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collectio...@googlemail.com  
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(2 users)  More options Aug 18 2007, 1:52 pm
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: collectio...@googlemail.com
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:52:25 -0700
Local: Sat, Aug 18 2007 1:52 pm
Subject: Re: Compression by descent
On Aug 17, 5:54 pm, Ashley Labowitz <sporecoun...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well this is frustrating.  Everytime I think I got the bugs out, the
> files still come out wrong.  The bug affects even the simple test
> files I wrote about in an earlier post (even the 500 null byte file
> comes back with lots of non-null bytes).  I've been coding nonstop all
> week, so I'm going to take some time to empty my mind and get a fresh
> start.

> collectio...@googlemail.com, rest assured that it seems very serious
> from my PoV.

Then maybe you'll finally listen to what we were saying all along? It
is impossible to compress random data, and anyone who can understand
basic logic can prove the same.

Either you are a troll or a fantastically self-deluded person who
almost makes me feel sorry for you, despite the unlikelyness of any
sane person falling for such self-delusion.


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Ashley Labowitz  
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(1 user)  More options Aug 18 2007, 5:12 pm
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: Ashley Labowitz <sporecoun...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:12:41 -0700
Local: Sat, Aug 18 2007 5:12 pm
Subject: Re: Compression by descent
Don't forget that fractals have _unlimited_ self-similarity at smaller
and smaller scales.  Thus, the complexity for bits can always be
borrowed, with promises to repay with information contained in not-yet-
computed smaller scales (it's good enough for the the
government* :) ).  This algorithm is the key to "bit splicing" as I
call it, evading the pigeonhole principle which only applies to finite
sets (the fractal complexity is not even countable). I'd be surprised
if even the most seasoned members of this group had heard of the
Promise model of random compression.

* I try to be politics and country-of-origin neutral in fora like this
one.  Sadly, I think this comment is basically true ubiquitously.

However, I found this technique too difficult to code in it's native
form.  In any case, due to the very nature of self-similarity (it
being derived from a fixed equation after all), it's not clear how to
use it to encode unlimited entropy.  This required using the cyclic
roots and rotation method.

Nevertheless, I now have the decompression tentatively resolved
(fingers crossed).  It's not coded up, but I can show that using
Perfect numbers (Mersenne primes based on powers of two for the
bifurcation) will recall the granularity level of the 'bit dust".
Because of the Lyapunov chaos exponent of the polynomial in question,
I have to multiply by 3.  I'm calling these Gerfect numbers.  I'm
looking into some number theory textbooks from the library to find
theorems relating to k-smooth numbers because the fractal dimensions
are related to highly abundant numbers (not sure how, but I keep
seeing it in the data).


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Sportman  
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 More options Aug 18 2007, 5:45 pm
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: Sportman <sport...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:45:49 -0700
Local: Sat, Aug 18 2007 5:45 pm
Subject: Re: Compression by descent
On 18 aug, 23:12, Ashley Labowitz <sporecoun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Because of the Lyapunov chaos exponent of the polynomial in question,
> I have to multiply by 3.  I'm calling these Gerfect numbers.  I'm
> looking into some number theory textbooks from the library to find
> theorems relating to k-smooth numbers because the fractal dimensions
> are related to highly abundant numbers (not sure how, but I keep
> seeing it in the data).

Nature is repeating 3 in 3:
http://www.globalscaling.de/images/stories/pdf/gscompv10.pdf
http://www.globalscaling.de/images/stories/pdf/zahlentheorie.pdf
(German)

Prime numbers are also a repeating pattern what can be calculated:
http://www.calculateprimes.com/BookDVDOrderSubPage.HTM


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Hans-Peter Diettrich  
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(1 user)  More options Aug 18 2007, 6:12 pm
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettri...@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 00:12:10 +0200
Local: Sat, Aug 18 2007 6:12 pm
Subject: Re: Compression by descent

collectio...@googlemail.com wrote:
> Then maybe you'll finally listen to what we were saying all along? It
> is impossible to compress random data, and anyone who can understand
> basic logic can prove the same.

Why?

There exist (pseudo) random generators, whose output *is* random, until
you find the used algorithm and start conditions.

The only criterium for randomness, which I remember, is the
impossibility of the prediction of the *next* value, from all the
history. This obviously doesn't apply to files, which are closed before
compression, so that there doesn't exist a "next" element past EOF.

DoDi


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Sportman  
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 More options Aug 18 2007, 6:48 pm
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: Sportman <sport...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:48:26 -0700
Local: Sat, Aug 18 2007 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: Compression by descent
Marko Rodin invented an own math what accoording to him can also
solute the random compression problem but mostly he is know for his
Rodin Coil:

His websites:
http://www.rodinproject.com
http://www.rodinmath.com

Jeff Rense interview:
http://markorodin.com/Marko_Rodin_Jeff_Rense_Interview.mp4

I wanted to add a link to Marko Rodin video's where he explains his
theory to math teachers but this video's are not online anymore. I
found this bad video where they made a small cut from it started at
4:17 min:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2874916987641932188


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Thomas Richter  
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(1 user)  More options Aug 19 2007, 2:15 pm
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: Thomas Richter <t...@math.tu-berlin.de>
Date: 19 Aug 2007 18:15:38 GMT
Local: Sun, Aug 19 2007 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: Compression by descent

Ashley Labowitz <sporecoun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't forget that fractals have _unlimited_ self-similarity at smaller
> and smaller scales.  Thus, the complexity for bits can always be
> borrowed, with promises to repay with information contained in not-yet-
> computed smaller scales (it's good enough for the the
> government* :) ).  This algorithm is the key to "bit splicing" as I
> call it, evading the pigeonhole principle which only applies to finite
> sets (the fractal complexity is not even countable).

Very fine, but all your input data is finite by nature (the files on your harddisk)
and your output data is (hopefully) finite as well, so that buys you nothing.
And, of course the counting theorem applies for finite sets.

> I'd be surprised
> if even the most seasoned members of this group had heard of the
> Promise model of random compression.

What I don't get: Do you really know what you're talking about? You want
to make us believe that you've managed to get an understanding in fractals,
but yet deny to accept something as simple as the counting argument.

Or even elementary logic, if that counts. If you can compress every
file, then you can apply your compressor to its output immediatly again
and, by induction, arrive at a file that is - zero bits long. Thus,
effectively, you claim to be able to compress everything to nothing.

Well, I can do that as well:

rm *

Problem is: There is no decompressor.

> However, I found this technique too difficult to code in it's native
> form.  In any case, due to the very nature of self-similarity (it
> being derived from a fixed equation after all), it's not clear how to
> use it to encode unlimited entropy.  This required using the cyclic
> roots and rotation method.

Actually, are you just repeating some words you collected here and there,
or do you understand what you say? I suppose the former?

> Nevertheless, I now have the decompression tentatively resolved
> (fingers crossed).  

No, you haven't.

> It's not coded up,

As I said, you haven't.

> but I can show that using
> Perfect numbers (Mersenne primes based on powers of two for the
> bifurcation) will recall the granularity level of the 'bit dust".

Are we playing a round of buzzword bingo today? A perfect number is a
number which is the sum of its proper divisors. For example, 6 is a
perfect number since 1+2+3 = 6. Primes are never perfect.

> Because of the Lyapunov chaos exponent of the polynomial in question,
> I have to multiply by 3.

Liapunov exponents are defines for dynamical systems, not for polynomials.
So what is your system? Why "3". huh?

> I'm calling these Gerfect numbers.  I'm
> looking into some number theory textbooks from the library to find
> theorems relating to k-smooth numbers because the fractal dimensions
> are related to highly abundant numbers (not sure how, but I keep
> seeing it in the data).

Don't look into number theory textbooks. I recommend locking yourself into
your room, sit back for a day and think cleany on what you claim. It
doesn't require a math education to see the mistake.

Alternatively, three or for hints on the forehead should be applied.

As entertaining as it is, I guess it's time to stop this comedy. Otherwise,
I recommend to divide an angle by three with compass and ruler, find
the root of an arbitary 5th order polynomial or construct a square of
the area of a circle with ruler and compass, and post results here. It
will be also an enjoyable reading. (-:

So long,
        Thomas


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markn@ieee.org  
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 More options Aug 19 2007, 2:34 pm
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: "ma...@ieee.org" <snorkel...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:34:28 -0000
Local: Sun, Aug 19 2007 2:34 pm
Subject: Re: Compression by descent
On Aug 18, 5:48 pm, Sportman <sport...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Marko Rodin invented an own math what accoording to him can also
> solute the random compression problem but mostly he is know for his

What is the "random compression problem?"

|
| Mark Nelson - http://marknelson.us
|


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Sportman  
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(1 user)  More options Aug 19 2007, 6:27 pm
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: Sportman <sport...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:27:04 -0000
Local: Sun, Aug 19 2007 6:27 pm
Subject: Re: Compression by descent
On 19 aug, 20:34, "ma...@ieee.org" <snorkel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What is the "random compression problem?"

Describing all kinds of data (including random data) with a shorter
description in a way that the process can be reversed.

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Hans-Peter Diettrich  
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(2 users)  More options Aug 19 2007, 7:16 pm
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettri...@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 01:16:12 +0200
Local: Sun, Aug 19 2007 7:16 pm
Subject: Re: Compression by descent

Sportman wrote:
>>What is the "random compression problem?"

> Describing all kinds of data (including random data) with a shorter
> description in a way that the process can be reversed.

That's impossible in that generality :-(

1) It's impossible to compress files of a size of 1 byte to anything
shorter.

2) There exist at most 256 different files of 1 byte, 256^2 files of 2
bytes, and so on. You cannot compress all the 2-byte files to 1-byte
files, because you only can uncompress the 1-byte files into 256^1
different files, not into 256^2 different files. I.e. at most 256
distinct 2-byte files can be compressed at all, the other 65280 possible
2-byte files are incompressible. The percentage of compressible files
becomes dramatically lower, the longer the considered files are.

DoDi


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Ashley Labowitz  
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(1 user)  More options Aug 19 2007, 8:49 pm
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: Ashley Labowitz <sporecoun...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:49:36 -0700
Local: Sun, Aug 19 2007 8:49 pm
Subject: Re: Compression by descent
Dear Thomas,

> > but I can show that using
> > Perfect numbers (Mersenne primes based on powers of two for the
> > bifurcation) will recall the granularity level of the 'bit dust".

> Are we playing a round of buzzword bingo today? A perfect number is a
> number which is the sum of its proper divisors. For example, 6 is a
> perfect number since 1+2+3 = 6. Primes are never perfect.

Please allow me to clarify.  Mersenne primes are not the numbers I'm
using, but I mentioned them parenthetically because they illustrate
the crucial property I need better than the term "Perfect numbers,"
since not everyone is aware of the structure of Perfect numbers.
Mersenne primes are intimately connected with all even perfect numbers
(including 6, your example).  To see more about the connection, I
recommend you read this page: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PerfectNumber.html
.

Best,
Ash


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Ashley Labowitz  
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(1 user)  More options Aug 21 2007, 4:54 pm
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: Ashley Labowitz <sporecoun...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:54:25 -0700
Local: Tues, Aug 21 2007 4:54 pm
Subject: Re: Compression by descent
Decompression still not reached, maybe bifurcation was a red herring.
If it is possible to access this data, no one will work harder than
I.  I'm still confident.  The data is working as a motivator, as
expected :)

Thanks everyone, for your polite comments.  I think the takeaway from
this for all of us is that voices have been heard on both sides in
this thread illustrating the healthy debate among experts on whether
random data can be compressed.


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