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Office 365 p1 license clarification
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BobAlston
Oct 29, 2012, 6:00:18 PM10/29/12
to
If you use Office 2013 and Office 365 license for one person, $6 per
month, is there any authentication that web users need to use to access
the web site you build with Access 2013/sharepoint? Can the $6 per
month allow unlimited number of users to use the web site?
Thanks
bob
month, is there any authentication that web users need to use to access
the web site you build with Access 2013/sharepoint? Can the $6 per
month allow unlimited number of users to use the web site?
Thanks
bob
Albert D. Kallal
Oct 29, 2012, 6:53:46 PM10/29/12
to
"BobAlston" wrote in message news:k6mu9a$edv$1...@dont-email.me...
All users that hit the site MUST have a valid logon.
In fact I'm pretty hard pressed to think of any web based system in which
some type of user logon is not required? In other words are you expecting to
allow the wild Internet to update these tables attached to access forms?
Keep in mind that you can invite up to 50 users for free to the site, and
they don't have to be an office 365 (or Live, hotmail) user id.
However they will have to associate e-mail with a live ID for this to work.
(or already have a Hotmail or live id or a "onMicrosoft").
There is not an ability for anonymous users on 365.
In fact I just asked a question yesterday on this, and I'm going to cut and
RE paste my response, since I cover several scenarios here:
===============
I am hard pressed to think of some kind of database on the web that
everybody who comes to the site has able to make modifications to? Or even
use?
So yes, at the end of the day for any user to utilize an Access application
online they will have to logon to the site and as such have a valid sign on
ID and valid permissions you given to them.
(I STRESS THE part YOU HAVE given to them).
You are of course able with office 365 able to invite for free up to 50
users without cost. In fact it is relatively recent that these users don't
have to logon with a live ID either.
What this means is the user can login into your site with their existing
e-mail ID. That logon can be yahoo, Gmail, or joe....@apple.com.
However they will have to go through the process of associating their logon
with a live ID for this to work.
I am not sure if you've ever used this new thing called the Internet? So
using this site here, or office 365 (or Google docs) or in fact just ABOUT
ANY site where there is some type of database content and system I would be
hard pressed to imagine any of those sites not requiring some type of logon?
Unless you're hosting your own server, I don't believe any type of anonymous
logon system can be used.
So at the end of the day you can invite users to your site. As a general
note such users will require a live id (Hotmail, 365 logon, onmicrosoft,
live). And if they don't have a live id, then as noted those users can
associate their existing logon with a live ID. This would then allow them to
log onto your site using their existing e-mail ID.
So they can use their corporate or non Microsoft email as a logon here (you
have to invite them).
It does not clear to me if you're asking to users have to log into the site?
(answer = yes, but that quite much expected).
In the case of AccessHosting? You will have to purchase + logon id's.
So there's no question that sitting down and working out the design of
security and logon and issuing of user logons is an extremely important part
of any web based development system.
In other words in your planning stages if you for example plan have 200
employees and want to use their EXISTING logons, then you can use what is
called "federation". Federation's simply means that all of your internal
corporate issue logons (active directory) will work on the web site, and if
a new employees hired, or removed, or the change their password, it'll
applied to the company logon, and they'll also instantly apply to the web
logon.
I mean obviously if you have hundreds of employees, you don't want to have
to manage this task of users since just the changing of passwords and
managing of users could of itself become a fulltime job.
In fact in your planning stages and sitting down in terms of how uses
security and logon IDs are to be issued and managed for the running of your
web site is often not only the first step, but one of the MOST IMPORTANT
steps that you will make. So this process can take considerable amounts of
time on your part to ascertain what type of security and user authentication
systems you're going to adopt for your web based technologies.
So for example if the website is not for your employees of your company, but
as for external customers, then obviously choosing "federation" as your
security model is not going to work.
And if you need some type of user self-sign up without interaction on your
part? Then obviously even office 365 and the authentication and security
methods provided would not be appropriate.
Last but not least:
Keep in mind that the typical Access database is setup in which you build a
form that and that form is attached to a bunch of rows of data in a table.
When you web enable such an application, the form will CONTINUE to EDIT the
rows of data in the table. In other words the great ability of access to
build forms that lets you edit all the data in the system will continue to
work.
The problem is, that might not be your goal anymore! Access and in fact most
Web based systems do not "OUT OF THE BLUE" or magically start restricting
data to each individual user. You launch a form attached to a table, then
they are editing all data.
So if you need restricted data to each individual user? Then you have to
DESIGN this into your application. In fact if you've ever utilized user
level security in an access application and you ALSO attempted to restrict
data to each individual user, then you'll have an idea of the challenge you
are up against. In other words user level security is a challenge, but the
second part of developing an access application in which each logon user
only sees their data is a far greater of a challenge.
Remember the web based tools do not magically implement this type of data
restriction for each user. YOU the designer of the software that must
implement such restrictions. If your existing application was never designed
with such restrictions in mind, then it might not be appropriate for web
based at all.
However delving in to the methods of security, methods of user
authentication, and what type of Security Technologies you adopt for your
website is far beyond that of a simple post in a newsgroup.
However, to summarize:
When using office 365, there's no anonymous users allowed.
When using office 365, there is no "self" signup ability for office 365 in
which users can come to the site and self serve and build + create their own
logons.
When using office 365, however you can invite users to the site and those
uses as such don't have to logon with an office 365 logon id (but keep in
mind the above mentioned association with alive ID is required).
If you are hosting your own SharePoint server that is running access web
services, then you can adopt a system in which you issue user logons, and
you can issue as many as you want for free. And no special type of
association with any other system is required. This security and user
authentication choice is called forms based authentication (FBA). This
system ALSO ALLOWS SELF SERVE or user creating of logon id if you wish. (you
have to set this up, but it is possible and thus users could in theory "sign
up" to the web site without you having to issue logon's). So again depending
on what type of system and user setup, the CORRECT kind of security system
MUST be analyzed and adopted here. This is not different then determine if
you need Access or SQL server, or if you are delivering pizza and if you
need a gas or diesel truck.
So, the "kind" of users and security you need here is going to determine
what system you will choose for your web site. I mean, if you just taking an
existing Access form and converting it to the web, then likely you want all
your internal users + their existing "logon" to work for this site (you
would not want the wild internet to be able to use that database).
So, the kind of users, the kind of security, the kind of logons - all these
questions have to be asked and analysed before you build any kind of web
site.
I am a big fan of FBA (Forms based authentication), and this means that you
don't have to use internal or what is called active directory users from
your company. This also means the issuing of external user logons does not
give these users permission to use your company network. And in fact these
FBA users are a SEPARATE group of users and logons. And as noted FBA does
open up the possibility of "self serve" or user created logons without you
have to create or invite such users. FBA is not a option for office 365, but
it is if you have your own SharePoint server.
However, as noted, we don't want to get into these areas of security and
authentication methods in this forum since the subject is far too complex
and far beyond that of being able to be answered in this post. So I can no
more explain the details and nuances of relational database theory in this
post, then that of attempting to explain the nuances and choices you have in
regards to security and authentication of users.
However, at the end of the day, unless you're hosting your own SharePoint
server, I don't believe you have a choice for self-signup options. The
closest you have with office 365 is the ability to invite users to your
site.
As noted, depending on the hosting choice you make, this choice will effect
the type of users and logons you can use.
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
In fact I'm pretty hard pressed to think of any web based system in which
some type of user logon is not required? In other words are you expecting to
allow the wild Internet to update these tables attached to access forms?
Keep in mind that you can invite up to 50 users for free to the site, and
they don't have to be an office 365 (or Live, hotmail) user id.
However they will have to associate e-mail with a live ID for this to work.
(or already have a Hotmail or live id or a "onMicrosoft").
There is not an ability for anonymous users on 365.
In fact I just asked a question yesterday on this, and I'm going to cut and
RE paste my response, since I cover several scenarios here:
===============
I am hard pressed to think of some kind of database on the web that
everybody who comes to the site has able to make modifications to? Or even
use?
So yes, at the end of the day for any user to utilize an Access application
online they will have to logon to the site and as such have a valid sign on
ID and valid permissions you given to them.
(I STRESS THE part YOU HAVE given to them).
You are of course able with office 365 able to invite for free up to 50
users without cost. In fact it is relatively recent that these users don't
have to logon with a live ID either.
What this means is the user can login into your site with their existing
e-mail ID. That logon can be yahoo, Gmail, or joe....@apple.com.
However they will have to go through the process of associating their logon
with a live ID for this to work.
I am not sure if you've ever used this new thing called the Internet? So
using this site here, or office 365 (or Google docs) or in fact just ABOUT
ANY site where there is some type of database content and system I would be
hard pressed to imagine any of those sites not requiring some type of logon?
Unless you're hosting your own server, I don't believe any type of anonymous
logon system can be used.
So at the end of the day you can invite users to your site. As a general
note such users will require a live id (Hotmail, 365 logon, onmicrosoft,
live). And if they don't have a live id, then as noted those users can
associate their existing logon with a live ID. This would then allow them to
log onto your site using their existing e-mail ID.
So they can use their corporate or non Microsoft email as a logon here (you
have to invite them).
It does not clear to me if you're asking to users have to log into the site?
(answer = yes, but that quite much expected).
In the case of AccessHosting? You will have to purchase + logon id's.
So there's no question that sitting down and working out the design of
security and logon and issuing of user logons is an extremely important part
of any web based development system.
In other words in your planning stages if you for example plan have 200
employees and want to use their EXISTING logons, then you can use what is
called "federation". Federation's simply means that all of your internal
corporate issue logons (active directory) will work on the web site, and if
a new employees hired, or removed, or the change their password, it'll
applied to the company logon, and they'll also instantly apply to the web
logon.
I mean obviously if you have hundreds of employees, you don't want to have
to manage this task of users since just the changing of passwords and
managing of users could of itself become a fulltime job.
In fact in your planning stages and sitting down in terms of how uses
security and logon IDs are to be issued and managed for the running of your
web site is often not only the first step, but one of the MOST IMPORTANT
steps that you will make. So this process can take considerable amounts of
time on your part to ascertain what type of security and user authentication
systems you're going to adopt for your web based technologies.
So for example if the website is not for your employees of your company, but
as for external customers, then obviously choosing "federation" as your
security model is not going to work.
And if you need some type of user self-sign up without interaction on your
part? Then obviously even office 365 and the authentication and security
methods provided would not be appropriate.
Last but not least:
Keep in mind that the typical Access database is setup in which you build a
form that and that form is attached to a bunch of rows of data in a table.
When you web enable such an application, the form will CONTINUE to EDIT the
rows of data in the table. In other words the great ability of access to
build forms that lets you edit all the data in the system will continue to
work.
The problem is, that might not be your goal anymore! Access and in fact most
Web based systems do not "OUT OF THE BLUE" or magically start restricting
data to each individual user. You launch a form attached to a table, then
they are editing all data.
So if you need restricted data to each individual user? Then you have to
DESIGN this into your application. In fact if you've ever utilized user
level security in an access application and you ALSO attempted to restrict
data to each individual user, then you'll have an idea of the challenge you
are up against. In other words user level security is a challenge, but the
second part of developing an access application in which each logon user
only sees their data is a far greater of a challenge.
Remember the web based tools do not magically implement this type of data
restriction for each user. YOU the designer of the software that must
implement such restrictions. If your existing application was never designed
with such restrictions in mind, then it might not be appropriate for web
based at all.
However delving in to the methods of security, methods of user
authentication, and what type of Security Technologies you adopt for your
website is far beyond that of a simple post in a newsgroup.
However, to summarize:
When using office 365, there's no anonymous users allowed.
When using office 365, there is no "self" signup ability for office 365 in
which users can come to the site and self serve and build + create their own
logons.
When using office 365, however you can invite users to the site and those
uses as such don't have to logon with an office 365 logon id (but keep in
mind the above mentioned association with alive ID is required).
If you are hosting your own SharePoint server that is running access web
services, then you can adopt a system in which you issue user logons, and
you can issue as many as you want for free. And no special type of
association with any other system is required. This security and user
authentication choice is called forms based authentication (FBA). This
system ALSO ALLOWS SELF SERVE or user creating of logon id if you wish. (you
have to set this up, but it is possible and thus users could in theory "sign
up" to the web site without you having to issue logon's). So again depending
on what type of system and user setup, the CORRECT kind of security system
MUST be analyzed and adopted here. This is not different then determine if
you need Access or SQL server, or if you are delivering pizza and if you
need a gas or diesel truck.
So, the "kind" of users and security you need here is going to determine
what system you will choose for your web site. I mean, if you just taking an
existing Access form and converting it to the web, then likely you want all
your internal users + their existing "logon" to work for this site (you
would not want the wild internet to be able to use that database).
So, the kind of users, the kind of security, the kind of logons - all these
questions have to be asked and analysed before you build any kind of web
site.
I am a big fan of FBA (Forms based authentication), and this means that you
don't have to use internal or what is called active directory users from
your company. This also means the issuing of external user logons does not
give these users permission to use your company network. And in fact these
FBA users are a SEPARATE group of users and logons. And as noted FBA does
open up the possibility of "self serve" or user created logons without you
have to create or invite such users. FBA is not a option for office 365, but
it is if you have your own SharePoint server.
However, as noted, we don't want to get into these areas of security and
authentication methods in this forum since the subject is far too complex
and far beyond that of being able to be answered in this post. So I can no
more explain the details and nuances of relational database theory in this
post, then that of attempting to explain the nuances and choices you have in
regards to security and authentication of users.
However, at the end of the day, unless you're hosting your own SharePoint
server, I don't believe you have a choice for self-signup options. The
closest you have with office 365 is the ability to invite users to your
site.
As noted, depending on the hosting choice you make, this choice will effect
the type of users and logons you can use.
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
BobAlston
Oct 29, 2012, 7:27:10 PM10/29/12
to
cridentials but it was not clear about the office 365 licensing.
so if I build a web system using Access 2013 and Office 365 with a P1
license, I could set up 50 users to use the web site for no additional
charge beyond the $6/month.
If I need to allow more than 50 users, is the solution another Office
365 offering? What are my options?
(I ask because such is not clear to me on the Office 365 site.)
I am asking this because I am trying to clarify incorrect claims in a
review of a web development software that mentioned the high cost of
sharepoint as a disadvantage of Access 2013 and Sharepoint. I just hate
it when such comparisons get their facts wrong.
thanks Albert.
Regards,
bob
BobAlston
Oct 31, 2012, 10:59:59 PM10/31/12
to
than 50) different users, for which I need not have them pay any license
and they can use whatever email address they like as long as I properly
address them?
Bob
Albert D. Kallal
Nov 1, 2012, 3:43:52 AM11/1/12
to
"BobAlston" wrote in message news:5091E5AF...@yahoo.com...
>So, with a E3 license can i set up an unlimited number (at least more than
>50) different users
No, I never did mention E3 EVER in my post.
To be fair, when I originally looked at this, the number I recalled reading
was 50 users (that my bad memory working here).
If you wanted to invite more, then you could purchase "bulk" users package.
These bulk external users ARE NOT 365 ACCOUNTS!!!!
So, we still talking about ONE p1 paid user account here.
However, the good (better) news is in fact as far as I can tell, the number
is not and was not 50, but is 500 users.
>, for which I need not have them pay any license and they can use whatever
>email address they like
Yes. The above is correct.
> as long as I properly address them?
Hum, now you 100% complete major huge and have utter lost me on this? I am
not sure what you mean by "properly address them?"
To my simple knowledge here you can invite any user with any email to your
site AS LONG as they associated that email with a live id.
(OR THEY are already using a legal live ID (Hotmail, live, or onmicrosfot)).
This LIVE ID setup and requirement does unfortunately mean THEY have to
FIRST setup their email as a legal LIVE ID. The nice part is they can do
this WITHOUT having to have any kind of live ID. So they can choose to
associate any email with an existing live ID they have OR THEY CAN SIMPLY
choose to create a live ID out of their existing email ID.
So they simply type in their existing email and choose a password for that
email and they are done. This of course does use a CAPTCHA
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPTCHA).
And of course to setup this, they will then have a confirmation email to
their inbox.
This setup process is reasonable quick and painless for these users (note
how I said "reasonable")
On the flip side, this is somewhat of a hassle and pain for them since the
user has to go through the process of setting this up one time.
To be fair, the bonus part of them "having" to do this means now it is THEM
and THOSE PEOPLE that control and manage and change and take care of their
logon ID and their password.
You thus don't have to ever administer these users in terms of lost
passwords, having to re-set passwords etc. So the great part is you never
have to deal with creating their logon's and you NEVER have to worry about
setting their passwords etc. They are the ones that take care of this issue
and they are free to change or re-set their password for their logon.
What this means all users will manage their logon and password on their own.
In a very nice way the fact that THEY have to setup their email ID and setup
a password to work with your site means you don't have to do this! So this
does reduce and save you potential issues and much wasted time having to
deal with forgotten passwords etc. like some systems force you to deal with.
As noted, I never mentioned E3, or having to upgrade the p1 account to a
"higher" account..
Anyway, the number I see now is 500 users. To get another 500?
Oh, golly, I really don't know how that works. I suspect you likely have to
purchase another p1 ID for an additional $6 per month. This would suggest
that your p1 account now has two logons, and you would use the 2nd one to
invite the next 500 users.
I would however ask about how to go beyond 500 users in some/one of the 365
support forms.
It would be an understatement to point out that asking about 365 licensing
issues in an Access forum not going to work well! In fact I would bet you
have a better chance of having questions about writing Oracle store
procedures answered in this newsgroup then licensing 365 questions.
So licensing quite much way out of topic for this group and in fact quite
much out of my area of expertise also!
However, I am kind of glad you asked, since I was quite sure the number is
50 and been stating that to many people (even in public). It now looks like
I am wrong - it is 500 invites for one user - and this does not change
regardless of what account you using (p1, E3 and so on).
--
>So, with a E3 license can i set up an unlimited number (at least more than
>50) different users
To be fair, when I originally looked at this, the number I recalled reading
was 50 users (that my bad memory working here).
If you wanted to invite more, then you could purchase "bulk" users package.
These bulk external users ARE NOT 365 ACCOUNTS!!!!
So, we still talking about ONE p1 paid user account here.
However, the good (better) news is in fact as far as I can tell, the number
is not and was not 50, but is 500 users.
>, for which I need not have them pay any license and they can use whatever
>email address they like
> as long as I properly address them?
not sure what you mean by "properly address them?"
To my simple knowledge here you can invite any user with any email to your
site AS LONG as they associated that email with a live id.
(OR THEY are already using a legal live ID (Hotmail, live, or onmicrosfot)).
This LIVE ID setup and requirement does unfortunately mean THEY have to
FIRST setup their email as a legal LIVE ID. The nice part is they can do
this WITHOUT having to have any kind of live ID. So they can choose to
associate any email with an existing live ID they have OR THEY CAN SIMPLY
choose to create a live ID out of their existing email ID.
So they simply type in their existing email and choose a password for that
email and they are done. This of course does use a CAPTCHA
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPTCHA).
And of course to setup this, they will then have a confirmation email to
their inbox.
This setup process is reasonable quick and painless for these users (note
how I said "reasonable")
On the flip side, this is somewhat of a hassle and pain for them since the
user has to go through the process of setting this up one time.
To be fair, the bonus part of them "having" to do this means now it is THEM
and THOSE PEOPLE that control and manage and change and take care of their
logon ID and their password.
You thus don't have to ever administer these users in terms of lost
passwords, having to re-set passwords etc. So the great part is you never
have to deal with creating their logon's and you NEVER have to worry about
setting their passwords etc. They are the ones that take care of this issue
and they are free to change or re-set their password for their logon.
What this means all users will manage their logon and password on their own.
In a very nice way the fact that THEY have to setup their email ID and setup
a password to work with your site means you don't have to do this! So this
does reduce and save you potential issues and much wasted time having to
deal with forgotten passwords etc. like some systems force you to deal with.
As noted, I never mentioned E3, or having to upgrade the p1 account to a
"higher" account..
Anyway, the number I see now is 500 users. To get another 500?
Oh, golly, I really don't know how that works. I suspect you likely have to
purchase another p1 ID for an additional $6 per month. This would suggest
that your p1 account now has two logons, and you would use the 2nd one to
invite the next 500 users.
I would however ask about how to go beyond 500 users in some/one of the 365
support forms.
It would be an understatement to point out that asking about 365 licensing
issues in an Access forum not going to work well! In fact I would bet you
have a better chance of having questions about writing Oracle store
procedures answered in this newsgroup then licensing 365 questions.
So licensing quite much way out of topic for this group and in fact quite
much out of my area of expertise also!
However, I am kind of glad you asked, since I was quite sure the number is
50 and been stating that to many people (even in public). It now looks like
I am wrong - it is 500 invites for one user - and this does not change
regardless of what account you using (p1, E3 and so on).
--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
PleaseNoS...@msn.com
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
Neil
Nov 28, 2012, 9:47:54 PM11/28/12
to
up to 500 users per account, as long as the e-mail is associated with a
Live ID, or is a Live ID e-mail account itself. However, I had trouble
getting this to work.
On my Office 365-based account, if a non-logged-in user tries to do
anything (e.g., select a value from a dropdown) which triggers a macro,
they get an error message. Once they log in, it works fine. So that's as
to be expected.
However, I created a Hotmail account for myself, added that e-mail
address to my site, and gave that e-mail address full permissions to use
the site. However, when I logged into my SharePoint site using the
Hotmail account I had created, I got the same error messages that a
non-logged-in user gets, even though I was logged into Hotmail, and I
was logged into my SharePoint site using the Hotmail account.
I even tried bumping up the Hotmail account's user permissions to admin
level, but it didn't affect anything. I simply could not get the site to
recognize the Hotmail user account.
A person I work with on the site did the same - created a Hotmail
account, and then I gave that account full permissions to the site. Same
results. Kept getting error messages.
In both cases, the site showed the Hotmail account as being logged into
the site. But it would function in the same way it does when a
non-logged-in user uses the site - throwing an error whenever an action
was performed. When we logged in using our Office 365 OnMicrosoft
e-mails (both of which had been added to the site), the site worked
perfectly. No problems. But it wouldn't work with the Hotmail logins. (I
even waited a few days and tried again, thinking it might take time for
the system to "recognize" the logins; but no luck.)
I did find, though, that you can use an Office 365 account from multiple
login points. The client has like 3-4 people who might access the web
site. So we are planning on having them have their own Office 365
account, and just use that single login between their 3-4 people who
would access the site. Do you see any problems with this approach? Do
you know of any limitations with using a single Office 365 login from
multiple points simultaneously? (I, personally, was able to login
simultaneously from 3 machines without any problem. All three logins
remained active.)
~
On another, more philosophical note, I agree that people should have
logins to modify data. However, it would be great if there could be a
"Guest" account (with optional password) that could be used for people
who just want to VIEW data. Would be great to be able to say, "If you
want to look at the data, just go to the site, and log in using blah
blah blah," and then they have access to view the data, but not edit it.
That would be great, IMO, and, frankly, I don't know why they don't do
that. They could still restrict the number of people logging in at once,
so it wouldn't be open to the "whole world" at once.
Anyway, just some thoughts on the matter.
Thanks,
Neil
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