Cichlid-semantics challenge
Jorn Barger
about a small fish called a cichlid that cares for its young
by 'mouth-brooding'-- the male holds the whole brood in his mouth
to protect them.
Lorenz (I think accidentally) tempted such a male with a tasty
morsel, and watched to see how it would reconcile its food-
instinct with its parenting-instinct. He claims it had to
_think_ for a moment before spitting out the brood, gobbling
the morsel, and then resuming his fatherly duty...
I propose this level of planning as an unreached (yes?)
milestone for the alife community, and I think the details of
the actual, implemented-by-nature knowledge-representation that
embodies it should provide a new level of semantic insight as
well.
Glen M. Sizemore
GS: There are many sorts of simple behavioral
processes that should be examined (along with the
neurobiology) for potential simulation. If you think,
however, that this is an example of "planning," (which
does, at least, exist in acculturated humans) and
"knowledge representation" (aaargh! - this is simply
nonsesne!) Then you will get nowhere.
One thing is true, though, looking at the behavior of
nonhuman organisms is the key to understanding
"language," but you won't find the answer in "instincts."
jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote in message
Jorn Barger
> GS: There are many sorts of simple behavioral
> processes that should be examined (along with the
> neurobiology) for potential simulation. If you think,
> however, that this is an example of "planning," (which
> does, at least, exist in acculturated humans) and
> "knowledge representation" (aaargh! - this is simply
> nonsesne!) Then you will get nowhere.
Wrt planning, it could already be simulated with general-
purpose planners, I'm pretty sure. But since a cichlid
probably isn't working with a general-purpose planner,
I'm more interested in Braitenberg-Vehicles' style
approaches.
Wrt knowledge-representation, I think that phrase has
been narrowed unnecessarily, and absolutely _should_
be used even for Braitenberg-Vehicles style AI. See eg
my (very, very broad) timeline of knowledge-representation:
Glen M. Sizemore
jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote in message news:<16e613ec.03030...@posting.google.com>...
Jorn Barger
> Your reply is too full of jargon and unexamined assumptions to be
> meaningful.
Yo head's so fat, I bet yo mama call you 'fathead'!
It's hard to break down these concepts into language simple enough
for you and yo mama, but here's a sincere try.
> > Wrt planning, it could already be simulated with general-
> > purpose planners, I'm pretty sure. But since a cichlid
> > probably isn't working with a general-purpose planner,
> > I'm more interested in Braitenberg-Vehicles' style
> > approaches.
Wrt = With regard to
general-purpose planner: I was thinking of SOAR, though I'm
vague on its details, so any system that has a repertoire of
'moves' it can test in different combinations, like a chess
program
B-V: http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~wiseman/vehicles/
> > Wrt knowledge-representation, I think that phrase has
> > been narrowed unnecessarily, and absolutely _should_
> > be used even for Braitenberg-Vehicles style AI. See eg
> > my (very, very broad) timeline of knowledge-representation:
> > http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/timeline1.html
knowledge-representation (narrow): expert-system style
statements written using predicate calculus
knowledge-represenation (broad): representing knowledge,
any old way
Glen M. Sizemore
trying to say, but she always tried to talk with her
mouth full. Other than that, the only comment I have is
that you are an idiot.
Yo daddy,
Glen
jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote in message news:<16e613ec.03030...@posting.google.com>...
Jorn Barger
I looked it up: (KSR p42)
"I once saw a jewel fish... perform a deed which absolutely
astonished me. I came, late one evening, into the laboratory.
It was already dusk and I wished hurriedly to feed a few
fishes which had not received anything to eat that day;
amongst them was a pair of jewel fishes who were tending
their young. As I approached the container, I saw that most
of of the young were already in the nesting hollow over
which the mother was hovering. She refused to come for the
food when I threw pieces of earthworm into the tank. The
father, however, who, in great excitement, was dashing
backwards and forwards searching for truants, allowed
himself to be diverted from his duty by a nice hind-end of
earthworm (for some unknown reason this end is preferred by
all worm-eaters to the front one). He swam up and seized
the worm, but, owing to its size, was unable to swallow it.
As he was in the act of chewing this mouthful, he saw a baby
fish swimming by itself across the tank; he started as though
stung, raced after the baby and took it into his already
filled mouth. It was a thrilling moment. The fish had in
its mouth two different things of which one must go into the
stomach and the other into the nest. What would he do?
I must confess that, at that moment, I would not have given
twopence for the life of that tiny jewel fish. But wonderful
what really happened! The fish stood stock still with full
cheeks, but he did not chew. >If ever I have seen a fish
think, it was in that moment!< What a truly remarkable thing
that a fish can find itself in a genuine conflicting
situation and, in this case, behave exactly as a human
would; that is to say, it stops, blocked in all directions,
and can go neither forward nor backward. For many seconds
the father jewel fish stood riveted and one could almost see
how his feeling were working. Then he solved the conflict
in a way for which one was bound to feel admiration: he spat
out the whole contents of his mouth: the worm fell to the
bottom, and the little jewel fish [due to the reflex that
contracts its swim-bladder] did the same. Then the father
turned resolutely to the worm and ate it up, without haste
but all the time with one eye on the child which 'obediently'
lay on the bottom beneath him. When he had finished, he
inhaled the baby and carried it home to its mother.
Some students, who had witnessed the whole scene, started as
one man to applaud."
ian glendinning
and the mouth parenting behaviour, whilst going about routine business
of staying alive, is easy to witness in your own home.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but why is the feat seen as
particularly significant say compared to a bird holding a nut in one
claw and pecking it open without pecking its foot or falling off its
perch - did I mention the bird was standing on a fish ? :-)
Seriously though, this mix of mental and physical skills is surely
part of a great spectrum in the animal world. Are you suggesting it
includes some level of reflective consciousness or simply that it is a
case of specific interest ?
ian glendinning
respond even when I'm the only sign of intelligent life (except Jim) ?
Talk about artificial stupididy.
Suspend disbelief at some point or radiate and fade away.
(Jorn, I KNOW you and George are one and the same)