XDL Tools wiki site
Phil Tomson
I've set up a wiki space for discussion of ideas for an open source XDL tool
suite. For those not familiar with wikis, they are collaborative web spaces
that can be edited by anyone (for now it is editable by anyone; if there are
problems we can restrict edit access to approved authors) or by a
select set of individuals. They're used quite commonly for software projects
now as they are great for discussion of features, todo lists, idea boards, etc.
If you had tools that could parse and programatically generate XDL how would
you use them? Some suggestions have been made in other recent threads here on
comp.arch.fpga, now let's collect those ideas in the wikispace that I've setup
here:
http://thoughtfiz.stikipad.com/XDL_Tools/
There is a Feature Request page you'll see on the home page. You can go to
that page and edit it or you can add comments to any page by clicking on the
'Discuss' link at the right hand side of the page.
No code has yet been written. The idea here is to try to collect some
ideas to see what people would want to use XDL for and then, since time is
limited, determine what would give us the most 'bang for the buck' (ie. what
might be the most useful features that can be achieved with a reasonable amount of
programming effort).
Oh, and I've also setup a page there for discussion of LegalIssues for those
who are legally inclined ;-)
Phil
Brian Drummond
>
>I've set up a wiki space for discussion of ideas for an open source XDL tool
>suite. For those not familiar with wikis, they are collaborative web spaces
>that can be edited by anyone (for now it is editable by anyone; if there are
>problems we can restrict edit access to approved authors) or by a
>select set of individuals. They're used quite commonly for software projects
>now as they are great for discussion of features, todo lists, idea boards, etc.
>
>If you had tools that could parse and programatically generate XDL how would
>you use them? Some suggestions have been made in other recent threads here on
>comp.arch.fpga, now let's collect those ideas in the wikispace that I've setup
>here:
>http://thoughtfiz.stikipad.com/XDL_Tools/
Thanks Phil...
ummm...
is there any way to access it?
it keeps asking me to login (which I don't mind, except that I don't
have an account, and there's no "register" button :-)
>There is a Feature Request page you'll see on the home page. You can go to
>that page and edit it or you can add comments to any page by clicking on the
>'Discuss' link at the right hand side of the page.
well that's one "feature request" but you'll forgive me for not posting
it in the right place :-)
- Brian
(who is almost sorry for "pushing" XDL having seen what the discussion
degenerated into)
Antti Lukats
news:bihpt1t46dm7afskb...@4ax.com...
Hi Brian,
agree 'degenerated' is a mild word for whats happened - XDL has been around
for pretty long time and if those interested in the use of XDL have not done
so far, well that is not the fault of Xilinx (and its license policy).
hum, as of the Phil's setup thing, it looked weird that someone is password
login authorization protecting websites about some Open-Source discussion.
At first I did not want to register at all, then did come back determined to
register, but failed to register completly as there seems to be no way to
access the pages at all :(
Antti Lukats
http://help.xilant.com/XDL:Tools
Phil Tomson
Antti,
As I mentioned in the post in reply to Brian, the wiki is hosted by
http://stikipad.com - they let you host one wiki for free. I think there is a
bug in their system that does not allow me to make the wiki viewable to
everyone. If you go to http://stikipad.com you can sign up for an account and
then you can view the wiki. Hopefully this problem will be addressed soon so
that you won't have to sign up.
Phil
Phil Tomson
Brian Drummond <br...@shapes.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 29 Jan 2006 03:37:49 GMT, pt...@aracnet.com (Phil Tomson) wrote:
>
>>
>>I've set up a wiki space for discussion of ideas for an open source XDL tool
>>suite. For those not familiar with wikis, they are collaborative web spaces
>>that can be edited by anyone (for now it is editable by anyone; if there are
>>problems we can restrict edit access to approved authors) or by a
>>select set of individuals. They're used quite commonly for software projects
>>now as they are great for discussion of features, todo lists, idea boards, etc.
>>
>>If you had tools that could parse and programatically generate XDL how would
>>you use them? Some suggestions have been made in other recent threads here on
>>comp.arch.fpga, now let's collect those ideas in the wikispace that I've setup
>>here:
>>http://thoughtfiz.stikipad.com/XDL_Tools/
>
>Thanks Phil...
>
>ummm...
>
>is there any way to access it?
>
>it keeps asking me to login (which I don't mind, except that I don't
>have an account, and there's no "register" button :-)
It appears to be a bug at stikipad (it's a fairly new service). I keep tryinng
to edit the configuration so that the wiki is viewable by anyone, but it keeps
reverting back to 'viewable by authors only' mode. I sent an email to support.
In the meantime, you could become an author by getting an account at stikipad:
http://stikipad.com
Then you'd be able to log in. (BTW: it's a pretty cool service, if you sign up
you get one free wiki)
>
>>There is a Feature Request page you'll see on the home page. You can go to
>>that page and edit it or you can add comments to any page by clicking on the
>>'Discuss' link at the right hand side of the page.
>
>well that's one "feature request" but you'll forgive me for not posting
>it in the right place :-)
>
>- Brian
>(who is almost sorry for "pushing" XDL having seen what the discussion
>degenerated into)
No problem. Definitely looking forward to your input.
Phil
Phil Tomson
Antti,
It seems you already have a wiki with an entry for XDL tools, can we use it if
we can't get the stikipad wiki to be publicly viewable?
Phil
Phil Tomson
OK, I just got the word from stikipad: it turns out that they weren't very
clear in the setup that you can only have a publicly available wiki if you pay
$4.95/month. Otherwise you can have other people sign up as authors at
stickipad.com. So, now I'm not sure if the stikipad wiki is going to be all
that useful... $4.95 isn't all that much, but I'd rather look into some
alternatives where I could host all my web projects (not just a wiki) for about
the same price.
Phil
Antti Lukats
news:drk77...@enews3.newsguy.com...
yes, of course.
--
Antti Lukats
http://www.xilant.com
fpga...@yahoo.com
Phil Tomson wrote:
> I've set up a wiki space for discussion of ideas for an open source XDL tool
> suite. For those not familiar with wikis, they are collaborative web spaces
> that can be edited by anyone (for now it is editable by anyone; if there are
> problems we can restrict edit access to approved authors) or by a
> select set of individuals. They're used quite commonly for software projects
> now as they are great for discussion of features, todo lists, idea boards, etc.
Well Austin just clearified XDL's use:
"XDL and related info being a public use interface to ISE outside of
NDA
restrictions" is clearly prohibited.
Which basically includes any public discussion of XDL and open source
access
to XDL.
Austin Lesea
If you desire an opinion, please contact our legal group.
John's email to you is incomplete. Go read my posting, and make your
own decision. Or better yet, contact our legal department,
Austin
fpga...@yahoo.com
What did I miss Austin? .... the EULA NDA terms and your statement
clearly mean personal use only, disclosure in public discussions can
not assume the other members are under the same NDA terms, and you have
been clear that no open source access exists.
That leaves limited EDIF and XNF access to open source tools which
produce net lists for Xilinx ISE.
Phil Tomson
Yeah, that's the plan at this point.
As is with most everything related to law, the more that is said, the muddier
things get ;-)
Phil
Austin Lesea
If you create a XDL from using Xilinx tools, then the license says that
the XDL must be used to program a Xilinx device, and that you are
prevented from doing any reverse engineering, disclosure of IP, etc.
Nothing would prevent you from writing a parser that prepared a nice
usage report for display, however.
Or, if you use an XDL that you create, and then put it back into a
Xilinx tool, the same license restrictions apply.
I am not sure, but I don't see any other uses of XDL covered by the
agreement. It is, after all, just an ASCII format of connections.
Why anyone would use it, and not use our tools, I wouldn't know.
They could just as well use YADL (yet another design language - I have
no copyrights, or trademarks, so I make this acronym freely available to
all).
One case I see now is that you create a tool to convert something (like
c) into XDL. Then someone else uses our tools to create bitstreams.
Sounds good to me! But: only
If you (and they) didn't reveal anything about our tools, IP, etc.
And you and they never used our software to develop your tool. Or to
test our tool (both of which would be a violation of the agreement). Or
to reverse engineer our software or hardware.
Then we get bitstreams (which are covered by the use agreement from the
person who used the generated XDL from your tool to push through our
tool) which sells more of our silicon.
Again, I am no lawyer, so at this point, I am just blathering on with my
own opinions.
Austin
fpga...@yahoo.com
Austin Lesea wrote:
> Nothing would prevent you from writing a parser that prepared a nice
> usage report for display, however.
True ... if the format were public outside ISE, and the related EULA
NDA.
So, in practice today, not possible ...
> Or, if you use an XDL that you create, and then put it back into a
> Xilinx tool, the same license restrictions apply.
See above, without a public description of XDL, then you have to use
ISE tools to obtain it ... info that is again EULA NDA locked.
> I am not sure, but I don't see any other uses of XDL covered by the
> agreement. It is, after all, just an ASCII format of connections.
Just a proprietary ASCII format of connections until publicly
disclosed.
Once the format/syntax is publicly available. Then to use it you need
to
know the names of the Xilinx objects that you can instantiate, and what
the arguments are for those objects (pin names and functions).
Which again, is only documented inside ISE subject to EULA NDA terms.
cs_po...@hotmail.com
> John,
>
> If you create a XDL from using Xilinx tools, then the license says that
> the XDL must be used to program a Xilinx device, and that you are
> prevented from doing any reverse engineering, disclosure of IP, etc.
>
> Nothing would prevent you from writing a parser that prepared a nice
> usage report for display, however.
Since you start out by contradicting yourself, it's really hard to
figure out what you mean.
fpga...@yahoo.com
Austin Lesea wrote:
> One case I see now is that you create a tool to convert something (like
> c) into XDL. Then someone else uses our tools to create bitstreams.
>
> Sounds good to me! But: only
>
> If you (and they) didn't reveal anything about our tools, IP, etc.
Without the equiv public data found in the XNF specification ... file
format
and object definitions ... it's not possible.
Austin Lesea
I see. Seems we never even disclosed the basics of the XDL format. I
had thought that we had disclosed its construction, and structure.
Well then. Looks like XDL is off limits, too.
Now that we have that understood, perhaps we can retire this entire
thread and move onto something else?
Austin
fpga...@yahoo.com
Sure ... I think we have more than hashed this to death :(
It's probably better at this point to lobby it as a business decision
with
sales/marketing and real customers.