Proving prior art of compression algorithm
rrrlasse
lawsuits against me in the future. But because I'm not sure what to do
with the algorithm yet, I'd like to keep it closed source for now.
So I got the idea to publish an encrypted version. I hope it's OK that
I drop it here, even though it's 22 KB. Also if anybody else should
have ideas on where to post it, let me know :)
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0000020: a802 3739 a71e 19bf 9162 009f b446 8b36 ..79.....b...F.6
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mike
c7e318...@y23g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, l...@quicklz.com says...
> I've developed a new compression algorithm and want to prevent patent
> lawsuits against me in the future. But because I'm not sure what to do
> with the algorithm yet, I'd like to keep it closed source for now.
>
> So I got the idea to publish an encrypted version. I hope it's OK that
> I drop it here, even though it's 22 KB. Also if anybody else should
> have ideas on where to post it, let me know :)
>
> 0000000: 8c0d 0403 0302 b671 1a4b c037 4212 60c9 .......q.K.7B.`.
... etc, etc, etc ...
My limited understanding of patent law leads me to believe that the
essence of a patentable algorithm is the algorithm itself rather than in
the code used to convert it into a program or procedure (the code itself
might be protected by copyright laws).
For example, Ertasthenes (in a very different world) would patent the
algorithm:
"Build a list of all the integers greater than one and less than or
equal to n. Strike out the multiples of all primes less than or equal to
the square root of n, then the numbers that are left are the primes",
and copyright the code:
int n = 50
array a
int i, j
a[1] = 0
for i in 2 .. n let a[i] = 1
int p = 2
repeat
j = p * p
while j <= n
a[j] = 0
let j + p
do
p + 1
until a[p] = 1
until (p * p) > n
So, unless your algorithm is so complicated that it would take more than
22k of text to describe it (and assuming that teh algorithm can usefully
compress data), you would be better protected and we would have suffered
a lesser volume of garbage by
a) describing your algorithm in text
b) encripting it
c) compress the encrypted text with _your_ algorithm
d) post a bit_to_string representation of the compressed data
Cheers,
Mike
rrrlasse
> 22k of text to describe it (and assuming that teh algorithm can usefully
> compress data), you would be better protected and we would have suffered
> a lesser volume of garbage by
> a) describing your algorithm in text
> b) encripting it
> c) compress the encrypted text with _your_ algorithm
> d) post a bit_to_string representation of the compressed data
Hi Mike,
You're correct. But my problem is that it takes a patent lawyer to
describe it if it must be bullet proof against lawsuit attacks. Even
then, it will always per definition be a subset of your full
implementation - there might be tricks and quirks that you though of
as being obvious that suddenly violate something.
By the way, the reason I'm careful is because I've once experienced
that EMC patended an advice I gave on comp.compression. So I won't
take any risks in the future.
My idea:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nyhedsgrupper: comp.compression
Dato: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:42:42 +0200
...
...
A funny idea - you could compress a small part of the the file with
QuickLZ
first (so fast that it has negligible CPU usage) and multiply that
compression ratio by some constant to estimate that of zlib.
Lasse Reinhold
EMC patent:
---------------------------------------------------------------
United States Patent 7719443
Filing Date: 06/27/2008
2. The method of claim 1 wherein compressing data using a first
algorithm to form compressed data comprises compressing data using
a QuickLZ algorithm, and wherein compressing the compressed data using
a second algorithm comprises compressing the compressed data
using a GZIP algorithm.
mike
@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>, l...@quicklz.com says...
> > So, unless your algorithm is so complicated that it would take more than
> > 22k of text to describe it (and assuming that teh algorithm can usefully
> > compress data), you would be better protected and we would have suffered
> > a lesser volume of garbage by
> > a) describing your algorithm in text
> > b) encripting it
> > c) compress the encrypted text with _your_ algorithm
> > d) post a bit_to_string representation of the compressed data
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> You're correct. But my problem is that it takes a patent lawyer to
> describe it if it must be bullet proof against lawsuit attacks. Even
> then, it will always per definition be a subset of your full
> implementation - there might be tricks and quirks that you though of
> as being obvious that suddenly violate something.
>
> By the way, the reason I'm careful is because I've once experienced
> that EMC patended an advice I gave on comp.compression. So I won't
> take any risks in the future.
>
program that may compress data (lets assume it does), you haven't made
any 'claims' regarding what (or were within) is unique and innovative in
your program. In other words, if I invent an anti-gravity machine, a
working example of such a machine will be useful to help me to prove my
idea works, but the machine itself provides no patent protection for the
science/technology/whatever used within it.
You may be able to use your program as evidence of prior invention if,
at some later time, you and another both apply for patents using the
same algorithm, but you might be on shaky grounds if you sit around and
wait for someone else to patent and/or use the technology and then
_later_ try to make a patent claim on it.
Mike
rrrlasse
> You may be able to use your program as evidence of prior invention if,
> at some later time, you and another both apply for patents using the
> same algorithm, but you might be on shaky grounds if you sit around and
> wait for someone else to patent and/or use the technology and then
> _later_ try to make a patent claim on it.
As I stated in my original post, my primary motive is to protect me
against lawsuits after having released my product - not to use the
proof offensively.
rrrlasse
> On Nov 16, 5:55 pm, rrrlasse <l...@quicklz.com> wrote:> I've developed a new compression algorithm and want to prevent patent
> > lawsuits against me in the future. But because I'm not sure what to do
> > with the algorithm yet, I'd like to keep it closed source for now.
>
> > So I got the idea to publish an encrypted version. I hope it's OK that
> > I drop it here, even though it's 22 KB. Also if anybody else should
> > have ideas on where to post it, let me know :)
>
> > 0000000: 8c0d 0403 0302 b671 1a4b c037 4212 60c9 .......q.K.7B.`.
>
>
> Buy and study very carefully
>
> Patent It Yourself: Your Step-by-step Guide to Filing at the U.S.
> Patent Office by David Pressman, Nolo Press (October 2009)
>
> After that, if you still want to do this, buy and study very carefully
>
> Inventor's Notebook: A "Patent It Yourself" Companion by Fred E.
> Grissom, Jr. , David Pressman, Nolo Press (June 2008)
> and
> How to Make Patent Drawings: A Patent It Yourself Companion by David
> Pressman, Jack Lo, Nolo Press (August 2007)
>
> These contain decades of wise advice on this subject, far more than
> their price would get you from a quarter hour with a competent patent
> attorney.
Hmm awsome, thanks :)
Mark Nelson
> I've developed a new compression algorithm and want to prevent patent
> lawsuits against me in the future. But because I'm not sure what to do
> with the algorithm yet, I'd like to keep it closed source for now.
>
> So I got the idea to publish an encrypted version. I hope it's OK that
> I drop it here, even though it's 22 KB. Also if anybody else should
> have ideas on where to post it, let me know :)
Nothing wrong with what you are doing, but it's important to note a
few things.
Outside of the US, most countries use a first-to-file system, so
establishing priority doesn't do much good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_to_file_and_first_to_invent
The US does use first-to-invent, but should someone else file ahead of
you, you face an upstream battle to overturn their patent. It's pretty
tough to prove you were first to invent. All they need is a dated lab
notebook that shows the idea precedes your publication, and they win.
The best way to protect your patent rights is to preemptively file,
and that's expensive.
Making your invention public might be just as good as publishing the
encrypted version.
- Mark
Thomas Richter
> I've developed a new compression algorithm and want to prevent patent
> lawsuits against me in the future. But because I'm not sure what to do
> with the algorithm yet, I'd like to keep it closed source for now.
>
> So I got the idea to publish an encrypted version. I hope it's OK that
> I drop it here, even though it's 22 KB. Also if anybody else should
> have ideas on where to post it, let me know :)
Posts like this make me feel pretty sad about the state of this
newsgroup. After all, if the overall interest of this post would be to
present a novel idea, it should have gone to a conference and be
discussed there by experts, or the idea should have been posted.
If the idea of the invention was commercial success, a usable product or
any other "trial" version would be appreciated to demonstrate the
idea works and the product is worth its money.
If the idea was to protect the idea, posting an encrypted version
provides little; the claim is as unclear as it could be since details
are omitted, the "encrypted" version could be almost anything, including
data from /dev/random. So it doesn't provide any signs of ingenuity.
Thus, my question really is that: What's the purpose of all this? It's
not suitable to protect an idea (use a patent) or to commercialize a
product (keep it proprietary and sell the product) or drive science
further (publish a paper on this). In either case, the post is
inappropriate to reach such goals.
There are only two conclusions:
a) just another troll,
b) just another half-baked idea what hasn't really been tried.
I currently tend towards a).
Greetings,
Thomas
rrrlasse
Nah, after all I'm behind www.quicklz.com which is pretty successful.
Captain Obvious
TR> provides little; the claim is as unclear as it could be since details
TR> are omitted, the "encrypted" version could be almost anything,
TR> including data from /dev/random. So it doesn't provide any signs of
TR> ingenuity.
----
In 1660, Hooke discovered the law of elasticity which bears his name and
which describes the linear variation of tension with extension in an elastic
spring. He first described this discovery in the anagram "ceiiinosssttuv",
whose solution he published in 1678 as "Ut tensio, sic vis" meaning "As the
extension, so the force."
It is interesting from a twentieth-century vantage point that Hooke first
announced his law of elasticity as an anagram. This was a method sometimes
used by scientists, such as Hooke, Huygens, Galileo, and others, to
establish priority for a discovery without revealing details.
----
George Johnson
"rrrlasse" <l...@quicklz.com> wrote in message
news:82fa3774-33ef-4ff5...@y23g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> I've developed a new compression algorithm and want to prevent patent
> lawsuits against me in the future. But because I'm not sure what to do
> with the algorithm yet, I'd like to keep it closed source for now.
>
> So I got the idea to publish an encrypted version. I hope it's OK that
> I drop it here, even though it's 22 KB. Also if anybody else should
> have ideas on where to post it, let me know :)
[encrypted code clipped]
One hint on encrypting plaintext.
Try not to have predictable beginning symbols which lead to easy
prediction of the keys.
Not going to post the decrypted code, just a friendly reminder
considering that the few common programming languages have rather
predictable start symbols.
Helps to shake things up with a few randomized commented lines just for
this very purpose.
mike
udod...@users.sourceforge.net says...
> TR> If the idea was to protect the idea, posting an encrypted version
> TR> provides little; the claim is as unclear as it could be since details
> TR> are omitted, the "encrypted" version could be almost anything,
> TR> including data from /dev/random. So it doesn't provide any signs of
> TR> ingenuity.
>
decryption algorithm. Then a third party can decrypt your code an
determine that you _did_ have a valid algorithm.
Of course your decryption has to be algorithmically simple - no use
turning up with a one-time-use substitution code.
--
Mike
rrrlasse
> turning up with a one-time-use substitution code.
Uhm... I used gpg that comes with Linux.