Re: [Info-Ingres] [openroad-users] Column Encryption
Paul White
Hi Greg,
You might want to ask this question at the Ingres forum and you will get a much better response.
The address I use is info-...@kettleriverconsulting.com
kind regards
Paul
From: openroa...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:openroa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Wilding
Sent: Tuesday, 23 February 2010 11:36 AM
To: openroa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [openroad-users] Column Encryption
All,
does any version of Ingres have the ability to internally encrypt a column.
Regards
Gregory Wilding
Enterprise Services
ING Australia
Level 6, 347 Kent Street, SYDNEY. 2000
T (02)
9234 7435
F (02)
9234 6977
E greg.w...@ing.com.au
Michael Touloumtzis
This is a feature of the upcoming Ingres 10 release. You can find
details on the Ingres DBMS projects page:
http://community.ingres.com/wiki/Ingres_DBMS_Projects
Regards,
Mike Touloumtzis
Greg Wilding
does any version of Ingres have the ability to internally encrypt a column.
Regards
Gregory Wilding
Enterprise
Services
ING
Australia
Level
6, 347 Kent Street, SYDNEY. 2000
T (02) 9234
7435
F (02) 9234
6977
E
greg.w...@ing.com.au
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Ingres Forums
Hello ,
No not possible at this time, this will come with Ingres 10.
Regards.
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magxa01
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Ingres Forums
'At-Rest' encryption is on the Ingres 10 product road map. Should be
available mid this year with Ingres release 10. This is a big deal and
has a lot of visibility within/outside the company. I am personally
looking forward to it as well.
Tyler
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Martin Bowes
Ditto, This is probably more useful to me than MVCC!
Martin Bowes
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Info-...@kettleriverconsulting.com
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James K. Lowden
>
> Ditto, This is probably more useful to me than MVCC!
Why?
A database's job is to keep data. One might argue that "protect" is part
of "keep", and that access control is part of a database server's job.
But I don't understand the enthusiam for encryption in the database. It's
a little like asking the fire department to burn down the house.�Data
properly protected don't need to be encrypted.
--jkl
Roy Hann
It will depend on what we each mean by encryption, and what we expect
from it. I do firmly believe that putting anything in a database is the
first step to releasing it into the wild. If you really, really want to
keep something confidential, either don't put it in a form that can be
replicated perfectly on an industrial scale, or else encrypt each value
individually.
Note that I say "individually". There is little real marginal benefit
to encrypting an entire database at rest, and I think that's maybe what
you are getting at James. Data is almost always stolen/lost by the
people who have legitimate access to the database; people who
legitimately have the key.
You also have to consider the intangible benefit of being able to claim
that your product supports encryption. It denies the competing products
a chance to seem somehow more complete. Whether it's a feature that
anyone will really use or really benefit from is sort of irrelevant if
it looks good on a feature matrix.
PS: I think encrypting disk drives is an excellent idea, especially
hot-swap disks and laptop disks. And tapes. And flash drives.
PPS: MVCC is going to be life-changing for a lot of people.
--
Roy
UK Ingres User Association Conference 2010 will be on Tuesday June 8 2010
Go to http://www.iua.org.uk/join to get on the mailing list.
Mike
It's becoming a regulatory requirement round here in the medical world.
Regardless of whether it makes sense, being able to say that your data
is encrypted "at rest" ticks the auditor's boxes and they go away happy.
There are a number of ways of achieving this, but having it encrypted in
the database is possibly the most convincing to an outside observer
because you can run "select column from table" and point to the gibberish...
Mike.
Paul Mason
> -----Original Message-----
> From: info-ingr...@kettleriverconsulting.com [mailto:info-
> ingres-...@kettleriverconsulting.com] On Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: 12 March 2010 14:38
> To: info-...@kettleriverconsulting.com
> Subject: Re: [Info-Ingres] Column Encryption
>
How about a new trace point:
SET AUDITOR_MODE ON
And then any column defined as "encrypted" returns randomly generated
gibberish?
Just kidding. Must be Friday...
Roy Hann
I have no objection to ticking boxes if it is cheap and easy. I have
rather more objection to investing lots of time and effort in
doing something that is actually futile, and doubly so if doing it
lulls people into not taking other steps that really would be
effective (like encrypting the disks and vetting the staff).
One could hope these hypothetical auditors of yours are not
so easily satisfied as you say. :-)
Cory Nemelka
--cnemelka
Mark R. Winston
[snip]Even with encrypted disks, proper vetting of
> staff, appropriate access controls, etc, it still is an significant
> issue that "select column from table" shows sensitive data
> in clear-text.
...not to suggest that you've overlooked this, but even when the tables
and/or databases are encrypted if the *session* connecting to the
encrypted objects is not then you're exposed in a way that's much
simpler to penetrate.
IMO, having encrypted columns is another important
> "security layer". On the down side, I think the implementation of
> encrypted columns, if not done properly, would be a nightmare......
INGRES DBMS supports Kerberos integration, but it doesn't yet support
LDAP integration, which IMO, is preferable to encrypted databases. If I
have LDAP access control, "fortifide" with Kerberos, and if I'm forcing
the use of SSL certificates, then I can prevent the execution of any
queries not authorized for a particular user which relies on an
integrated set of technologies.
Even features like Oracle (Enterprise) Security Labels don't account for
the "modern" computing infrastructure which is most often servicing
sessions that are distributed across a variety of internal and external
networks. Simply relying on DBMS internal security, including
encryption, is an incomplete security model.
Samba 4 is on the way, with the ability to act as a Domain Controller,
making managing LDAP, and integrating such with Microsoft Active
Directory, quite simple. I would love to see INGRES DBMS support LDAP
integration, where when integrated with Samba, you'd have the ability to
control not only the access to the DBMS objects, but also the access to
the file system objects, providing an end-to-end security model without
the overhead of multiple local DBMS and system accounts and without the
overhead of table and/or database encryption.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark R. Winston
www.datavailable.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Roy Hann
> <spec...@processed.almost.meat> wrote:
>
> _______________________________________________
> Info-Ingres mailing list
> Info-...@kettleriverconsulting.com
> <mailto:Info-...@kettleriverconsulting.com>
> http://ext-cando.kettleriverconsulting.com/mailman/listinfo/info-ingres
Cory Nemelka
--cnemelka
On 3/12/2010 12:06 PM, Cory Nemelka wrote:
[snip]Even with encrypted disks, proper vetting of
> staff, appropriate access controls, etc, it still is an significant...not to suggest that you've overlooked this, but even when the tables
> issue that "select column from table" shows sensitive data
> in clear-text.
and/or databases are encrypted if the *session* connecting to the
encrypted objects is not then you're exposed in a way that's much
simpler to penetrate.
INGRES DBMS supports Kerberos integration, but it doesn't yet support
IMO, having encrypted columns is another important
> "security layer". On the down side, I think the implementation of
> encrypted columns, if not done properly, would be a nightmare......
LDAP integration, which IMO, is preferable to encrypted databases. If I
have LDAP access control, "fortifide" with Kerberos, and if I'm forcing
the use of SSL certificates, then I can prevent the execution of any
queries not authorized for a particular user which relies on an
integrated set of technologies.
Even features like Oracle (Enterprise) Security Labels don't account for
the "modern" computing infrastructure which is most often servicing
sessions that are distributed across a variety of internal and external
networks. Simply relying on DBMS internal security, including
encryption, is an incomplete security model.
Samba 4 is on the way, with the ability to act as a Domain Controller,
making managing LDAP, and integrating such with Microsoft Active
Directory, quite simple. I would love to see INGRES DBMS support LDAP
integration, where when integrated with Samba, you'd have the ability to
control not only the access to the DBMS objects, but also the access to
the file system objects, providing an end-to-end security model without
the overhead of multiple local DBMS and system accounts and without the
overhead of table and/or database encryption.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark R. Winston
www.datavailable.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Roy Hann
> <spec...@processed.almost.meat> wrote:
>
> _______________________________________________
> Info-Ingres mailing list
> Info-...@kettleriverconsulting.com
Armand Pirvu
I can pass along the how to if anyone is interested, along with the how to for Kerberos.
The nice thing is that you can compile ingvalidpam for your platform so you can use it with other releases like 9.1.2 for example.
To be noted that ingvalidpam preserves ingvalidpw functionality
Hope this helps
Armand
From: Mark R. Winston <wins...@datavailable.com>
To: info-...@kettleriverconsulting.com
Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 11:37:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Info-Ingres] Column Encryption
On 3/12/2010 12:06 PM, Cory Nemelka wrote:
[snip]Even with encrypted disks, proper vetting of
> staff, appropriate access controls, etc, it still is an significant
> issue that "select column from table" shows sensitive data
> in clear-text.
...not to suggest that you've overlooked this, but even when the tables
and/or databases are encrypted if the *session* connecting to the
encrypted objects is not then you're exposed in a way that's much
simpler to penetrate.
IMO, having encrypted columns is another important
> "security layer". On the down side, I think the implementation of
> encrypted columns, if not done properly, would be a nightmare......
INGRES DBMS supports Kerberos integration, but it doesn't yet support
LDAP integration, which IMO, is preferable to encrypted databases. If I
have LDAP access control, "fortifide" with Kerberos, and if I'm forcing
the use of SSL certificates, then I can prevent the execution of any
queries not authorized for a particular user which relies on an
integrated set of technologies.
Even features like Oracle (Enterprise) Security Labels don't account for
the "modern" computing infrastructure which is most often servicing
sessions that are distributed across a variety of internal and external
networks. Simply relying on DBMS internal security, including
encryption, is an incomplete security model.
making managing LDAP, and integrating such with Microsoft Active
Directory, quite simple. I would love to see INGRES DBMS support LDAP
integration, where when integrated with Samba, you'd have the ability to
control not only the access to the DBMS objects, but also the access to
the file system objects, providing an end-to-end security model without
the overhead of multiple local DBMS and system accounts and without the
overhead of table and/or database encryption.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark R. Winston
www.datavailable.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Roy Hann
> <spec...@processed.almost.meat> wrote:
>
Ingres Forums
In 9.3 there is ingvalidpam which supports LDAP/PAM integration.
I can pass along the how to if anyone is interested, along with the how
to for Kerberos.
The nice thing is that you can compile ingvalidpam for your platform so
you can use it with other releases like 9.1.2 for example.
To be noted that ingvalidpam preserves ingvalidpw functionality
Hope this helps
Armand
--
armand...@ingres.com
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Mike
Did I say they were hypothetical?
As others have said, defence in depth is the best approach, but my
experience is that auditors I deal with seem to place more faith in
anything with the word "encryption", and less faith in what they
perceive as "weak" methods such as "access control".
However, it's more convincing to say that the data reside
- on an encrypted volume
- to which access is controlled
- and that personal identifiers are encrypted within the volume
than to simply say one of the above.
I calculated recently that I had spent almost 10% of my work-time this
year saying the above, or similar, to differening regulators on
different studies...
Mike.
Ingres Forums
Meanwhile... I remember there was an example how to "extend" our beloved
Ingres with new "commands" somewhere. And if I remember well, example
shows how to implement MD5 digest, so one can actually use
MD5('something') on Ingres. Unfortunately, I do not remember where I
found it. :( I think it is somewhere on the Ingres wiki.
--
dejan
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Grant Croker
Meanwhile... I remember there was an example how to "extend" our beloved
Ingres with new "commands" somewhere. And if I remember well, example
shows how to implement MD5 digest, so one can actually use
MD5('something') on Ingres. Unfortunately, I do not remember where I
found it. :( I think it is somewhere on the Ingres wiki.
-- Grant Croker, Ingres Corp Ingres PHP and Ruby maintainer http://blogs.planetingres.org/grant The World Wide Web is the only thing I know of whose shortened form - www - takes three times longer to say than what it's short for.
Paul Mason
http://community.ingres.com/wiki/OME:_User_Defined_Functions
Cheers
Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: info-ingr...@kettleriverconsulting.com [mailto:info-
> ingres-...@kettleriverconsulting.com] On Behalf Of Ingres Forums
> Sent: 25 March 2010 18:05
> To: info-...@kettleriverconsulting.com
> Subject: Re: [Info-Ingres] Column Encryption
>
>