@penn.com> wrote in
<GaEE6.1771$RB3.5...@nntp2.onemain.com>:
>I will be developing a frontend/backend Access97 application
>that will be built in four modules.
--
Lyle
http://www.cyriv.com/
Steve
You have made your judgment of me without having all the facts.
Didn't you ever wonder about an individual that would use this
newsgroup to publicly slander someone?
Steve
"Lyle Fairfield" <lyle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns908C10156ly...@24.9.0.131...
Lyle Fairfield
"Steve" <san...@penn.com> wrote in
<34iF6.833$5W2.2...@nntp1.onemain.com>:
>Lyle:
>
>You have made your judgment of me without having all the
>facts.
>
Michael (michka) Kaplan
slander either.
Motion seconded Lyle, any discussion before the vote? :-)
--
michka
the only book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
"Steve" <san...@penn.com> wrote in message
news:34iF6.833$5W2.2...@nntp1.onemain.com...
Larry Linson
of the facts and/or explanation of why that warning was wrong.
There are enough people here who've been burned that we find warnings of
that nature quite believable. That's why some/many of us only "work remote"
with people who buy a block of hours, which we work off, then they buy
another block.
And, we aren't nearly as generous with free help to someone who we think has
done one of our colleagues out of his/her "just due".
"Steve" <san...@penn.com> wrote in message
news:34iF6.833$5W2.2...@nntp1.onemain.com...
PC Datasheet
Wouldn't this have been the appropriate question before you
hastily judged me last month and then repeated your judgment again
this week? You're welcome to your opinion after you have the facts
but you placed your judgment on a public forum without any facts
at all.
Look at my response under Larry's response.
Steve
"Lyle Fairfield" <lyle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns908D8BF69ly...@24.9.0.131...
PC Datasheet
You frequently demonstrate some intelligence in your contributions
but show nothing but ignorance in your response here. It's no
laughing matter that I was called a deadbeat and a sleazeball on a
public forum. You use the word proof here but you certainly didn't
need any proof before judging me.
Look at my response under Larry for the facts of what happened.
Steve
"Michael (michka) Kaplan"
<forme...@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:uo$GO$NzAHA.355@cpmsnbbsa07...
Michael (michka) Kaplan
respond in a hostile and insulting manner to all who dare to question the
thyought that does into them. I assure you, however, that all you are doing
is make it less and less likely with each successive post that anyone would
ever be willing to help you.
Do you want to keep going? I can just about guarantee you that the only
reputation being trashed here is your own.
--
michka
the only book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
"PC Datasheet" <pcdat...@penn.com> wrote in message
news:8hmF6.892$5W2.2...@nntp1.onemain.com...
Lyle Fairfield
a) using the newsgroup to solicit business when you posted:
>Send me the addresses of websites containing names and
>addresses of doctors by specialty and I will let you know if
>I can get the data you want into a database and what my fee
>would be. I have experience extracting data from websites.
b) making an entirely inappropriate comment about my Xews indentification string
(lylefairyahoo.com) after I answered a question for you about Newsgroups:
>ooops!! My suspicions have arisen again. I just looked at
>your email server address below. Are you a FAIRY?
c) that you posted over a fake name:
<rla...@bigfoot.com>
d) ... and that Neil Ginsberg accused you of:
>What's the matter, Steve? After taking my work without paying
>me for it you come here with an alias, trying to get some
>help with your stolen project? You might not have scruples,
>but you sure have balls, I'll say that.
>To the NG: This fellow hired me to do a project, and, when
>the project was 90% completed and that 90% complete database
>was submitted to him, he informed me that he didn't want to
>complete the project and wanted his deposit back, even though
>we had an hourly contract and the amount of hours already put
>into the project *and* delivered to him equaled three times
>his deposit.
So, again, what are the facts I am missing? And where is the response to Larry, or for
that matter to any of this?
"PC Datasheet" <pcdat...@penn.com> wrote in
<m9mF6.3119$W91.1...@nntp3.onemain.com>:
>Lyle,
>
>Wouldn't this have been the appropriate question before you
>hastily judged me last month and then repeated your judgment
>again this week? You're welcome to your opinion after you
>have the facts but you placed your judgment on a public forum
>without any facts at all.
>
>Look at my response under Larry's response.
>
>Steve
>
>
>"Lyle Fairfield" <lyle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns908D8BF69ly...@24.9.0.131...
>> What are the facts I do not have, Steve?
>>
>> "Steve" <san...@penn.com> wrote in
>> <34iF6.833$5W2.2...@nntp1.onemain.com>:
>>
>> >Lyle:
>> >
>> >You have made your judgment of me without having all the
>> >facts.
>>
>> >
>> >"Lyle Fairfield" <lyle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >news:Xns908C10156ly...@24.9.0.131...
>> >> http://groups.google.com/groups?
>> >> q=ginsberg+santus&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rnum=1&seld=91014310
>> >> 7&i c=1
PC Datasheet
If you got my previous email, I apologize for sending it
privately. I apparently inadvertently clicked on Reply To Sender
rather than Reply To NewsGroup. I'm pasting it in here for Lyle
and Michael as I told them it would be here. Thank you for your
anticipated understanding.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "PC Datasheet" <pcdat...@penn.com>
To: "Larry Linson" <larry....@ntpcug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Straegy For Developing Application In Modules
Larry:
> There are enough people here who've been burned that we find
warnings
of
that nature quite believable. >
If you had lived back in the time of Christopher Columbus and
would have
seen ships go out to sea and never return, would it have been
"quite
believable" to you that the world was flat? I think not! Your
frequent
contributions to the newsgroup show you to be quite intelligent. I
believe you would have sought out all the evidence before making a
judgment that the world was flat or you would have reserved
judgment.
Why were you then so quick to judge that I am a "deadbeat" with no
evidence other than someone else saying so?
> And, we aren't nearly as generous with free help to someone who
we
think has
done one of our colleagues out of his/her "just due".>
Who are your colleagues? I am a developer like yourself. I have
made
frequent contributions to the newsgroup and I am sure you have
seen my
name on an answer to a post more than once. Am I a colleague of
yours?
Apparently not or you are quick to judge your colleagues and do
not have
the loyalty that you imply above. How many times have you seen the
other
person's name on an answer to a post on the newsgroup?
In regards to what actually happened, the shoe fits both feet. I
previously worked for 16 years as a Project Manager on
multi-million
dollar projects for a large oil company and I also worked 2 years
for a
mechanical contractor on projects not quite as large as the above.
I
know all the hat tricks contractors use to escalate the cost of
projects. It just doesn't happen on large projects but it also
happens
on small projects. The tricks are not just reserved for mechanical
projects; they happen on Access projects also. I'm sure you have
seen it
and have had the opportunity to escalate the cost of a project if
you
chose to. Having seen it and had the opportunity to do it, I'm
sure you
know that "there are enough people here who've been burned that we
find
warnings of that nature quite believable".
You previously made your judgment about me without any evidence on
the
premise of credibilty of what was being said in a public forum so
I am
going to show you some evidence of what really happened.
I was working on a large project and part of the project needed
some
work done in Word Automation. I had no expertise in that area but
felt
that I could pull out Getz's book and other resources and figure
it out.
However I did not have the time to do that, I needed to work on
other
parts of the application, so I went looking for some help with the
Word
Automation. My first query started with the below:
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Vinson" <id_jv...@widaho.net>
To: <pcdat...@penn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:23 AM
Subject: Your project
> Dear Steve,
>
> I finally was able to look over your project proposal. It looks
feasible, using rather tight linking between Access (keeping the
list of
paragraphs) and Word (using Bookmarks in a template Word
document).
>
> Unfortunately for me, tight linkage to Word is not in my area of
expertise. If I were to tackle the project I'd need to spend a
good bit
of time figuring out the groundrules; and as tight as my time is
right
now I wouldn't be able to do so "off the clock" (and certainly
wouldn't
do it "on the clock").
>
> I wish I could help, but for this project I think you would do
much
better to find someone with more Office integration experience;
this
looks like an "off the cuff" problem for someone with that
expertise!
>
> Good luck, and thank you for considering me.
>
> John W. Vinson
> Wysard of Information
John is a highly respected contributor primarily to the
PublicAccess
newsgroup. John was given a detailed writeup of what I needed and
his
above email was in response to me sending the writeup to him.
Three
points in his email are of significance. The first is, "It looks
feasible, using rather tight linking between Access (keeping the
list of
paragraphs) and Word (using Bookmarks in a template Word
document). To
me John attests to the fact that my writeup provided sufficient
details
from which an experienced developer could create what I needed
with
little additional input from me. The second is, ".......I wouldn't
be
able to do so "off the clock" (and certainly wouldn't do it "on
the
clock")." To me John shows a high degree of integrity but at the
same
time this is something a client has a right to expect. The third
is,
"....you would do much better to find someone with more Office
integration experience; this looks like an "off the cuff" problem
for
someone with that expertise!" From a developer's point of view,
John
determined this project was an easy project for someone who knew
Word
automation. Granted he did not have the expertise to do it. I'm
sure you
can relate to this in your experience where you recognize what
needs to
be done although you do not have the expertise to do it but you
can not
morally justify getting the experience "on the clock".
So next I went to this person who presented himself as an
experienced
developer and having the Word Automation expertise to do the
project. He
was given the same detailed description of what I needed. A volley
of
emails then began. After many emails, the following statement was
made
to me in an email,
"Assuming that Option 2 is a go, the revised estimate is 3-5 hours
above
the
original estimate (8-12 hours), making the new estimate 11-17
hours."
In my experience in contracting, in my work now developing Access
and
Excel projects and I'm sure with you, a range estimate means that
the
lower time indicates the minimum amount of time expected, the
higher
time indicates the maximum amount of time expected with the actual
time
ending up somewhere inbetween (possibility at the maximum). Also,
the
contractor has a responsibility to his client to inform him if he
is
going to exceed the estimate.
In the same email, the following statement was made to me in
response to
my question in an email asking if the project would be done on a
friday:
"The end of next week looks good as a timeframe to get it done
by."
It'd be pretty hard to say that this was only an estimate of a
completion date when a specific date was asked in an email and
received
the above response.
Based on the above, a deposit was made to commence the project.
Immediately, another volley of emails began. This was turning out
not to
be the " 'off the cuff' problem for someone with that expertise!"
John
had predicted and that I had expected. My doubts to this person's
qualifications began to surface. By midday on the friday the
project was
to be done I still had not recieved anything so I sent an email
and was
told that it would not be done and that I would receive something
on
saturday. I don't remember now whether I got anything on saturday
or
sunday but By the end of Monday I had received three or four
versions of
the incomplete project. The first version contained errors which I
pointed out and I received back the answer that things were
correct.
Later versions however showed the errors I found to be corrected.
Tuesday morning I received yet another version of the incomplete
project
attached to an email. In the email I was asked to check it over
and the
email also said that all that needed to be done yet was to do the
Word
Automation. The Word Automation was the heart of the project and
it
still was not done!! Midway through checking over that version,
another
version (making it about the sixth one) came attached to an email
and
again the email said that all that needed done was to do the Word
Automation. That's when I pulled the plug!
I've been to New York City more than once and one thing you need
to be
careful of if you ride a taxi is that the driver takes a direct
route to
your destination. When I received that last version of the
incomplete
project, I felt like I had seen all of New York but had still not
reached my destination and the meter was running the whole time.
At that
point the projet was four days past when it was promised to be
done and
the end was not in sight. The part that was done was not what was
promised to be done. In the days to follow, he sent me an Invoice
for a
total of 18.4 hours with 3.6 of these hours being for what he
called
"analysis" and "email". John had said he looked over the proposal
and it
looked feasible. It now took someone claiming to be an experienced
developer with Word Automation expertise 3.6 hours for "analysis"
and
"email". Also, he was claiming a total of 18.4 hours had been
expended
from an estimate of 11 - 17 hours and the Word Automation had
still not
been done.
It's an old contracting hat trick when a contractor is on time and
materials to add up billable hours by barraging the client with
little-needed correspondence under the guise of "analysis". It's
an old
contracting hat trick to submit many versions of incomplete work
under
the guise of "please look this over and tell me if it's what you
want"
especially in this case where 3.6 hours were spent in analysis.
What was
the value of this much analysis when in the end the customer is
asked
"is this what you want?" Finally, it's an old contracting hat
trick to
miss the completion date and later submit incomplete versions of
the
project to keep the project going to amass billable hours.
These are the facts of what happened and it is the absence of
these
facts from which judgments about me were made and expressed in a
public
forum.
Steve Santus
PC Datasheet
A Resource for Access and Excel Help
pcdat...@penn.com
· Design and basic development for new applications
· "Fixes" for existing applications
· Mentoring for do-it-yourselfers who want guidance
· Complete application design and development
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Linson" <larry....@ntpcug.org>
Newsgroups: comp.databases.ms-access
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: Straegy For Developing Application In Modules
> Why don't you tell your side of the story, Steve? I'll read your
statement
> of the facts and/or explanation of why that warning was wrong.
>
> There are enough people here who've been burned that we find
warnings
of
> that nature quite believable. That's why some/many of us only
"work
remote"
> with people who buy a block of hours, which we work off, then
they buy
> another block.
>
> And, we aren't nearly as generous with free help to someone who
we
think has
> done one of our colleagues out of his/her "just due".
"Larry Linson" <larry....@ntpcug.org> wrote in message
news:_1jF6.739$ul5.2...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
PC Datasheet
I apologize that you were not able to find my message under Larry.
I apparently clicked on Reply to Sender rather than Reply to
NewsGroup. I just wrote an apology to Larry for sending him a
private email if he got it and I pasted a copy of my email into a
response under Larry. At the top I pasted the date stamp on my
email to show the time I thought I sent it to Larry earlier before
I responded to you.
About your comments below.
b) Every once in a while you see banter in the newsgroup.
You're right in that what I said was inappropriate but please
believe me that I meant no harm, only friendly (at least that was
my intent) banter. If you would have come back to me or if you did
and I would have seen it and even gave a hint that you were
offended, I would have immediately publicly apologized for the
comment. Since that did not happen, although late, please accept
my apology now. I am not the type to intentionally harm anyone.
a) So, a sincere attempt to help someone makes me a bad guy?
Have you ever posted a question in the newsgroup? Especially one
where the answer is not a one-liner. You'd be surprised at how
many "solicitations to help" you receive and especially surprised
at who is sending the solicitations. Some of those who are
admonishing others are practicing "Do what I say not what I do".
Aside from that, the gentleman responded back to me appreciative
that I had posted my message. We corrresponded a few times, I gave
him some guidance and he went on to get the information he needed
from the web. I never asked for a fee for my help since he went on
to do it himself. I might also mention that I was the only one who
responded to his post.
My post this time was the exception. Many times I have posted very
detailed answers. I hope that you have seen some and know what I
am talking about. I might say though that I have not posted an
answer to the newsgroup since the "incident" until today. I am
undecided about posting future answers due to the treatment I got.
c) I don't recall ever seeing a question posted by you. For
that matter, rarely do I see a question posted by any of the
"gurus". I can't believe that all of you know everything there is
to know about Access and don't occasionally seek outside help. I
don't know if you do, but I recognize a few "gurus" asking
questions under alias names. That does not make anyone who does
this a bad guy! The strategy makes sense. Whether you feel you
have a "guru" image to uphold or you want to maintain a reputation
as a knowledgable resource, asking lots of questions in your own
name won't get you there. Nothing decptive is meant in doing it.
It's been a while now, but if you would go back through the
archive you would see numerous posts to the newsgroup using my
alias of rla...@penn.com and rla...@bigfoot.com when my ISP was
changing hands and later having technical difficulties.
d) That's all you had upon which you based your judgment; only
words!
Steve
"Lyle Fairfield" <lyle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns908DD99C5ly...@24.9.0.131...
PC Datasheet
I apologize that my post did not appear under Larry. I just
checked and it is there now. I sent it prior to my message to you
but apparently clicked on Reply to Sender rather than Reply to
NewsGroup. However, I just got a message from Larry a few minutes
ago and apparently he did not receive it so it must be out in
cyberspace somewhere. I pasted the time stamp to the top of my
message under Larry so you can see what I am saying is true.
BTW, you're welcome to your opinion after you read it; you're not
right or wrong in whatever opinion you arrive at. You were wrong
however in hastily judging me publicly without any facts of what
happened but only having the words of someone slandering another
person in a public forum.
Steve
"Michael (michka) Kaplan"
<forme...@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:u9MXrfQzAHA.273@cpmsnbbsa07...
Larry Linson
remember, the one in this thread who took a neutral position, agreed that
your side of the story should be heard, and suggested you post it here), I
had prepared a six-point response to your suggesting revisions before you
posted here; hoping that you could restate so that people who definitely are
my trusted, valued colleagues would not rip your reply apart. Then it
occurred to me that your e-mail might be only a copy of a posting here in
the newsgroup.
Now, I will comment (and I reach my conclusions solely from your own
statements, not going back to the other party's complaint):
All other arguments aside, when you, as you did, agreed for the
subcontractor to work on a time and materials basis, it was up to you, the
contractor, to establish the parameters -- maximum hours, maximum time
between work product reviews, structure and content of the reviews, and your
responsibility to monitor the work.
You should have established a maximum -- not relied on an estimate, which,
after all, is a guess, albeit perhaps an educated one -- or been prepared to
pay the actual hours invoiced. It is completely unreasonable to take such an
offhand estimate as a "bid" and your discussion indicates you took it as a
"best estimate with fixed upper limit" bid, expecting to benefit from any
efficiency but not pay over a fixed amount. And, you did not state that you
had established a maximum number of hours for which you would pay.
It is perfectly reasonable and not at all uncommon to spend, and charge for,
time to understand the requirements, to research specific needs, and for
time spent communicating, particularly on remote projects.
And, whatever your complaints with the work, it was your responsibility to
monitor it closely enough to know whether it was proceeding according to
plan, whether it was of acceptable quality -- because you agreed to work
with the person on a time and material basis.
If your tolerance factor was that you could not stand to risk five hours, or
ten, then it was your obligation, not the subcontractor's, to arrange to
review the work at those intervals. Most of the people with whom I have
subcontracted either had a higher tolerance than yours apparently was, or
more confidence in my ability, because rarely have we ever reviewed work
product more frequently than weekly and often on a longer interval than
that.
You are lucky that I am not a judge in small claims court hearing this as a
case. Barring other information, I'd rule in favor of your subcontractor.
Finally, you need to address the issues that Lyle raised about your previous
behavior in this newsgroup. Those alone would mitigate against some of the
participants here being willing to help you.
"PC Datasheet" <pcdat...@penn.com> wrote in message
news:qiqF6.3264$W91.1...@nntp3.onemain.com...
PC Datasheet
Thank you for keeping an open mind here; I respect your opinion.
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Steve
"Larry Linson" <larry....@ntpcug.org> wrote in message
news:3WrF6.1774$ul5.5...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
Michael (michka) Kaplan
the whole story of who you are now and what you have done. You are the sort
of person who should not be allowed on computers at all.
There is strong evidence that you have bilked a developer out of their
deserved resources.... if even 1/100 of what was reported is true, I
personally hope you burn in the second lowest level of hell for at least
1000 years.
(The lowest level is reserved for people who abandon kittens).
--
michka
"PC Datasheet" <pcdat...@penn.com> wrote in message
news:yerF6.3286$W91.1...@nntp3.onemain.com...
Lyle Fairfield
enough, eventually we would find SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE about
which we are in 100% agreement! :-)
"Michael \(michka\) Kaplan"
<forme...@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com> wrote in
<#H2aWxVzAHA.369@cpmsnbbsa09>:
>(The lowest level is reserved for people who abandon
>kittens).
--
Lyle
http://www.cyriv.com/
Danny J. Lesandrini
>
What ?!
Are there really people who abandon kittens?
Bastards!
Larry Linson
ought to make it clear to everyone as I have to him: I have offered my
opinion that he was wrong in the incident at hand, based on what he had to
say about it, even without re-reading the original complaint.
But what I am NOT doing, and, of course, none of us CAN do, is to judge him
as a person by that one incident, nor can we divine his motives in that
incident. I believe it is certainly possible that this is one of those
incidents in which both parties fervently believe they are in the right.
It would be outrageous for any of us to say that he set out to rip off the
developer involved, and did, thus making him a "rip-off artist", just as it
was outrageous for Steve to contend that the developer set out to rip him
off, and did, thus making him a "rip-off artist". One or the other or both
or neither may be, in actuality, but we will never be able to determine
which.
"Larry Linson" <larry....@ntpcug.org> wrote in message
news:3WrF6.1774$ul5.5...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...