MS Access forum
dBNovice
can get additional info about dB design with Access.
mike noel
bad names. Maybe someday, but for now I recommend you look elsewhere...
Randy Harris
"mike noel" <mike...@gci.net> wrote in message
news:43A1F2F9...@gci.net...
> Not here. "Experts" to busy "Yelling" at each other and calling newbies
> bad names. Maybe someday, but for now I recommend you look elsewhere...
That's nonsense.
>
> dBNovice wrote:
> > Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I
> > can get additional info about dB design with Access.
> >
This is an excellent resource for novices. You'll find a lot of very
helpful people here. Post your questions, you'll see.
--
Randy Harris
tech at promail dot com
I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember.
fredg
> Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I
> can get additional info about dB design with Access.
There is nothing wrong with asking here. You'll most likely get the
same high quality answers as you would get at any of the Microsoft
sponsored newsgroups which all begin with
Microsoft.Public.Access
Microsoft.Public.Access.Forms
Microsoft.Public.Access.TableDesign
etc.
If you have a newsreader, it is best to connect through that reader.
If you only have access through the web, go to www.microsoft.com and
click on links to Communities, then Newsgroups, then Office, finally
Access.
--
Fred
Please respond only to this newsgroup.
I do not reply to personal e-mail
Lyle Fairfield
their free utilities; while they are free, there is often a better one
that costs, of course!
PC Datasheet
This responder and his friends are continually polluting the newsgroups with
their garbage.
A frequent responder here calls the whole bunch of them "losers".
--
PC Datasheet
Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications
Over 1050 users have come from the newsgroups trusting me and requesting
help.
reso...@pcdatasheet.com
"Randy Harris" <ra...@SpamFree.com> wrote in message
news:Iwmof.41327$D13....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
Tim Marshall
> calling newbies
> bad names.
I don't recall seeing anything like that. Perhaps you can provide a
thread subject?
> Maybe someday, but for now I recommend you look elsewhere...
For trying to steer a newbie away from a resource as good as cdma, I
suggest you need a good yelling at.
--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "Whatcha doin?" - Ditto "TIM-MAY!!" - Me
Rob Oldfield
thread may well degenerate into another flamefest. If so, it has nothing to
do with you. It's just an ongoing battle between PC Datasheet and reality.
"fredg" <fgut...@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:4ble0q9en60b.gtcmsj7hdhyb$.dlg@40tude.net...
Randy Harris
"Rob Oldfield" <bl...@blah.com> wrote in message
news:43a20626$0$29574$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
> Just agreeing with fred, but would like to add, to dbNovice, that this
> thread may well degenerate into another flamefest. If so, it has nothing
to
> do with you. It's just an ongoing battle between PC Datasheet and
reality.
>
I was hoping that might be avoided, that's why I did not respond to the post
from the troll.
John Marshall, MVP
news:kbnof.5077$3Z....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> This responder and his friends are continually polluting the newsgroups
> with their garbage.
So you admit to polluting the newsgroups?
> A frequent responder here calls the whole bunch of them "losers".
Yourself?
John... Visio MVP
PC Datasheet
that the frequent responder to the newsgroups called "losers". There are
still s few more out there. We'll see how long it takes for all of them to
congrgate here.
--
PC Datasheet
Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications
Over 1050 users have come from the newsgroups trusting me and requesting
help.
reso...@pcdatasheet.com
"John Marshall, MVP" <lanc...@stonehenge.ca> wrote in message
news:VeWdnY6t_Li...@magma.ca...
PC Datasheet
You're chastising Mike for telling the truth but you ignore the rampant
pollution of the newsgroups by Arno R and his bunch of losers. Start yelling
where yelling is needed. If you and others yelled at those losers Mike would
not be making his observation. Leave Mike alone for telling the truth!!
--
PC Datasheet
Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications
Over 1050 users have come from the newsgroups trusting me and requesting
help.
reso...@pcdatasheet.com
"Tim Marshall" <TIMMY!@PurplePandaChasers.Moertherium> wrote in message
news:dnsvo5$4ed$1...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca...
PC Datasheet
--
PC Datasheet
Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications
Over 1050 users have come from the newsgroups trusting me and requesting
help.
reso...@pcdatasheet.com
"Rob Oldfield" <bl...@blah.com> wrote in message
news:43a20626$0$29574$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
PC Datasheet
--
PC Datasheet
Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications
Over 1050 users have come from the newsgroups trusting me and requesting
help.
reso...@pcdatasheet.com
"Randy Harris" <ra...@SpamFree.com> wrote in message
news:wPnof.41459$D13....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
pietl...@hotmail.com
your website, so prospective clients can see what you're *really* like?
Not that what I say will make any difference whatsoever, but don't you
think provoking people and then responding to their attacks is a waste
of time? I mean, don't you have something better to do?
mike noel
directly. I don't make a habit of involving myself in the muck you may
be observing. And while the group is pretty polluted it does have some
really knowledgeable people and you may be able to get some help there.
But you're most likely to get help with really specific questions. Broad
questions like "how to design a database with Access" are not likely to
get you much more than cat calls and vendor come-ons.
My advice would be to go to a used book store and by spend $5 for access
2000 course (like the Shelly Cashman series one I found a few years ago)
then spend a few solid days just "doing" the book. Finish that and
you'll be ready to do your own "design" and you'll be asking the kind of
specific questions on the forum than might get you good answers.
Good Luck!
John Mishefske
> Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I
> can get additional info about dB design with Access.
>
There is information here in this group that was learned through years of experience that
would be very difficult to find elsewhere. However, sometimes the noise/signal ratio is a
bit high.
Check out UtterAccess. Friendly and helpful folks there.
--
'---------------
'John Mishefske
'---------------
Jeff Conrad
http://home.bendbroadband.com/conradsystems/accessjunkie/resources.html
--
Jeff Conrad
Access Junkie - MVP
http://home.bendbroadband.com/conradsystems/accessjunkie.html
http://www.access.qbuilt.com/html/articles.html
"dBNovice" wrote in message:
news:1134685732....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I
> can get additional info about dB design with Access.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Keith W
> Tim,
>
> You're chastising Mike for telling the truth but you ignore the rampant
> pollution of the newsgroups by Arno R and his bunch of losers. Start
> yelling where yelling is needed. If you and others yelled at those losers
> Mike would not be making his observation. Leave Mike alone for telling the
> truth!!
>
ignore this question for ever. Answer it now.
Keith W
news:1134685732....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Does anyone know a good site where I can find a MS Access forum so I
> can get additional info about dB design with Access.
>
Keith W
> Here's another one of the bunch of losers!
>
you're continually trying to defend yourself on here? I put it to you that
you have very little work, are struggling with large debts and try to drum
up business here to mitigate your position. Why else would you be so bad
tempered all the time?
Tim Marshall
> You're chastising Mike for telling the truth
No, I'm chastizing him for trying to chase away a newbie. Rather like
standing at the edge of an oasis and telling a traveller looking for
water there's none there. Contrary and nasty minded, actually.
> but you ignore the rampant
> pollution of the newsgroups by Arno R and his bunch of losers.
The only "pollution" they are causing is protesting what they see as
your abuse of the group. Assuming they don't know you personally and
you are not a cruel person who killed their puppies when they were
children, don't you think it interesting they focus their energy on you?
Why would that be? Why would total strangers pick you out of all of us?
> not be making his observation. Leave Mike alone for telling the truth!!
I think you should leave Arno et al alone for telling the truth.
You just don't seem to get it and it appears to me that you are soaking
all this in and basking in it.
I'll leave you to howl in the darkness.
Arno R
"Tim Marshall" <TIMMY!@PurplePandaChasers.Moertherium> schreef in bericht news:dnueb5$8g3$1...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca...
> You just don't seem to get it and it appears to me that you are soaking
> all this in and basking in it.
IMO this is a good observation Tim. It seems that Steve kind of enjoys all this??
Every time things seem to have cooled down a bit Steve is the one who 'activates' the fire.
It appears to me that he is very destructive at the moment. He thinks he will gain by doing this??
> I'll leave you to howl in the darkness.
Indeed it seems best to totally IGNORE him I guess.
I see no point in arguing with him. He simply does not want to understand.
Arno R
Randy Harris
"Keith W" <he...@there.com> wrote in message
news:43a27cd6$1...@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
Hmmm.... Good observation. I suspect you might be right.
David W. Fenton
> "Rob Oldfield" <bl...@blah.com> wrote in message
> news:43a20626$0$29574$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
>> Just agreeing with fred, but would like to add, to dbNovice, that
>> this thread may well degenerate into another flamefest. If so,
>> it has nothing
> to
>> do with you. It's just an ongoing battle between PC Datasheet
>> and
> reality.
>>
>
>
> I was hoping that might be avoided, that's why I did not respond
> to the post from the troll.
If you two didn't discuss the subject, those of us who have Steve
killfiled wouldn't know about it at all.
Hint, hint.
You can't put out a fire by pouring gasoline on it.
--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
David W. Fenton
> Broad
> questions like "how to design a database with Access" are not
> likely to get you much more than cat calls and vendor come-ons.
I consider that a *good* thing.
Why would criticism of such a poorly-framed question not be the
correct response?
David W. Fenton
[nothing at all worth reading]
If this kind of thing happens again, you're going in my kilfile
along with Steve.
David W. Fenton
[nothing worth reading]
If this kind of thread occurs again, with you stirring up sh*t were
there's no justification for doing so, then you'll end up in my
killfile along with Steve.
Arno R
"David W. Fenton" <XXXu...@dfenton.com.invalid> schreef in bericht news:Xns972EB15F41E4Df9...@127.0.0.1...
>
> If this kind of thing happens again, you're going in my kilfile
> along with Steve.
>
Maybe if David continues to threathen people here who post something he does not like, people might start to beg him to be killfiled ...
Arno R
mike noel
"shyster" reference is to me and my free utility at
http://home.gci.net/~mike-noel/CompareEM - if not, please ignore this,
otherwise I have to wonder - what the h*ll's wrong with FREE????
Cause if there is something wrong I'd like to fix it.
FREE doesn't mean bad, and the fact that I also offer an enhanced
version (which I do not promote here and have never before even
mentioned in a post on this forum) does not detract from the value of
what I am giving away.
Why are you calling me a shyster? Am I being extremely wrong headed
here??????????????????
Tim Marshall
> If this kind of thing happens again, you're going in my kilfile
> along with Steve.
Eh? I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying it's OK for a poster to
go chasing off newbies?
I understand your frustration over this whole business of which this
thread seems to be a spin off from the PCD debates. Perhaps it's the
stress of the season getting to too many of us. I've spent more time
the past couple of weeks participating in non-Access debates than is good.
Rob Oldfield
news:Xns972EB0F3BA107f9...@127.0.0.1...
> "Randy Harris" <ra...@SpamFree.com> wrote in
> news:wPnof.41459$D13....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:
>
> > "Rob Oldfield" <bl...@blah.com> wrote in message
> > news:43a20626$0$29574$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
> >> Just agreeing with fred, but would like to add, to dbNovice, that
> >> this thread may well degenerate into another flamefest. If so,
> >> it has nothing
> > to
> >> do with you. It's just an ongoing battle between PC Datasheet
> >> and
> > reality.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I was hoping that might be avoided, that's why I did not respond
> > to the post from the troll.
>
> If you two didn't discuss the subject, those of us who have Steve
> killfiled wouldn't know about it at all.
>
True. But it would also leave Steve free to abuse the newsgroups with no
intervention. Both ways have their good and bad points, but I prefer not to
just sit on the sidelines and ignore the fact that it's happening.
mike noel
newbie is just gonna get slammed when he asks a newbie question
shouldn't we send him somewhere where he'll get a better reception, or
failing that, at least warn him what he faces here?
Keith
> "Keith W" <he...@there.com> wrote in
> news:43a27...@glkas0286.greenlnk.net:
>
> [nothing worth reading]
>
> If this kind of thread occurs again, with you stirring up sh*t were
> there's no justification for doing so, then you'll end up in my
> killfile along with Steve.
>
And that would affect me how? What I wrote I believe to be true, the
profile fits perfectly. The guy is desperate to claw in money from
whatever unscrupulous methods he sees fit.
Lyle Fairfield
> David W. Fenton wrote:
> > If this kind of thread occurs again, with you stirring up sh*t were
> > there's no justification for doing so, then you'll end up in my
> > killfile along with Steve.
> And that would affect me how?
May we guess?
My guesses are:
Improved blood pressure readings;
The same as a small glass of Dry Sack before bedtime;
A greater appreciation of beautiful sunrises;
A significant other saying, "You've been sooooooo sweet lately; you're
going to get a special reward tonight!".
Keith
> Keith wrote:
>
>
>
>>And that would affect me how?
>
>
> May we guess?
>
> My guesses are:
>
> Improved blood pressure readings;
> The same as a small glass of Dry Sack before bedtime;
> A greater appreciation of beautiful sunrises;
> A significant other saying, "You've been sooooooo sweet lately; you're
> going to get a special reward tonight!".
>
David W. Fenton
> "David W. Fenton" <XXXu...@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message
>> If you two didn't discuss the subject, those of us who have Steve
>> killfiled wouldn't know about it at all.
>
> True. But it would also leave Steve free to abuse the newsgroups
> with no intervention. Both ways have their good and bad points,
> but I prefer not to just sit on the sidelines and ignore the fact
> that it's happening.
Right now, your posts stirring the pot are much more of an annoyance
to me than Steve's advertising, which I never noticed in the first
place, and which I now don't see at all because I"ve killfiled him
entirely.
Grow up.
Steve is not forcing you to read his posts.
And one advertiser will not lead to an influx of spam. Steve has
been posting this way for months now and there has been no upsurge
in advertising in the newsgroup.
Indeed, it is almost irrefutable that 99% of the advertising in the
newsgroup is drive-by spam, posted by people who are not
participants in the newsgroup. Steve is the only regular poster who
advertises, against the policy of the newsgroup.
I suspect that were a newbie to arrive with an ad in his sig,
someone would point him to the FAQ and advise him not to advertise.
99% of those people would likely delete the advertising. The other
1% might say "well, Steve does it" and you could point them to
Google to see the massive dispute over Steve's advertising and show
the newbie that it's a bad thing.
Problem solved, and there's no need to continue stirring the pot.
Last of all, in *this* thread, Steve was *not* involved until you
and your compatriots gratuitously introduced him into the thread.
It's one thing to respond to Steve when he offends, it's entirely
another to make a thread about Steve when he hasn't been
participating in it. This latter is unconscionable in my opinion.
David W. Fenton
> David W. Fenton wrote:
>> mike noel <mike...@gci.net> wrote in
>> news:43A23C90...@gci.net:
>>
>>>Broad
>>>questions like "how to design a database with Access" are not
>>>likely to get you much more than cat calls and vendor come-ons.
>>
>> I consider that a *good* thing.
>>
>> Why would criticism of such a poorly-framed question not be the
>> correct response?
>>
>
> Which of course is the reason I replied to him as I initially did.
> If a newbie is just gonna get slammed when he asks a newbie
> question shouldn't we send him somewhere where he'll get a better
> reception, or failing that, at least warn him what he faces here?
Eh?
A newbie is not going to get "slammed" in any event. If his question
is badly worded or confusing, people will likely try to answer it as
best they can and suggest that more detail is needed.
This is what happens *all the time* in this newsgroup. A perfect
recent example of this is the thread "Loosing Db connection?!?!?!"
where it was not at all clear what was going on from the context.
Some people criticized the code (which is not the same thing as
attacking the poster), others attempted to answer, but most
criticized the framing of the question. I don't know if the OP got a
working resolution or not, but it was not for wont of trying.
David W. Fenton
> David W. Fenton wrote:
>
>> If this kind of thing happens again, you're going in my kilfile
>> along with Steve.
>
> Eh? I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying it's OK for a
> poster to go chasing off newbies?
>
> I understand your frustration over this whole business of which
> this thread seems to be a spin off from the PCD debates. Perhaps
> it's the stress of the season getting to too many of us. I've
> spent more time the past couple of weeks participating in
> non-Access debates than is good.
Well, then -- STOP.
You can't control Steve, but you *can* control yourself.
Please, for everyone's benefit -- DO SO.
David W. Fenton
news:do0mij$9t2$1...@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com:
Well, I'm one of a group of regular posters who contributes a lot of
replies to the group. I think some percentage of my replies are
worthwhile (though certainly not all of them, of course). If you're
in my killfile, I won't be answering helping with any problems you
might post.
Of course, except for the subject of PC Datasheet, I don't recognize
you as someone who contributes to the newsgroup at all, either in
asking questions or in answering them, so perhaps it would be no
loss to have me (or anyone else) killfile you.
But if I'm contemplating killfiling you, it may very well be that
some large number of newsgroup participants who could potentially
help you with your Access problems have concluded that you're not
worth reading, and has already killfiled you.
To me, this dispute looks like the Vietnam-era "burning down the
village to save it." By attempting to "save" CDMA by going after
Steve, you're introducing a huge amount of noise that is more
disruptive of overall newsgroup traffic than the offense you are
trying to combat.
Here's a free clue:
Steve is not going to change.
Get used to.
Killfile him and get on with your life.
David W. Fenton
> Believing as I do in the adage "if the foo sh*ts wear it" I expect
> your "shyster" reference is to me and my free utility at
> http://home.gci.net/~mike-noel/CompareEM - if not, please ignore
> this, otherwise I have to wonder - what the h*ll's wrong with
> FREE????
>
> Cause if there is something wrong I'd like to fix it.
How long since you've updated it? Lyle has the opinion that old code
that works fine somehow "rusts" and should be replaced with new
code.
Or, at least, that's what he's implied by criticizing working
solutions posted here that use techniques that have worked in Access
and VB for nearly 10 years.
Lyle Fairfield
David. May I suggest that we use the acronym ILO for In Lyle's Opinion
so that anyone else who is so gifted can make my opinion known easily?
Arno R
"David W. Fenton" <XXXu...@dfenton.com.invalid> schreef in bericht news:Xns972FA2840A41Af9...@127.0.0.1...
> Right now, your posts stirring the pot are much more of an annoyance
> to me than Steve's advertising, which I never noticed in the first
> place
Yes you were totally blind indeed.
> I suspect that were a newbie to arrive with an ad in his sig,
> someone would point him to the FAQ and advise him not to advertise.
> 99% of those people would likely delete the advertising. The other
> 1% might say "well, Steve does it" and you could point them to
> Google to see the massive dispute over Steve's advertising and show
> the newbie that it's a bad thing.
>
> Problem solved, and there's no need to continue stirring the pot.
No need for your posts indeed. In this thread alone I count 9! posts from you only...
and not much you say here is worth reading...
> Last of all, in *this* thread, Steve was *not* involved until you
> and your compatriots gratuitously introduced him into the thread.
This is *not true at all*.
Obviously you have still problems with your eyes, and/or you are not reading the full thread.
> It's one thing to respond to Steve when he offends, it's entirely
> another to make a thread about Steve when he hasn't been
> participating in it. This latter is unconscionable in my opinion.
Your interfering here is 'stirring the pot'.
But since you killfiled me you won't see this message. Others will I hope.
Arno R
Randy Harris
"mike noel" <mike...@gci.net> wrote in message
news:43A39669...@gci.net...
IMO - this entire thread was launched by a rather effectively crafted wind
up. There never was a question asked.
To the best of my recollection, CDMA has *never* been a place where newbies
have been slammed. The proposed reply above, "Broad questions..." would be
appropriate for such a poorly stated question, but I can't see how that
could be termed slamming. That was not, however, the tenor of Mike's
initial reply in this thread. Warning away a newbie from CDMA with a threat
of "calling newbies bad names" is not accurate, nor helpful for the newbie.
--
Randy Harris
tech at promail dot com
I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember.
Randy Harris
news:43a4840c$0$10078$ba62...@text.nova.planet.nl...
"David W. Fenton" <XXXu...@dfenton.com.invalid> schreef in bericht
news:Xns972FA2840A41Af9...@127.0.0.1...
>> Last of all, in *this* thread, Steve was *not* involved until you
>> and your compatriots gratuitously introduced him into the thread.
>This is *not true at all*.
>Obviously you have still problems with your eyes, and/or you are not
reading the full thread.
David,
Arno is absolutely right on this point. Perhaps you missed it because of
having killfiled Steve. There had been no mention whatever of pcdatasheet
or Steve in this thread until he chose to post his "loser" messages.
Rob Oldfield
> "Rob Oldfield" <bl...@blah.com> wrote in
> news:43a377e6$0$23289$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk:
>
> > "David W. Fenton" <XXXu...@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message
>
> >> If you two didn't discuss the subject, those of us who have Steve
> >> killfiled wouldn't know about it at all.
> >
> > True. But it would also leave Steve free to abuse the newsgroups
> > with no intervention. Both ways have their good and bad points,
> > but I prefer not to just sit on the sidelines and ignore the fact
> > that it's happening.
>
> Right now, your posts stirring the pot are much more of an annoyance
> to me than Steve's advertising, which I never noticed in the first
> place, and which I now don't see at all because I"ve killfiled him
> entirely.
>
> Grow up.
There's a problem. I'm choosing not to ignore it, you are. Each approach
has its place. I would however suggest that the 'ignore it' line is the one
which smacks more of a lack of maturity.
>
> Steve is not forcing you to read his posts.
>
> And one advertiser will not lead to an influx of spam. Steve has
> been posting this way for months now and there has been no upsurge
> in advertising in the newsgroup.
>
> Indeed, it is almost irrefutable that 99% of the advertising in the
> newsgroup is drive-by spam, posted by people who are not
> participants in the newsgroup. Steve is the only regular poster who
> advertises, against the policy of the newsgroup.
>
> I suspect that were a newbie to arrive with an ad in his sig,
> someone would point him to the FAQ and advise him not to advertise.
> 99% of those people would likely delete the advertising. The other
> 1% might say "well, Steve does it" and you could point them to
> Google to see the massive dispute over Steve's advertising and show
> the newbie that it's a bad thing.
>
> Problem solved, and there's no need to continue stirring the pot.
I think you're misunderstanding the problem, or at least what you think I
think it is. The problem is Steve. Nothing else.
>
> Last of all, in *this* thread, Steve was *not* involved until you
> and your compatriots gratuitously introduced him into the thread.
> It's one thing to respond to Steve when he offends, it's entirely
> another to make a thread about Steve when he hasn't been
> participating in it. This latter is unconscionable in my opinion.
>
I don't have any 'compatriots' on this issue. I have my opinion and what I
do is due to that opinion. I'd say that your general idea in this paragraph
is correct, and it's something that I would avoid doing. You may want to
recheck the thread before you start blaming me for it.
But getting into flames between those who ignore Steve, and those who oppose
him by posting is a little pointless I think. Should we just agree to
disagree on this one?
Lyle Fairfield
In Canada
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
a) freedom of conscience and religion;
b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including
freedom of the press and other media of communication;
c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
d) freedom of association.
I choose to exercise my right to these freedoms.
On the other hand, when we post in CDMA we agree, or implicitly agree
to be bound by its charter. It states
The following are specifically forbidden in the CDMA newsgroup:
* Advertising of any kind, even if the product is free, a demo, or
otherwise. You may answer a question with a link to a commercial site
which pertains to the question. You may also add a phrase and/or link
in your signature.
...
The problem with this rule is that there is no mechanism to help us
decide if a commercial site pertains to a question.
Since my site is about Access and all posts here should be about Access
then, I suppose, I could argue that I could answer them all with a link
to my site.
I do not like sites which invite one to visit for a free utility and
also advertise a more advanced one which is not free. It reminds me of
"bait and switch" tactics.
And I do not like someone who has contributed almost nothing to CDMA
and who denigrates it. I do not like someone who e-mails implied
threats to me. In other words, I do not like you.
Is "shyster" too strong a word to describe someone who posts a link to
his/her own site to answer questions which may or may not clearly
pertain to the question? Is it too strong a word for someone who has
posted here only a few times, has answered almost no technical
questions (or none at all) and who has mentioned his free utility in
the majority of his posts?
I don't know. I do know that it reflects my opinion.
Keith
> Keith <he...@there.com> wrote in
> news:do0mij$9t2$1...@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com:
>
>>the profile fits perfectly. The guy is desperate to claw in money
>>from whatever unscrupulous methods he sees fit.
>
>
> Well, I'm one of a group of regular posters who contributes a lot of
> replies to the group. I think some percentage of my replies are
> worthwhile (though certainly not all of them, of course).
You have indeed helped me in the past for which I am grateful.
> If you're
> in my killfile, I won't be answering helping with any problems you
> might post.
There's always someone else David.
>
> Of course, except for the subject of PC Datasheet, I don't recognize
> you as someone who contributes to the newsgroup at all, either in
> asking questions or in answering them, so perhaps it would be no
> loss to have me (or anyone else) killfile you.
I have been a regular poster for 7 years, both in questions and answers,
as a simple search of several of the Access groups (not just this one)
will reveal. At least two MVPs have links to my Security example on
their web sites.
>
> But if I'm contemplating killfiling you, it may very well be that
> some large number of newsgroup participants who could potentially
> help you with your Access problems have concluded that you're not
> worth reading, and has already killfiled you.
I answer more questions than I ask. It's their prerogative to KF anyone
they like but it may also be their loss.
>
> To me, this dispute looks like the Vietnam-era "burning down the
> village to save it." By attempting to "save" CDMA by going after
> Steve, you're introducing a huge amount of noise that is more
> disruptive of overall newsgroup traffic than the offense you are
> trying to combat.
But it will hopefully put off other would-be offenders. I'd hate to see
this useful recourse lost in spam.
>
> Here's a free clue:
Please don't patronise me David, I don't need it.
>
> Steve is not going to change.
That's rather defeatist, enough complaints to his ISP will ensure he does.
>
> Get used to.
>
> Killfile him and get on with your life.
>
This issue takes up very little of my time I'm happy to report.
David W. Fenton
> "David W. Fenton" <XXXu...@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Xns972FA2840A41Af9...@127.0.0.1...
>> "Rob Oldfield" <bl...@blah.com> wrote in
>> news:43a377e6$0$23289$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk:
>>
>> > "David W. Fenton" <XXXu...@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in
>> > message
>>
>> >> If you two didn't discuss the subject, those of us who have
>> >> Steve killfiled wouldn't know about it at all.
>> >
>> > True. But it would also leave Steve free to abuse the
>> > newsgroups with no intervention. Both ways have their good and
>> > bad points, but I prefer not to just sit on the sidelines and
>> > ignore the fact that it's happening.
>>
>> Right now, your posts stirring the pot are much more of an
>> annoyance to me than Steve's advertising, which I never noticed
>> in the first place, and which I now don't see at all because I"ve
>> killfiled him entirely.
>>
>> Grow up.
>
> There's a problem. I'm choosing not to ignore it, you are. . . .
Well, ignoring it is not going to solve the problem, but the form of
"not ignoring it" that you and your compatriots are indulging in is
not going to solve the problem either, so I see nothing at all
superior about your approach to the problem.
> . . . Each approach
> has its place. I would however suggest that the 'ignore it' line
> is the one which smacks more of a lack of maturity.
Killfiling Steve will mean you don't have to read his posts. You
won't raise your blood pressure doing so. You won't see them so you
won't spend your time responding to them (and raising your blood
pressure further). Since you're not responding, then the newsgroup
remains free of the clutter of these meta-threads.
And my knowledge of human nature and observation of the history of
this newsgroup suggests to me that nothing bad is going to happen
from ignoring Steve's messages. It's not going to result in an
influx of spam, nor an influx of new posters with advertising in
their sigs (any poster who advertises will be told its not
permitted, and since the vast majority of such posters will be
people of good will, they will stop).
>> Steve is not forcing you to read his posts.
>>
>> And one advertiser will not lead to an influx of spam. Steve has
>> been posting this way for months now and there has been no
>> upsurge in advertising in the newsgroup.
>>
>> Indeed, it is almost irrefutable that 99% of the advertising in
>> the newsgroup is drive-by spam, posted by people who are not
>> participants in the newsgroup. Steve is the only regular poster
>> who advertises, against the policy of the newsgroup.
>>
>> I suspect that were a newbie to arrive with an ad in his sig,
>> someone would point him to the FAQ and advise him not to
>> advertise. 99% of those people would likely delete the
>> advertising. The other 1% might say "well, Steve does it" and you
>> could point them to Google to see the massive dispute over
>> Steve's advertising and show the newbie that it's a bad thing.
>>
>> Problem solved, and there's no need to continue stirring the pot.
>
> I think you're misunderstanding the problem, or at least what you
> think I think it is. The problem is Steve. Nothing else.
And short of shooting Steve dead, you're not going to solve the
problem.
Indeed, Steve has dug in his heels and is more resistent to
criticism and much more combative than he was at the beginning of
the discussion.
It's an old story in human history and on Usenet: you criticize
someone for their behavior and instead of taking the behavior to
heart, they dig in their heels and defend their actions (however
indefensible those may be). The more they are criticized, the more
then refuse to relent.
If you stop pushing, it gives these people the opportunity to
relent.
And, of course, the pushing is never going to accomplish the stated
goal, anyway, so it's just a massive waste of everyone's time.
>> Last of all, in *this* thread, Steve was *not* involved . . .
This is something I realized only later was untrue. I didn't see
Steve's post because he was killfiled. Hint, hint.
>> . . . until you
>> and your compatriots gratuitously introduced him into the thread.
>> It's one thing to respond to Steve when he offends, it's entirely
>> another to make a thread about Steve when he hasn't been
>> participating in it. This latter is unconscionable in my opinion.
>
> I don't have any 'compatriots' on this issue. . . .
Keith and Randy, in this particular thread.
> . . . I have my opinion and what I
> do is due to that opinion. I'd say that your general idea in this
> paragraph is correct, and it's something that I would avoid doing.
> You may want to recheck the thread before you start blaming me
> for it.
As I said above, I realized after posting that I was in error -- I
was blissfully unaware of Steve's provocation.
I like remaining that way, and don't quite understand the enthusiasm
for maintaining the crusade against him.
> But getting into flames between those who ignore Steve, and those
> who oppose him by posting is a little pointless I think. Should
> we just agree to disagree on this one?
Get a life.
Killfile him and be done with it.
David W. Fenton
news:do3nld$h78$1...@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com:
> David W. Fenton wrote:
[]
>> Here's a free clue:
>
> Please don't patronise me David, I don't need it.
If you're acting like a child it shouldn't surprise you to be
treated like one.
>> Steve is not going to change.
>
> That's rather defeatist, enough complaints to his ISP will ensure
> he does.
It's only going to have results if the ISP acts on it. Many ISPs
ignore these kinds of things these days.
Indeed, Don Mellon made several false accusations to my ISP back
when he was on his crusade against me. Since my ISP knew me a lot
better than Don, they ignored them.
>> Get used to.
>>
>> Killfile him and get on with your life.
>
> This issue takes up very little of my time I'm happy to report.
OK, then.
<PLONK>
David W. Fenton
> "Arno R" <arraNO...@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
> news:43a4840c$0$10078$ba62...@text.nova.planet.nl...
>
> "David W. Fenton" <XXXu...@dfenton.com.invalid> schreef in
> bericht news:Xns972FA2840A41Af9...@127.0.0.1...
>
>
>>> Last of all, in *this* thread, Steve was *not* involved until
>>> you and your compatriots gratuitously introduced him into the
>>> thread.
>
>>This is *not true at all*.
>>Obviously you have still problems with your eyes, and/or you are
>>not
> reading the full thread.
>
> Arno is absolutely right on this point. Perhaps you missed it
> because of having killfiled Steve. There had been no mention
> whatever of pcdatasheet or Steve in this thread until he chose to
> post his "loser" messages.
Yes, I discovered this after posting that.
But if anything, it seems rather ironic to me that you'd be
interested in citing that. The fact that I didn't know about Steve's
post looks to me like the best recommendation for killfiling him --
if you don't see it, there's nothing to get upset about.
But both sides here are equally resistant to reason, so I know it's
a waste of time for me to continue the discussion, so:
<PLONK>
Rob Oldfield
care about it. Maybe you'd be better off not lecturing people about it
until you do.
Keith W
>>
>> This issue takes up very little of my time I'm happy to report.
>
> OK, then.
>
> <PLONK>
>
have an inflated sense of his own importance.
Arno R
I guess you are just 'asking' to be the following person to be plonked by our 'big shot' here... ;-)
Because: if you don't agree with DWF and not immediately back down when he tells you... that might be your fate.
This seems to be specifically the case in threads he did not read fully.
Arno R
"Rob Oldfield" <bl...@blah.com> schreef in bericht news:43a61a2e$0$23292$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
Mr Keith
news:Xns9730C602297C0f9...@127.0.0.1...
>
>
You certainly are. I'm begining to understand why Don Mellon hates you.
Keith Wilby
> Hi Rob,
> I guess you are just 'asking' to be the following person to be plonked by
> our 'big shot' here... ;-)
> Because: if you don't agree with DWF and not immediately back down when he
> tells you... that might be your fate.
> This seems to be specifically the case in threads he did not read fully.
You know, I *used* to have the greatest of respect for David, he has helped
me once or twice and I sympathised with his plight of being harrassed by Don
Mellon, but recently I have read more and more postings of his where his
bedside manner was bruske to say the least. He recently gave me a telling
of like a naughty schoolboy, when I responded and "gave as good as I got" I
got "plonked". Whatever will I do now? Who turned out all the lights?
David's ego knows no bounds.
Terry Kreft
<Ironic humour>
Of course if you display paranoid schizophrenia allied with bipolararity
controlled with hit and miss medication and extreme homophobia then maybe
I'm wrong <g>.
</Ironic humour>
--
Terry Kreft
"Mr Keith" <he...@there.com> wrote in message
news:43a671e2$1...@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
Terry Kreft
me over.
That is unfair, DWF and I have had major rows over the years, I haven't
killfiled him and he hasn't killfiled me (well maybe temporarily).
David has made numerous reasonable (for him <g>) requests that the campaign
against Steve stop within the NG before he elevated to "threats" to
killfile.
Why on earth you don't simply agree on a strategy to deal with Steve in the
same way that an agreement to deal with DPM was made. In that way you can
address Steve's actions in such a way that anybody can see but without
disrupting the rest of the NG.
Could I suggest that the following would be a reasonable strategy.
When Steve posts in a thread where he is in contravention of the FAQ then
1) Make one response directly following his first post. (and I don't
mean one each !)
2) After that leave it for that thread
3) Do not get into "discussions" with him
4) Make a complaint to his ISP
Simple, effective, regains the moral high ground and stops the arguments
between your "group" and everynody else.
--
Terry Kreft
"Arno R" <arraNO...@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
news:43a6734c$0$10086$ba62...@text.nova.planet.nl...
Keith Wilby
news:CeCcnfA8wMj...@karoo.co.uk...
>I doubt that very much.
>
> <Ironic humour>
> Of course if you display paranoid schizophrenia allied with bipolararity
> controlled with hit and miss medication and extreme homophobia then maybe
> I'm wrong <g>.
> </Ironic humour>
>
You're right, that was uncalled for, I am in no way allied to DM regardless
of provocation. By the way, I agree with your suggestion about how to
"deal" with Steve, we did indeed have this in place but this thread was
started as a blatent troll and we all fell for it, or so it seems.
Arno R
"Terry Kreft" <terry...@mps.co.uk> schreef in bericht news:CeCcnfE8wMj...@karoo.co.uk...
> That is unfair, DWF and I have had major rows over the years, I haven't
> killfiled him and he hasn't killfiled me (well maybe temporarily).
What is unfair Terry??
He did killfile me for no other reason than a disagreement (in fact sort of the same way like he just killfiled Keith and Randy)
David was wrong (in fact blind) in the specific thread where he plonked me, like he was wrong/blind this time also.
But please let's not get into a fight or a discussion about DWF here Terry. At least I don't feel like that.
I respect David's knowledge, but not his way of dealing with disagreements.
> David has made numerous reasonable (for him <g>) requests that the campaign
> against Steve stop within the NG before he elevated to "threats" to
> killfile.
Reasonable ??? <*big* grin indeed>
> Why on earth you don't simply agree on a strategy to deal with Steve in the
> same way that an agreement to deal with DPM was made. In that way you can
> address Steve's actions in such a way that anybody can see but without
> disrupting the rest of the NG.
>
> Could I suggest that the following would be a reasonable strategy.
>
> When Steve posts in a thread where he is in contravention of the FAQ then
> 1) Make one response directly following his first post. (and I don't
> mean one each !)
> 2) After that leave it for that thread
In fact this is exactly what we agreed on.
(This is essentially the idea of Rick Brandt in "A message to the community")
We will post a message and a link to the website ASAP (but only ONE time in the same thread).
So the OP has a chance to read (or ignore) the website.
That should be enough. If the OP still wants to do business with Steve?? OK!
We guess the website will be very effective.
> 3) Do not get into "discussions" with him
Indeed. For the rest let's all totally ignore PCDataSheet.
This might bring some peace and rest back in these newsgroups.
> 4) Make a complaint to his ISP
I doubt this will help very much, but I might be wrong.
I am afraid only numerous complaints will help. (Have you posted a complaint allready?)
> Simple, effective, regains the moral high ground and stops the arguments
> between your "group" and everynody else.
Let's all get back to work indeed.
Arno R
Randy Harris
killfiled me. I think there might be a larger irony here. This particular
thread was not about datasheet. David failed to notice that. After the
initial flame bait post, the thread was about slamming newbies. Who had
done that recently? I think everyone knows. And finally, take a look back
through the thread, who posted the greatest number of messages that
sustained the various subthreads? In his zeal to condemn those who are
actively opposing the CDMA advertising, it was David himself who elevated
this particular thread to the regrettable flame fest that it is.
Of course, David won't see this message.
Terry Kreft
have opinions on it, because it's inflammatory and I didn't want to get
into heated discussions with people about a third party.
What I thought was unfair was the apparent branding of David as having
jumped straight to threats of killfiling.
My perception is that David tends to killfile people in order to let the
situation/himself/the other person (whichever of those) cool down. He then
tends to remove people from his killfile, I may be wrong and if I am I'm
sure David will tell me (probably tell me to keep my nose out and not talk
for him as well, which unfortunately as a sentiment I'd probably have to
agree with <g>).
I tend to killfile people where it becomes obvious to me that we don't talk
on the same wavelength and probably never will.
Anyway, I've said more than I intended on this subject already, back to
Access anybody?
--
Terry Kreft
"Arno R" <arraNO...@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
news:43a6ad30$0$10077$ba62...@text.nova.planet.nl...
Tim Marshall
> This particular
> thread was not about datasheet. David failed to notice that. After the
> initial flame bait post, the thread was about slamming newbies.
Correct, it's one of the drawbacks of killfiling people I've found.
It's important to ascertain if there are "missing" portions of a thread
that gets one's ire so that one doesn't look silly in one's reactions.
Terry's advice is similar to what I've posted elsewhere. Arno is wrong
in wondering if complaints to ISPs have any effects: there is more than
one user on usenet, for example, I've seen have their account removed
(sometimes including a post from the ISP) and quite recently, a
anonymous remailer to whom I complained wrote me back to say the group
in question had been removed from that poster's available groups.
So ISP complaints DO work. Follow the procedure I posted elsewhere and
Terry's recipe - it'll make for a better group on all fronts, I think.
--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "Whatcha doin?" - Ditto "TIM-MAY!!" - Me
David W. Fenton
> Fair enough. You are clearly unaware of the actual issue, and you
> don't care about it. Maybe you'd be better off not lecturing
> people about it until you do.
I know exactly what the actual issue is and recognize that it can't
be resolved except if Steve decides to change his behavior. It's
quite clear that the constant hectoring of the bunch of you only
makes Steve *less* likely to change, as he started out responding to
it relatively civilly and eventually changed to majorly nasty (at
which point I killfiled him).
David W. Fenton
> My perception is that David tends to killfile people in order to
> let the situation/himself/the other person (whichever of those)
> cool down. He then tends to remove people from his killfile, I
> may be wrong and if I am I'm sure David will tell me (probably
> tell me to keep my nose out and not talk for him as well, which
> unfortunately as a sentiment I'd probably have to agree with <g>).
It depends on the poster. Worthwhile posters who show up regularly
in interesting discussions will tend to get out of my killfile
(though Lyle jumps in and out on a regular basis).
But those who have no apparent value don't tend to ever leave the
killfile.
I would normally do a 30-day kill in a situation like this, but none
of the posters involved have any memorable profile as valued
contributors to the newsgroup, so they just went to the permanent
killfile.
And, let me point out, the suggestion you made is exactly what I
recommended that they do (actually, I begged them to limit their
responses to a single post), and that was weeks ago.
One thing I'd add: if they'd use a FROM: address that's different
from their usual to do it, those of us who aren't interested in
reading those reponses can killfile on that address and still read
their regular posts.
But I don't think that's waht these people are actuallly interested
in. They keep engaging with Steve over and over again, which
suggests to me that this really isn't just about Steve's violation
of the newsgroup charter.
What it *is* about I really don't care.
No one has ever had any more right to be provoked by a poster than I
have, so I know what it's like to be constantly hit with something
that annoys you a lot. But the *only* answer when you can't make the
offender stop is to ignore him.
Lyle Fairfield
> It depends on the poster. Worthwhile posters who show up regularly
> in interesting discussions will tend to get out of my killfile
> (though Lyle jumps in and out on a regular basis).
Actually, David, everyone you killfile is me. No, REALLY! They're just
various persona I assume to harrass and annoy you. You don't think
there's a real Arno or Keith or Randy, do you?
Terry Kreft
That's you back in <g>.
--
Terry Kreft
"Lyle Fairfield" <lylefa...@aim.com> wrote in message
news:1135024917.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Terry Kreft
Oh, yeh, I'm well aware of that, as I said I've been trying to keep out of
this whole thing but I have been keeping an eye on it.
To be fair there was an attempt to use an alias but I think that got lost as
the tone of the affair dropped and dropped.
My belief is that people are people, and when someone is going out of their
way to be insulting and obnoxious it's difficult to stay on course. I just
think Steve did a very good job of provoking people to the point where they
lost sight of their objective.
Oh, I was here through all of that and you're right, ignoring is the only
(personally) successful strategy in the situation you found yourself in.
The major difference is though that I think you knew that virtually
everybody in the NG was disgusted by the actions, accusations and downright
libel of the other party and supported you.
--
Terry Kreft
"David W. Fenton" <XXXu...@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns973198602355Bf9...@127.0.0.1...
> "Terry Kreft" <terry...@mps.co.uk> wrote in
> news:iW-dnd9j_fA...@karoo.co.uk:
>
<SNIP>
> And, let me point out, the suggestion you made is exactly what I
> recommended that they do (actually, I begged them to limit their
> responses to a single post), and that was weeks ago.
>
> One thing I'd add: if they'd use a FROM: address that's different
> from their usual to do it, those of us who aren't interested in
> reading those reponses can killfile on that address and still read
> their regular posts.
>
> But I don't think that's waht these people are actuallly interested
> in.
<SNIP>
Randy Harris
"Terry Kreft" <terry...@mps.co.uk> wrote in message
news:CeCcnfE8wMj...@karoo.co.uk...
>
> Could I suggest that the following would be a reasonable strategy.
>
> When Steve posts in a thread where he is in contravention of the FAQ then
> 1) Make one response directly following his first post. (and I don't
> mean one each !)
> 2) After that leave it for that thread
> 3) Do not get into "discussions" with him
> 4) Make a complaint to his ISP
>
> Simple, effective, regains the moral high ground and stops the arguments
> between your "group" and everynody else.
PRECISELY what has been done for the last couple of weeks. All 4
suggestions!
Terry Kreft
Don't shout, please.
This is precisely what hasn't been happening at all. It may have been the
intention but it has not been the practice.
--
Terry Kreft
"Randy Harris" <ra...@SpamFree.com> wrote in message
news:QNFpf.31240$BZ5....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
David W. Fenton
> Oh, I was here through all of that and you're right, ignoring is
> the only (personally) successful strategy in the situation you
> found yourself in. The major difference is though that I think you
> knew that virtually everybody in the NG was disgusted by the
> actions, accusations and downright libel of the other party and
> supported you.
I don't think anyone supports Steve, either. But as with Don's
provocations, there's no action we can take to make it stop, so it's
better to ignore him.
Anything else is just an exercise in futility.
rkc
> I don't think anyone supports Steve, either. But as with Don's
> provocations, there's no action we can take to make it stop, so it's
> better to ignore him.
>
> Anything else is just an exercise in futility.
It's ridiculous to banter back and forth with him. It makes everyone
involved look stupid. My money is on a single message with a link to
Arno's tell-tale website.
David W. Fenton
news:Po%pf.34428$XJ5....@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
The single response was proposed weeks ago, yet those who have their
knickers in a twist over Steve have not actually followed that
advice (which at the time they all agreed was A Good Idea).
They just can't let it go, it seems.
mike noel
sarcastic reply, but you know what - life is too short - so I'll simply say:
I don't know if I like you or not and it doesn't really matter. I read
and occasionally contribute to this forum to learn about MS-Access and I
value your contributions for technical insight without respect to what
kind of person you happen to be. Perhaps one day you will even learn
something from me (but probably not).
¡Felíz año nuevo!
Lyle Fairfield wrote:
> Free is good.
>
> In Canada
>
> Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
>
> a) freedom of conscience and religion;
> b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including
> freedom of the press and other media of communication;
> c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
> d) freedom of association.
>
> I choose to exercise my right to these freedoms.
>
> On the other hand, when we post in CDMA we agree, or implicitly agree
> to be bound by its charter. It states
>
> The following are specifically forbidden in the CDMA newsgroup:
>
> * Advertising of any kind, even if the product is free, a demo, or
> otherwise. You may answer a question with a link to a commercial site
> which pertains to the question. You may also add a phrase and/or link
> in your signature.
> ...
>
> The problem with this rule is that there is no mechanism to help us
> decide if a commercial site pertains to a question.
> Since my site is about Access and all posts here should be about Access
> then, I suppose, I could argue that I could answer them all with a link
> to my site.
>
> I do not like sites which invite one to visit for a free utility and
> also advertise a more advanced one which is not free. It reminds me of
> "bait and switch" tactics.
>
> And I do not like someone who has contributed almost nothing to CDMA
> and who denigrates it. I do not like someone who e-mails implied
> threats to me. In other words, I do not like you.
>
> Is "shyster" too strong a word to describe someone who posts a link to
> his/her own site to answer questions which may or may not clearly
> pertain to the question? Is it too strong a word for someone who has
> posted here only a few times, has answered almost no technical
> questions (or none at all) and who has mentioned his free utility in
> the majority of his posts?
> I don't know. I do know that it reflects my opinion.
>
mike noel
utility I use in my own consultancy. I do corrective updates when people
tell me about problems and enhancement updates when I need a new feature
for my own deployments. It's probably been 6 months since I posted an
update.
David W. Fenton wrote:
> How long since you've updated it? Lyle has the opinion that old code
> that works fine somehow "rusts" and should be replaced with new
> code.