[CoLoCo] Webmin???

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Kevin Fries

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Apr 2, 2008, 4:13:05 PM4/2/08
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Didn't webmin used to exist in the repos?

I can't seem to find it any longer, and so I have been installing it
allot from the webmin website. Does anyone here know if there is a
reason it is not in the repos?

thx

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Kevin Fries
Senior Linux Engineer
Computer and Communications Technology, Inc
A Division of Japan Communications Inc.

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Joey Stanford

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Apr 2, 2008, 4:16:32 PM4/2/08
to Ubuntu Colorado Local Community Team
was taken out for some reason I suspect. Don't know. I've been
installing it by hand lately from the webmin page.

Jeremy Schroeder

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Apr 2, 2008, 4:36:06 PM4/2/08
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I think the one in the repo's was really old, and in the forums and on the interwebs its suggested to install from webmin's site.

Jeremy

PS I love webmin!

Neal McBurnett

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Apr 2, 2008, 5:19:01 PM4/2/08
to Ubuntu Colorado Local Community Team
Webmin has not been in any Ubuntu release since at least dapper:

http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=webmin&searchon=names&suite=all&section=all

The server team has run into many problem with webmin, as ubotu will
tell you:

(11:11:53 AM) nealmcb: !webmin

ubotu: webmin is no longer supported in Debian and Ubuntu. It is not
compatible with the way that Ubuntu packages handle configuration
files, and is likely to cause unexpected issues with your system. See
!ebox instead.

(11:11:53 AM) nealmcb: !ebox

ubotu: ebox is a web-based GUI interface for administering a server. It is designed to work with Ubuntu/Debian style configuration management. See the plans for Hardy at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EboxSpec

webmin really doesn't understand debian systems and can change
your config files in ways that make upgrading, etc, pretty dicey.

Ebox in gutsy is not recommended, but should be much better in hardy.
Testing very much welcomed!!!

Neal McBurnett http://mcburnett.org/neal/


On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 10:36:06AM -0600, Jeremy Schroeder wrote:
> I think the one in the repo's was really old, and in the forums and on the
> interwebs its suggested to install from webmin's site.
>
> Jeremy
>
> PS I love webmin!
>
> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Joey Stanford <jo...@canonical.com> wrote:
>
> was taken out for some reason I suspect. Don't know. I've been
> installing it by hand lately from the webmin page.
>
> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Kevin Fries <kfr...@cctus.com> wrote:
> > Didn't webmin used to exist in the repos?
> >
> > I can't seem to find it any longer, and so I have been installing it
> > allot from the webmin website. Does anyone here know if there is a
> > reason it is not in the repos?

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Kevin Fries

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Apr 2, 2008, 7:46:52 PM4/2/08
to Ubuntu Colorado Local Community Team
ahh nuts, here we go again.

Linux is supposed to be about choice, but the Ubuntu distro is more and
more showing that its just not industrial strength. ebox does not have
the industry wide support that webmin has. Funny thing is that I often
use webmin only for firewall configuration. And, ebox does not appear
to support shorewall, or any other standard firewall configuration
utility.

Again, Linux is supposed to be about choice, but more and more Ubuntu is
removing/limiting perfectly good packages and I am being told what to
run (VMWare and VBox last week, Webmin this week). I almost feel like I
have been advocating the Linux worlds version of Microsoft (we will tell
you what email server to run, we will tell you what database to run,
etc, trust us, we know best).

Oh well, I guess two more servers need to be schedule for conversion to
CentOS.

Kevin Fries

Kevin Fries
Senior Linux Engineer
Computer and Communications Technology, Inc
A Division of Japan Communications Inc.

--

TC

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Apr 2, 2008, 8:09:48 PM4/2/08
to Ubuntu Colorado Local Community Team
No one is telling you what to run. People are <i>choosing</i> not to
put things into the repositories that you want.

You could always choose to step up to the plate and choose to package,
support, and maintain them in the universe repository.

It's all about the choices, right?

At least you don't have to do a bootstrap compile of gcc, ah never mind,
you probably don't know what that is.

--

Neal McBurnett

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Apr 2, 2008, 8:16:52 PM4/2/08
to Ubuntu Colorado Local Community Team
On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 01:46:52PM -0600, Kevin Fries wrote:
> ahh nuts, here we go again.
>
> Linux is supposed to be about choice, but the Ubuntu distro is more and
> more showing that its just not industrial strength. ebox does not have
> the industry wide support that webmin has. Funny thing is that I often
> use webmin only for firewall configuration. And, ebox does not appear
> to support shorewall, or any other standard firewall configuration
> utility.

With webmin, I think the issue is complicated by underlying approaches
of different distros.

An advantage of the debian/ubuntu packaging system is unusually smooth
upgrades, due in part to the standards on how the packages deal with
configuration files in the debian policy and deb-conf programs.
RPM/yum is far less mature in this area, last I heard.

If a package like webmin changes config files in such a way that it
breaks upgrades, it doesn't surprise me that the package isn't
supported. That doesn't mean the package can't be fixed, though I
guess it is hard. I don't know the details, but please help if you
can.

> Again, Linux is supposed to be about choice, but more and more Ubuntu is
> removing/limiting perfectly good packages and I am being told what to
> run (VMWare and VBox last week, Webmin this week).

Please stop this misinformation. As we carefully explained in the
last conversation, nothing about VMWare is being removed or limited by
Ubuntu. There is a new free vmware tools package in Hardy, and as
soon as VMWare gets their proprietary stuff working and supported it
will be in the Partner repository. And of course we'd welcome them
open-sourcing it.... Similarly for VBox.

> I almost feel like I
> have been advocating the Linux worlds version of Microsoft (we will tell
> you what email server to run, we will tell you what database to run,
> etc, trust us, we know best).

More total nonsense. Ubuntu offers way more packages than CentOS, And
comparing this to Microsoft - huh....

Neal McBurnett http://mcburnett.org/neal/

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Paul Hummer

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Apr 2, 2008, 8:20:53 PM4/2/08
to Ubuntu Colorado Local Community Team
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


> Linux is supposed to be about choice, but the Ubuntu distro is more
> and more showing that its just not industrial strength. ebox does
> not have the industry wide support that webmin has. Funny thing is
> that I often use webmin only for firewall configuration. And, ebox
> does not appear to support shorewall, or any other standard
> firewall configuration utility.

I see your linux card with all your choices, and play my open source
card, with the "community" add-on. --:-) The community is greater than
linux, greater than webmin/ebox, greater than Richard Stallman. The
community got together and dropped the package. If the community
wants it back (and you are indeed part of the community), you're
welcome to contribute the package to universe.

Mark Shuttleworth didn't come down and say "Thou shalt have no
webmin" Some people got together and asked if anyone would miss
webmin, and no one around at the time did. That doesn't mean that it
can't be added in later.


> Oh well, I guess two more servers need to be schedule for
> conversion to CentOS

Well, you'll get to have the same issues with CentOS in a few months.
Trust me, I've played this Chutes and Ladders game.

Thanks,
Paul

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Kevin Fries

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Apr 2, 2008, 9:43:01 PM4/2/08
to Ubuntu Colorado Local Community Team

On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 13:16 -0700, Neal McBurnett wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 01:46:52PM -0600, Kevin Fries wrote:
> > ahh nuts, here we go again.
> >
> > Linux is supposed to be about choice, but the Ubuntu distro is more and
> > more showing that its just not industrial strength. ebox does not have
> > the industry wide support that webmin has. Funny thing is that I often
> > use webmin only for firewall configuration. And, ebox does not appear
> > to support shorewall, or any other standard firewall configuration
> > utility.
>
> With webmin, I think the issue is complicated by underlying approaches
> of different distros.

The webmin team has always been sensitive to this. The solution is to
work within that community, and keep tools uniform. One of the well
deserved knocks that the Windows/Mac community lumps on Linux is that
their is too many distros. While I don't think the number of distros is
a problem, as long as the basic infrastructure and management tools
remain consistent. Sometimes Linux does a good job of that (take
openssl or openldap as examples... everyone just uses or extends a
common library), this situation is an example of where Linux does this
very poorly. Rather than working with Webmin to fix whatever your
issues are, you are working on a different tool, making you less
consistent with RedHat, CentOS, etc (for the record, this is my key
dislike of Suse and Yast).

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a better tool than Webmin come
along. But, eBox is too proprietary to their own way, without enough
3rd party support. Its is also too simplistic for advanced
configuration.

Personally, I get the simplistic controls on desktops, but not on
servers. I think that is why I am getting so upset with Ubuntu lately.
The stuff I love on the desktop, is driving me nuts on the server.
Servers need not be setup by amateurs, and therefore the level of hand
holding is too Microsof-ish or Apple-ish for my taste. I expect the
interface to be a little more raw and basic on a server. Take a look at
power tools as an analogy... the ones built for Joe public do not allow
for the level of granular control that tools built for professionals
have. The Ubuntu community is trying to do for the server, what it did
for the desktop, and at least in my opinion, its a dangerous thing.
Servers in the home are probably quite easily set up with a basic
script, and then even eBox is over kill. Servers built for business,
need that extended level of granular control. I love the Ubuntu desktop
because of its smart defaults... I guess I am getting upset with the
server stuff because I feel the Ubuntu community is restricting my level
of control. Again, love it on the desktop, frustrated with it on the
server.

> An advantage of the debian/ubuntu packaging system is unusually smooth
> upgrades, due in part to the standards on how the packages deal with
> configuration files in the debian policy and deb-conf programs.
> RPM/yum is far less mature in this area, last I heard.

The biggest difference I have noticed between the two is DPKG's abaility
to interact with the user. RPM/Yum is very little more than a
standardized tgz file with some minimal scripting built in. I know the
problem that is being talked about and can give you an example. When
you install MySQL server, it will stop and request an admin password
from the end user. In my opinion, Synaptic does a poor job of
supporting this also, but it does handle it. Yum will not. So no root
password is set.

In synaptic, the install will appear to stall. Open the details, and
you will get a terminal where you can respond to the prompts. Of course
if you did this from a terminal with apt-get, it would use ncurses to
prompt you. The question is how would you handle this in webmin. The
default behavior in webmin is to pipe the output inside <pre> tags. So,
it is not giving you this terminal. This can leave packages installed
but not configured.

Debian based systems also uses this same mechanism to reconfigure
packages (dpkg-reconfigure, update-alternatives, etc). My argument is
not with the problem, but the solution. Webmin has kinda become a
standard by default. So accept that, and work with the software install
package to handle package reconfiguration. Don't abandon what everyone
already knows and go in a different direction. Keeping to the same web
based admin tool as other distros, allows transfer of knowledge between
distros to be faster, and allows Linux to grow at a faster pace.

> If a package like webmin changes config files in such a way that it
> breaks upgrades, it doesn't surprise me that the package isn't
> supported. That doesn't mean the package can't be fixed, though I
> guess it is hard. I don't know the details, but please help if you
> can.

That is a bogus argument. Not even Debian is trying to claim that one.
Webmin was supported up until Etch, and the guy that was maintaining it
did not want to do it any longer. The argument was, "if somebody really
wants this, resubmit it and you can then manage it... I'm done". But
the Debian community (a distro I still use quite a bit, and love) tend
to be the hard core of the Linux community, the "ssh in and use vi you
sissy" kind of admins. For the most part, that is the type of admin I
am, but I also need to deal with "Windows mostly, Linux occasionally"
subs under me, and so Webmin is a god-send. As such, it is not as
surprising to me that nobody picked up the banner over there. Ubuntu is
much more concerned with user interface issues, so I am surprised it was
not picked up on this side.

It does not wrongly configure any package I have ever seen, and I use it
allot. What it will do is not configure a package because of the
reasons I showed above. Again, work with the standard tool to fix the
problem, don't do in a different direction.

--
Kevin Fries
Senior Linux Engineer
Computer and Communications Technology, Inc
A Division of Japan Communications Inc.

--

Soren Hansen

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Apr 2, 2008, 10:09:32 PM4/2/08
to ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.com
On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 01:46:52PM -0600, Kevin Fries wrote:
> ahh nuts, here we go again.

Indeed.

> Linux is supposed to be about choice, but the Ubuntu distro is more
> and more showing that its just not industrial strength. ebox does not
> have the industry wide support that webmin has.

If packages cause more harm than they do good, Ubuntu has a sound policy
of removing them. Shipping any version of webmin in our repositories
will create the illusion that its use is even remotely supported.

> Again, Linux is supposed to be about choice, but more and more Ubuntu
> is removing/limiting perfectly good packages

I'm not familiar with perfectly good packages being removed. webmin
certainly didn't fall into this category.

> I almost feel like I have been advocating the Linux worlds version of
> Microsoft (we will tell you what email server to run, we will tell you
> what database to run, etc, trust us, we know best).

FUD, FUD, FUD.

> Oh well, I guess two more servers need to be schedule for conversion
> to CentOS.

Have fun.

--
Soren Hansen |
Virtualisation specialist | Ubuntu Server Team
Canonical Ltd. | http://www.ubuntu.com/

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Mitch Mahan

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Apr 2, 2008, 10:17:36 PM4/2/08
to Ubuntu Colorado Local Community Team
Wow...

That's really all I have to say Kevin.
Dropped my jaw on that one.

- Mitch

P.S.
If you're using WebMin you probably shouldn't be touching linux servers
anyway.
</nudge> :)

Soren Hansen

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Apr 2, 2008, 10:26:59 PM4/2/08
to ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.com
On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 03:43:01PM -0600, Kevin Fries wrote:
> Rather than working with Webmin to fix whatever your issues are, you
> are working on a different tool, making you less consistent with
> RedHat, CentOS, etc (for the record, this is my key dislike of Suse
> and Yast).

Er... Yeah, because the eBox guys were willing to fix their stuff to be
policy compliant. It's as simple as that.

> Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a better tool than Webmin come
> along. But, eBox is too proprietary to their own way, without enough
> 3rd party support. Its is also too simplistic for advanced
> configuration.

It's not meant for advanced configuration. It's meant to help
inexperienced admins set up commonly used services on a Linux based
system.

> Personally, I get the simplistic controls on desktops, but not on
> servers.

Noone's forcing you to install eBox.

> The Ubuntu community is trying to do for the server, what it did for
> the desktop,

That's right. We're trying to take something that is usually perceived
as something only very geeky people can use, and make it accessible to
your grandma.

> and at least in my opinion, its a dangerous thing.

Booh!

> Servers in the home are probably quite easily set up with a basic
> script, and then even eBox is over kill.

If you know how to write such a script, eBox is not for you.

> Servers built for business, need that extended level of granular
> control. I love the Ubuntu desktop because of its smart defaults...
> I guess I am getting upset with the server stuff because I feel the
> Ubuntu community is restricting my level of control. Again, love it
> on the desktop, frustrated with it on the server.

Noone's forcing you to install or use eBox.



> Debian based systems also uses this same mechanism to reconfigure
> packages (dpkg-reconfigure, update-alternatives, etc). My argument is
> not with the problem, but the solution. Webmin has kinda become a
> standard by default. So accept that, and work with the software
> install package to handle package reconfiguration. Don't abandon what
> everyone already knows and go in a different direction. Keeping to
> the same web based admin tool as other distros, allows transfer of
> knowledge between distros to be faster, and allows Linux to grow at a
> faster pace.

If you care so deeply for it, I strongly encourage you to pick up
maintainership of it.

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Scott Scriven

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Apr 8, 2008, 8:29:09 AM4/8/08
to Ubuntu Colorado Local Community Team
* Kevin Fries <kfr...@cctus.com> wrote:
> ahh nuts, here we go again.

Heh. Sounds like you know this dance?

> Linux is supposed to be about choice, but the Ubuntu distro ...

Ubuntu lets you do whatever you like, including installing webmin
from upstream. If you want Ubuntu packages for it, you are free
to package it yourself. The difference is a matter of who
accepts responsibility for it.

A distro is primarily about convenience, not choice. It saves
you time otherwise required to research available options, build
them, and integrate them into a usable system.

Some free software isn't included in distros, of course. Usually
it's either because it hasn't caught enough attention to get
packaged, or because it just isn't very good.

There are about a thousand active Debian maintainers, last I
heard. They are some of the smartest and most generous people in
the free software community. None of them care enough about
webmin to include it any more. Does that mean anything?

If you want the ultimate in choice, install everything from
scratch. It's time-consuming but not otherwise too bad. It's
educational, and can even be entertaining.

> I am being told what to run

In an odd sort of way, yes. The single biggest weakness of the
free software world is that sometimes it inflicts *too much*
choice. I mean, look at Gentoo for example. Do you really care
what compiler options are used to build your applications?

One of the driving forces behind Ubuntu is to identify the best
software, best practices, and best ideas, and make them default.
The user doesn't have to research and select options unless they
want to.

The available choices are not limited, because the user can
always go upstream or third-party to do things the distro does
not provide. But there are still fewer choices involved, because
fewer choices are inflicted onto users who don't want them.

That said, Ubuntu still provides a great deal of choice. It has
about 20,000 packages representing the best of the free software
world, and mechanisms to help you add more if you need something
it doesn't include.


-- Scott

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