New features in 2.7
Mason, Paul
Hi,
I've been given the opportunity to offer input into what new features people want in 2.7. What would you like to see? Give me your top 2 or 3 and I'll pass them on.
My asking on this group is unofficial so I can't promise anything except I'll pass on your requests if I get them in time. Apologies for the short notice but it really needs to be in the next 24-48 hours.
This in no way replaces the normal official DAR process - it's just an extra opportunity to offer some feedback.
Paul Mason
Computer Associates
Technology Consultant
tel (Intl): +44 1753 241 560
tel (UK): 0800 587 1915
fax: +44 1753 241 582
paul....@ca.com or P...@ca.com Please quote your call reference.
Subscribe to the bi-weekly Ingres technical newsletter at <http://support.ca.com/listserv>
Join the Ingres forum, where you can discuss issues with other clients at <http://forums.ca.com/>
Check out the OS Certification Listings <http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html>
Check out the drop support dates at <http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html>
Check out the new E-Support web page at http://eSupport.ca.com <http://esupport.ca.com/>
Ingres Users Association Annual Conference registration: www.iua.org.uk
For more information on CA's free seminars and events, see: <http://www.ca.com/offices/uk/events>
Whalley, Mark CIB
Here comes the voting from the Welsh Jury (via one of your old haunts)!
Being a site predominantly populated with Siemens (Reliant Unix v5.45) and
Pyramid (SMP_DC-Osx 1.1-95d087.4) kit, we would love to see 2.7 ported to
these. We would equally be happy to see 2.6 or even 2.5 (which apparently
is still under testing)!
If this is not possible, that second bottle of 'Never ending Guinness' will
do just as well.
Regards
Mark
Mark Whalley
Database Administrator
npower Northern Limited
* (0191) 210 2007 / 07702 36 26 26
* (0191) 210 2647
* Mark.W...@npowernorthern.com
* Mark.W...@Auvergne.UK.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Mason, Paul [mailto:PAUL....@ca.com]
Sent: 06 February 2002 18:01
To: info-...@ams.org
Subject: New features in 2.7
Hi,
I've been given the opportunity to offer input into what new features people
want in 2.7. What would you like to see? Give me your top 2 or 3 and I'll
pass them on.
My asking on this group is unofficial so I can't promise anything except
I'll pass on your requests if I get them in time. Apologies for the short
notice but it really needs to be in the next 24-48 hours.
This in no way replaces the normal official DAR process - it's just an extra
opportunity to offer some feedback.
Paul Mason
Computer Associates
Technology Consultant
tel (Intl): +44 1753 241 560
tel (UK): 0800 587 1915
fax: +44 1753 241 582
paul....@ca.com or P...@ca.com Please quote your call reference.
Subscribe to the bi-weekly Ingres technical newsletter at <
http://support.ca.com/listserv <http://support.ca.com/listserv> >
Join the Ingres forum, where you can discuss issues with other clients at <
http://forums.ca.com/ <http://forums.ca.com/> >
Check out the OS Certification Listings <
http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html
<http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html> >
Check out the drop support dates at <
http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html
<http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html> >
Check out the new E-Support web page at http://eSupport.ca.com
<http://eSupport.ca.com> < http://esupport.ca.com/
<http://esupport.ca.com/> >
Ingres Users Association Annual Conference registration: www.iua.org.uk
For more information on CA's free seminars and events, see: <
http://www.ca.com/offices/uk/events <http://www.ca.com/offices/uk/events> >
Stefan Lindner
need
to kill any acttive connection.
Support for PHP would be great!
And perhaps a data provider for .NET?
"Whalley, Mark CIB" <mark.w...@npowernorthern.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:2362BD931667D511BB8300508BF956A2011D2E0A@NEXSVR1...
David Morgan
"Mason, Paul" <PAUL....@ca.com> wrote in message news:3795F9E48657D511B1B4...@ukslms06.ca.com...
Wim de Boer
How about an implementation of the bitmap-index?
Best regards,
Wim de Boer
Roger Hill
How about a 'modify to truncated' that leaves the original structures
and indexes intact? (See recent posts!)
Roger
=========================================================================
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Senior Business Consultant Phone: 01189-845-448
Prophecy Europe Ltd Mobile: 07970-905-198
Prophecy is a proud sponsor of the World Congress on IT 2002
For more information on the Congress, and how you can be involved,
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Piotr.Wi...@breat.com.pl
1.ABF/Vision: why is it possible to define input masking format for VARCHAR
field
but not for CHAR field ?
2.QBF/Joindef: You can delete columns from display, but you cannot put them
back.
3.SQL: I don't want '' (empty string) as a valid DATE value.
Piotr Wisniewski
-----Oryginalna wiadomosc-----
Od: Mason, Paul [mailto:PAUL....@ca.com]
Wyslano: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:01 PM
Do: info-...@ams.org
Temat: New features in 2.7
Hi,
I've been given the opportunity to offer input into what new features people
want in 2.7. What would you like to see? Give me your top 2 or 3 and I'll
pass them on.
My asking on this group is unofficial so I can't promise anything except
I'll pass on your requests if I get them in time. Apologies for the short
notice but it really needs to be in the next 24-48 hours.
This in no way replaces the normal official DAR process - it's just an extra
opportunity to offer some feedback.
Paul Mason
Computer Associates
Technology Consultant
tel (Intl): +44 1753 241 560
tel (UK): 0800 587 1915
fax: +44 1753 241 582
paul....@ca.com or P...@ca.com Please quote your call reference.
Subscribe to the bi-weekly Ingres technical newsletter at <
http://support.ca.com/listserv <http://support.ca.com/listserv> >
Join the Ingres forum, where you can discuss issues with other clients at <
http://forums.ca.com/ <http://forums.ca.com/> >
Check out the OS Certification Listings <
http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html
<http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html> >
Check out the drop support dates at <
http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html
<http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html> >
Check out the new E-Support web page at http://eSupport.ca.com
<http://eSupport.ca.com> < http://esupport.ca.com/
<http://esupport.ca.com/> >
Ingres Users Association Annual Conference registration: www.iua.org.uk
For more information on CA's free seminars and events, see: <
http://www.ca.com/offices/uk/events <http://www.ca.com/offices/uk/events> >
Kevin Cornmell
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please read the disclaimer at the bottom of this e-mail.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Kevin Cornmell
LCH Tech Ops CA Ingres DBA
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Mark Luijendijk
From: Mason, PaulTo: info-...@ams.orgSent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:01 PMSubject: New features in 2.7
Bateson, JL John
2.7 is in the distant future. Any ideas on delivery yet?
John
John Bateson
Daresbury Laboratory
Warrington
Cheshire
WA4 4AD
j.l.b...@dl.ac.uk
01925 603 727
-----Original Message-----
From: Piotr.Wi...@breat.com.pl
[mailto:Piotr.Wi...@breat.com.pl]
Sent: 07 February 2002 09:14
To: PAUL....@ca.com; info-...@ams.org
Subject: RE: New features in 2.7
These are not new features requests , but rather improvements requests:
1.ABF/Vision: why is it possible to define input masking format for VARCHAR
field
but not for CHAR field ?
2.QBF/Joindef: You can delete columns from display, but you cannot put them
back.
3.SQL: I don't want '' (empty string) as a valid DATE value.
Piotr Wisniewski
-----Oryginalna wiadomosc-----
Od: Mason, Paul [mailto:PAUL....@ca.com]
Wyslano: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:01 PM
Do: info-...@ams.org
Temat: New features in 2.7
Hi,
I've been given the opportunity to offer input into what new features people
want in 2.7. What would you like to see? Give me your top 2 or 3 and I'll
pass them on.
My asking on this group is unofficial so I can't promise anything except
I'll pass on your requests if I get them in time. Apologies for the short
notice but it really needs to be in the next 24-48 hours.
This in no way replaces the normal official DAR process - it's just an extra
opportunity to offer some feedback.
Paul Mason
Computer Associates
Technology Consultant
tel (Intl): +44 1753 241 560
tel (UK): 0800 587 1915
fax: +44 1753 241 582
paul....@ca.com or P...@ca.com Please quote your call reference.
Subscribe to the bi-weekly Ingres technical newsletter at <
http://support.ca.com/listserv <http://support.ca.com/listserv> >
Join the Ingres forum, where you can discuss issues with other clients at <
http://forums.ca.com/ <http://forums.ca.com/> >
Check out the OS Certification Listings <
http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html
<http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html> >
Check out the drop support dates at <
http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html
<http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html> >
Check out the new E-Support web page at http://eSupport.ca.com
<http://eSupport.ca.com> < http://esupport.ca.com/
<http://esupport.ca.com/> >
Ingres Users Association Annual Conference registration: www.iua.org.uk
For more information on CA's free seminars and events, see: <
http://www.ca.com/offices/uk/events <http://www.ca.com/offices/uk/events> >
Nigel Kavanagh
Paul,How about:
Dynamic dbms server parameter changing.
Full JDBC support.
Ascii configuration files for *.cnf., again.
Easier ways to duplicate a database.
The best bits out of other vendors DBMS!.
Nigel.
-------------------
Nigel J Kavanagh, Corporate Systems, Academic Services
Venn Building, University of Hull, Cottingham Road, Hull, HU6 7RX, England
Tel: 01482 466864, Fax: 01482 465930
Roger Hill
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Please read the disclaimer at the bottom of this e-mail.
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Howabout making aaaaaaaa.cnf & symbol.tbl non binary as in the config.dat
>table ?
>They serve only to obfuscate... and let us bedazzle with binary perl
>editting.
>
And how about making the checkpoint process back up the needed
versions of aaaaaaaaa.cnf etc.?
Roger
Richard....@gartmore.com
Paul,
I would like new flags to sql:
1. to remove all superfluous text (ie, an enhancement of the -s flag
which overrides dayfiles etc).
2. to remove column headings in addition to 1.
giving the option of outputting delimited data with or without column
names.
I would also like an equivalent of the MSSQL/Sybase FAST bcp command for
import/export of data (not forgetting to make CSV handling easy).
Thanks
Richard Lee-Brown
"Mason, Paul"
<PAUL....@ca.com> To: info-...@ams.org
cc:
Dept: Subject: New features in 2.7
Tel:
Loc:
Sent by:
owner-info-ingres@e-math
.ams.org
Sent at: 06/02/02 18:01
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Adrian Davis
addressed:-
*) Eliminate the 16 checkpoint limit.
*) Proper support for multi-location checkpoints.
Regards,
=Adrian=
Mason, Paul
Stefan,
I have passed on your comments, uneditted.
However I did want to respond about PHP.
I've not used PHP personally but I've been looking around www.php.net They already provide a series of functions to access Ingres databases - as they do for other DBMSs and data-sources. Was there something other than this that you'd like to see in Ingres itself?
Regards
Paul Mason
> > Sent: 06 February 2002 18:01
> > To: info-...@ams.org
> > Subject: New features in 2.7
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > I've been given the opportunity to offer input into what
> new features
> people
> > want in 2.7. What would you like to see? Give me your top 2
> or 3 and I'll
> > pass them on.
> >
> > My asking on this group is unofficial so I can't promise
> anything except
> > I'll pass on your requests if I get them in time. Apologies
> for the short
> > notice but it really needs to be in the next 24-48 hours.
> >
> > This in no way replaces the normal official DAR process -
> it's just an
> extra
> > opportunity to offer some feedback.
> > Paul Mason
> > Computer Associates
> > Technology Consultant
> > tel (Intl): +44 1753 241 560
> > tel (UK): 0800 587 1915
> > fax: +44 1753 241 582
> > paul....@ca.com or P...@ca.com Please quote your call reference.
> > Subscribe to the bi-weekly Ingres technical newsletter at <
> > Join the Ingres forum, where you can discuss issues with
> other clients at
> <
> > Check out the OS Certification Listings <
> > http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html
> > <http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html> >
> > Check out the drop support dates at <
> > http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html
> > <http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html> >
> > Check out the new E-Support web page at http://eSupport.ca.com
> > <http://esupport.ca.com/> >
> > Ingres Users Association Annual Conference registration:
www.iua.org.uk
> For more information on CA's free seminars and events, see: <
Peter Gale
Peter
Gale
Director
PJG
Computer Services Ltd
+44
(0)1398 341491 (o)
+44
(0)7831 513181 (m)
peter...@pjg.uk.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-in...@e-math.ams.org [mailto:owner-in...@e-math.ams.org] On Behalf Of Mason, Paul
Sent: 06 February 2002 18:01
To: info-...@ams.org
Subject: New features in 2.7
Mason, Paul
John,
2.6 is still in beta - if you want to join the beta program speak to your Account Manager who can arrange it for you.
No release date has been announced. We tend to release the product when it is fit for release rather than work to a fixed date and then have to delay or release an unstable product.
HTH
Paul Mason
> Temat: New features in 2.7
>
>
>
> Hi,
> I've been given the opportunity to offer input into what new
> features people
> want in 2.7. What would you like to see? Give me your top 2
> or 3 and I'll
> pass them on.
>
> My asking on this group is unofficial so I can't promise
> anything except
> I'll pass on your requests if I get them in time. Apologies
> for the short
> notice but it really needs to be in the next 24-48 hours.
>
> This in no way replaces the normal official DAR process -
> it's just an extra
> opportunity to offer some feedback.
> Paul Mason
> Computer Associates
> Technology Consultant
> tel (Intl): +44 1753 241 560
> tel (UK): 0800 587 1915
> fax: +44 1753 241 582
> paul....@ca.com or P...@ca.com Please quote your call reference.
> Subscribe to the bi-weekly Ingres technical newsletter at <
> Join the Ingres forum, where you can discuss issues with
> other clients at <
> Check out the OS Certification Listings <
> http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html
> <http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html> >
> Check out the drop support dates at <
> http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html
> <http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html> >
> Check out the new E-Support web page at http://eSupport.ca.com
> <http://esupport.ca.com/> >
> Ingres Users Association Annual Conference registration:
www.iua.org.uk
For more information on CA's free seminars and events, see: <
Mason, Paul
Richard,
I have of course passed on your suggestions.
However you may be interested to know that there is a command called fastload in the current versions of Ingres - although it only handles binary formats for speed. Also in 2.6 (currently in beta) there is a new feature called import assistant which is a wizard to simplify the process of loading standard file formats.
HTH
Paul Mason
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard....@gartmore.com
> [mailto:Richard....@gartmore.com]
> Sent: 07 February 2002 10:17
> To: Mason, Paul; info-...@ams.org
> Subject: Re: New features in 2.7
>
>
>
> Paul,
>
> I would like new flags to sql:
> 1. to remove all superfluous text (ie, an enhancement
> of the -s flag
> which overrides dayfiles etc).
> 2. to remove column headings in addition to 1.
> giving the option of outputting delimited data with or without column
> names.
>
> I would also like an equivalent of the MSSQL/Sybase FAST bcp
> command for
> import/export of data (not forgetting to make CSV handling easy).
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard Lee-Brown
>
> ric...@ingres-dba.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Mason, Paul"
>
>
> <PAUL....@ca.com> To:
> info-...@ams.org
>
> cc:
>
> Dept: Subject:
> New features in 2.7
>
> Tel:
>
>
> Loc:
>
>
> Sent by:
>
>
> owner-info-ingres@e-math
>
>
> .ams.org
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent at: 06/02/02 18:01
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
> I've been given the opportunity to offer input into what new features
> people want in 2.7. What would you like to see? Give me your
> top 2 or 3 and
> I'll pass them on.
>
>
> My asking on this group is unofficial so I can't promise
> anything except
> I'll pass on your requests if I get them in time. Apologies
> for the short
> notice but it really needs to be in the next 24-48 hours.
>
>
> This in no way replaces the normal official DAR process - it's just an
> extra opportunity to offer some feedback.
> Paul Mason
> Computer Associates
> Technology Consultant
> tel (Intl): +44 1753 241 560
> tel (UK): 0800 587 1915
> fax: +44 1753 241 582
> paul....@ca.com or P...@ca.com Please quote your call reference.
> Subscribe to the bi-weekly Ingres technical newsletter at <
> http://support.ca.com/listserv>
> Join the Ingres forum, where you can discuss issues with
> other clients at <
> http://forums.ca.com/>
> Check out the OS Certification Listings <
> http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4021.html>
> Check out the drop support dates at <
> http://support.ca.com/techbases/ingres/4000.html>
> Check out the new E-Support web page at http://eSupport.ca.com <
> http://esupport.ca.com/>
> Ingres Users Association Annual Conference registration:
www.iua.org.uk
For more information on CA's free seminars and events, see: <
http://www.ca.com/offices/uk/events>
Peter Gale
different checkpoint location for each data location.
I would also like to have the ability to extract an individual table or
set of tables from a database level checkpoint and rollforward.
Obviously with the caution of logical inconsistencies in the database
etc.
And another. If you do a partial rollforward of a database in order to
backout some changes and then allow the database to be used it is
correct procedure to take a new checkpoint before allowing the users
back in. What would be nice is facility that allows you to create a
pseudo checkpoint based upon one already taken but with only a sub-set
of the journal files that are associated with the original checkpoint.
The idea is that this would be much faster than taking a new checkpoint.
The facility would add a new checkpoint to the config file and then
create the new checkpoint files. It could do this by copying the
checkpoint files or by creating symbolic links to the original files (
that would need some careful management of file deletion). With that
done it the copies the journal files to a new set but only up to a
specified point in time. If this was implemented through rollforwarddb
then the time would be the same as the -e flag. Alternatively this could
be an option for alterdb. I hope I explained that well enough.
Peter Gale
Director
PJG Computer Services Ltd
+44 (0)1398 341491 (o)
+44 (0)7831 513181 (m)
peter...@pjg.uk.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-in...@e-math.ams.org
[mailto:owner-in...@e-math.ams.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Davis
Sent: 07 February 2002 10:44
To: info-...@ams.org
Subject: Re: New features in 2.7
brad cooper
can utilize Object Pooling instead of ODBC pooling
*) Better Documentation and Support for IMADB
*) XML Formatted Errlog.log
Brad Cooper
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
Kevin Cornmell
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please read the disclaimer at the bottom of this e-mail.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
bt
- Auxiliary log files - a bit like auxiliary work locations
-.Bitmap indexes for warehousing
- 64bit TID
- Changes to OPF to spot star schemas
-.Online modify
- Online sysmod
- Hot cbf
- Parallel optimizedb i.e.only need to scan a table once when building
the histograms
- A data loading tool to better SQL*Loader!
- A kind of SET NOLOGGING WHERE CONSEQUENCE = NONE would be nice *grin*.
- Partial checkpoint by schema (Peter Gale has some really good ideas on
improving Ingres backup/recovery)
- Provide visibility of Port/PID mapping of Ingres/NET processes
- Migration Tools to migrate other products to Ingres
- Published benchmarks
- Online/Offline locations
- Partitioned tables
Richard David
Sorry, but Nutscape didn't have my identiy setup correctly!
Richard David
> John,
>
> 2.6 is still in beta - if you want to join the beta program speak to
> your Account Manager who can arrange it for you.
>
Isn't Advantage Ingres 2.6 being launched on 25th February?
Jon....@ons.gov.uk
Paul,
Hi - another welsh voice being raised here - two things spring out at me,
COM interface - we have been trying to get Lotus Notes working with
(admittedly) 6.4 but it doesn't look that much
better under II.
Temporary Database extensions - once you've extended a database you can't
remove it so it gets a bit messy trying to
get filestore back.
I'd also echo Wim and the request for bitmap indexes.
rgds
Jon
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Mason, Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bt [mailto:b...@bt.com]
> Sent: 07 February 2002 14:39
> To: info-...@ams.org
> Subject: Re: New features in 2.7
>
>
<SNIP>
> - A kind of SET NOLOGGING WHERE CONSEQUENCE = NONE would be
> nice *grin*.
If this wasn't just a joke then I'll need you to explain what you mean because it doesn't make sense to me. (sorry)
Mason, Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Gale [mailto:peter...@pjg.uk.com]
> Sent: 07 February 2002 12:42
> To: 'Adrian Davis'; info-...@ams.org
> Subject: RE: New features in 2.7
>
<SNIP>
> I would also like to have the ability to extract an
> individual table or
> set of tables from a database level checkpoint and rollforward.
> Obviously with the caution of logical inconsistencies in the database
> etc.
>
This is already possible. If you try to rollforward a table from a full database checkpoint it will do it, but warn you about inconsistencies.
However - there is a flag in iirelation for each table which allows/disallows checkpoint or rollforward on that table. If the flag is disabled then you will get the error "E_DM135F_RFP_NO_TBL_RECOV Table level recovery disallowed for table mytable"
This flag is set (enabled) when the database is checkpointed - though not by an online checkpoint prior to 2.5. You can (re)set the flag manually with
modify mytable to table_recovery_allowed | table_recovery_disallowed
This syntax is documented in the SQL reference guide but it is not immediately clear there is any link to table level rollforward.
HTH
Paul
Bateson, JL John
http://www3.ca.com/Solutions/Product.asp?id=1013
John
John Bateson
Daresbury Laboratory
Warrington
Cheshire
WA4 4AD
j.l.b...@dl.ac.uk
01925 603 727
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard David [mailto:richar...@bt.com]
Sent: 07 February 2002 15:02
To: info-...@ams.org
Subject: Re: New features in 2.7
Mason, Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard David [mailto:richar...@bt.com]
> Sent: 07 February 2002 15:02
> To: info-...@ams.org
> Subject: Re: New features in 2.7
>
>
> "Mason, Paul" wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> > 2.6 is still in beta - if you want to join the beta program speak to
> > your Account Manager who can arrange it for you.
> >
>
> Isn't Advantage Ingres 2.6 being launched on 25th February?
>
I personally have not been given a date - so that's why I said it's still 'in beta'.
Paul
Richard David
It was just a joke, but there are many times I've wished I could set no
logging on my own schema and not give a damn about recovery!
If CREATE TABLE foo AS SELECT * FROM bar WITH NOJOURNALING doesn't swamp
the log file, why can't INSERT INTO foo SELECT * FROM bar?
Mason, Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard David [mailto:richar...@bt.com]
> Sent: 07 February 2002 16:26
> To: info-...@ams.org
> Subject: Re: New features in 2.7
>
>
> "Mason, Paul" wrote:
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: bt [mailto:b...@bt.com]
> > > Sent: 07 February 2002 14:39
> > > - A kind of SET NOLOGGING WHERE CONSEQUENCE = NONE would be
> > > nice *grin*.
> >
> > If this wasn't just a joke then I'll need you to explain
> what you mean
> > because it doesn't make sense to me. (sorry)
>
> It was just a joke, but there are many times I've wished I
> could set no
> logging on my own schema and not give a damn about recovery!
>
You're assuming that you've not given anyone else access to your tables - or if you have that they don't care either?
> If CREATE TABLE foo AS SELECT * FROM bar WITH NOJOURNALING
> doesn't swamp
> the log file, why can't INSERT INTO foo SELECT * FROM bar?
>
What happens if we need to rollback the statement? With a CREATE TABLE we can just drop the table, with an INSERT we need the logfile to record the before images. We can't assume that because someone uses NOJOURNALING they mean "I don't care about consistency".
Maybe what you are really after is a WITH NORECOVERY option on a table? Which is kind of similar to Karl's request for session tables not to be dropped on rollback - i.e. allow logical inconsistency (on parts of the database) at the user's discretion.
Want me to put that forward?
Richard David
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Richard David [mailto:richar...@bt.com]
> > If CREATE TABLE foo AS SELECT * FROM bar WITH NOJOURNALING
> > doesn't swamp
> > the log file, why can't INSERT INTO foo SELECT * FROM bar?
> >
>
> What happens if we need to rollback the statement? With a CREATE TABLE
> we can just drop the table, with an INSERT we need the logfile to
> record the before images. We can't assume that because someone uses
> NOJOURNALING they mean "I don't care about consistency".
>
> Maybe what you are really after is a WITH NORECOVERY option on a
> table? Which is kind of similar to Karl's request for session tables
> not to be dropped on rollback - i.e. allow logical inconsistency (on
> parts of the database) at the user's discretion.
>
> Want me to put that forward?
Yes please Paul!
Matthew Jones
Hi Paul,
I like most of the features already in Ingres (2.0). 2.5/2.6 have got
many extras as well. One I would like is to be able to specify a
different delimiter for auditdb output (not just |). I have developed
a data replication product which uses the output from auditdb, & then
converts it to SQL (amongst other steps) . If the data itself
contains '|', there is a problem in working out the column delimiters
from the data. I have written my own version of auditdb, but I cannot
guarantee I have correctly decoded what is in the journals, although
most transactions seem to be right.
Also, how about better, more agressive marketing of Ingres ... as the
way things are going in Australia (Sydney in particular), I do not
think I will be using Ingres by the time 2.7 comes out. (Actually I
doubt I will use 2.5 or 2.6, except for my own use).
Regards
Matthew Jones
mjandj...@bigpond.com
Martin Bowes
What I would really like to see:
A Perl-like regular expression engine for some vaguely decent string
manipulation.
A complete set of help files available in CBF.
Shared RDF cacheing!
Lets stop screwing around with Trace points. Fully support dm420, qe90
etc. Documentation in the DBA guide on these would be great. Particularly
for those trace points that have some interaction with Ingres Environment
variables.
Stop allowing Californians to control the syntax. I nearly cacked myself
when I first saw the syntax to "declare global temporary table session..."!
C'mon guys that was just embarrassing to explain to people! Sort of like a
Segway but without the really cool Gyroscopes. Sometimes a third wheel is
just easier!
Officialy Support Symbolic Links. The current system has unofficial
support and if you guys ever stopped doing this I for one would be at the
head of the Lynching Party. I have plenty of Pitchforks and burning
torches spare for anyone else.
SQL with branching logic. Nothing too advanced -afterall there comes a
point at which you should just make an application. But something thats a
little better than the old go-block style processing would be nice.
Proper delinetaion of the existing error codes into errors and warnings. I
dont want error messages that are really warnings to activate error traps
either on my own code or within Ingres itself.
ie have an E_ and a W_ set of messages.
Allow a piggy-back hook into the archiver so that after it finishes
writing a journal file for a specified database I can then copy it all to
my DRP site without having to worry about any buffering problems!.
The ability to apply journals to a backup database incoporating only those
changes since the last such action. The database can then be 'activated' -
It lives Igor, It lives! (Mad cackeling and lightening flashes could be an
option)- and made live for user access when required.
Fully support MACs in OpenROAD etc. I work in an institution where MACs
make up 40% of our client platform base.
Don't forget there are still good ol' dumb UNIX terminals out there two.
So lets support X.
And - Just to show my age - Do you remember those really cute little
spiral bound 'INGRES/SQL Command Summary' manuals we got with Ingres 6.3
and 6.4? I still use mine on IngresII! Our programmers guard there few
remaining copies with their lives. I'd love to get an updated IngresII
version of these.
Finally - Buy some bloody DUNIX platforms for your TechSupport dudes, and
stop developing aginst DUNIX 3.2!
Of course, not even I dream of a Nirvana like that!
Martin Bowes
--
Random Earthworm Jim Quote #18:
Peter Puppy - Oh great, its early morning and already your mind has snapped
like a dried stick
Martin Bowes
>
> Also, how about better, more agressive marketing of Ingres ... as the
> way things are going in Australia (Sydney in particular), I do not
> think I will be using Ingres by the time 2.7 comes out. (Actually I
> doubt I will use 2.5 or 2.6, except for my own use).
Amen to that brother!
The big O word is now rapidly becoming a reality down Mexico way. I take
some solace from the fact that after fairly extensive investigation the HR
and StudentAdmin Offices couldnt find a better O product than the
Homebrewed Ingres Applications that are about ten years old.
The only benefit of O is the management have been shocked to get Hardware
Costs to run the damn thing on. We are talking an Order of magnitude.
Suddenly my requests for a $20,000 CPU/Memory upgrade are getting though
without a whimper!
Martin Bowes
>
> Regards
> Matthew Jones
> mjandj...@bigpond.com
>
--
Random Duckman Quote #11:
Cornfed - The look promises a night of comparing hard to find birth-
marks in a hot bubble bath, but all you get is a slap in
the face & a cold shower.
Duckman - How hard a slap?
Steve McElhinney
> Hi,
> I've been given the opportunity to offer input into what new features people
> want in 2.7. What would you like to see?
Paul,
I agree with the previous posters who have have asked for
ways of editing the config files; some way of un-extending a DB and
tidying up an installation that has DB locations all over the place.
The config file gets in the way to much, esp when you are trying to set
up (copy of live) test DB's on other Ingres installations.
Regards
Steve McElhinney
Roy Hann
Hi,
In no particular order:
--Execution profiling tool for ESQL, ABF, and OpenROAD.
--Display lock-waits integrated over time in lockstat -statistics.
--"Parallelized" unload.ing and reload.ing scripts.
--Parallel execution of (at least) project-restrict operations.
--Documentation for imadb.
--dbmsinfo('installation_id')
dbmsinfo('hostname')
dbmsinfo('up_time')
--Expose parameters of currently executing queries through IMA.
--Trace point to turn off REPEATED--i.e. force transmission of query always.
--Delay substitution of synonyms until execution time (NOT object definition time).
--Support synonyms everywhere a table name is allowed (e.g. as a copydb argument).
I can never remember my wishlist at times like this, so this will have to do for the moment. If I only get one request though, it would be for execution profiling. How hard could that be? :-)
Roy Hann
Rational Commerce Ltd.
"Ingres development, tuning, and training experts"
Gilgamesh Nootebos
It would be nice to use DECLARE GLOBAL TEMPORARY <view|procedure|rule>
session.x
so those could reference global temporary tables.
--
Gilgamesh Nootebos (Elegant Relational Development)
Richard....@gartmore.com
Paul,
I tend to agree with the others on this one...
> Also, how about better, more aggressive marketing of Ingres ... as the
> way things are going in Australia (Sydney in particular), I do not
> think I will be using Ingres by the time 2.7 comes out. (Actually I
> doubt I will use 2.5 or 2.6, except for my own use).
Is England on its way out too...???
Why not make available the CA conversion tool for converting ABF
applications into OpenRoad,
which would make applications fit in with more companies standard
environments.
If a lot of effort is involved in modernising applications, they tend to
get rewritten in VB/Java/PowerBuilder etc
using MS SQL Server / Sybase / Oracle, bye-bye Ingres !
Please, Please, Please get rid of LicenseIT. If I was evaluating a DBMS for
corporate use, 10 minutes into LicenseIT and the whole Ingres package would
be in the bin ... no matter how good the product. If I run a Unix system
why should I need a NT box to install the License ?? Just throw it away,
you know it makes sense.
Look at it from a prospective purchasers point of view, its a big decision
choosing a DBMS.
Richard Lee-Brown
ric...@ingres-dba.com
Nick Bolton
* 64 bit tids
or at least floating-point tids (as suggested by Doug Inkster at
IngresWORLD)
where the number of entries on a page can vary from 512 to allow
more pages
on a 32bit tid.
* Help for all options in cbf
(maybe there is from 2.5 onwards?)
* Ability to use more than 30 tables/indexes in a query
(again, configurable in cbf would be nice)
* aaaaaaaa.cnf file to be put into checkpoints automatically
* Option to delete checkpoints more than x days old
e.g. alterdb <dbname> -delete_old_ckp 14 or similar
* Ability to see port/PID mappings of Ingres Processes (iinamu
option?)
* Option to fix the port used by Ingres processes in cbf
We have to mess around with II_GC_PORT before starting bits of
Ingres now.
* Online table modifications
Oh, and finally
* Rename the product to Oraclegres to sell a few more.
--
Any postings made via this facility do not represent the views of
Barclays Bank PLC unless otherwise specifically stated. Responsibility
for the contents of the posting lies with the individual making or
named in the posting.
PAUL....@ca.com (Mason, Paul) wrote in message news:<3795F9E48657D511B1B4...@ukslms06.ca.com>...
> Hi,
> I've been given the opportunity to offer input into what new features people
> want in 2.7. What would you like to see? Give me your top 2 or 3 and I'll
> pass them on.
Tim Ellis
>
> Proper delinetaion of the existing error codes into errors and warnings. I
> dont want error messages that are really warnings to activate error traps
> either on my own code or within Ingres itself.
> ie have an E_ and a W_ set of messages.
>
Yes! I'd really like Error codes returned like VMS
(<Facility>-<Severity>-<Code>, <Description>
That way all my procedures that scan log files for "-F-" (Fatal),
"-E-" (Error) and "-W-" (warning) messages could pick up SQL Errors as
well (searching for "E_" is pointless, it returns far to many matches
which have nothing to do with SQL...)
When we first started using Ingres, We'd really have liked Ingres Date
fields to hold values down to 100ths of a second too, so that we
didn't have to change things so much...
>
> And - Just to show my age - Do you remember those really cute little
> spiral bound 'INGRES/SQL Command Summary' manuals we got with Ingres 6.3
> and 6.4? I still use mine on IngresII! Our programmers guard there few
> remaining copies with their lives. I'd love to get an updated IngresII
> version of these.
>
I'd second that one too
Also an end to Destructive Return Keys in ISQL
Karl & Betty Schendel
>Hi Paul et al,
>
>What I would really like to see:
>
> Stop allowing Californians to control the syntax. I nearly cacked myself
> when I first saw the syntax to "declare global temporary table session..."!
I also thought that this was some demented developer run amuck. Nope!
Believe it or not, that's the way the SQL standard says you are supposed
to do it. The only nonstandard bit that the Alameda crew added was the
"WITH NORECOVERY" phrase.
--
Karl R. Schendel, Jr. sche...@kbcomputer.com
K/B Computer Associates www.kbcomputer.com
Ingres, Unix, VMS Consulting and Training
Richard David
> --"Parallelized" unload.ing and reload.ing scripts.
Hi Roy,
If I understand what you mean by "Parallelized", I raised this as bug
many, many moons ago:-
(GENERIC)
A new flag, -parallel, has been added to copydb and unloaddb.
When -parallel is used, indexes will be created in the copy.in
file using the new parallel index syntax.
(104533)
It got added to Ingres II 2.5 as a patch and should already be in Ingres
II 2.6
Richard David
> Why not make available the CA conversion tool for converting ABF
> applications into OpenRoad,
> which would make applications fit in with more companies standard
> environments.
The tool you describe was demonstrated at last years Spring UKIUA Conference. Anyone at CA like to say when "Transforge" is going to be available?
> If a lot of effort is involved in modernising applications, they tend to
> get rewritten in VB/Java/PowerBuilder etc
> using MS SQL Server / Sybase / Oracle, bye-bye Ingres !
Sadly true.
But how many migration attempts end up as a very expensive failures, and how many cost a fortune to get up and keep running? More than the competition and Ingres-hostile press would EVER dare to mention.
> Please, Please, Please get rid of LicenseIT. If I was evaluating a DBMS for
> corporate use, 10 minutes into LicenseIT and the whole Ingres package would
> be in the bin ... no matter how good the product. If I run a Unix system
> why should I need a NT box to install the License ?? Just throw it away,
> you know it makes sense
Well you get about a month's grace period after installation and you don't need an NT box to install a license.
Having said that, Licens**T is with out doubt the worst pile of crap I've ever had to deal with in all my years of working with Ingres, and I for one will not be sorry to see it go. It is going to go in version 2.6/2.7 like you promised, right CA?
Jean-Claude Jurvillier
1) Localizations
Don't forget you have users also in other local languages than english.
Ingres appears to stay in a "Middle Ages state" :
- Documentation only in english
- Error messages only in english
- But may be more important : impossibility to get a date format other
than in english (names of days and months, and date intervals) !!
2) Ingres and PHP
PHP/Ingres seems to me to be the most important step of development
opportunity for a long time !
CA refused to do anything about this, and we had to wait a too long time
for primitive call functions.
Some additional enhancements could be appreciated, as they already exist
for other databases :
- multi-sessions connections (ingres_connect don't return a session
identification, allowing only 1 session).
- possibility to give connection parameters (role, -uuser, ...)
3) Open to XML
Only beginner, but it seems that what will be offered is poor compared
to ... what Access proposes. May be at least offer xml, xsd (schema),
and xsl files as an output of a table OR of a select query.
4) LDAP ?
Is Ingres (can be) able to parse/understand (?) LDAP requests ?
5) Checkpoints
Be able to easily define less than 16 (?) rollover of old checkpoints
--
Cordialement
_____________________________________________
INRETS
94114 ARCUEIL CEDEX
Dennis Roesler
>
> Richard....@gartmore.com wrote:
>
> > Why not make available the CA conversion tool for converting ABF
> > applications into OpenRoad,
> > which would make applications fit in with more companies standard
> > environments.
>
> The tool you describe was demonstrated at last years Spring UKIUA Conference. Anyone at CA like to say when "Transforge" is going to be available?
>
> > If a lot of effort is involved in modernising applications, they tend to
> > get rewritten in VB/Java/PowerBuilder etc
> > using MS SQL Server / Sybase / Oracle, bye-bye Ingres !
>
> Sadly true.
>
> But how many migration attempts end up as a very expensive failures, and how many cost a fortune to get up and keep running? More than the competition and Ingres-hostile press would EVER dare to mention.
I couldn't agree with you more. A lot more than anyone wants to admit.
But, unfortunately that's beside the point. You get stuck with the
older Ingres apps because no one wants to go back and say, OK, let's
just upgrade our Ingres tools/apps. The money spent on the first
failure, or expensive implementation, leaves no budget for going back
and upgrading the Ingres tools/apps.
Dennis
Nabil
1. Extending a database online
2. Implementation of Reverse Keys to get rid of the problem of BTREE
contention on sequential keys
3. Online Index creation
4. A "Create or rebuild index|view|procedure" statement
5. Better stats from lockstat to show historical statistics on locked
tables
6. Online sysmod
Nabil
====
Roy Hann
>* Ability to see port/PID mappings of Ingres Processes (iinamu
>option?)
Stefan Lindner
>
> PHP/Ingres seems to me to be the most important step of development
> opportunity for a long time !
> CA refused to do anything about this, and we had to wait a too long time
> for primitive call functions.
> Some additional enhancements could be appreciated, as they already exist
> for other databases :
> - multi-sessions connections (ingres_connect don't return a session
> identification, allowing only 1 session).
> - possibility to give connection parameters (role, -uuser, ...)
Yes!!!!!!!!!!
Roy Hann
Roy Hann
>> > If a lot of effort is involved in modernising applications, they tend to
>> > get rewritten in VB/Java/PowerBuilder etc
>> > using MS SQL Server / Sybase / Oracle, bye-bye Ingres !
>>
>> Sadly true.
>>
>> But how many migration attempts end up as a very expensive failures, and
>how many cost a fortune to get up and keep running? More than the
>competition and Ingres-hostile press would EVER dare to mention.
There are all kinds of reasons why people don't want to go on using Ingres, but I will go slightly further out on this limb and say that they are all (necessarily) irrational. For example, there are a lot of people who want to be part of the "winning team"--they need to be using the market leader to feel good about themselves or something. Then there are those who've had their nose put out of joint by CA over something or other. (CA have consistently underestimated the power of pique to cost them business.) The third major group that I see a lot are those who still don't believe CA are committed to Ingres. That is a question I get asked at practically every engagement I go on. Why is that?
I'm sure there could be all kinds of reasons to pick Oracle or DB/2 or SQL Server for new development, but I've never yet heard a sensible reason for getting rid of a working, stable Ingres system. I've heard all kinds of really stupid ones though. Which is often all it takes, apparently.
Flames, anyone?
Dennis Roesler
>
> At 11:51 08/02/2002 -0500, Dennis Roesler wrote:
>
> >> > If a lot of effort is involved in modernising applications, they
> tend to
> >> > get rewritten in VB/Java/PowerBuilder etc
> >> > using MS SQL Server / Sybase / Oracle, bye-bye Ingres !
> >>
> >> Sadly true.
> >>
> >> But how many migration attempts end up as a very expensive
> failures, and
> >how many cost a fortune to get up and keep running? More than the
> >competition and Ingres-hostile press would EVER dare to mention.
>
> I would go rather further with this. The migration doesn't have to
> fail for it to be a stupid move. It is not possible, and never has
> been possible, to make a business case for abandoning a major database
> application that supports an existing business process. Even if it
> all goes perfectly, it is a very expensive proposition, and it simply
> cannot--even in principle--create net savings nor create new
> opportunities to make money. Quite apart from the risks involved, it
> means losing six months or a year or two years of potential progress
> while you just re-implement what you already had.
When these cases are made it is all about spin. Once it's bought hook,
line and sinker - down that path you go. Whether they fail or become
very expensive implementations there's always a gazillion reasons(read
excuses) why.
> Database management
> systems are commodities.
I agree in principle with this, but unless you're talking about open
source dbms' the licensing/pricing model of most major dbms' don't yet
make them commodities.
> None is so good it will move your business
> to the next level, and Ingres is certainly good enough that it is
> nowhere near being an unacceptable risk. Rather the opposite I would
> say.
Agree.
> There are all kinds of reasons why people don't want to go on using
> Ingres, but I will go slightly further out on this limb and say that
> they are all (necessarily) irrational. For example, there are a lot
> of people who want to be part of the "winning team"--they need to be
> using the market leader to feel good about themselves or something.
And pretty soon you hear, "we don't have expertise in <insert non market
leader> in our organization." When a company has decided to go with the
market leader of the day they tend to use the latest development and
support tools available for the particular dbms. So no investment is
made in upgrading the Ingres installation to the latest versions, or
implementing newer Ingres development environments. Pretty soon no one
wants to work on/support what is perceived to be "old technology".
> Then there are those who've had their nose put out of joint by CA over
> something or other. (CA have consistently underestimated the power of
> pique to cost them business.)
Yep. Don't ever underestimate the power of human nature.
> The third major group that I see a lot
> are those who still don't believe CA are committed to Ingres.
Yep.
> That is
> a question I get asked at practically every engagement I go on. Why
> is that?
>
> I'm sure there could be all kinds of reasons to pick Oracle or DB/2 or
> SQL Server for new development, but I've never yet heard a sensible
> reason for getting rid of a working, stable Ingres system.
Nope.
> I've heard
> all kinds of really stupid ones though. Which is often all it takes,
> apparently.
Yep.
>
> Flames, anyone?
No flames here, just reality.
Dennis
Matthew Jones
Over the years I have developed a number of tools ... One of them
(iced), allows you to easily edit the cnf file. It is an ABF
application, which formats the cnf file into meaningful fields,
allowing you to change them. Of course, as I have had to de-code the
format of the cnf file, I make no guarantees as to its accuracy. But
I have been using it for a few years, on many databases and I have had
no problems.
If anybody wants it, let me know and I could send you the source code
and more details.
Regards
Matthew Jones
mjandj...@bigpond.com
Patrick Spinler
>
> Yes! I'd really like Error codes returned like VMS
> (<Facility>-<Severity>-<Code>, <Description>
>
> That way all my procedures that scan log files for "-F-" (Fatal),
> "-E-" (Error) and "-W-" (warning) messages could pick up SQL Errors as
> well (searching for "E_" is pointless, it returns far to many matches
> which have nothing to do with SQL...)
>
Tim,
Get perl or a version of grep on your VMS (the revision from GNV at
gnv.sourceforge.net works fine) and use a regular expression pattern
something like this:
E_[A-Z][A-Z][0-9A-F][0-9A-F][0-9A-F][0-9A-F]
Works great.
-- Pat
--
This message does not represent the policies or positions
of the Mayo Foundation or its subsidiaries.
Patrick Spinler email: Spinler...@Mayo.EDU
Mayo Foundation phone: 507/284-9485
Roy Hann
>Roy Hann wrote:
>> Database management
>> systems are commodities.
>
>I agree in principle with this, but unless you're talking about open
>source dbms' the licensing/pricing model of most major dbms' don't yet
>make them commodities.
No, I still insist they are commodities. :-) In the first place I can't
think of one bet-your-business DBMS that costs less to own than Ingres. In
the second place, even a hugely expensive product is going to cost an
inconsequential fraction of what will get pissed away on re-implementation,
re-training, and re-testing. And finally, my main point was that there is
nothing that Oracle or any of the others do that makes them worth all those
extra costs if you've already got something that is doing the job for you.
Roy
Suresh
Suresh
Richard....@gartmore.com wrote in message news:<OF23665921.5D2A6C3F...@gartmore.com>...
> Paul,
>
> I would like new flags to sql:
> 1. to remove all superfluous text (ie, an enhancement of the -s flag
> which overrides dayfiles etc).
> 2. to remove column headings in addition to 1.
> giving the option of outputting delimited data with or without column
> names.
>
> I would also like an equivalent of the MSSQL/Sybase FAST bcp command for
> import/export of data (not forgetting to make CSV handling easy).
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard Lee-Brown
>
> ric...@ingres-dba.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Mason, Paul"
> <PAUL....@ca.com> To: info-...@ams.org
> cc:
> Dept: Subject: New features in 2.7
> Tel:
> Loc:
> Sent by:
> owner-info-ingres@e-math
> .ams.org
>
> Sent at: 06/02/02 18:01
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
> I've been given the opportunity to offer input into what new features
> people want in 2.7. What would you like to see? Give me your top 2 or 3 and
Martin Bowes
Hasn't this been a popular thread!
Paul should be congratulated for bravery on this issue. He made a rod for
his own back and copped a fair caning from all - including me!
Kudos, Browny Points and a big elephant stamp to him.
Martin Bowes
--
Random Earthworm Jim Quote #11:
Jim - Gasp of astonishment!
Michael Leo
Paul,
Hopefully you understood the above as praise. I personally
don't want a 'big elephant stamp' ;-}
Good job!
Michael Leo ml...@cariboulake.com Java, J2EE
Caribou Lake Software http://www.cariboulake.com Oracle, Ingres,
DB2, Websphere
The smallest good deed is better than the greatest intention.
Martin Bowes
>
> At 08:49 AM 2/12/2002 +1100, Martin Bowes wrote:
> >Hi Everyone,
> >
> > Hasn't this been a popular thread!
> >
> > Paul should be congratulated for bravery on this issue. He made a rod for
> > his own back and copped a fair caning from all - including me!
> >
> > Kudos, Browny Points and a big elephant stamp to him.
> >
> > Martin Bowes
> >--
> >Random Earthworm Jim Quote #11:
> >Jim - Gasp of astonishment!
>
> Paul,
>
> Hopefully you understood the above as praise. I personally
> don't want a 'big elephant stamp' ;-}
>
Are you telling me that Mrs Cruikshanks grading method at Wangaratta
Primary School Class 3C is not a universal standard?
That Black Hearted Hag Lied to me! You can run Mrs Cruikshank but you
can't hide.
Marty
> Good job!
>
>
> Michael Leo ml...@cariboulake.com Java, J2EE
> Caribou Lake Software http://www.cariboulake.com Oracle, Ingres,
> DB2, Websphere
>
> The smallest good deed is better than the greatest intention.
>
--
Random Earthworm Jim Quote #1:
Jim - Superheroes and Evil twins go togethor like Peanut Butter and ....
Evil Peanut Butter.
Mason, Paul
> At 08:49 AM 2/12/2002 +1100, Martin Bowes wrote:
> >Hi Everyone,
> >
> > Hasn't this been a popular thread!
> >
> > Paul should be congratulated for bravery on this issue.
> He made a rod for
> > his own back and copped a fair caning from all - including me!
> >
> > Kudos, Browny Points and a big elephant stamp to him.
> >
> > Martin Bowes
> >--
> >Random Earthworm Jim Quote #11:
> >Jim - Gasp of astonishment!
>
> Paul,
>
> Hopefully you understood the above as praise. I personally
> don't want a 'big elephant stamp' ;-}
>
> Good job!
>
Well it will come in useful next time I need to send elephant mail.
:0)
Paul
Graham Jakins
the elephant.
Nice to see you are keeping up the good work Paul - I guess all you need to
do now is come down here and get some sunshine.
Graham