Machining Tips!
jon_banquer
Jon Banquer
San Diego, CA
http://jonbanquer.blogspot.com/
John R. Carroll
> First Machining Tip Added To The Jon Banquer Blog.
>
Had you any real experience, you'd be using a vacuum chuck Jon.
It's not possible to "squeeze" a part identically in a vice every time you
change over.
Here is a machining "Tit" for ya'.
http://www.ibagnorthamerica.com/vacuum.htm
--
John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
jon_banquer
vacuum chuck if you don't need to and a vise will work fine!
If anyone is interested I'd be happy to post pictures of our numerous
vacuum-holding systems some of which are made by IBAG and many of
which we make ourselves.
John R. Carroll
> There is not reason to change out a vice
No kidding.
You just clamp the chuck in your vice.
You can even use that fancy and useless five axis stop you swear by to
locate the thing.
By doing so, you can make your chucks in advance if something custom is
necessary.
Otherwise, you buy standard stock and change out O-Rings. You can do that in
sewconds if the guy generating the set up documents and code knows what he's
doing. Ask him.
>
> If anyone is interested I'd be happy to post pictures of our numerous
> vacuum-holding systems some of which are made by IBAG and many of
> which we make ourselves.
Why don't you let the quality of your work dictate the level of interest
Jon?
Put up something you have done yourself.
jon_banquer
Jon Banquer
John R. Carroll
Yeah,
That's what I thought.
jon_banquer
Joe788
Haha! Was that a test to see how quickly you could get Jon to revert
back to broken record mode?
jon_banquer
John R. Carroll
Just wanted to see if I still "Owned" him.
LOL
jon_banquer
Half-nutz
jon_banquer
Cliff
wrote:
>First Machining Tip Added To The Jon Banquer Blog.
[
Tip 1:
I frequently machine plastic parts and don’t wish to waste time machining two
sides parallel so I can hold the material so the part won’t move while it’s
being cut.
]
Gee .... where's the locating datum?
Cutting that off too?
[
Also, I usually don’t have much material to waste / hold on. To accomplish this
task I put a set of aluminum soft jaws in a vise and tighten the jaws against a
small parallel with approximately the same pressure as I will use to hold the
chuck of plastic. I then mill a .030 deep step with a 1/2? 3 flute carbide end
mill on both jaws. Next I insert a dovetail cutter and mill a dovetail in both
the fixed and moveable jaw. I then come back and cut off the burr that the
dovetail cutter leaves making sure to push the burr away from the edge of the
dovetail. Finally I use the end mill to create “teeth” in the dovetail so that
the plastic part can’t slide. The whole process can be done in less than ten
minutes and results in a cheap way to hold and mill plastic parts. It’s so fast
I don’t even bother to save the aluminum soft jaws and instead just make them
whenever I need them.
]
Can anybody suggest a better way to waste time, material, jaws, &
etc. while still making scrap (claimed) parts in an unsafe manner?
<Sheesh ..> "1/2? 3 flute carbide" .... LOL ... as if anything else could
not cut a little bit of soft Alumiinum ..... even when used by an idiot
doing (or claiming to) something stupid to begin with ...
I think he made this up today based on a post in AMC by
a real machinist ... and got it all wrong again, as usual.
A total hoot !!!
(Don't let this guy touch a power tool!!)
--
Cliff
jon_banquer
Jon Banquer
jon_banqueer
Wow, to say that I outdid myself on the first tip would be an
understatement. Can you believe how clever (and simple) it is? I
hope you all are eagerly awaiting the next tip. I can just imagine
the excitement out there while everyone is waiting for number 2.
Jon Banquer
San Diego, CAhttp://jonbanquerbogspot.com/
jon_banquer
Cliff
>On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:19:59 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer <jon_b...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>First Machining Tip Added To The Jon Banquer Blog.
>
>[
>Tip 1:
>
>I frequently machine plastic parts and don’t wish to waste time machining two
>sides parallel so I can hold the material so the part won’t move while it’s
>being cut.
>]
>
> Gee .... where's the locating datum?
> Cutting that off too?
>
>[
>Also, I usually don’t have much material to waste / hold on. To accomplish this
>task I put a set of aluminum soft jaws in a vise and tighten the jaws against a
>small parallel with approximately the same pressure as I will use to hold the
>chuck of plastic.
Is that like a woodchuck? We have some you could have if you pay for
trapping, shiping & CA importation.
PLUS it more of your typical idiocy.
The fixed jaw is FIXED.
The other jaw needs to be well-held for machining or chatter
will get you. FIRMLY clamping a 123 block or a good scrap of CRS
will do this. "approximately the same pressure as I will use to hold the
chuck of plastic" will not.
In addition, HAD YOU EVER ACTUALLY DONE THIS you would
have noticed the thin plastic stock pulling out of the vise if drilling
thru it (as drill grabs the exit "burr") and bending down into the gap
in the vise for most other machining operations.
>I then mill a .030 deep step with a 1/2? 3 flute carbide end
>mill on both jaws. Next I insert a dovetail cutter and mill a dovetail in both
>the fixed and moveable jaw. I then come back and cut off the burr that the
>dovetail cutter leaves making sure to push the burr away from the edge of the
>dovetail. Finally I use the end mill to create “teeth” in the dovetail so that
>the plastic part can’t slide. The whole process can be done in less than ten
>minutes and results in a cheap way to hold and mill plastic parts.
And you have no idea where the edge is located in that "V".
reidm...@msn.com
Yup, there you have it!!
Good response there Jonnie,
If you have to do that routine, say 30 times a year, and you toss the
jaws, as you say, AND, it only takes you 10 minutes MAX.
Then 30 X 10 = 300 minutes / 60 = 5 hours X 75.00 P/Hr = $375.00
Not counting cost of jaw blanks
I can buy several sets of jaw blanks from US Shop Tools and make the
dovetail once for that kind of money.
It probably doesnt take 10 mins. more like 30 mins, unless as said
earlier, all the tools just happen to be in holders, in the turret or
carosel and the alum jaws just happen to be in the vise, and the part
is the same size as the last one you made, and the tools in the turret
were'nt used on 304 or 17-4 or O-1, in other words damaged or worn, in
the REAL world 10 mins goes by real quick.
Have a nice Saturday, I gotta go make real parts that go real fast!
"D"
Cliff
wrote:
>Wow, to say that I outdid myself on the first tip would be an
>understatement.
Not really.
You've posted a LOT of stupid clueless BS.
And equally poor bad advice (if not worse).
LOST YER magical "3 ring binders", eh? LOL ...
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>Can you believe how clever (and simple) it is?
"The Big Book of Triangles"
"Triangles for Dummies"
--
Cliff
jon_banquer
brew...@aol.com
Jon,
It's not plagiarism if you credit the original source!
What you posted is just a variation of something you learned else
ware.
http://tinyurl.com/6kmdxl (sept. 30, 1999)
http://tinyurl.com/57xbxr (oct. 4, 1999)
http://www.technigrip.com/howitworks/step7.html
"Original thought is overrated. " - Jon Banquer - May 12, 2007
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." - Jon
Banquer - May 12, 2007
Tom
John R. Carroll
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 07:59:11 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer
> <jon_b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> First Machining Tip Added To The Jon Banquer Blog.
>>
>> Jon Banquer
>> San Diego, CA
>> http://jonbanquer.blogspot.com/
>
>
> Jon,
>
> It's not plagiarism if you credit the original source!
But it is if you don't.
Are you surprised Tom?
>
> What you posted is just a variation of something you learned else
> ware.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6kmdxl (sept. 30, 1999)
>
> http://tinyurl.com/57xbxr (oct. 4, 1999)
>
> http://www.technigrip.com/howitworks/step7.html
>
> "Original thought is overrated. " - Jon Banquer - May 12, 2007
>
> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." - Jon
> Banquer - May 12, 2007
>
> Tom
--
John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
over a barrel
"John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote in message
news:Dn9ek.17594$Ri.1...@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com...
I normally dont get involved in these things anymore and mean no offence to
Jon but on reading his blog it sounds to me like a fairly good method
provided the objective is that of reliably launching plastic plastic
workpieces out of the machine vise.
Jon suggest rethink and perhaps remove that particular tip of gripping only
upon a .030 deep portion of work and generating shear with the dove ( rather
than pure compressive forces )--rather poor and unreliable workholding
practice, especially where the soft or highly malleable materials are
concerned....hopefully no one will actually try this and so end up causing
themselves or others to suffer personal injury or property damage.
--
jon_banquer
wrote:
> "John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote in messagenews:Dn9ek.17594$Ri.1...@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com...
>
>
>
> > brewe...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 07:59:11 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer
> > > <jon_banq...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >> First Machining Tip Added To The Jon Banquer Blog.
>
> > >> Jon Banquer
> > >> San Diego, CA
> > >>http://jonbanquer.blogspot.com/
>
> > > Jon,
>
> > > It's not plagiarism if you credit the original source!
>
> > But it is if you don't.
> > Are you surprised Tom?
>
> > > What you posted is just a variation of something you learned else
> > > ware.
>
> > >http://tinyurl.com/6kmdxl(sept. 30, 1999)
>
>
> > >http://www.technigrip.com/howitworks/step7.html
>
> > > "Original thought is overrated. " - Jon Banquer - May 12, 2007
>
> > > "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." - Jon
> > > Banquer - May 12, 2007
>
> I normally dont get involved in these things anymore and mean no offence to
> Jon but on reading his blog it sounds to me like a fairly good method
> provided the objective is that of reliably launching plastic plastic
> workpieces out of the machine vise.
>
> Jon suggest rethink and perhaps remove that particular tip of gripping only
> upon a .030 deep portion of work and generating shear with the dove ( rather
> than pure compressive forces )--rather poor and unreliable workholding
> practice, especially where the soft or highly malleable materials are
> concerned....hopefully no one will actually try this and so end up causing
> themselves or others to suffer personal injury or property damage.
>
> --
Do it all the time with great success, Sam. The teeth I describe that
I mill in the dovetail penetrate the plastic and hold it so it doesn't
move.
brew...@aol.com
<jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 07:59:11 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer
>> <jon_b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> First Machining Tip Added To The Jon Banquer Blog.
>>>
>>> Jon Banquer
>>> San Diego, CA
>>> http://jonbanquer.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>> Jon,
>>
>> It's not plagiarism if you credit the original source!
>
>But it is if you don't.
>Are you surprised Tom?
Yes Jon did surprise me a little by posting something easy to prove he
plagiarized.
If Jon posted crib notes or parroted solving triangles without
crediting the source that's one thing. However to represent easy to
prove prior art as "his" first machining tip, that did surprise me a
little.
Every time I think Jon Banquer can't be that stupid he proves me
wrong.
Tom
jon_banquer
brew...@aol.com
<jon_b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>[
>>I frequently machine plastic parts and don’t wish to waste time
>>machining two sides parallel so I can hold the material so the part
>>won’t move while it’s being cut.
>>]- Jon Banquer -
>Do it all the time with great success, Sam. The teeth I describe that
>I mill in the dovetail penetrate the plastic and hold it so it doesn't
>move.
>
>Jon Banquer
How does this marring a blank save you time because you "don't want to
machine two sides parallel" as you claim in your OP?
Don't you now have to machine off (clean up) where your jaws
penetrated the plastic blank you are machining?
Tom
jon_banquer
John R. Carroll
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:32:02 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
> <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote:
>
>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 07:59:11 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer
>>> <jon_b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> First Machining Tip Added To The Jon Banquer Blog.
>>>>
>>>> Jon Banquer
>>>> San Diego, CA
>>>> http://jonbanquer.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> Jon,
>>>
>>> It's not plagiarism if you credit the original source!
>>
>> But it is if you don't.
>> Are you surprised Tom?
>
> Yes Jon did surprise me a little by posting something easy to prove he
> plagiarized.
Well Tom, you obviously forgot to factor in Jon's insanity.
>
> If Jon posted crib notes or parroted solving triangles without
> crediting the source that's one thing. However to represent easy to
> prove prior art as "his" first machining tip, that did surprise me a
> little.
>
> Every time I think Jon Banquer can't be that stupid he proves me
> wrong.
Uh Oh.
I'll bet Jon will now add this to his idiotic "Ignorant" response, not being
able to understand the difference.
larry...@yahoo.com
John R. Carroll
larry...@yahoo.com
Cliff
wrote:
>Why did you stop just for that one post?
>
>Inquiring minds (tinim) would love to know.
Be a good boy & help poor clueless jb out
with the basics of MasterCAM & CAD. ANY CAD.
Then explain to him what CAD/CAM is.
Use little words for all of this.
Thanks,
--
Cliff
Cliff
<precision...@COLDmail.com> wrote:
>Jon but on reading his blog it sounds to me like a fairly good method
>provided the objective is that of reliably launching plastic plastic
>workpieces out of the machine vise.
>
>Jon suggest rethink and perhaps remove that particular tip of gripping only
>upon a .030 deep portion of work and generating shear with the dove ( rather
>than pure compressive forces )--rather poor and unreliable workholding
>practice, especially where the soft or highly malleable materials are
>concerned....hopefully no one will actually try this and so end up causing
>themselves or others to suffer personal injury or property damage.
Exactly. Clearly he's never actually done as he claimed & it's
all clueless stolen BS *again*.
He has NO IDEA at all what it was about. Just buzzwords to
steal (again), get confused & garbled about in his little
"rewrite". (I had to read the BS twice.)
--
Cliff
larry...@yahoo.com
Cliff
wrote:
>> Jon but on reading his blog it sounds to me like a fairly good method
>> provided the objective is that of reliably launching plastic plastic
>> workpieces out of the machine vise.
>>
>> Jon suggest rethink and perhaps remove that particular tip of gripping only
>> upon a .030 deep portion of work and generating shear with the dove ( rather
>> than pure compressive forces )--rather poor and unreliable workholding
>> practice, especially where the soft or highly malleable materials are
>> concerned....hopefully no one will actually try this and so end up causing
>> themselves or others to suffer personal injury or property damage.
>>
>> --
>
>
>Do it all the time with great success, Sam. The teeth I describe that
>I mill in the dovetail penetrate the plastic and hold it so it doesn't
>move.
Not a single clue .... or a word of truth.
And NOW he's "milling" "teeth" (plural) in a "dovetail".
Not to mention marring the part with all that "penetrating".
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
In reply to:
[
Tom
]
Nobody expected any clues, right?
--
Cliff
Cliff
>Every time I think Jon Banquer can't be that stupid he proves me
>wrong.
He's hard to underrate. Some SCAMS are like that.
It's too stupid to be false, right?
--
Cliff
jon_banquer
barn_...@excite.com
> First Machining Tip Added To The Jon Banquer Blog.
>
> Jon Banquer
> San Diego, CA
Fer christs sakes jonnie. How about puttin up a machining tip that
someone beyond a 1st year machinist hasn't used. Where'd you find
this one? At the local vocational school? I've been doin crap like
that since the early 70's. Of course not in the stupid way you
described but lets just say....similar operations and leave it at
that. What's your next tip....how to drill a hole? How about tellin
us how to cut a keyway?
Damn dude.....your inexperience is showin. Do yourself a favor and
burn those "3 Ring Binders" before you embarrass yourself further. I
knew this was gonna be comical but I never expected this type of
hilarity. Pleeeeeeaaaase keep postin your amateur tips. I can use
the laugh.
Barn
jon_banquer
Jon Banquer
San Diego, CA
http://jonbanquer.blogspot.com/
barn_...@excite.com
> First WORTHLESS Machining Tip Added To The Jon Banquer Blog.
>
> Joke Banquer
> San Diego, CA
FYP.....You're welcome
brew...@aol.com
vinny
"jon_banquer" <jon_b...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8ebb42e6-f7fa-4a3f...@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Cool.....is this a tips thread? I frigen love tips and tricks threads!!! I
hope this goes on forever!!!!!
I got one.
If your machining a large semi flat surface in any materials...say like the
bottom of a tupperwear bowl, or the faceplace from a printer, etc...
somthing semi flat, something semi large.
When you do your ball mill work, put it on an angle, say 5 degrees. maybe
set it on a magnetic sine plate? Whatever. Just get it tipped accurately.
Use your noggin.
Get it tipped on a slight angle. In the cam system tip the model your
cutting, or tip the path you made on the same angle. use a sharp corners for
the XYZ references.
The stuff will look like it was polished from cutting on the non center
part of the ball mills, and your tools wont wear.
It's super easy if you have some kind of sine plate and a cam system. If
you lack either of the 2 ....nevermind.
Of course of you have 5 axis nevermind you spoiled #*(&^#^&@%@!! lol
hmmmm, brings up a question?
When using 5 axis, would you tip it on one angle...rough...slightly tip it
more...finish pass?
Or do people buy 5 axis stuff and cut it in the top plane.
(sarcasm added)
jon_banquer
Kadaitcha Man
that with thy breath hast killed, ye bawled:
> Like I am, JB is a Mastercam user and both of us know the basics.
Wow! Is that anything like being a Master of LLAP-Goch?
--
alt.usenet.kooks
"We are arrant knaves all, believe none of us."
Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 1 [129]
Hammer of Thor: February 2007. Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook,
Line & Sinker: September 2005, April 2006, January 2007.
Official Member: Cabal Obsidian Order COOSN-124-07-06660
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Member of:
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Cog in the AUK Hate Machine List
Find me on Google Maps: 24°39'47.13"S, 134°4'20.18"E
Join me for dinner. I'm cooking parched aborted feotus and cabbage
vinegar in trashed hobo's nose hairs and vole puddings conserve in
snafued gold fish gizzard accompanied by creepy foot on top of tainted
water hog gumboil, served in a gurgling pot chock full of bloody squash,
vapid specks of lung, liver and anchovy, snot, a side of olives and a
bowl of cockroach syrup.
Cliff
Banquerbabble:
>>I then mill a .030 deep step with a 1/2? 3 flute carbide end
>>mill on both jaws. Next I insert a dovetail cutter and mill a dovetail in both
>>the fixed and moveable jaw.
Thus cutting off your ".030 deep step" for locating in Z it
seems.
GREAT IDEA!!!
>>I then come back and cut off the burr that the
>>dovetail cutter leaves making sure to push the burr away from the edge of the
>>dovetail. Finally I use the end mill to create “teeth” in the dovetail so that
>>the plastic part can’t slide.
Lots of good MDI edits involved?
>>The whole process can be done in less than ten
>>minutes and results in a cheap way to hold and mill plastic parts.
>
> And you have no idea where the edge is located in that "V".
--
Cliff
jon_banquer
>
> using, or even seeing the software being used. And you're calling JB
> clueless, Mr-Can't-Write-Three-Lines-of-Lathe-Code-without-Making-Five-
> Mistakes?
> Care to post more "stupid and clueless bullshit" of your own for us (tinu)
> now, eh?
>
> --
> Black Dragon
>
> Hear about...
> the tight end who got two years for possession and came out a
> wide receiver?
I've only used Mastecam X for a little over a year. BD has years more
experience than I do and I'm sure is far better with Mastercam than I
am. This statement doesn't hold true for people like Joe788 or Darrell
Reid who have used Mastercam for years and are often clueless and
wrong in regards to Mastercam. It only takes a short while for me to
blow by these types of idiots but it takes many years to be on equal
footing with a knowledgeable and advanced Mastercam users like BD.
BD can correct me if I have the following wrong:
Both of us seem to agree that Mastercam X2 has a lot of problems with
the basics never getting fixed and that have been broken for years in
Mastercam X. Basics like, Change At Point, a tool library interface
that is very modal and would be better if it used a database or
spreadsheet interface so you could make changes to multiple tools
rather than one tool at a time, stability problems with the Machining
Operations Manager, a user interface that is so bad that a dual
monitor setup is mandatory. Even when you have dual monitors you can’t
do something as basic as moving the View Manager dialog box to the
second monitor and leave it open, etc.
Both BD and I agree that Cliff Huprich has never used Mastercam X and
has no idea what he's talking about. The same is true with SolidWorks.
Most of the CADCAM information Cliff Huprich posts is wrong and
outdated and the rest are lies.
IMO, anyone believing anything Cliff Huprich posts about machining
(Cliff Huprich has very little experience doing actual machining),
Mastercam X or SolidWorks deserves the wrong / inaccurate information
they get from the liar.
Cliff
wrote:
>> Like I am, JB is a Mastercam user and both of us know the basics.
reidm...@msn.com
> >experience than I do and I'm sure is far better with Mastercam than I
> >am. This statement doesn't hold true for people like Joe788 or Darrell
> >Reid who have used Mastercam for years and are often clueless and
> >wrong in regards to Mastercam. It only takes a short while for me to
> >blow by these types of idiots but it takes many years to be on equal
> >footing with a knowledgeable and advanced Mastercam users like BD.
And you have answered how many of my questions to know this?
The last time I saw ANY question on here about mastercam, was from
Clay, and YOU were nowhere to be found!
Show your work asshole, if your going to bring my name up, you better
have someting to back up your bullshit!
I design, program and build setups in Mastercam every day, post to my
machines without any manual editing and have no drilled holes or
milled slots in my tables or vises.
I doubt you can make the same claim, shit your still trying to figger
out how to use work offsets.
I will ask one more time:
How many machines do you own?
How many LEGAL seats of CAD-CAM software do you own?
When are you going to put up some examples of work you have done?
When are you going to address any of the questions anybody has asked
on here without just reposting the same paragraph over and over?
And btw, your machining tip: I learned that back in 1977, my 1st year
in machining.
"D"
jon_banquer
> Unlike JB and I, you claim to know things about Mastercam without ever
> using, or even seeing the software being used. And you're calling JB
> clueless, Mr-Can't-Write-Three-Lines-of-Lathe-Code-without-Making-Five-
> Mistakes?
> Care to post more "stupid and clueless bullshit" of your own for us (tinu)
> now, eh?
> --
> Black Dragon
> Hear about...
> the tight end who got two years for possession and came out a
> wide receiver?
I've only used Mastecam X for a little over a year. BD has years more
experience than I do and I'm sure is far better with Mastercam than I
am. This statement doesn't hold true for people like Joe788 or Darrell
Reid who have used Mastercam for years and are often clueless and
wrong in regards to Mastercam. It only takes a short while for me to
blow by these types of idiots but it takes many years to be on equal
footing with a knowledgeable and advanced Mastercam users like BD.
BD can correct me if I have the following wrong:
Joe788
Jon, YOU are the one that couldn't select a chain, and called it a
"stupid waste of time."
YOU are the one that said levels are a waste of time, and that
assemblies and configurations are SO MUCH better (even though they
aren't even remotely used for the same function).
_____________________________________
"Suggest you fire up Mastercam X2 on your notebook and import a
SolidWorks model into Mastercam X2 and start chaining the solid for
toolpath. It should not take you very long to see how Mastercam X2
hasto be told what to chain. SolidWorks / HSMWorks never has to be
told what to chain! If you want a face you pick it. If you want an
edge you pick it. If you want a curve you pick it. In Mastercam X2 you
must tell Mastercam X2 what you want. Totally ridiculous and a waste
of time." - Jon Banquer
_____________________________________
My response to your completely uninformed, beginner level complaint:
"Just for the heck of it, I fired up X2, opened a Solidworks .sldprt
file, and then made a toolpath around the contour of the solid.
It took one click to select the chain. I did not have to tell it if I
wanted to pick an edge or a face. I just moved the mouse over the
edge, and it highlighted the edge. I clicked once, and it selected the
entire chain.
Maybe you should try this on YOUR seat of Mastercam next time before
you make an ass out of yourself again." - Joe788
____________________________________
Here's another shining example of you having no idea what you're
doing:
"Assemblies are a much smarter approach. I fail to see why you need
Levels or Layers if you have a proper assembly mode. Perhaps this
afternoon I'll do a comparison of dumb fucking Levels / Layers to
Assemblies." -Jon Banquer
So 6 months ago you thought assemblies are much better than levels,
(because you are COMPLETELY clueless) even though you refused to
explain how they could even be considered remotely in the same
universe of functionality. And of course now, you're at CNCZone and
all over your blog, crying about wanting to learn how to better
utilize the power of levels! Do you EVER get tired of completely
contradicting yourself?
Oh well, at least you're finally getting some training. If only you'd
done it before you spent the last 18 months putting your foot in your
mouth and humiliating yourself.
"I'm presently taking official Mastercam VAR training. I'm very lucky
that I work for a company that can afford it because the training book
that we are useing for official Mastercam VAR training as well as the
very knowledgeable instructor provided information is NOT AVAILABLE if
you don't use official Mastercam VAR training.
A lot of work needs to be done to correct this situation and I feel
for those who can't afford to spend hundreds of dollars per day to get
the proper training as I was in that situation for many years." - Jon
Banquer (Jim Jarvis, Larry, etc)
jon_banquer
Cliff
wrote:
>Cliff wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:27:36 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon <b...@nomail.invalid>
>> wrote:
>
>>>Why did you stop just for that one post?
>
>>>Inquiring minds (tinim) would love to know.
>
>> Be a good boy & help poor clueless jb out with the basics of MasterCAM
>
>Like I am, JB is a Mastercam user and both of us know the basics.
You may but he clearly does not. He's badly lacking in the basics,
many of which apply to most CAD & CAM & CAD/CAM systems.
Why don't you train him?
>Unlike JB and I, you claim to know things about Mastercam without ever
>using, or even seeing the software being used.
I know what a WCS is, as an example, & he does not. LOL ...
Bet I could find arcs/circles to drill too.
>And you're calling JB
>clueless, Mr-Can't-Write-Three-Lines-of-Lathe-Code-without-Making-Five-
>Mistakes?
If Tom can make negative diameters on a lathe I can choose my
quadrants <VBG>. And if they give two diameters I can at least
start out with one & do the other .. LOL ...
>Care to post more "stupid and clueless bullshit" of your own for us (tinu)
>now, eh?
Why don't you explain why TNR comp will not work properly Tom's way?
Feel free to use *simple* shop math but don't confuse jb with fancy
stuff like triangles.
HTH
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>
>I've only used Mastecam X for a little over a year.
You've been PRETENDING to know MasterCAM for
a DECADE (TEN YEARS) !!!
Example:
[
As far as MasterCAM dedication to outstanding tech support , I have pointed this
out for at least six months on a regular basis. Although I personally don't like
MasterCAM the outstanding job that CNC Software does in this area is probably
the best in the business.
] - Jon Banquer Jul 22 1998
THE TRUTH: You don't even know about chains, chaining or the WCS.
Not only is this not new to MasterCAM, AFAIK it's not new to ANY
system. But YOU are confused by it (and much else).
You ALSO "think" in terms of ONLY 2 1/2 axes, such as might
be seen in about any intro training 5 minute demo. Nothing more.
And NONE of your posts have EVER been about more than *entry
level manual machine operation* (and made any sense).
It's also quite clear that you cannot even begin to follow any of
the real discussions (or trolling <G>). ALL you can do is copy
ads & the posts of others & get confused !!!
You are not a CAD, CAD/CAM or CAM user.
QED
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>
>Both BD and I agree that Cliff Huprich has never used Mastercam X and
>has no idea what he's talking about.
<Snicker>
I was probably writing CAD & other software when you were in diapers.
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>IMO, anyone believing anything Cliff Huprich posts about machining
>(Cliff Huprich has very little experience doing actual machining)
Crank your own handles. PUSH THAT BROOM !!!
You've never been lead machinist or a forman either.
One works their way up, usually.
But programming is more interesting (& pays better).
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>I've only used Mastecam X for a little over a year.
Where you are now I doubt that they even have it.
And we all know how you had to CUT & RUN when asked
in emastercam.com. You could NOT put up.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>Damn dude.....your inexperience is showin. Do yourself a favor and
>burn those "3 Ring Binders" before you embarrass yourself further.
It does not seem that he could find them .... he had to go
find something else entirely .... then get confused about
even what that was about.
So much for that. Same old same old BS.
--
Cliff
Cliff
> When using 5 axis, would you tip it on one angle...rough...slightly tip it
>more...finish pass?
Or chris-cross .. ?
--
Cliff
Kadaitcha Man
pestilent congregation of vapours. What a piece of work art thou!, ye
scribbled:
> Kadaitcha Man wrote:
>
>> Black Dragon, ye puking close contriver of all harms, thou art the slave
>> that with thy breath hast killed, ye bawled:
>
>>> Like I am, JB is a Mastercam user and both of us know the basics.
>
>> Wow! Is that anything like being a Master of LLAP-Goch?
>
> LLAP-Goch - never heard of it, had to look it up... bwahaha! Thanks.
:)
--
alt.usenet.kooks
"We are arrant knaves all, believe none of us."
Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 1 [129]
Hammer of Thor: February 2007. Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook,
Line & Sinker: September 2005, April 2006, January 2007.
Official Member: Cabal Obsidian Order COOSN-124-07-06660
Official Overseer of Kooks & Trolls in 24hoursupport.helpdesk
Member of:
Usenet Ruiner List
Top Assholes on the Net List
Most hated usenetizens of all time List
Cog in the AUK Hate Machine List
Find me on Google Maps: 24°39'47.13"S, 134°4'20.18"E
Join me for dinner. I'm cooking abominable echidna ulcer next to weird
iguana rectum with lemon compote accompanied by half-raw abscess on top
of beastly humpbacked whale intestine and marmoset ligament sauce with
bad-smelling ligament aside ghastly syphilis scabs with scalded mule
giblet with chive preserve, simmered in a steaming casserole heaped with
rare cooked acorn, small whole tuna and whole pork, snot, a side of
quokka rectum carcinoma and a bowl of pap smear scrapings.
Cliff
wrote:
>> Wow! Is that anything like being a Master of LLAP-Goch?
>
>LLAP-Goch - never heard of it, had to look it up... bwahaha! Thanks.
"The team that would eventually win, We Begin Bombing in Five Minutes, .."
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>Cliff wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:10:25 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon <b...@nomail.invalid>
>> wrote:
>
>>>Cliff wrote:
>
>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:27:36 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon <b...@nomail.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>
>>>>>Why did you stop just for that one post?
>
>>>>>Inquiring minds (tinim) would love to know.
>
>>>> Be a good boy & help poor clueless jb out with the basics of MasterCAM
>
>>>Like I am, JB is a Mastercam user and both of us know the basics.
>
>> You may but he clearly does not. He's badly lacking in the basics,
>
>Says someone who never used or even seen Mastercam in use.
I've seen it but prefer real CAD/CAM systems.
>>>Unlike JB and I, you claim to know things about Mastercam without ever
>>>using, or even seeing the software being used.
>
>> I know what a WCS is, as an example, & he does not.
>
>You have yet to explain what the difference between a fixture offset and
>a work coordinate system is in a CNC control. Remember, you said Jon
>didn't, implying you knew, but you failed to demonstrate any knowledge of
>such.
WCS is CAD/CAM & CAM.
Fixture offsets come out of such a just a call to a numbered offset
register (or set of same) in the CNC control. CNC control then applies
the data set by the machine's operator in it's fixture offset registers
(under program control).
Part of why ISO-4343 mentions "in the part coordinate system"
to begin with.
Pretty simple but well beyond jb's conception.
>If you ever do manage to get a grasp on basics like that your criticisms
>may become credible someday.
Did you catch his wanting to link the active WCS to the active view/port
automatically? LOL ... I think you are either pretty gullible or miss most of
his profound stupidity. Or both.
>>>And you're calling JB
>>>clueless, Mr-Can't-Write-Three-Lines-of-Lathe-Code-without-Making-Five-
>>>Mistakes?
>
>> If Tom can make negative diameters on a lathe
>
>Tom never claimed to be able to turn negative diameters on a lathe, that's
>entirely your own fabrication.
He claimed to program using the numbers on the print & then used a negative
diameter in his code example, etc <G>.
>>>Care to post more "stupid and clueless bullshit" of your own for us (tinu)
>>>now, eh?
I note you skipped the TNR offset calculation issues <VBG>.
>Kudos for stepping up to the task.
HTH
--
Cliff
Joe788
> Cliff wrote:
> > Fixture offsets come out of such a just a call to a numbered offset
> > register (or set of same) in the CNC control. CNC control then applies
> > the data set by the machine's operator in it's fixture offset registers
> > (under program control).
> > Part of why ISO-4343 mentions "in the part coordinate system"
> > to begin with.
> > Pretty simple but well beyond jb's conception.
>
> and a fixture offset is. I know JB knows. As does every other
> alt.machines.cnc regular. Except you. Apparently it's far beyond your
> grasp since you haven't yet been able to explain it.
>
> > Did you catch his wanting to link the active WCS to the active view/port
> > automatically? LOL ... I think you are either pretty gullible or miss most of
> > his profound stupidity. Or both.
>
> your pathetic bleating to the contrary. In Mastercam by default, the
> construction planes and tool planes follow the current view
> automatically.
>
> I turn that feature off, I personally find it annoying, but most of the
> people I've worked with like it. Since you, and probably other dolts like
> you (Joe788, Gary Knutson, and the rest of JB's imbecilic fan club) can't
> see how the WCS changing automatically with views *could* be handy, that
> only goes to prove just how bliss ignorance can really be.
>
> > He claimed to program using the numbers on the print & then used a negative
> > diameter in his code example
>
> been YOU.
>
> --
> Black Dragon
>
> May a deranged midget on a pogo stick
> take refuge in your sister's hoop skirt.
Yep, JB's Mastercam expertise put on display for all to see:
"Suggest you fire up Mastercam X2 on your notebook and import a
SolidWorks model into Mastercam X2 and start chaining the solid for
toolpath. It should not take you very long to see how Mastercam X2
hasto be told what to chain. SolidWorks / HSMWorks never has to be
told what to chain! If you want a face you pick it. If you want an
edge you pick it. If you want a curve you pick it. In Mastercam X2 you
must tell Mastercam X2 what you want. Totally ridiculous and a waste
of time." - Jon Banquer "
This one's my favorite though:
"Assemblies are a much smarter approach. I fail to see why you need
Levels or Layers if you have a proper assembly mode. Perhaps this
afternoon I'll do a comparison of dumb fucking Levels / Layers to
Assemblies." -Jon Banquer
Jon has absolutely no idea what he's doing. The fact that you can't
see that, tells me you are similarly clueless, or you simply don't
care. (My guess would be the latter).
John R. Carroll
gk
Black Dragon wrote:
> Cliff wrote:
>
>
> I turn that feature off, I personally find it annoying, but most of the
> people I've worked with like it. Since you, and probably other dolts like
> you (Joe788, Gary Knutson, and the rest of JB's imbecilic fan club) can't
> see how the WCS changing automatically with views *could* be handy, that
> only goes to prove just how bliss ignorance can really be.
>
Coming from Robert Heineger, this doesn't mean a great deal to me.
Roberts main purpose in life seems to be to support his buddy Jonnie.
gk
jon_banquer
Joe788
> [cowardly deletion of newsgroups restored]
>
> Joe788 wrote:
> > Jon has absolutely no idea what he's doing.
>
> substance to alt.machines.cnc.
>
> We all make mistakes and Jon is not an exception. But he's not wrong all
> the time despite the handful of you worthless fuckstains wanting to beat
> him down every chance you get because he hurt your fragile feelings by
> making you all look stupid at one time or another.
>
> --
> Black Dragon
>
> QOTD:
> "I met her [his fiance] over lunch on Thursday. She had a firm
> grip. He's a lucky man."
Only a complete kook (fitting that you keep cross posting this to a
bunch of random kook groups) would consider Jon's history of
contradiction and completely incorrect statements a "mistake".
I'd certainly love to see any example of Jon ever making anybody "look
stupid", unless of course you mean his unbelievably witty misquotes,
followed by "now it's correct."
Conversely, I can think of many times when Jon's humiliated himself,
such as making multiple claims about working with HSMWorks, only to
have the infamous email thrown in his face: "Jon is not affiliated
with HSMWorks ApS in any way and that we cannot control what people
are writing on the web. Anybody can get evaluation licenses of
HSMWorks and test it themselves.I hope this clarifies any doubt." -
HSMWorks Aps
Funny though to see *you* blaming others for contributing "absolutely
nothing of any substance." Hey, at least you're contributing some
comedy! Make any personal threats or calls to anybodies employer
lately?
Cliff
wrote:
>We all make mistakes and Jon is not an exception.
With him it seems to be the rule.
Comes from not knowing what the words mean, not
even being an actual user I think. Ever.
>But he's not wrong all
>the time
I cannot vouch for his actual current driving skills one way
or the other. Can you?
>despite the handful of you worthless fuckstains wanting to beat
>him down every chance you get
That's like every clueless BS post, right?
>because he hurt your fragile feelings by
>making you all look stupid at one time or another.
Since when? He just gets confused, copies stuff,
posts confused BS & ads & lies.
HTH
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>Cliff wrote:
>
>> Fixture offsets come out of such a just a call to a numbered offset
>> register (or set of same) in the CNC control. CNC control then applies
>> the data set by the machine's operator in it's fixture offset registers
>> (under program control).
>> Part of why ISO-4343 mentions "in the part coordinate system"
>> to begin with.
>> Pretty simple but well beyond jb's conception.
>
>You still haven't explained what the difference between a work offset
>and a fixture offset is.
You asked about fixture offsets.
I could explain about the MCS & the WCS too.
The "work offset" is a bit vague. See whatever
docs for the specific program or machine/control
claim. Then ask jb for some fine gibberish.
>I know JB knows. As does every other
>alt.machines.cnc regular. Except you. Apparently it's far beyond your
>grasp since you haven't yet been able to explain it.
Nor am I about to make any silly claims. Try using standard terms
as used in the standards.
>> Did you catch his wanting to link the active WCS to the active view/port
>> automatically? LOL ... I think you are either pretty gullible or miss most of
>> his profound stupidity. Or both.
>
>Nope. I didn't see that post.
See how much you miss?
>But that's not an absurd request despite
>your pathetic bleating to the contrary. In Mastercam by default, the
>construction planes and tool planes follow the current view
>automatically.
I expect you have some confusion.
>I turn that feature off, I personally find it annoying, but most of the
>people I've worked with like it. Since you, and probably other dolts like
>you (Joe788, Gary Knutson, and the rest of JB's imbecilic fan club) can't
>see how the WCS changing automatically with views *could* be handy, that
>only goes to prove just how bliss ignorance can really be.
Great idea. You programmed a hole to drill in the default X-Y plane then
generate it with an isometric view & WCS/MCS active.
You just pulled a banquer.
>> He claimed to program using the numbers on the print & then used a negative
>> diameter in his code example
>
>The only person fucktarded enough to talk about "negative diameters" has
>been YOU.
I can tell a -X in diameter programming mode from a +X <VBG>.
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>Joe788 wrote:
>
>> I'd certainly love to see any example of Jon ever making anybody "look
>> stupid"
>
>Check all your own replies to his posts. Include the ones you copy and
>paste from the various web boards you follow him around to hump his legs
>on.
Clearly BD misses a lot of clueless stupidity & idiocy.
Thus he's in no position to defend the great self-proclaimed
"god of "cadcam"".
--
Cliff
Cliff
<jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote:
>Black Dragon wrote:
>
>You have got to be kidding me.
He's trying for an AUK award perhaps.
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>[cowardly deletion of newsgroups restored]
>
>Joe788 wrote:
>
>> Jon has absolutely no idea what he's doing.
>
>Utter nonsense from someone who contributes absolutely nothing of any
>substance to alt.machines.cnc.
Actually, Joe has posted a lot more good stuff than you ever have
(in the last 8 years anyway), BD.
You generally just whine like jb IIRC .... and I still recall well
your posts to a newbie mold person.
Break the bad habits.
HTH
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>You have yet to explain what the difference between a fixture offset and
>a work coordinate system is in a CNC control.
The "work offset" term is often misused for "tool length offsets"
in lathe applications these days.
There would be two of them per tool position per turret (if
the lathe has at least one turret else just per tool); one axial
& one radial, both called as a set.
Then there are people that use the term for other things. Are
you one of those?
Have any actual "machining tips" for jb to steal?
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>You have yet to explain what the difference between a fixture offset and
>a work coordinate system is in a CNC control.
The "work offset" term is often misused for "tool length offsets"
in lathe applications these days.
There would be two of them per tool position per turret (if
the lathe has at least one turret else just per tool); one axial
& one radial, both called as a set.
Some also use the term to adjust/shift only the "position" in Z
for all tools on a lathe.
Joe788
> Cliff wrote:
> > On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:30:54 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon <b...@nomail.invalid>
> > wrote:
> >>Cliff wrote:
> >>> Fixture offsets come out of such a just a call to a numbered offset
> >>> register (or set of same) in the CNC control. CNC control then applies
> >>> the data set by the machine's operator in it's fixture offset registers
> >>> (under program control).
> >>> Part of why ISO-4343 mentions "in the part coordinate system"
> >>> to begin with.
> >>> Pretty simple but well beyond jb's conception.
> >>You still haven't explained what the difference between a work offset
> >>and a fixture offset is.
> > You asked about fixture offsets.
> > I could explain about the MCS & the WCS too.
> > The "work offset" is a bit vague. See whatever
> > docs for the specific program or machine/control
> > claim. Then ask jb for some fine gibberish.
>
> actually has real hands on experience setting up a cnc machine or
> directly supervises those doing the setups knows the difference between
> fixture and work offsets. Obviously you, the self proclaimed guru
> of all things cnc and cad/cam, are excluded.
>
> >>I know JB knows. As does every other
> >>alt.machines.cnc regular. Except you. Apparently it's far beyond your
> >>grasp since you haven't yet been able to explain it.
> > Nor am I about to make any silly claims. Try using standard terms
> > as used in the standards.
>
>
> >>> Did you catch his wanting to link the active WCS to the active view/port
> >>> automatically? LOL ... I think you are either pretty gullible or miss most of
> >>> his profound stupidity. Or both.
> >>Nope. I didn't see that post.
> > See how much you miss?
>
> replies to that single post (which you regularly xpost to irrelevant
> newsgroups where it has clearly been stated such xposts are unwanted by
> the core subscribers of the groups) by fuckwits like you, and a bunch of
> replies to your posts from the likes of useless fucks like Joe788 and GK
> it's perfectly obvious to anyone with two halves of a brain cell or more
> to rub together and has read the group for more than two days the thread
> contains absolutely nothing of value. None. Nada. Zippo.
>
> It's entirely a time management thing, man. As in I'm not interested in
> wasting it reading a bunch of drivel posted by wankstains like you and
> your minions.
>
> Also, only losers and fools like you sit and read every single post made
> to a newsgroup. You've often admitted to being months behind reading and
> replying to legitimate posts while xposting your political kook froth all
> over Usenet several times a day on a daily basis.
>
> >>But that's not an absurd request despite
> >>your pathetic bleating to the contrary. In Mastercam by default, the
> >>construction planes and tool planes follow the current view
> >>automatically.
> > I expect you have some confusion.
>
> a half which makes me more than qualified to comment on its usage.
>
> >>I turn that feature off, I personally find it annoying, but most of the
> >>people I've worked with like it. Since you, and probably other dolts like
> >>you (Joe788, Gary Knutson, and the rest of JB's imbecilic fan club) can't
> >>see how the WCS changing automatically with views *could* be handy, that
> >>only goes to prove just how bliss ignorance can really be.
> > Great idea. You programmed a hole to drill in the default X-Y plane then
> > generate it with an isometric view & WCS/MCS active.
>
> to your lack of experience with it.
>
> But you've never let lack of knowledge about something deter you from
> posting stupid shit.
>
> Don't let me get in the way though, feel free to continue.
>
> --
> Black Dragon
>
> confusion, n:
> Father's Day in San Francisco.
Please provide one or two examples of a post of Cliff's that I've
replied to.
Joe788
> Joe788 wrote:
> > I'd certainly love to see any example of Jon ever making anybody "look
> > stupid"
>
> paste from the various web boards you follow him around to hump his legs
> even though you know he doesn't read them. THAT makes the lot of you
> self spanking fucking idiots.
>
That's what I figured you'd say. Not one example. Jon posts something
completely false and incorrect as a fact, then it's corrected by
somebody who actually knows what they're doing, but yet somehow JB's
little cheerleader sees it the other way.
You're either lying to yourself when you say Jon doesn't read the
replies to his posts, or you really are completely clueless.
> > Make any personal threats or calls to anybodies employer lately?
>
> I've never made any threats or called anybodies employer. Ever. However,
> threats were made to me and it was my employer who was called, both by
> the same person and long before drain damaged cunts like you showed up.
>
> --
> Black Dragon
>
What ever you say, JB Jr.
[" I do believe an email to Alan Davidson, the Author of Body
Brilliance, highlighting Kristofer Hogg's true character as he himself
has been exposing on Usenet for years is most definitely in order."] -
Black Dragon
Joe788
> Cliff wrote:
> your juvenile and mostly clueless off topic political kook froth all over
> Usenet from there for many *years* and you're suggesting that *I* break
> bad habits? Were you born that fucking stupid or did your mama make you
> take lessons later in life?
>
> --
> Black Dragon
>
> Give a man a free hand and he'll run it all over you.
> -- Mae West
How many posts in this topic have you cross posted?
"Hypocrisy, hy·poc·ri·sy - (or the state of being a hypocrite) is the
act of preaching a certain belief or way of life, but not, in fact,
holding these same virtues oneself. For example, a teacher telling
students they should not plagiarize, while secretly being a plagiarist
himself. Hypocrisy is frequently invoked as an accusation in many
contexts."
John R. Carroll
> Cliff wrote:
>
> your pathetic bleating to the contrary. In Mastercam by default, the
> construction planes and tool planes follow the current view
> automatically.
>
> the people I've worked with like it.
I turn it off as well and for the same reason. I don't like that sort of
stuff happening on it's own.
Probably an old guy thing. Were the guys that liked the follow feature
younger than 30?
Anyone that young wouldn't remember the years when this sort of thing worked
poorly when it worked at all.
I'm surprised you are having such trouble with arrays. I do that all the
time with five axis vanes and haven't had any difficulty. I'm also not a
regular user, however, so I might have the same problem if I were.
jon_banquer
Cliff
>On Jul 18, 11:38 pm, Black Dragon <b...@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>> Joe788 wrote:
>> > I'd certainly love to see any example of Jon ever making anybody "look
>> > stupid"
>>
>> Check all your own replies to his posts. Include the ones you copy and
>> paste from the various web boards you follow him around to hump his legs
>> on. You bumbling idiots post reply after reply after reply to his posts
>> even though you know he doesn't read them. THAT makes the lot of you
>> self spanking fucking idiots.
>>
>
>That's what I figured you'd say. Not one example. Jon posts something
>completely false and incorrect as a fact, then it's corrected by
>somebody who actually knows what they're doing, but yet somehow JB's
>little cheerleader sees it the other way.
>
>You're either lying to yourself when you say Jon doesn't read the
>replies to his posts, or you really are completely clueless.
Part of the problem is that, at first, jb can sound like he has
a clue. But it's just all copied stuff & buzzwords.
It shows when he tries to use "his own words" & the buzzwords
end up in the wrong context, just for starters.
So BD gets fooled (giving him the credit).
Plus, theres all the other stuff .... like idiot questions on BBS systems
that trace back to one of his many names that about any actual
user would never have had to ask, etc. Not to forget the classic rants ...
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>Cliff wrote:
>
>> I'm trying for an AUK award perhaps.
>
>Wackjobs like you deserve one.
Then there are those that alter & forge posts &
quotes ....
--
Cliff
jon_banquer
> fuck.
> --
> Black Dragon
You're asking him to do something he's clearly not capable of doing.