Congress: Hearings on Mold and Die Ind.
Jim D
maker/designers
AMBA
We have been asked by the International Trade Commission to supply them
with information on the U.S. moldmaking industry as they begin their
investigation into the effects of offshore competition, unfair trade
practices of other countries and to determine what the U.S. government
might do to assist U.S. moldmakers. This survey seeks information about
your business conditions past and present, and your outlook for the
future; competitive issues, strategic planning, and the implementation
of technology at your facility. Please download this survey and fax it
back to the AMBA by April 25.
Please go here and fill out the survey.
http://www.amba.org/
Jim D
John Kreutzberger
not, is the AMBA cooperating with the folks conducting the DME survey?
If they are different ones, I'd like to hear somebody make a case for why we
should have to fill out both of them.
jk
Jim D <"molds(NOSPAM)"@starband.net> wrote in message
news:3CB98331...@starband.net...
wgates666
so what, are we going to impose MORE tariffs on imports now? the steel
tariffs are bad enough...
--john
Pete J. Kavelish
Countries of Earth). Then there would be no need to have tariffs. Maybe
then we can start competing against the aliens!
"wgates666" <jjablonski...@deluxestitcher.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1724d4341...@news.speakeasy.org...
Devlin
Ummmm, yeah, if they want to address unfair trade practices they
should start by looking in their own back yard and at the U.S.'s own
foreign policy.
kwbosch...@earthlink.net
>What we need to do is take over the world and make it all UCE (United
>Countries of Earth). Then there would be no need to have tariffs. Maybe
>then we can start competing against the aliens!
My parents always warned me about this "One World Government". Here it comes!
Phil Evans
having a hard time, start in your own backyard.
A tariff of 29% has been put on Canadian lumber because the lobbyists stated
that stumping costs were being government subsidised, this tariff has not
been levied against raw logs that can be processed in the States, creating
or keeping jobs, even though this so called stumping rate applies to the
logs as well.
Stop whining!!!!
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
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Sporkman
>
> What we need to do is take over the world and make it all UCE (United
> Countries of Earth). Then there would be no need to have tariffs. Maybe
> then we can start competing against the aliens!
I'm for that. Let's have a "United Federation" and build starships.
John Coulston
John
BANKRUPTING THE UNITED STATES
June 17, 2001
Tool shops in the U.S. are going down due to the Chinese connection. What
purchasing agents, buyers, project engineers, and tool engineers In the U.S.
don't realize is that the Chinese almost never build just their tools. They
don't realize that the Chinese are making duplicate, triplicate, and
quadruplicate, etc. tools. With these duplicate tools, the Chinese are
stealing our engineering and producing factories to Undersell the very
companies that initially contracted with the Chinese to produce the first
set of tools.
Presently, there are approximately 350 toolmakers laid off in the
Erie-Meadville, PA area. Chances are, these layoffs are permanent.
Meadville is the capital of tool and die making In the U.S. There are more
toolmakers, per capita, in Meadville than anywhere else. Chicago has the
most toolmakers in the country and Chicago is at less than half-capacity.
Liquidation auctions at tool And die companies are becoming weekly events
with machine tools selling for pennies on the dollar. Price is attracting
the U.S. buyers of tooling. You can't start production without tooling. If
you can get your tooling at 4 to.5 cents on the dollar, it's very hard to
pass up. So, how can the Chinese do this? Well, its communism at it's best
and we have basically no tariffs in place to even up the playing field.
This is how I understand the Chinese connection to work. A Chinese
businessman, who is favored by the Chinese government, writes a business
plan. With the approval of the business plan, the Chinese businessman
receives extremely low interest loans, or, in most cases, grants. The
property for this new business is donated through "eminent domain" and a
brand new facility with brand new state of the art equipment is constructed.
The labor required to run the new facility is paid anywhere from $2.50 a day
to $2.50 a week, or in some cases simply paid in food.
The Chinese outnumber the rest of the free world 4 to l. The cheap Labor
supply is virtually inexhaustible. A recent tour of these new high tech
Chinese facilities revealed lines of Chinese people waiting to get jobs to
the degree that the lines had formed into tent villages. To make matters
even more unfair, the Chinese government owns all of the raw material
manufacturing facilities. They own the steel mills, the raw plastic
manufacturing facilities, paper mills, the oil refineries, the electricity
producing facilities, etc. So, the Chinese officials give their businessmen
the raw materials for pennies on the dollar in exchange for monetary
kickbacks.
For example, recently a package of four molds received the low bid in The
U.S. for approximately $50,000. The job went to the Chinese for $9,000. The
steel required to build the tools in the U.S. cost almost $14,000 before any
other work was done to the steel to produce the molds. It's not just tough
to compete, its completely impossible!!!
WE NEED TARIFFS AND WE NEED THEM NOW!!!!!!!
Consider this scenario: It's a year down the road and the majority of the
larger tool shops have gone bankrupt. Some of the smarter ones have down
sized to 15 man or smaller shops. The purchasing departments in the U.S.
are forced to go with the Chinese, due to the capacity problems, who in
turn, steal the engineering. With the stolen engineering, they produce new
high tech factories to undersell the U.S. firms. Now U.S. manufacturing
starts to head for bankruptcy. U.S. manufacturing is the backbone of the
U.S. economy. Now what? It's too late!
Doubt this scenario? It's already happening!!!!
Talk to Caterpillar, they hit on the Chinese connection two years ago. Their
D-9 diesel motor was tolled up and built In China. When Caterpillar buyers
went over to check on progress they saw several sets of duplicate tools.
Now, two years later, the Chinese version of the D-9 diesel sells for about
20 cents on the dollar. I understand Hoover is also in the midst of
realizing the stolen engineering scenario. Truck-Lite is using the Chinese.
In talking with the president of Truck-Lite, he informed me that his
customers are demanding the lowest costs, which is forcing him into the
Chinese connection for tooling. Many hundreds of
U.S. manufacturers are forced into this boat whether they agree
with it or not.
Fisher-Price started this mess; now-the plant near Buffalo is history.
Almost all toys are made in China. Look at the toys made In China by Chinese
tools -they're good. Toys are some of the most complex molds to make. If
they can make toys, they can make anything. It's not like the old days, 7-8
years ago, when Chinese quality simply wasn't there. It's here and the
sleeping giant has awakened!!! The Chinese aren't stupid, wait until
they've cornered the market on the toolmakers and their prices will go up.
That should put the U.S. manufacturers on there knees all the sooner.
The speed at which all of this is taking place is extreme. This Chinese
solution is affecting all aspects of manufacturing, from lumber, furniture,
paper, power tools, home appliances, clothing, computers, electronics,
plumbing, hardwire, building supplies, electrical, etc. This isn't another
cheap labor scene like Mexico. Remember, this Is COMMUNIST CHINA. They
outnumber the rest of the world 4 to 1!!! Consider 100,000 Chinese starting
10,000 manufacturing facilities all at the same time. I should think you
haven't even scratched the surface. Keep in mind that the raw materials are
provided at 2 - 3 cents on the dollar and the virtually inexhaustible labor
supply is paid, at best, 1/10 of U.S. wages. Think about the extraordinary
amounts of money that is changing hands between the Chinese officials and
businessmen and the upper echelon of the free world.
We need to have tariffs. Dropping the interest rate another half Percent
isn't going to cut it. Loosening up emissions is going backwards.
Establishing fair trade is one thing. Allowing communist China, the largest
populations on the face of the planet, to steal our engineering, wallow in
human rights violations, add in the dumping of raw material and labor, and
potentially bankrupt the United States of America Is INSANE! I would hope
that our government would have the common sense to put a stop to this
ridiculous practice of that amounts to totally free unregulated trade with
the MOST DANGEROUS communist country in the world.
Good economists have used tool shops for years to predict the economy,
because the backbone of the economy is manufacturing. They know that
manufacturing cannot start without tooling. When tool shops pick up,
manufacturing won't be far behind. They also know that the tool shops are
the first to feel the economy slow down. In this case, without tariffs,
tool shops counting on orders from manufacturers in bed with the Chinese may
have six months to two years. Banks will be next and so on.
I am not religious, but I understand that even the Bible talks of this. To
the effect that the yellow race will dominate the earth and the eagle will
fade away. We should be smart enough to keep this from happening WE ARE
SMART ENOUGH - I hope.
Scott R. Sando
Vice-President
Elite Mold & Design
****Since the date of this article, January l, 2001, 77 of the approximate
180 tool shops In the Chicago area have gone bankrupt. Representative Phil
English, who has been to China, has substantiated the contents of this
letter.
****China is not a member of the World Trade Federation and thus does not
feel the need to play by the rules. China imports to us with a 3% tariff.
We import to China with a 12% tariff.
****The Chinese have purchased nine submarines from the Russians. Three of
these subs have been delivered, which is completely stealth under 25 knots.
****Six more tool shops in the Meadville area have gone bankrupt. Two of
the shop owners have committed suicide. The number of toolmakers laid off
in the Meadville area is now approaching 800.
****What we desperately need is for the president of the United States to
enact what is known as "House Rule 44". This ruling allows the President to
initiate an emergency tariff "in the interest of national security". Whether
the security issues are military or economic. In this case, it would be
economic - or would it??? They've had our spy planes. Now they have
stealth nuclear submarines.
I received this letter from Scott Sando and plan on passing it on to as many
people as possible. I am urging you to e-mail or call the White House. You
can e-mail the President and Vice-President at pres...@whitehouse.gov
<mailto:pres...@whitehouse.gov and put your letter to the attention of
President Bush, do the same for Vice-President Chaney. You can call the
White House comment ine at 202/456-1111. Maybe if we stand united in this,
we can do something to make a Difference for the future of our country, our
own futures and the futures of our children and grandchildren.
July 30,2001
My name is Glenn Caspary and I am a third generation toolmaker, working in
the plastics industry for 39 years. My son and my two nephews are now
fourth generation toolmakers. I strongly influenced them to go into our
trade, as it has always been so good to our family with regards to always
being able to make a good living. At this time I am very worried for their
futures and they're families' well being. During my years in the trade I
have seen both good and bad times but never like this. Anyone working in
this industry knows how bad it is but I don't think they realize that this
is a different situation than we have had before, due to the changing world
we now live in. This is not just the global economy we see impacting our
business, but I truly feel this is communist China at war with us and most
of the country doesn't even know it.
"Jim D" <"molds(NOSPAM)"@starband.net> wrote in message
news:3CB98331...@starband.net...
John Coulston
how many molds do you want. You think this problem only applies to mold
manufacturing. You are wrong. Ill be laughing when all design work is done
in China and you are out of a job, remember don't whine. It is easy to
build parts cheap when your labor cost is less than what an American company
has to pay in associated regulatory costs. Do you think the Chinese have to
worry about any environmental regulations? Do you think the have OSHA,
Workers Comp, benefits? I guess getting a meal would be considered a
benefit.
You think this is just a manufacturing problem? Read the following report
from the Business Software Alliance on pirated software around the world.
http://www.bsa.org/resources/2001-05-21.55.pdf Looks like 94% of the
software used in China is illegal, total cost uhm just a little over 4
billion dollars, that's chump change right, stop whining. I wonder how many
copies are of SolidWorks.
Want to read a horror story? Read the Cox Commission Report.
http://www.house.gov/coxreport/cont/gncont.html . I wonder what the title
of Chapter 1 is? Chapter 1: "PRC Acquisition of U.S. Technology". I'm
sure they pay for everything they steal. O wait I mean they steal everything
they steal. You get the point.
DO you think patents; copyrights or any other law mean anything to China? I
doubt it. Let everyone else do the research and development steal it and
use it as you own. Better yet, get paid to steal the technology when you
make somthing for pennies on the dollar. What a great way to cut cost, I
think I'll start today. By the way Phil what do you use SolidWorks for, I
think that's the same thing I'm going to do it will be you design but I
guess that doesn't matter. Don't whine.
Remember when we are all out of job because of Chinese unfair trade
practices and theft of technology, NO WHINING.
John
"Phil Evans" <pev...@tagaerospace.com> wrote in message
news:3cbb4aa3$1...@binarykiller.newsgroups.com...
wgates666
jcou...@cbrcnc.com quipped:
> I am not religious, but I understand that even the Bible talks of this. To
> the effect that the yellow race will dominate the earth and the eagle will
> fade away. We should be smart enough to keep this from happening WE ARE
> SMART ENOUGH - I hope.
this little paragraph makes that entire post worthless.
1) who the fsck cares what the bible says?
2) doesn't this seem just a TAD racist?
--john
Pete J. Kavelish
newsgroup and it is filled with guys who are doing freelance, that can't
find work. Wonder why. Did we all stop buying thing? Grow up. Racist?
We are all of the Human race.
"wgates666" <jjablonski...@deluxestitcher.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1725f1e8f...@news.speakeasy.org...
wgates666
well how else do interpret the horror of the "yellow race"?
we can't let those slanty-eyed yellow bastards take over the world!
--john
In article <ubodu0e...@news.supernews.com>, pkav...@hotmail.com
quipped:
Bob Zee
news:MPG.1725f1e8f...@news.speakeasy.org...
> In article <x2Vu8.18$uo.2...@newshog.newsread.com>,
john, john, john. sheesh.
someone who uses 666 in their 'profile' doesn't give a 'fsck' what the
bible says? that is VERY interesting. who cares if it is racist? life
isn't a track meet, it's a marathon.
maybe you are overweight and don't really care where your next meal is
coming from.
get your head out of your ass and wake up. this is a 'race' that to
lose is death.
bob z.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Jacob Filek
"Pete J. Kavelish" <pkav...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ubodu0e...@news.supernews.com...
Bob Zee
news:a9hi80$1e04$1...@madmax.keyway.net...
> Who said: "Can't we all just get along?"
>
>
>
bob z. said it once. bob z. thinks we might need someone with a
camera.
by the way, april 29th is coming up real soon. everybody remember what
happened on that day many moons ago?
Pete J. Kavelish
be discussed. Racism was the least of it, yet you choose to go there. My
personal belief is that they(china) will never take over the world, we will.
Oh wait, my skin is kinda yellow too.
"wgates666" <jjablonski...@deluxestitcher.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1725fe344...@news.speakeasy.org...
Pete J. Kavelish
http://www.historychannel.com/tdih/index.html
On April 29, 1945, the U.S. Seventh Army's 45th Infantry Division liberates
Dachau, the first concentration camp established by Germany's Nazi regime. A
major Dachau subcamp was liberated the same day by the 42nd Rainbow
Division.
Established five weeks after Adolf Hitler took power as German chancellor in
1933, Dachau was situated on the outskirts of the town of Dachau, about 10
miles northwest of Munich. During its first year, the camp held about 5,000
political prisoners, consisting primarily of German communists, Social
Democrats, and other political opponents of the Nazi regime. During the next
few years, the number of prisoners grew dramatically, and other groups were
interned at Dachau, including Jehovah's Witnesses, Gypsies, homosexuals, and
repeat criminals. Beginning in 1938, Jews began to comprise a major portion
of camp internees.
Prisoners at Dachau were used as forced laborers, initially in the
construction and expansion of the camp and later for German armaments
production. The camp served as the training center for SS concentration camp
guards and was a model for other Nazi concentration camps. Dachau was also
the first Nazi camp to use prisoners as human guinea pigs in medical
experiments. At Dachau, Nazi scientists tested the effects of freezing and
changes to atmospheric pressure on inmates, infected them with malaria and
tuberculosis and treated them with experimental drugs, and forced them to
test methods of making seawater potable and of halting excessive bleeding.
Hundreds of prisoners died or were crippled as a result of these
experiments.
Thousands of inmates died or were executed at Dachau, and thousands more
were transferred to a Nazi extermination center near Linz, Austria, when
they became too sick or weak to work. In 1944, to increase war production,
the main camp was supplemented by dozens of satellite camps established near
armaments factories in southern Germany and Austria. These camps were
administered by the main camp and collectively called Dachau.
With the advance of Allied forces against Germany in April 1945, the Germans
transferred prisoners from concentration camps near the front to Dachau,
leading to a general deterioration of conditions and typhus epidemics. On
April 27, 1945, approximately 7,000 prisoners, mostly Jews, were forced to
begin a death march from Dachau to Tegernsee, far to the south. The next
day, many of the SS guards abandoned the camp. On April 29, the Dachau main
camp was liberated by units of the 45th Infantry after a brief battle with
the camp's remaining guards.
As they neared the camp, the Americans found more than 30 railroad cars
filled with bodies in various states of decomposition. Inside the camp there
were more bodies and 30,000 survivors, most severely emaciated. Some of the
American troops who liberated Dachau were so appalled by conditions at the
camp that they machine-gunned at least two groups of captured German guards.
It is officially reported that 30 SS guards were killed in this fashion, but
conspiracy theorists have alleged that more than 10 times that number were
executed by the American liberators. The German citizens of the town of
Dachau were later forced to bury the 9,000 dead inmates found at the camp.
In the course of Dachau's history, at least 160,000 prisoners passed through
the main camp, and 90,000 through the subcamps. Incomplete records indicate
that at least 32,000 of the inmates perished at Dachau and its subcamps, but
countless more were shipped to extermination camps elsewhere.
"Bob Zee" <cam...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d29219909c4023a51cf...@mygate.mailgate.org...
wgates666
my point was, if you're going to present what is supposed to be
rational, logical argument, don't throw crap in that is certain to make
you look like an irrational buffoon. Leave out the part about the bible
and the yellow race and try and discuss this rationally.
and bobz, about this: "someone who uses 666 in their 'profile' doesn't
give a 'fsck' what the bible says? that is VERY interesting." 1) bill
gates IS pure evil. and (2), more seriously, don't assume that what the
bible says is relevant to everyone. what does a hindu or a buddhist
REALLY care about what's in the bible? neither one believes jesus is
god. adding what the _bible_ says about _tariffs_ turns off a good
number of people, and makes the preceding argument FOR tariffs look very
much like an emotional appeal rather then a rational one.
--john
on a more humorous note...try this at a terminal....(saw this in a .sig)
>ping god
Unknown host god.
In article <uboj71f...@news.supernews.com>, pkav...@hotmail.com
quipped:
Bob Zee
> and bobz, about this: "someone who uses 666 in their 'profile' doesn't
> give a 'fsck' what the bible says? that is VERY interesting." 1) bill
> gates IS pure evil. and (2), more seriously, don't assume that what the
> bible says is relevant to everyone. what does a hindu or a buddhist
> REALLY care about what's in the bible? neither one believes jesus is
> god. adding what the _bible_ says about _tariffs_ turns off a good
> number of people, and makes the preceding argument FOR tariffs look very
> much like an emotional appeal rather then a rational one.
>
> --john
>
>
> on a more humorous note...try this at a terminal....(saw this in a .sig)
> >ping god
> Unknown host god.
bob z. has to agree with you. bill gates IS pure evil.
you are right on another account. bringing religion into this matter
just 'muddies' the water.
bob z. is VERY neutral when it comes to religion. when people seem
inconsistent in bob z.'s eyes, he must speak. this is a little
shortcoming that bob z. must overcome; especially if he is to live a
more fruitful life!
thanks for setting the record straight.
bob z.
p.s. we all need to be more rational. bob z. especially.
Chunks
with manufacturers jumping from one cheap source of labour with lax
regulation to another (think Export Processing Zones in the Phillipines, Sri
Lanka and Indonesia).
China's just the current endpoint in the line (cheapest and most willing to
comply with western manufacturers). Their (China's) industries have access
to a large pool of bright and and well educated people (even if it is a
minute percentage of the total population), which probably explains why they
are so good at doing mould tools.
Remember, it's not just your mould tools that are made in these places.
Have you had a look at the clothes you wear every day? Where were they
made? US (UK / EU in my case) Mexico, Phillipines, Indonesia, China ...
What's happened to your local textile industry? Where did it relocate to?
The mould / plastics industry is just the latest in a long line that have
gone in search of lower costs (labour, legislative, whatever).
It may p##s you off to see rapidly increasing number of tools being sent to
China for fab (and I do this myself :-( ) but ask yourself how it happens.
In my recent experience, what happens is you get one or two (or more) local
US quotes (UK +US for me) and then send the design over to China for a
look-see. In one recent tool,, we obtained a price of approx. US$23K in the
UK, $16K in the US and $4k in China. Hmm. What do you reckon my boss said
when we received these quotes "Hey, lets go to the UK supplier and try and
protect local jobs"? Errrr, no. His pressures from above are to minimise
costs. The pressure for his boss are to minimise costs, and so on and so
forth until you reach the institutional investors who want a return. Well,
that's not coming from an expanding (ho-ho) market, is it? And then you can
factor in the effects of market pressures driving down prices and demanding
increasing bang-for-buck in the end product.
And before we (I) start getting too fixed on the manufacturing side of
things, there have been some very disturbing (yet inevitable) developments
in the UK with regard to (for example) call centres (ie places you 'phone up
to sort out gas/ electricity/ mobile phone/ credit card bills or flight
reservations), definately part of the 'Service Industry'. Increasingly, the
call centres are being relocated to parts of our former empire where english
is readily spoken and costs are that much less... (India, for example) This
is good for them undoubtedly, but not for the areas where these centres have
sprung up in the UK, such as the North East (Leeds up to
Newcastle-upon-Tyne) all former coal, steel, ship or other mass employment
heavy industries that gone to the wall since the 80s. I wonder if heavy
industry has been replaced by such offshoots of the service industry in the
Us / Canada, and what the effect will be if everything is moved out to areas
of lower cost.
What about the software industry? Your favourite app (not suggesting
Solidworks, by the way) coded in Bangalore, Nairobi or Mexico City?
It's not the Chinese, Malaysian, Indonesian or Indians (or any other
relatively cheap source of labour) who are blameworthy here, even if you
question some of the working practices Maybe we should look at our own
corporations and at ourselves (as consumers). We create the demand, after
all. They are merely supplying it. Capitalism is a many-faceted, wonderful
thing, I find.
Having said all that (incoherently as usual), I've no idea what the solution
is, short of the Kevlish / Bosch / Spork (Spock?) idea of one planet/one
nation/one gov (lets leave the Klingons, Borg and other BEM for another
day).
Chris
(yes, I have been at the bottle, but I've only just started...)
This
"John Coulston" <jcou...@cbrcnc.com> wrote in message
news:apWu8.29$uo.4...@newshog.newsread.com...
Jim D
Jim D.
Jim D
Steve Smith
indexable cutting tools) but I have a very different opinion than the
other people here.
The bottom line is that we are in a global economy now. Whether
foreign governments are unfair (whatever than means) or not, we will
face competition like never before. Improved communications are
changing people's expectations all over the world. This will bring us
all closer together and will, ultimately, be the undoing of fanatical
religionists who have controlled their people through ignorance.
However, it does mean that we have to make some changes.
Here in the Detroit area, several generations of auto workers have
been able to afford a nice house in the suburbs, a new car every two
years, a boat etc... without having any skills whatsoever. The work
may be physically difficult and mind-numbing but it should not be a
high paying occupation. For the last twently years we have
competition from other countries where they are able to do the work
for a lot less money. Now, foreign competion is starting to intrude
on the more skilled jobs and your oxe is getting gored! It's not
fair! Let's put up barriers to protect American workers, blah, blah,
blah.
Well, if I lived in a third world country and saw how Americans live I
might think that was unfair. It would be a good thing for my
government to subsidize the development of industry so that we could
share in some of the wealth. Wake up people - this is going to happen
- tarriffs or not.
Now it is a depressing realization to think that our way of life is
being threatened but I believe government intervention is exactly what
we don't need. America is America because we a free people with the
ability to use our creative talents to pursue our dreams. For many of
us that means building a better mousetrap. We need government to get
off our backs - that means less regulation, less subsidizing companies
and industries that can't compete, and simplify the tax code. Way too
much of our time and money is spent on lawyers and accountants which
do nothing to improve the standard of living in this country. We need
to be free to innovate and remain the world's leaders. There, you've
seen my axe-grinding.
I don't know how our workforce will adapt to the changing
non-manufacturing economy but they must. We did it when industry
replaced farming and we will do it again. It may take going through
some hard times for the reality to sink in.
That's just my opion - I may be wrong.
Steve
John
still put some of this problem on the US workers. Why does a tool cost
$50,000 - $60,000 here and only $6000 - $8000. I feel that there are 3
main reasons. The first is the greedy union workers that keep asking
for more and more money and benefits and not willing to work. Why
should a non skilled floor sweeper in a union shop make $20-$30 an
hour not including benefits. Add in the benefits and your adding
another $10-15 dollars per hour. This adds to the cost of making
anything.
Why should a non union employee when bidding on a government job have
to bid at union wages and not at what he is currently getting paid for
the non government job he just bid on.
Another reason is because of all the people trying to get rich by
suing everybody for anything possible. Why should a person that is
stupid enough to try to trim his hedges with a lawnmower be able to
sue that manufacturer because he got hurt doing something that wasn't
listed as a warning or caution not to do it. You have to add in all
the liability insurance that a company needs to cover for this
mentallity. This adds to the cost of making anything.
Throw in the cost of being ISO certified and you add additional costs
to any job. What does the ISO certification give you. A papertrail to
cover your A$$ when the idiot sues you because he tried cutting his
hedges with the lawnmower.
We have to look at ways here to design and build our tools more
efficiently here. It's true we can't compete with people that steal
our designs, tools and even our military secrets from the spy plane
they borrowed for a couple of months, but more government red tape
isn't going to solve the problem.
wgates666
thank you for saying that for me.
and much more eloquently than I could have done, as well. :)
--john
In article <2138eedc.02041...@posting.google.com>,
bage...@flash.net quipped:
Jon Schmidt
I think you are over looking something. The transition from farming to
industrial production, was still production of salable goods that
contributed to the wealth of America. Our shift to a service economy is a
plan for a decreased standard of living in America and a threat to our
safety. When a country increases the proportion of service to production
related business, the wealth of the country will decline, study Japan.
Tarrifs on imports makes good sense to a country with a trade deficit and a
declining manufacturing sector, this is fundamental economics. The mantra
that "free trade is good for our economy" is not supported by any facts,
rather it is propaganda spouted by those in economically powerfull positions
to benefit from it. Don't be duped by these cliches.
The standard of living of Americans has declined in my life time. I can't
afford the house my parents bought and I have twice thier productivity,
motivation and skill. Americans were better off before we began importing
manufactured goods and would be better off if we simply stopped it.
Unfortunatly, political contributions being what they are, this won't
happen.
You mention that people in other countries probably think it is unfair of us
to put tarrifs on thier products. I have been there, you're right, they do.
This should be the last thing we care about, becauase to tell you the truth
if America sank into the ocean 95% of the world would celebrate. Our
governmnet should be concerned with our best interest and not the well being
of anyone else. The countries that we have aided the most (Arabia, Egypt)
give us some of our biggest problems and the ones we overpowered, Japan,
Germany and Russia have become better countries as a result.
Jerry Steiger
news:2138eedc.02041...@posting.google.com...
Big snip of a very good explanation of trade issues
> I don't know how our workforce will adapt to the changing
> non-manufacturing economy but they must. We did it when industry
> replaced farming and we will do it again. It may take going through
> some hard times for the reality to sink in.
Actually, farmers are some of the biggest feeders at the federal trough. One
of the best things we could do for the Third World would be to stop
subsidizing our farmers. In essence, we dump wheat, rice, soy beans, etc. on
the rest of the world and their farmers can't compete. Of course, the
Europeans are even worse in this area than us.
To bring this a little closer to home, the tools for our last product were
built in the US, primarily because we didn't trust the folks in the Far East
to do it right and quickly enough, given the expected multiple turn-arounds.
The tools for the next product are most likely going to be made in the US as
well, primarily for speed. The product after that? Who knows, they're
getting better all the time. We have to get better, too.
> That's just my opion - I may be wrong.
Nah, you're right. But that's just my opinion.
Jerry Steiger
At Work Computers
Jerry Steiger
news:FLJv8.53107$zN.25...@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> I think you are over looking something. The transition from farming to
> industrial production, was still production of salable goods that
> contributed to the wealth of America. Our shift to a service economy is a
> plan for a decreased standard of living in America and a threat to our
> safety. When a country increases the proportion of service to production
> related business, the wealth of the country will decline, study Japan.
I disagree. I design things. That is a service. There are many services that
pay well and make life better for those who receive them. If we provide
better services at a better price, we will prosper. Japan has a lot of
problems, but one of the biggest is the way they protected their internal
markets, so that they are incredibly inefficient.
> Tarrifs on imports makes good sense to a country with a trade deficit and
a
> declining manufacturing sector, this is fundamental economics. The mantra
> that "free trade is good for our economy" is not supported by any facts,
> rather it is propaganda spouted by those in economically powerfull
positions
> to benefit from it. Don't be duped by these cliches.
I think you are the one who is being duped by cliches. Tarrifs are a way to
protect the inefficient and incompetent. The big steel companies and their
workers can't compete with the smaller US steel companies, nor even with the
overseas competition. They need to either come up to speed or get out of
business. They've had many years of protection and it hasn't helped them get
going. This latest round will just make them worse and increase the cost
when they eventually die.
> The standard of living of Americans has declined in my life time. I can't
> afford the house my parents bought and I have twice thier productivity,
> motivation and skill. Americans were better off before we began importing
> manufactured goods and would be better off if we simply stopped it.
> Unfortunatly, political contributions being what they are, this won't
> happen.
No, we're (in the average) better off than we were. When other people can
produce something for less than we can, we can put our energy into doing
something that we do better. Everyone gains. We don't pay as much for the
stuff we buy from abroad. They don't pay as much for the stuff we sell them
(whether it is physical stuff or "service" stuff).
> You mention that people in other countries probably think it is unfair of
us
> to put tarrifs on thier products. I have been there, you're right, they
do.
> This should be the last thing we care about, becauase to tell you the
truth
> if America sank into the ocean 95% of the world would celebrate. Our
> governmnet should be concerned with our best interest and not the well
being
> of anyone else. The countries that we have aided the most (Arabia, Egypt)
> give us some of our biggest problems and the ones we overpowered, Japan,
> Germany and Russia have become better countries as a result.
No argument there, although I'm not too sure that Russia is all that much
better right now.
Jon Schmidt
that
> pay well and make life better for those who receive them. If we provide
> better services at a better price, we will prosper. Japan has a lot of
> problems, but one of the biggest is the way they protected their internal
> markets, so that they are incredibly inefficient.
I don't thgink you understand the definition of service sector and
manufacturing sector in econimic terms.
Design is manufacturing labor in that it directly contributes toward the
production of a product.
When you think of the impact of a transition from a manufacturing economy to
a service economy imagine this analogy:
A ring of ten people, each one involved in production of some manufactured
product. One person decides to go into the back scratching bussiness and
scratches the others backs. While thier may be some benefit to the group,
the wealth of the group will be decreased because the productiuon will be
lower. Extend this trend to make five of the people in the back scratching
bussiness and they will buy the items that they used to produce the result
becomes more obvious. The wealth of the group declines because the money is
exported.
Another good anolgy is a resturant, think of the cooks as manufacturing and
waiters as service sector, as the proportion of waiters to cooks increases
the value (quality divided by price) decreases because the waiters add
overhead without adding substaintial value. This is what is happening to our
country. Read The Futer of Capitalism, it is a bit old now but we can see
the accuracy of Lesters predictions validate his opinions.
> I think you are the one who is being duped by cliches.
Check the trade policy of America in the past and that of other countries
and you will see that we are being sold out to large corporations. Our
recent policy goes against all recognised economic principles and follows
the blather of people like Rush Limbaugh and Bill Clinton, (two sides of the
same coin (both favored NAFTA)).
Tarrifs are a way to
> protect the inefficient and incompetent. The big steel companies and their
> workers can't compete with the smaller US steel companies, nor even with
the
> overseas competition. They need to either come up to speed or get out of
> business. They've had many years of protection and it hasn't helped them
get
> going. This latest round will just make them worse and increase the cost
> when they eventually die.
Have you ever been to China and seen the life of our compettion? By
importing their labor, we import thier $2.00 a day standard of living. They
don't beat us by efficiency, they beat us by what would be considered slave
labor in the US. On one trip, I was invited to the home of one of the
employees of the shop I was visiting. If his house was a shack in your back
yard, you would tear it down, yet he was proud of it. Soon after arriving at
this house he went to a pen made of old pallets behind his shack and pulled
out a German Shepard mix dog and tied it with a coat hanger to the outside
of the pen. He proceeded to cut the dogs leg to bleed it to death but began
to skin it before it died. He later sold the skin and fed the meat from the
dog to his family and the guts to the puppies of the same dog. This is an
ordinary day to him. I understand why thier life it the way it is, and I
also understand that when you support thier bussiness, you only enrich the
already wealthy and powerfull in China, the lot of the worker stays the same
because of the endless supply of workers.
I know our politicians won't do anything with tarifs but there is a chance
they will devlue the dollar some, this is probably the bestthing that could
happen to us.
Steve Smith
Thank you for your spirited response to my post.
I am not trying to say that a service economy is preferrable to a
manufacturing economy. I agree with you that after everything is said
and done, our standard of living is predicated on the things we can
make. If we were all tending our own plot of land to feed our family
we would work sunup to sundown and have no toys or time to play with
them. However, I do believe that the easy days are over. Can we
continue to grow and prosper by designing revolutionary new products,
make a bundle off the first couple of years (months, weeks, days?) of
production and then watch it get "reverse-engineered" and
mass-produced overseas? I have to admit, that's hard to imagine. But
I see that as our only hope for the long-term.
That is why I feel depressed when I think about the changes we have to
go through and am uncertain where the future of this country is for my
children. But building a wall around the US is sticking your head in
the sand. It may work for a while but we will be come uncompetitive
in the world market. Is it your opinion that we can raise our
standard of living by selling only within our own country? If it is,
I would have to, respectfully, disagree.
Thank you for your story about your trip to China but I think you are
making my point for me. These people are living in deplorable
conditions but to them it is better than what was before. They will
not go back. These people are hungry and desperate and will be more
competitive, first at low-skill jobs but later as their circumstances
improve and they become better educated, they'll move up the food
chain. This will happen regardless of whether we allow them to sell
the US or not.
I think you misunderstood my comment about the fairness issue. Yes,
most of the world does hate us because we are so rich. I'm not saying
that we need to do the right thing so that everyone will love us. I
was just pointing out that when you say that other governments are not
behaving "fairly" it is meaningless term. Fairness depends on where
you are living.
I'm sure I'm not going to change your thinking Jon and I welcome your
response.
Steve
Steve Smith
Thank you for your kind words and support Jerry. It's good to know
that there are other like-minded people out there. I am so sick of
people looking to the government to take care of every problem they
face. Mr. Clinton got elected because he listened to people, felt
their pain, bit his lower lip, and had a government program to take
care of their problem. I would have asked him what he was going to do
for me. If I plan a family picnic and it rains it ruins everything.
What could he do about that?
Thanks again Jerry.
Steve
Steve Smith
> thank you for saying that for me.
>
> and much more eloquently than I could have done, as well. :)
>
> --john
>
>
Looking at your previous posts, you were right on the money regarding
the "yellow terror". Sounds like racism to me. Just one more thing
to throw out to attract people to your cause along with fairness and
patriotism.
Steve
Jon Schmidt
Is it your opinion that we can raise our
> standard of living by selling only within our own country? If it is,
> I would have to, respectfully, disagree.
>
Of course not, we should sell all we can to other counties and buy only
those things that we do not have natural resources to support. The fact that
our trade deficit is as large as it is, proves that there is no connection
to what people will buy from China as a result of their tariffs on our
products. Our policies should reverse this trend. Unfortunately, those that
make those policies have sold out to the highest bidders. Unfortunalty for
us, designers and mold makers don't even get noticed on that bidding war.
As for their level of life improving, it isn't, the people are just doing
anything they can to get buy and there is no limit to the supply of people
that they can exploit for less than you spend on gasoline to get to and from
work. The will not change in several life-times.
The low price of Chinese products has nothing to do with competition, it is
the fruit exploitation. Eating those fruits is the same as taking drugs, it
makes you feel great at first but the long term price in degradation of
America is far greater than the savings from the cheap products.
Best Regards
Jon Schmidt
Dez Akin
> "Steve Smith" <bage...@flash.net> wrote in message
> news:2138eedc.0204...@posting.google.com...
> Is it your opinion that we can raise our
> > standard of living by selling only within our own country? If it is,
> > I would have to, respectfully, disagree.
> >
>
>
> Of course not, we should sell all we can to other counties and buy only
> those things that we do not have natural resources to support. The fact that
> our trade deficit is as large as it is, proves that there is no connection
> to what people will buy from China as a result of their tariffs on our
> products. Our policies should reverse this trend. Unfortunately, those that
> make those policies have sold out to the highest bidders. Unfortunalty for
> us, designers and mold makers don't even get noticed on that bidding war.
Economics really isn't your profession apparently.
> As for their level of life improving, it isn't, the people are just doing
> anything they can to get buy and there is no limit to the supply of people
> that they can exploit for less than you spend on gasoline to get to and from
> work. The will not change in several life-times.
Hardly. Look at Shanghai. I have friends and coworkers from there.
China's markets are booming, and its because of cheap labor. Virtually
every emerging market (including what happened in japan for four
decades) succeeds because of cheap labor. The cheap labor accelerates
the economy, and provides material wealth to build stronger capital
repositories.
There are two types of successful economies, markets and slave labor
economies. Capitalism or old school stalinism.
> The low price of Chinese products has nothing to do with competition, it is
> the fruit exploitation. Eating those fruits is the same as taking drugs, it
> makes you feel great at first but the long term price in degradation of
> America is far greater than the savings from the cheap products.
Not at all. We've advanced to being a country of engineers and service
providers. We design all the really cool stuff that everyone else
uses, and everyone else manufactures the stuff we would be wasting our
effort on manufacturing. Its all about opportunity costs.
Of course, I expect a sophist reply detailing why I'm wrong, and I
expect it will contain the standard anti-globalization arguments.
If we don't trade with other countries, we hurt ourselves by depriving
ourselves of cheap resources and manufactured goods, and we deprive
other countries of jobs. We both end up poorer. You can call it
exploitation, but without someone 'exploiting' the cheap labor, people
wouldn't have any jobs except meager subsistance. Isolationalism is
for people that don't understand economics.
Terrence
>>
>>
>> Of course not, we should sell all we can to other counties and buy only
>> those things that we do not have natural resources to support. The fact that
>> our trade deficit is as large as it is, proves that there is no connection
>> to what people will buy from China as a result of their tariffs on our
>> products. Our policies should reverse this trend. Unfortunately, those that
>> make those policies have sold out to the highest bidders. Unfortunalty for
>> us, designers and mold makers don't even get noticed on that bidding war.
>
>Economics really isn't your profession apparently.
Not an argument, just an insult.
>
>> As for their level of life improving, it isn't, the people are just doing
>> anything they can to get buy and there is no limit to the supply of people
>> that they can exploit for less than you spend on gasoline to get to and from
>> work. The will not change in several life-times.
>
>Hardly. Look at Shanghai. I have friends and coworkers from there.
>China's markets are booming, and its because of cheap labor. Virtually
>every emerging market (including what happened in japan for four
>decades) succeeds because of cheap labor. The cheap labor accelerates
>the economy, and provides material wealth to build stronger capital
>repositories.
Oh look... Something interesting to say.
>
>There are two types of successful economies, markets and slave labor
>economies. Capitalism or old school stalinism.
>
>> The low price of Chinese products has nothing to do with competition, it is
>> the fruit exploitation. Eating those fruits is the same as taking drugs, it
>> makes you feel great at first but the long term price in degradation of
>> America is far greater than the savings from the cheap products.
>
>Not at all. We've advanced to being a country of engineers and service
>providers. We design all the really cool stuff that everyone else
>uses, and everyone else manufactures the stuff we would be wasting our
>effort on manufacturing. Its all about opportunity costs.
>
>Of course, I expect a sophist reply detailing why I'm wrong, and I
>expect it will contain the standard anti-globalization arguments.
And again, the "If you don't agree with me you must be stupid."
statement
>
>If we don't trade with other countries, we hurt ourselves by depriving
>ourselves of cheap resources and manufactured goods, and we deprive
>other countries of jobs. We both end up poorer. You can call it
>exploitation, but without someone 'exploiting' the cheap labor, people
>wouldn't have any jobs except meager subsistance. Isolationalism is
>for people that don't understand economics.
And again, the "If you don't agree with me you must be stupid."
statement
Some interesting comments, but you get a "D" for the insults.
Terrence
Bob Zee
news:2138eedc.0204...@posting.google.com...
> I think you misunderstood my comment about the fairness issue. Yes,
> most of the world does hate us because we are so rich. I'm not saying
> that we need to do the right thing so that everyone will love us. I
> was just pointing out that when you say that other governments are not
> behaving "fairly" it is meaningless term. Fairness depends on where
> you are living.
> Steve
Mr. Smith,
do you think that you and bob z. can add their salaries together, you
take half and bob z. take the other half? bob z. is sure that he makes
a lot less money than you. bob z. doesn't drive a new car (1972 model -
BIG holes in the floor). bob z. doesn't live in a new house.
bob z. hopes you can see the point he is making.
bob z.
p.s. hocked my brains and headed west...
Bob Zee
he doesn't make much sense (cents?).
bob z.
p.s. wanna apologize for talking out of line...
Jon Schmidt
> providers. We design all the really cool stuff that everyone else
> uses, and everyone else manufactures the stuff we would be wasting our
> effort on manufacturing. Its all about opportunity costs.
>Economics really isn't your profession apparently.
Your argument assumes that if all shop floor people were trained to be
engineers that there is a demand for their skills.
Even if all the "really cool stuff" were being engineered in USA, there
isn't enough demand to employ even a small fraction of the people
transitioning from the shop floor.
Have you noticed the decline in Engineering wages?
Engineering is going offshore just as fast as manufacturing. The current
trend in sourcing at software companies is to send as much work as possible
to India and China. Manufacturing Engineering is doing the same. A friend of
mine that has an independent Mold Design shop tells me that if he worked for
free and only paid for his office, computer and software, he still can't bid
low enough to compete with China.
We don't have fair competition because they ignore the ethics and laws that
we live under. This was the point of my dog story. The going price for any
CAD software SWKS, CATIA, ProE is about $2-$5 in China. They have absolutely
no concept of paying for software. When big companies in China do buy large
amounts of software the price is usually one-sixth (or less) the price of
the same in USA.
Jerry Steiger
Snip
> I don't thgink you understand the definition of service sector and
> manufacturing sector in econimic terms.
> Design is manufacturing labor in that it directly contributes toward the
> production of a product.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. As I recall, the usual way of
dividing this pie in economics in the past was that if a designer worked for
a manufacturing company, his job was counted as a manufacturing job, if he
worked for a design firm, his job was counted as a service job. I believe
the trend now is to count design as a service, wherever the designer works.
> When you think of the impact of a transition from a manufacturing economy
to
> a service economy imagine this analogy:
>
> A ring of ten people, each one involved in production of some manufactured
> product. One person decides to go into the back scratching bussiness and
> scratches the others backs. While thier may be some benefit to the group,
> the wealth of the group will be decreased because the productiuon will be
> lower. Extend this trend to make five of the people in the back scratching
> bussiness and they will buy the items that they used to produce the result
> becomes more obvious. The wealth of the group declines because the money
is
> exported.
I think this is a bad analogy. Let me twist it a bit. Suppose we are all
working away, but being very inefficient. One of us stops making things and
analyzes the process, comes up with a better way to do it, and convinces the
rest of us to do it his way. Now we only need five people to make stuff. The
other five can now provide services that make life better for all of us.
They could make lunch, swat the flies, scratch our backs, whatever it is
that would make us all enjoy our jobs (and lives) more. That's why our
economy is moving towards more service jobs. Just a few of us can make
enough material goods to keep us all supplied. The rest of us can provide
services to make us happy.
> Another good anolgy is a resturant, think of the cooks as manufacturing
and
> waiters as service sector, as the proportion of waiters to cooks increases
> the value (quality divided by price) decreases because the waiters add
> overhead without adding substaintial value. This is what is happening to
our
> country. Read The Futer of Capitalism, it is a bit old now but we can see
> the accuracy of Lesters predictions validate his opinions.
But restaurants are a service industry! They don't "make" food, they just
prepare and present it to us. Services are good, that's why people buy them!
> Check the trade policy of America in the past and that of other countries
> and you will see that we are being sold out to large corporations. Our
> recent policy goes against all recognised economic principles and follows
> the blather of people like Rush Limbaugh and Bill Clinton, (two sides of
the
> same coin (both favored NAFTA)).
Lots of people, including a lot of economists, recognize different economic
principles than you do. One of the biggest is called the law of comparative
advantage, or something like that (remember, I'm an engineer, not an
economist). Both parties gain when they split up the mix of goods so that
each can use its resources best.
> Have you ever been to China and seen the life of our compettion?
I've never been to the mainland, but I've spent a fair amount of time in
Taiwan.
>
By
> importing their labor, we import thier $2.00 a day standard of living.
No, we import inexpensive products and give them jobs, jobs that they are
very happy to get. We all gain.
>
They
> don't beat us by efficiency, they beat us by what would be considered
slave
> labor in the US.
We beat them by efficiency, they beat us by low labor costs. Those apalling
working conditions are very similar to the ones that we endured a hundred
years ago. We worked our way into better jobs. So will they, provided they
get the chance. Shutting our markets to them will cause them misery and
lower our standard of living as we pay more for the products we could have
gotten from them. Meanwhile, people who could be doing something more
productive will be making the stuff that the foreign workers could have
made. We all lose.
On one trip, I was invited to the home of one of the
> employees of the shop I was visiting. If his house was a shack in your
back
> yard, you would tear it down, yet he was proud of it. Soon after arriving
at
> this house he went to a pen made of old pallets behind his shack and
pulled
> out a German Shepard mix dog and tied it with a coat hanger to the outside
> of the pen. He proceeded to cut the dogs leg to bleed it to death but
began
> to skin it before it died. He later sold the skin and fed the meat from
the
> dog to his family and the guts to the puppies of the same dog. This is an
> ordinary day to him. I understand why thier life it the way it is, and I
> also understand that when you support thier bussiness, you only enrich the
> already wealthy and powerfull in China, the lot of the worker stays the
same
> because of the endless supply of workers.
Yes, you enrich the wealthy and powerful, but you also provide work for your
friend, so that he can get a better house. Trying to hurt the rich and
powerful is not very smart. You hurt your friend much more, as the rich and
powerful can protect themselves much better than he can.
> I know our politicians won't do anything with tarifs but there is a chance
> they will devlue the dollar some, this is probably the bestthing that
could
> happen to us.
Yes, the dollar is too high, but it's not because of the politicians. It's
because so many foreigners are willing to invest in America. If they decide
to pull out, we won't be able to sustain our huge trade deficit. The dollar
will fall, prices of foreign products will rise, and our standard of living
will take a short-term hit until we can sell enough (either goods or
services, it doesn't matter) overseas to get the system back in line.
As, I said in the beginning, I think we will have to agree to disagree.
We've gotten a long ways away from SolidWorks!
Jon Schmidt
> the trend now is to count design as a service, wherever the designer
works.
>
I think if you analize the activiy by its function rather than its literal
name you will get my point.
> I think this is a bad analogy. Let me twist it a bit. Suppose we are all
> working away, but being very inefficient. One of us stops making things
and
> analyzes the process, comes up with a better way to do it, and convinces
the
> rest of us to do it his way. Now we only need five people to make stuff.
The
> other five can now provide services that make life better for all of us.
> They could make lunch, swat the flies, scratch our backs, whatever it is
> that would make us all enjoy our jobs (and lives) more. That's why our
> economy is moving towards more service jobs. Just a few of us can make
> enough material goods to keep us all supplied. The rest of us can provide
> services to make us happy.
About the person that stops making things..... it isn't a shift to service,
Engineering is a munufacturing function not a service job. If those other
five people remained in production rather than scratching backs, the
material wealth of the group grows faster.
>
> > Another good anolgy is a resturant, think of the cooks as manufacturing
> and
> > waiters as service sector, as the proportion of waiters to cooks
increases
> > the value (quality divided by price) decreases because the waiters add
> > overhead without adding substaintial value. This is what is happening to
> our
> > country. Read The Futer of Capitalism, it is a bit old now but we can
see
> > the accuracy of Lesters predictions validate his opinions.
>
> But restaurants are a service industry! They don't "make" food, they just
> prepare and present it to us. Services are good, that's why people buy
them!
Resturants are a called service sector but the internal functions include
manufacturing and service. The reason that resturants are considered service
industry is the waiters, and the staff that maintians the building are the
majority of most resturants overhead.
The cook converts raw materials through his labor into higher value finished
goods. A cook that makes bread in a resturant is no different than a
manufacturing company that makes bread and is no different than a moldmaker
transforming metal into a mold.
> No, we import inexpensive products and give them jobs, jobs that they are
> very happy to get. We all gain.
I guess you haven't driven through Toledo lately. I was forced on a detour
through the center of Toledo after not having been there in 15 years. I was
appauled to see all the small manufacturing companies that were boarded-up.
> We beat them by efficiency, they beat us by low labor costs. Those
apalling
> working conditions are very similar to the ones that we endured a hundred
> years ago. We worked our way into better jobs. So will they, provided they
> get the chance. Shutting our markets to them will cause them misery and
> lower our standard of living as we pay more for the products we could have
> gotten from them. Meanwhile, people who could be doing something more
> productive will be making the stuff that the foreign workers could have
> made. We all lose.
>
When we buy cheap goods and give-up on manufacturing WE LOSE.
When I was in grade school, my partents (mother was a secretary in a real
estate office and my father a purchasing agent for a tire company) earned
enough income to buy a home that I couldn't dream of buying today. They paid
for my brothers to go to Harvard and MIT and bought them new cars for
high-school graduation ( 68 GTO & 70 Raod Runner (I wish I had those cars
now)). Most of our nieghbors had blue collar jobs. I went back to this
neigborhood two years ago and found that the price of these homes had
increased to the level that only bussiness owners and specialist doctors and
lawyers could afford them. In economic terms, the affordabilty of this
lifestyle went from the 50-70% level to the 95-98% of American income
earners. I assure you there are no Engineers buying there now.
> Yes, you enrich the wealthy and powerful, but you also provide work for
your
> friend, so that he can get a better house. Trying to hurt the rich and
> powerful is not very smart. You hurt your friend much more, as the rich
and
> powerful can protect themselves much better than he can.
>
You are wrong about this, by buying things from the powerful in China, you
enable and encourage them to exploit thier people.
> Yes, the dollar is too high, but it's not because of the politicians. It's
> because so many foreigners are willing to invest in America. If they
decide
> to pull out, we won't be able to sustain our huge trade deficit. The
dollar
> will fall, prices of foreign products will rise, and our standard of
living
> will take a short-term hit until we can sell enough (either goods or
> services, it doesn't matter) overseas to get the system back in line.
The reason that the dollar is high is %100 Federal Reserve policy and
nothing else.
When televisions were made in America, our standard of living was better, I
hope we will return to better times but don't expect it. I guess this tells
me that if I want to get ahaead, I will have to exploit foriegn workers and
import cheap products to displace American workers. Or maybe I can go be a
lawyer, both plans sound disgustingly parasitic to me.
Doug_S.
If you check, you will find many restaurants in your area whose SIC
classification is indeed "Manufacturers". This is because US gov'ts
give big breaks to manufacturing. Whether because of immediate
zoning or other specifics, some restaurants can get serious tax breaks
telling the IRS they are not merely restaurants.
I forget what KINDS of manufacturing exactly they usually call
themselves. Seems to me they are often exactly the same as assembly
manufacturers. Huh...their products even have a shelf life, just
like metalcutting inventories. This must be why the analogy received
so much attention by this board. ...not that Joe Blow can't make
his OWN PB and cucumber sandwich (even if he can only guess that
biomedical device manufacture is rocket science.) I gotta suspect
manufacturing doesn't get all the breaks it deserves, like maybe an
honest nationwide push for technical education.
What gets me is that these tag-along "nipping dogs" do not either ever
get tripped up by the dangers of advanced industry -- we're usually
first there, too. So sometimes they even get to call us all rusty
and on our way out.....just venting.
China is the scariest -- it's so big, and NEVER risks ANYTHING. They
readily build industrial infrastructure, but won't let their own
people partake and act critically -- nope its all just for friggin
EXPORT.
.....C'MON BIOTECH!!! ....C'MON NANOTECH!!! --ANYTHING-- ANY new
genie that's powerful enough to show them what putzes they really are.
Oh why, oh why couldn't the bomb have gotten more "popular" there?
....just venting
Jim D
heating and air-conditioning. You can't go to China for that.
Jerry Steiger
Snipping a lot of seemingly pointless arguing
Jon,
Like I said some time ago, we'll just have to agree to disagree. You see me
as a tool of the capitalist running dogs. I see you being duped by the left.
Nothing I say is going to convince you that you're wrong. Nothing you say is
going to convince me that I'm wrong. Let's get back to SW.
Jon Schmidt
Actually I don't believe anything said by the left or the right (I am
disgusted by both political parties, they would sell your eye for a quarter
if it might help get them re-elected) (BTW both parties support free trade),
my point of view is based on the obvious results of our economic and trade
policy. It is a provable fact that we are losing our higher paying jobs to
imported labor and that people are going to lower paying jobs in the service
sector out of desperation. The idea that foreign competition is good for
America has been a huge PR campaign based on theory that opposes all
measured historical evidence. You can read back to the economic policies of
many governments that have had similar issues with trade and see that the
recent mantra about "foreign trade is good" is a new development promoted by
politicians whose campaigns are funded by people that profit from imports.
The idea that we are better-off because we have cheap goods is very short
sighted. It reminds me of the Indians that traded land for a few trinkets.
I'm sure they thought the trinkets were neat and there was more land than
they needed. Similarly When we experience a long recession like Japan has
(BTW a perfect example of the ills of a service based economy (they have
door-men and assistants at every turn)) we will be in a difficult position
to turn it around because we will be cash poor.
Additionally it is bad policy for national defense to allow our
manufacturing base to shrink. It is even a bigger mistake to fuel the
economies of countries that are lead by brutal dictators that as of this
week are consorting with our enemies (Iran).
Frankly the only arguments I have heard in favor of free trade is that:
1. We get cheep stuff
2. It is good for other countries.
3. It make business (this is actually a bogus argument because it drains our
wealth through taxation and export of cash)
If there aren't any better reasons than that, I can't imagine why anyone
would support this unless they are in a position to benefit from it or they
just like people that benefit from it. Or maybe they are just like the
Indians with their trinkets.
"Jerry Steiger" <jer...@AtWorkCom.com> wrote in message
news:aa28s5$7bb04$1...@ID-110347.news.dfncis.de...
Jerry Steiger
Big Snip
> Frankly the only arguments I have heard in favor of free trade is that:
>
> 1. We get cheep stuff
> 2. It is good for other countries.
> 3. It make business (this is actually a bogus argument because it drains
our
> wealth through taxation and export of cash)
>
> If there aren't any better reasons than that, I can't imagine why anyone
> would support this unless they are in a position to benefit from it or
they
> just like people that benefit from it. Or maybe they are just like the
> Indians with their trinkets.
Jon,
I'm too tired of arguing to keep this up. Go to the library every week and
read "The Economist". It's a very good English news magazine. If after a
year of reading you don't believe in free trade, then there is no hope.
Jon Schmidt
> I'm too tired of arguing to keep this up
Actually I'm still waiting to hear a good argument from you. So far the best
argument all I've heard is "we get stuff cheap", if this is the best
argument in favor of free trade, and you think this is a worthy exchange for
the destruction of our manufacturing sector, I agree, there is no hope.
I guess that is all you havne't
"Jerry Steiger" <jer...@AtWorkCom.com> wrote in message
news:aa4d3l$7p9v6$1...@ID-110347.news.dfncis.de...
wgates666
1) US imposes tariffs on imported molds.
2) Other countries impose tariffs on imported US goods.
3) The inefficient mold makers keep their jobs, while other people in
industries having NOTHING to do with mold makers lose their jobs.
Europe is looking at imposing 100% traiffs on US goods because of our
stupid steel tariffs to protect an industry that never learned to
compete in a global market. also, the smaller US steel producers didn't
even WANT the tariffs. They learned to modernize and adapt.
This is good *how* again?
--john
In article <TJmx8.52250$VQ2.32...@twister.socal.rr.com>,
jonatha...@mail.com quipped:
Jerry Steiger
>
> > I'm too tired of arguing to keep this up
>
> Actually I'm still waiting to hear a good argument from you. So far the
best
> argument all I've heard is "we get stuff cheap", if this is the best
> argument in favor of free trade, and you think this is a worthy exchange
for
> the destruction of our manufacturing sector, I agree, there is no hope.
If that's all you've heard, then either you're not listening or I'm not
putting it in words you can understand. In either case, it seems pointless
to continue.
Jon Schmidt
I think you might be asking the perfect question. Please clarify some things
you mentioned to make sure I understand your position before I answer.
1) US imposes tariffs on imported molds.
>
> 2) Other countries impose tariffs on imported US goods.
Are you referring to a connection between 1 and 2?
> 3) The inefficient mold makers keep their jobs, while other people in
> industries having NOTHING to do with mold makers lose their jobs.
Please expand on this particularly inefficient mold makers and the
connection to jobs in other industries.
"wgates666" <jjablonski...@deluxestitcher.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17306c132...@news.speakeasy.org...
wgates666
jonatha...@mail.com quipped:
> John
>
> I think you might be asking the perfect question. Please clarify some things
> you mentioned to make sure I understand your position before I answer.
>
> 1) US imposes tariffs on imported molds.
> >
> > 2) Other countries impose tariffs on imported US goods.
>
> Are you referring to a connection between 1 and 2?
retaliatory(sp?) tariffs.
like I said, europe is looking to put 100% tariffs on us imported goods
because of our steel tariffs.
so then because of THAT, i guess we'll just have to raise our tariffs
again.
so, yes there is a connection.
> > 3) The inefficient mold makers keep their jobs, while other people in
> > industries having NOTHING to do with mold makers lose their jobs.
>
> Please expand on this particularly inefficient mold makers and the
> connection to jobs in other industries.
lets see. farmers. harley employees. everyone who has a job that sends
goods to europe. all those things will cost more in europe. meaning less
sales. meaning people lose jobs.
so, to sum up, in order to keep a few inefficient compaines afloat here
in the us, we screw a bunch of other people. So THOSE people lose their
jobs instead. you know, industries that have actually managed to adapt
to a global market.
and yes, we do get cheap things without tariffs. but we also send out
goods which are cheaper somewhere else.
--john
Steve Smith
> John
>
> I think you might be asking the perfect question. Please clarify some things
> you mentioned to make sure I understand your position before I answer.
>
> 1) US imposes tariffs on imported molds.
> >
> > 2) Other countries impose tariffs on imported US goods.
>
>
> Are you referring to a connection between 1 and 2?
>
>
> > 3) The inefficient mold makers keep their jobs, while other people in
> > industries having NOTHING to do with mold makers lose their jobs.
>
> Please expand on this particularly inefficient mold makers and the
> connection to jobs in other industries.
>
Jon
There is so much I could write in response to your posts but I will
have to keep it short. This discussion is interesting but doesn't pay
the bills.
If I understand you correctly, you want to make sure that workers in
the mold industry keep their jobs and that they are paid what they
used to be paid before foreign competition was a factor. Correct? I
do not believe that tariffs are the appropriate answer.
I agree with you that skilled workers should be paid more than burger
flippers. We may disagree on how much more, what other factors to
consider (are they working to ą.0005" or ą.005", years at the same
job, flexibility, personality, or even is the shop air conditioned or
is it miserably hot in the summer, etc....), or whether it is that
burger flippers are relatively overpaid and mold makers underpaid or
vise-versa. I think you would agree with me that no central planning
committee should dictate the pay rate, it should be up to the market
to decide. But now we part company; you think the market should be
restricted to within the US because other countries are unfair and we
can't compete, I believe it should be the world market. What
fundamental moral, ethical, or economic basis do you get your position
from? The only answer you have is pragmatism, the end justifies the
means. There is a problem (ie we are losing high-paying jobs in the
US) so lets come up with a solution to fix it (restrict foreign
imports). Ok, now lets wash our hands - problem solved - the mold
makers can now live happily ever after. Oh, by the way we should
probably have government build in some guarenteed wage increases so
that pay keeps up with inflation too or we'll be unhappy again in a
few years. Oh, and those of us in Detroit can't compete with
Milwaukee because the big 3 have inflated pay and benefits here and
California has a higher cost-of-living than Pennsylvania. Maybe we
should have interstate tariffs to set things straight there too. This
is getting more complicated than I thought. How can I make sure that
everything is fair for everyone? Wait a minute, I'm getting carried
away. As long as Americans keep their jobs it doesn't matter if we
have high unemployment in Michigan and California we've just got to
make sure that those foreigners don't take the jobs. But what about
foreigners right here in the US? Do we allow them to take jobs from
2nd generation Americans. Are Asians less deserving than Europeans?
How do we treat foreign companies with manufacturing plants in this
country? Is that ok? Is it ok for them to import components or
should it all be made here?
You accuse those of us that disagree with tariffs as being
short-sighted because we just want "cheap stuff". Please think about
your position with an open mind and you might see a little more to our
argument. The world is a complicated place and the only fair arbiter
of how wealth should be distributed is the free market. Anything else
is not just unworkable, it is immoral.
Steve
Jon Schmidt
Short Answer and Long answer:
Short answer:
If you are in a trade deficit, you are by definition exporting your wealth.
If you can agree that it is a bad thing to export our wealth, then I hope
you will support a means to curtail it. The prevailing methods to control a
trade deficit are: tarrifs, and devalueing the dollar through inflation. I
will accept either.
Long Answer:
First understand that three or four years ago I would have agreed with you
and made the same arguments.
I had a lucky streak when I worked at a medical company and recieved some
stock-options and patented a medical connector valve that enabled me to
start some of my own business ventures. I traveled to, and did business in
China, Korea, Tiawan, Japan, Germany, England, Denmark, Russia, Ukrain,
bought some molds, bought some metal treatment technology, had some
specialty software developed. I always felt a little guilty about sending
work overseas but it really hit me a while ago when I drove from Indiana to
Pennsylvania. I hadn't seen much of this area up close and personal in 15-20
years. Seeing the vast number of boarded up buildings was like visiting a
grave yard, the faded signs like tomb stones. One scene in particular sticks
in my mind, probably because I was stuck in a traffic detour in Toledo and
had to look at it for an hour from my car. It was a row of a dozen
consequtive boarded shops, a tape measure factory, a dinner (small
resturant), a resturant machinery company and others I don't remember. It
got me thinking, what changed in America to tranform this place from a
moderatly prosperous blue collar area to the slum that it (and hundreds like
it) is now?
I visited a friend who lived near there, his mother lived in his house, she
worked at Wall-Mart. Many years ago she owned her own house and raised her
children working in a television assembly plant. Hard to believe it but,
televisions used to be made in America, some how most people could afford
them (not that they are better off for them) and a lot of people were
employed by these television factories. Now she scans the televisions and
other imported items at the check-out counter at WallMart making just above
minumum wage. Here's the connection. When the televisions were made in
America she and hundreds of coworkers, earned a living wage at the factory.
The factory bought lots of raw materials, fuel, equipment, molds, cars,
insurance, food, paper, and those companies in turn employed many other
companies. Most of these jobs were descent blue collar jobs that could
support a family and a modest house. When the imported televisions made by
slaves (by American standards, not free workers) came to the American market
at discount prices, we all bought them, I don't even think there is an
American made TV anymore. Well, of course the equilibrium of the American
economy was upset. Manufacting companies couldn't compete and support our
standard of living. So the television factory dies, and if that was all,
maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but the hundreds of supporting companies and
the companies that support them and so on also shut down. It's the domino
effect.
You say you want free trade?
There is nothing fair, moral or free about "free trade" with a dictatorial
communist country. It empowers and enables them to flourish and supply our
enemies with weapons.
You say you want fair trade?
When I was in China, almost every shop had Pro E, MasterCAM and a dozen
other softwares all of them boot leg. AutoCAD sells for the same price as
CATIA $5 ($2 if you buy 5 softwares). The same is true in Russia.
I thought it was kind of funny at the time because I had been slimed by some
PTC reps but then I thought of the Mold shops in America that pay full price
for thier software. This really isn't fair. They have no regard or even
comprehension of software or patent or copyright.
You want efficiency?
The fuel of efficiency in China is oppresion, when we import a mold made by
oppressed people, in effect, we import that oppresion to America, the
Chinese government knows this, that's why they subsidize and dump on
specific industries.
Bottom line for me is, if we (or any other country that operates at a trade
deficit) stopped all trade (yes even oil) in five years we would be better
off. Why because it would be reasonable to invest in developing America
again. 15 years ago when I made molds for the first PCs, investment bankers
fought for opportunites to be involved, now you would get laughed out of a
bank just by saying the words "mold shop" .
I don't make molds for other people now, just for my own products. I won't
buy anymore imported molds.
I have this luxury because my patents are in one of the only protected
industries in America , medical devices. This has served the medical
industry very well and this is one of the few places that good blue collar
jobs exist anymore. Since the medical device industry is the current darling
of the investment bankers and it is a protected industry, I think this
protection is a benefit that others should have.
Think of what would happen if the FDA freely allowed imports. The investors
would run away and the reasearch would end and the jobs would vanish.
To me this makes some cheap consumer products seem rather expensive.
Reminds me of the PSA about cocaine.....
I gotta do some coke, so I can do more work, so I do buy more coke, so I can
do more work.
America has bought a lot of coke (cheap products) and now we are working
harder to pay for them with lower paying jobs. What a deal.
Today, I'm not directly affected by this, but I think we are passing-on a
worse America than we recieved.
"Steve Smith" <bage...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:2138eedc.02042...@posting.google.com...
Steve Smith
> Thank you for your well thought out responses.
>
> Short Answer and Long answer:
>
help over the long run. Unless we close our borders completely (and
you said in an earlier post that you didn't want to do that) they
cannot work in the long run. I wish we could go back to the good old
days but we can't. What we had in the US was very special - you know
that from travelling to other countries. Now things are evening out
(even though some of the methods are unsavory). We cannot stop it -
we will have to innovate our way out of it.
Steve
Jon Schmidt
problem solved.
"Steve Smith" <bage...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:2138eedc.02042...@posting.google.com...
Steve Smith
> It is simple to get out of it, change fed policy to devalue the dollar,
> problem solved.
>
>
in the world market. However, if China is really selling some
products for 20 cents on the dollar we'd have to devalue by 80%. I'm
sure that would have some dramatic effect on foreign investments in
this country. Again, I'm against this kind of government intervention
- it's just like passing tarrifs on all imports. Having said that, I
don't know how foreign exchange rates are set. Maybe the dollar is
too expensive and should be adjusted. I don't know. I'd be
interested on hearing more on this from people that are stronger in
economics.
Steve
Jerry Steiger
Steve,
As I said earlier, I'm an engineer, not an economist. But I read a really
fine world news magazine from Britain, "The Economist", that gives me a
little knowledge. Exchange rates are set by the market laws of supply and
demand. There are trillions of dollars exchanged every day. Governments have
only a very feeble ability to control exchange rates with the modest tools
(such as the Fed setting interbank overnight interest rates) normally
available to them. They can totally screw things up if they let things get
really out of hand, say by allowing hyper-inflation to happen, but in the
normal state of affairs, they have only a marginal effect on the psychology
of the investors and consumers.
Jon Schmidt
"Again, I'm against this kind of government intervention it's just like
passing tarrifs on all imports. "
There is no choice about intervention, we already have it, the value of the
dollar is set by the "money supply" as established by the federal reserve
policy. The current high valuation of the dollar is no more or less
intervention than if the fed decided to print more money (lower interest
rates), which increases the supply of the dollar and therefore reducing its
demand and increasing the relative price of imported goods.
To give you an idea of the over valuation of the dollar, when I was in
Russia, I employed 2 people that had physics PHds and cutting edge knowledge
of thin film deposition by plasma radiaition. They asked to be paid $35 a
month, thinking I would never agree to such a high price, when I paid them
$500 a month to insure that they would not be distracted, they thought they
were rich. The same person in America would require 150K yr. You wonder how
could they live on $35 a month? Thier apartment (really a condo because they
own it) was $12 a month for all the utilities. We rode in buses for $0.04
and in taxis for $0.40, they thought I was crazy to spend so much money to
ride in a taxi. I stayed in one of thier condos, they saw a shampoo bottle
with a price sticker on it, the cheap Suave stuff probably about $2.00. They
asked about the price, they were sure that the price was really $0.02 and
wondered why the sticker said $2.00. I bought some gallery quality oil
paintings for $30-$100 and some museum quality paintings for $300. For the
time I was there, I knew what it must be like to be Bill Gates. When I would
go to an ATM to take out the equivelent of $300, it would never have enough
money in it since this was more than would ussually be dispensed in several
days.
So why is the value of the dollar so high? The main reason is the lack of
inflation we have had in the past 25 years. Of course too much inflation is
a bad thing, but not enough relative to the inflation of the countries you
do bussines with is just as bad since it makes American products
unaffordable to other countries.
So, why does the fed want low inflation, there are a few reasons. The first
is of course buying power, because we are too lazy to get off of pertroleum
as our primary fuel source we need to keep the dollar high to keep gasoline
cheap. France will be in a very good position soon because of thier nuclear
power generation capabilies they are developing systems to produce hydrogen
during the low power demand hours and will run thier cars on hydrogen.
Unfortunatly hysterics in America have prevented much use of nuclear power
here. The irony is that burning coal actually releases more radiation to the
air than any nuke plant ever will.
Another reason that the fed keeps the dollar high is that foriegn lobbyists
especially from China pay our piloticains off to do so. The idea that
foriegn countries can lobby and make contributions to our politicians
digusts me. The fact that foriegn countries want the dollar high and higher
is good reason to suppose it is already too high.
There is one more reason relating to what Clinton did with the long-term
bonds.
"Steve Smith" <bage...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:2138eedc.02042...@posting.google.com...
Jon Schmidt
past 25 years the goal has been to keep inflation down and they have
succeded at it. If they wanted a little more inflation, that could have been
done easily.
Also don't forget about bond policy.
"Jerry Steiger" <jer...@AtWorkCom.com> wrote in message
news:aah6r7$a9si5$1...@ID-110347.news.dfncis.de...