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Modelsim ought to be cheaper
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Kevin Neilson
Apr 23, 2013, 4:13:42 PM4/23/13
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Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
Rob Gaddi
Apr 23, 2013, 4:20:52 PM4/23/13
to
On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:13:42 -0700 (PDT)
Kevin Neilson <kevin....@xilinx.com> wrote:
> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
An argument could be made that it's so expensive even with its
Kevin Neilson <kevin....@xilinx.com> wrote:
> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
segfaults because, even with it segfaulting all the time, you were
willing to pay them as much as they asked for it.
--
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order. See above to fix.
rickman
Apr 23, 2013, 6:01:45 PM4/23/13
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On 4/23/2013 4:13 PM, Kevin Neilson wrote:
> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
I am using ActiveHDL which is a competing product, but both are free as
> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
far as I know. I don't buy them, I get them with the vendors free
tools. I guess when you pay for them you get a version that isn't
crippled and runs faster. Most of the stuff I do the simulation doesn't
take so long that this is a problem.
I've never seen the sort of bugs you are talking about. I do remember
that some 10 years ago they had a memory leak that would crash it after
running for some hours. I never saw them fix that problem, it continued
release after release.
I only switched to AHDL because Lattice switched tools. I ordered a
paid version of their tools (at that time they didn't give a simulator)
and between the time I placed the order and the time I received it an
tried to fire it up, it wouldn't license! Seems they switched brands
and I *had* to use AHDL whether I wanted to or not. I ranted and raved
for a bit (that was pretty dirty pool) but in the end I didn't see much
of a difference and like AHDL pretty well. I think they have a trial
version, you might give it a try. I don't see it crashing like you are
saying Modelsim does.
--
Rick
rickman
Apr 23, 2013, 6:02:24 PM4/23/13
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On 4/23/2013 4:20 PM, Rob Gaddi wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:13:42 -0700 (PDT)
> Kevin Neilson<kevin....@xilinx.com> wrote:
>
>> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
>
> An argument could be made that it's so expensive even with its
> segfaults because, even with it segfaulting all the time, you were
> willing to pay them as much as they asked for it.
Yes, you could make that argument... but why bother?
> On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:13:42 -0700 (PDT)
> Kevin Neilson<kevin....@xilinx.com> wrote:
>
>> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
>
> An argument could be made that it's so expensive even with its
> segfaults because, even with it segfaulting all the time, you were
> willing to pay them as much as they asked for it.
--
Rick
HT-Lab
Apr 24, 2013, 3:54:36 AM4/24/13
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On 23/04/2013 21:13, Kevin Neilson wrote:
> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product
Mature product? you do know that simulators are constantly being
> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product
enhanced with new language features, standards and debug capabilities.
The last thing I would call a simulator (or any maintained EDA product)
is mature.
> and yet it segfaults on me all the time.
for writing disastrous code, sorry but I have been using Modelsim since
version 4.7 and yes it does occasional crash but no more than any other
EDA tool I use.
> Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port
> width mismatch) it just core dumps instead,
contact Mentor support. Modelsim create a stack dump in
vsim_stacktrace.vstf when it crashes, include this in your Service
Request. I also find that using the command line "vsim -c" has a better
chance of giving me a verror code.
leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until
> I figure out why it's crashing.
which was released after 10.2a) might also allow you to continue to work
while engineering looks at your core dump.
That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be
> cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
pretty small and as I mentioned earlier standards are being created and
updated all the time which cost money.
Now why is Vivado-HLS crashing again on my code.......
Hans
www.ht-lab.com
RCIngham
Apr 25, 2013, 10:54:37 AM4/25/13
to
>Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults
=
>on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings
=
>or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps
=
>instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out
w=
>hy it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to
=
>be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
>
What version are you running?
>
Which OS?
How much memory has your PC?
Which language are you writing in?
---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.FPGARelated.com
KJ
Apr 25, 2013, 1:10:39 PM4/25/13
to
On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:54:36 AM UTC-4, HT-Lab wrote:
> > On 23/04/2013 21:13, Kevin Neilson wrote: Why is Modelsim so expensive?
> > It is a mature product Mature product?
> you do know that simulators are constantly being enhanced with new language
> features, standards and debug capabilities. The last thing I would call a
> simulator (or any maintained EDA product) is mature.
If that's your definition, then virtually no product would ever be 'mature'.
> > On 23/04/2013 21:13, Kevin Neilson wrote: Why is Modelsim so expensive?
> > It is a mature product Mature product?
> you do know that simulators are constantly being enhanced with new language
> features, standards and debug capabilities. The last thing I would call a
> simulator (or any maintained EDA product) is mature.
> > and yet it segfaults on me all the time.
> Then either you are very unlucky, have a unreliable PC or have a "nack" for
> writing disastrous code, sorry but I have been using Modelsim since version
> 4.7 and yes it does occasional crash but no more than any other EDA tool I
> use.
Kevin Jennings
Theo Markettos
Apr 25, 2013, 3:09:06 PM4/25/13
to
KJ <kkjen...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Don't blame the user. I've seen the same behavior with every single 10.x
> release. At which point I'll write up a service request, Mentor will
> reproduce it and many times I'll have to revert back to version 6.4 which
> for me at least was the last really stable release.
On the subject of Modelsim, how does it relate to Questa SV/AFV?
> Don't blame the user. I've seen the same behavior with every single 10.x
> release. At which point I'll write up a service request, Mentor will
> reproduce it and many times I'll have to revert back to version 6.4 which
> for me at least was the last really stable release.
I've read various things that refer to Questa as if it's Modelsim renamed,
but others that suggest they're different simulators (ie there's a
non-trivial overhead in switching from one to the other). I realise there's
other things called 'Questa', just to make this more confusing.
Currently we're on Modelsim 6.5c and have Questa 10.1d available (but not
installed) - I'm wondering how transparent the upgrade path would be.
Theo
turi...@gmail.com
May 13, 2013, 9:56:17 AM5/13/13
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On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 10:13:42 PM UTC+2, Kevin Neilson wrote:
> That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
I never had too many problems with Modelsim...But all hardware tools and simulators are very expensive. More than what would be logical for their cost. But it is a small market with few competitive tools and since there is lack of options even these high prices are paid...Is there a open alternative that is competitive? That would help the situation a lot. GHDL for example? Has anyone used it? does it fare well compared to other commercial simulators?
> That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
HT-Lab
May 13, 2013, 10:32:46 AM5/13/13
to
language then I would recommend the free OEM version of Modelsim. You
can get it from Altera, Microsemi, Lattice etc. Xilinx Isim is also free
and getting better with every version.
Altera also has a paid for Modelsim AE version which sits just below PE
in terms of speed and capacity, the price in the UK is about a 1000 pounds.
Hans
www.ht-lab.com
Sanjay Parekh
Jun 17, 2013, 3:08:59 PM6/17/13
to
On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:13:42 PM UTC-7, Kevin Neilson wrote:
> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
I use Questa on Windows 7 64 bit on intel based machine for my SystemVerilog designs. I can tell you that I have never seen a coredump lately. Nonetheless, occasionally, the tool would simply exit with a cryptic code during compile, optimization or elaboration stage. At which point I have to file a support request. Sometimes, I would be able to get an idea on the problem - something silly, by turning off the vopt switch at which point I would think why wasn't the tool able to flag this without giving up!
> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
What would be the groups' sentiment if there was a cloud service to use the tool on a timeshare basis?
I can see a win-win scenario for vendors and the developer community.
Kevin Neilson
Jun 18, 2013, 1:06:32 PM6/18/13
to
I discovered one cause (but not all) of the coredumps I experience. If I had mismatched port widths in a VHDL instantiation, I'll often have coredumps. There is no indication of what is wrong, but now I know what to look for in some cases. I also suffer all kinds of problems when I try to use unconstrained outputs based on unconstrained inputs, to the point where I just have to avoid that feature of VHDL.
I think it'd be great to have a cloud service you could use if you didn't need to use it that often, but I don't know if that would be profitable for Mentor.
I think it'd be great to have a cloud service you could use if you didn't need to use it that often, but I don't know if that would be profitable for Mentor.
Sanjay Parekh
Jun 19, 2013, 2:13:52 PM6/19/13
to
On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:06:32 AM UTC-7, Kevin Neilson wrote:
> I discovered one cause (but not all) of the coredumps I experience. If I had mismatched port widths in a VHDL instantiation, I'll often have coredumps. There is no indication of what is wrong, but now I know what to look for in some cases. I also suffer all kinds of problems when I try to use unconstrained outputs based on unconstrained inputs, to the point where I just have to avoid that feature of VHDL.
>
>
>
> I think it'd be great to have a cloud service you could use if you didn't need to use it that often, but I don't know if that would be profitable for Mentor.
In my case, the tool choked miserably whenever I misinterpreted the systemverilog spec and hooked up interfaces incorrectly.
> I discovered one cause (but not all) of the coredumps I experience. If I had mismatched port widths in a VHDL instantiation, I'll often have coredumps. There is no indication of what is wrong, but now I know what to look for in some cases. I also suffer all kinds of problems when I try to use unconstrained outputs based on unconstrained inputs, to the point where I just have to avoid that feature of VHDL.
>
>
>
> I think it'd be great to have a cloud service you could use if you didn't need to use it that often, but I don't know if that would be profitable for Mentor.
In my opinion Mentor can use the cloud platform quite creatively and make a business out of the unmet need which is allowing engineers to build myriad pieces of ip that serve niche areas without going through a vetting process to justify a big budget and therefore a big market.
And think of the community schools that generally offer programs in c programming, etc. Why not programs in verification, linting, scripting, simple designs, etc.? More side opportunities for consultants/senior engineers as trainers, more opportunities for the students to learn online. E.g. If coursera/udemy can offer software courses, why not hardware courses as well? And think of kickstarter/indiegogo which can fund those hardware projects.
Enough said. I don't mean to say that cost of the tools is the only thing that is preventing massive innovation in the hardware development. But I feel it is an important part as it limits the creative ability of the people who can make a difference.
Sanjay Parekh
Jun 20, 2013, 10:10:59 AM6/20/13
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HT-Lab
Jun 20, 2013, 11:33:52 AM6/20/13
to
On 20/06/2013 15:10, Sanjay Parekh wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:13:52 AM UTC-7, Sanjay Parekh wrote:
>> On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:06:32 AM UTC-7, Kevin Neilson wrote:
..
> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:13:52 AM UTC-7, Sanjay Parekh wrote:
>> On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:06:32 AM UTC-7, Kevin Neilson wrote:
>>
>>> I think it'd be great to have a cloud service you could use if you didn't need to use it that often, but I don't know if that would be profitable for Mentor.
..
>>> I think it'd be great to have a cloud service you could use if you didn't need to use it that often, but I don't know if that would be profitable for Mentor.
> Interesting read today if you can see as I do the opportunities for cloud based tools.. http://gigaom.com/2013/06/19/open-compute-is-bringing-the-maker-movement-to-the-enterprise/?utm_source=General+Users&utm_campaign=3472bd888e-c%3Atec%2Capl+d%3A06-20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1dd83065c6-3472bd888e-98983131
>
I don't think cloud EDA services will happen soon for the simple reason
>
that companies are generally not happy to splatter their highly valuable
IP over the internet.
You have an additional problem that the servers are normally not located
in your country which means you have to fight a foreign court system if
something goes wrong (server hacked, IP theft, etc).
Hans
www.ht-lab.com
Eric Wallin
Jun 20, 2013, 1:13:59 PM6/20/13
to
On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:13:42 PM UTC-4, Kevin Neilson wrote:
> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
The simulator in Quartus is nice and has a "functional simulation" mode that makes the compile fairly trivial and quick. Altera unfortunately unbundled it from the main GUI after 9.2SP2 and turned into an ugly rickety Tcl based unintegrated monstrosity. At the time the rep told me "no one uses it".
> Why is Modelsim so expensive? It is a mature product and yet it segfaults on me all the time. Constantly. Often, when it ought to give me warnings or errors (such as when there is a port width mismatch) it just core dumps instead, leaving me to comment out lines one at a time until I figure out why it's crashing. That's my rant. It's still pretty decent, but ought to be cheaper if it's going to coredump like freeware.
Don't mind me, I'm a just a nobody.
Kevin Neilson
Jun 20, 2013, 8:34:54 PM6/20/13
to
I'd really like to make some cores in my spare time, but the revenues would be pretty small, and there is no way it would be worthwhile to buy Synplify and Modelsim licenses for such a small endeavor. I don't know exactly what that would cost, but I'm sure it's tens of thousands. It'd be great if I use the tools online for a few hours here and there and just pay for that. Even if I couldn't use the GUI--if I could just get an EDIF and .srr file back--that would be useful.
I guess I could use Icarus or something, but I'm sure it's not going to parse the nice SysVerilog / VHDL 2008 code I write, and who wants to buy a core that comes with an Icarus project file?
I guess I could use Icarus or something, but I'm sure it's not going to parse the nice SysVerilog / VHDL 2008 code I write, and who wants to buy a core that comes with an Icarus project file?
rickman
Jun 22, 2013, 1:03:18 AM6/22/13
to
On 6/20/2013 8:34 PM, Kevin Neilson wrote:
> I'd really like to make some cores in my spare time, but the revenues would be pretty small, and there is no way it would be worthwhile to buy Synplify and Modelsim licenses for such a small endeavor. I don't know exactly what that would cost, but I'm sure it's tens of thousands. It'd be great if I use the tools online for a few hours here and there and just pay for that.. Even if I couldn't use the GUI--if I could just get an EDIF and .srr file back--that would be useful.
I know Modelsim isn't that high, or at least it wasn't some 5 years ago.
I think I was quoted $5k give or take. But then it is another $1k per
year maintenance. The point is the company has to have a given level of
revenue and even if they adopt a per use based pricing structure, they
would have to charge pretty steeply for each use to get that same level
of revenue.
The only way it could become less expensive is if they ended up with a
lot more sales. I'm sure they have looked at it and found the "sweet
spot" for pricing maximizing their profit. After all, that is what it
is about.
> I guess I could use Icarus or something, but I'm sure it's not going to parse the nice SysVerilog / VHDL 2008 code I write, and who wants to buy a core that comes with an Icarus project file?
Why can't you use the free versions of the tools provided by the FPGA
vendors? You get Active-HDL from Lattice, i think Xilinx has their own
simulator and I don't know what Altera offers. What does Microsemi
offer these days since they bought Actel?
--
Rick
> I'd really like to make some cores in my spare time, but the revenues would be pretty small, and there is no way it would be worthwhile to buy Synplify and Modelsim licenses for such a small endeavor. I don't know exactly what that would cost, but I'm sure it's tens of thousands. It'd be great if I use the tools online for a few hours here and there and just pay for that.. Even if I couldn't use the GUI--if I could just get an EDIF and .srr file back--that would be useful.
I know Modelsim isn't that high, or at least it wasn't some 5 years ago.
I think I was quoted $5k give or take. But then it is another $1k per
year maintenance. The point is the company has to have a given level of
revenue and even if they adopt a per use based pricing structure, they
would have to charge pretty steeply for each use to get that same level
of revenue.
The only way it could become less expensive is if they ended up with a
lot more sales. I'm sure they have looked at it and found the "sweet
spot" for pricing maximizing their profit. After all, that is what it
is about.
> I guess I could use Icarus or something, but I'm sure it's not going to parse the nice SysVerilog / VHDL 2008 code I write, and who wants to buy a core that comes with an Icarus project file?
vendors? You get Active-HDL from Lattice, i think Xilinx has their own
simulator and I don't know what Altera offers. What does Microsemi
offer these days since they bought Actel?
--
Rick
Alan Fitch
Jun 22, 2013, 5:55:29 AM6/22/13
to
of Quartus), and Modelsim Altera Starter Edition (completely free).
Obviously they have limited capacity compared to the full edition of
Modelsim - but they do have a surprising range of language support,
include the design features of SystemVerilog.
There is a "cloud" version of Aldec Riviera - I don't know how much it
costs. See
http://www.aldec.com/en/solutions/functional_verification/aldec_cloud
Microsemi Libero SoC comes with a version of Modelsim, and of Synplify.
regards
Alan
--
Alan Fitch
Sanjay Parekh
Jun 24, 2013, 5:08:01 PM6/24/13
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