Framing Wall to minimize heat/cooling area

[Jason Hollis]

The goal would be to frame a wall right up next to the edge of the garage door, all the way to the back of the building.  This would allow us to have a smaller area (sit down meeting, programming, chatting...etc) to heat and cool.  Then all the big projects would be on the other side.  We could use some big floor fans and garage door opened in the summer, and some space heaters in the winter. I think that would be fine for the times that we would be on that side.

Im really really wanting to get the space to where it is more enjoyable for people to hang out.  I feel that because its way too hot in the summer, and freezing in the winter, that there are some people not coming out because its either too hot or too cold.  The recent addition of window treatments might have helped (very little), but we really need to do a lot more to really make the space comfortable to hang out in.

Other than getting a few more AC units installed, I don't know what else we can do.  If we can raise ~ $3,000 for a CNC (pledged in 2 days and funded in about a week), surely we can tackle this project.  Its always nice to have cool toys to play with (makerbot and CNC), but it would be even cooler (no pun intended) if we had a place where people wouldn't be uncomfortable to hang out in.

With that being said:

1. Who has experience framing (tall) walls on concrete floors?

2. Who would like to help (build and / or donate ) with this project?

If anyone else has any suggestions, please let me know.

[Ben Gold]

I framed my basement, which was 7.5 to 8.5 ft high walls on a concrete basement.  Its not too hard, the basic idea is actually to build the wall on its side then stand it up into place.

Three tools really made the difference for this:  a miter or chop saw (for cutting the 2x4s), a framing nailer (forget nailing by hand, ugh), and a concrete nailer which literally shoots, using .22 bullets, a nail into the concrete.

The wall itself should have a header and footer with vertical boards at 16".  This makes it easy to hang drywall and also be able to have a good guess where the studs are once the wall is built.

I'd definitely be available at least to help get started, I have two of three tools I mentioned (chop saw and concrete nailer).  I have an air compressor but don't have a framing nailer, I borrowed the one I used in my basement.  But I can check once plans solidify whether I can borrow it again.

This is all ancillary to the question of whether a separate room should/could get carved out and how big it would be.
---------------------

Ben Gold

"This business will get out of control.  It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it."

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[Dave]

--- On Sun, 7/29/12, Jason Hollis <jho...@jdubb.net> wrote:

(Warning: Book mode on!)

The first thing to do would be to check with the building owner (err,
Collexion doesn't actually own the building, does it?). The owner
may not like the idea of construction being done that modifies the
floor plan.

Nextly would come the legalities. Will a building permit be required?
Will any construction change the assessed tax value of the building?

Following that, the construction will need to following any building
codes and ordinances. It will be necessary to check with the local
building inspector's office to see what the local ordinances are
(unless someone happens to know where they are online).

For general starters, here's a link to the International Building Code,
which a lot of localities have included in their local codes and
ordinances (and, even if they haven't, most of them are good ideas):

http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/ibc/2009/index.htm?bu2=undefined

Some of the things to think of are whether any construction will create
a fire hazard. Will adequate means of egress be possible from all
points in the building. For those of y'all old enough to remember it,
we definitely do NOT want another Beverly Hills Supper Club incident:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Hills_Supper_Club

Will any walls constructed need to have electrical wiring installed
in them (There are codes concerning how far apart outlets shall be.).
Will this require the services of a licensed electrician (Most
localities allow the owner of a residence to do their own wiring, but
I don't think the hacker-space qualifies under those exemptions, but
someone will need to check.).

Will smoke alarms need to be installed in any new rooms? Sprinkler
systems? Will the building need to be brought up to the modern code
in all areas if any construction is being done? I don't know the
answer to these questions, but someone ought to find out. :-/

As for the actual construction, Ben has hit the nail on the head (Umm,
sorry about that!). ;-) You WILL need a decent, power chop saw.
Don't even think about cutting the 2x4s (or 2x6s) by hand. They did
it that way 100 years ago, but it also took a team of guys a year to
build a house.

I'll disagree with him about the power nailers. You can drive the
framing nails by hand, given enough practice and the right hammer (I
like a 1.5 pound framing hammer.).

I dislike concrete nails. I've found that they tend to chip and gouge
the concrete unacceptably. I much prefer concrete anchors. But, you
will need a good masonry drill bit to use these, and possibly a hammer
drill (You can use an ordinary drill, but it takes forever). Make sure
you keep the bit cool, usually with water cooling and going slow. Too
much heat will quickly ruin even the best masonry drill bit. Most
concrete guys dislike concrete anchors because they're slower to
install. But, I find that they do a better job, and produce less damage
to the concrete.

You will want to insulate the wall. Fiberglass insulation works well,
although it can be a pain to install. Wear good safety glasses to
prevent the fibers from getting in your eyes. Wear gloves, long sleeve
shirts, heavy pants, etc., and remove them as soon as you're finished and
wash them. Fiberglass insulation sheds tiny shards of glass which
will stick to about anything. And, when they encounter your skin, they
tend to burrow in, creating a painful, itchy sensation that lasts for
days (or longer). You have been warned. Oh, yeah, that pink stuff
(Owens Corning?) is decent.

Make sure you install a vapour barrier with the insulation. That will
help prevent moisture from migrating into the insulation and creating
a real mess.

Consider the type/thickness of the wallboard you're going to install.
Make sure you get a decent brand/grade, not that cheap Chinese stuff
that leaches Sulfuric Acid. :-( Consider the thickness of it,
especially with regards to any electrical outlets/switches which will
be installed (e.g., the distance the box is set back into the wall
varies with the thickness of the wallboard. The thin stuff is cheaper,
but the thicker variety provides better resistance to accidental
punch throughs.

Oh, yeah, while working with the wallboard, wear gloves. That stuff
irritates my hands.

You'll need someone who knows how to finish wallboard. There's a mesh
tape that you install, and then you smear a plaster over it. When that
dries, you sand, and sand, and sand until it's smooth. Oh, don't breathe
the dust. And, don't get it in your eyes.

You may need to do some caulking around uneven connections. A small
air gap (e.g., under the floor, between the floor and a masonry wall,
etc., will let an incredible amount of cold/hot air in. I like that
expanding foam insulation for that purpose. Do NOT get that stuff on
your skin; it will NOT come off (says the Voice of Experience) until
the skin dies and flakes off in about six weeks.

Consider where the doors will be located in the walls. Note that there
are right hand and left hand doors (and, that you can't simply mirror
them). Doors are expensive, even the cheap ones. Hanging a door can
be an exercise in futility (I'm still trying to perfect my technique,
and haven't gotten there yet.). Make sure that, when you hang the door,
that it clears the floor as it opens and closes. That's especially
true when hanging the door over an uneven concrete floor. It's no fun
to install a door, to find that it only opens six inches before hitting
a bump in the floor.

You will need a good level. You will want the wall to be as vertical
as possible. You will need a good construction grade square. You'll
want the boards/wall/door/etc. as square as possible. When retrofitting
a new wall to an existing building, you'll find that the existing walls
aren't perfectly square. You have to make adjustments as you go,
thinking ahead about the repercussions of any decisions.

You'll need a chalk line and/or laser line for ensuring that the wall
is straight. You really don't want to have to deal with a crooked
wall; it makes fitting the wallboard to it almost impossibly difficult.

Consider ventilation requirements when designing a new wall. A wall
which blocks the natural ventilation pattern can result in a stuffy
room. Give thought to air ducts, fans, blowers, etc.

Consider illumination requirements. A solid wall blocks natural
light, and can result in a gloomy room. Additional lighting may
need to be installed. Any additional lighting may require a wall
switch to turn it on/off, and these switches will need to be located
near the entry/exit ways from the room. Not only do building codes
legislate against having to enter a darkened room and stumble across
it to find the light switch; it's just not much fun.

For the more advanced builders, it may be possible to put a door with a
window in it in the new wall. This will provide some (but, probably not
enough) light to make the room less dingy. It can also be used as a
security measure to ensure that nothing is going seriously wrong in
the other room (although smoke detectors, etc., are probably still
required). A cheaper alternative to a windowed door may be to install
an actual window into the new wall (and, windows tend to be cheaper than
windowed doors, and can assist with the ventilation).. Anyway, it's
something to think about.

I'm hoping that no additional plumbing will be required. That goes
into a whole nother region of difficulty (including the requirement
to use a licensed plumber).

That ought to keep y'all busy for quite some time. ;-)

And, when you're finished, remember that you can use your new found
construction skills to aid organizations such as Habitat for Humanity
by building houses for people.

Dave

[Chad Cottle]

All great ideas on construction but I think the first questions that should be addressed are:

1.  What is the current fiscal health of Collexion?
2.  What are the short- and long-range plans?  Do we even want to consider improvements to a space that we do not own and will only help the landowner (Griffin)? 
3.  Is there substantial proof that a better space equates to a better turnout?  (My thinking is yes...I would hang out more but the place is well, not awesome)
4.  There has been discussion about finding another space.  Is that still on the table?  How can a dues structure be set up to fund this?  etc.

My two cents.  Hope this is constructive (no pun intended).

Chad

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[Derek Eggers]

If we decide to do it I have a nailer we can use.

[David Hempy]

I've got tools and skills to do that work.  Four folks could knock it out pretty quick.


Instead of splitting the space lengthwise, which would leave two fairly slender, long rooms, I'd suggest splitting it fore and aft.  The back room could be full-width, and maybe 20' deep...plenty big enough for couches, tables, etc. The shop space in front would be a versatile size for many activities, although the router would eat up half of it. Maybe a window looking into the shop for anti-claustrophobia.

Instead of going full-height (is that a 14' ceiling?), go a nice 8-10 feet with a suspended ceiling and insulation on top.  Or put a loft above for storage...though I don't think we've got the headroom for that to be very effective.

This would be very easy to cool/heat.  A medium-size window unit ($300?) vented to the shop interior (or maybe exterior?) would keep it comfy year-round. 


In lieu of a big overhaul, a few ceiling fans would go a long way toward bringing the heat down off the ceiling in the winter, and get a breeze going in the summer. 


-dave ("little d") hempy

[Derek Eggers]

What if we made a moveable wall so that we could facilitate a variety of uses?  

http://www.amyparrish.com/parrishablegoods/?p=47

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Derek Eggers

[Derek Eggers]

I'm kind of thinking barn door-ish. 

http://styleberryblog.com/diy-barn-doors-on-a-budget

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Derek Eggers

[Derek Eggers]

this doesn't look to shabby:

http://cliffspencer.net/blog/?p=1484

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Derek Eggers

[Dave]

--- On Mon, 7/30/12, Derek Eggers <eggers...@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Derek Eggers <eggers...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Framing Wall to minimize heat/cooling area
> To: coll...@googlegroups.com

> Date: Monday, July 30, 2012, 10:42 AM
>
> What if we made a moveable wall so that we could facilitate a variety of uses?  
> http://www.amyparrish.com/parrishablegoods/?p=47

Have y'all considered a tent? No, I'm not being facetious. A (possibly padded/insulated)
canvas wall could be suspended over a work area, and moved (or removed) quite easily.
And, as such, it probably wouldn't be subject to the various issues previously cited.

Ok, just trying to think outside the box.

Dave

[jho...@jdubb.net]

I'm for whatever makes the space more comfortable. Can those who can help, show up this Wednesday @ 630 to discuss?
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David Hempy <scoo...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Derek Eggers]

Sure Dave we know what you're suggesting.  ...that some of us work in a padded cell.  Gee thanks man. 

--
Derek Eggers

[Dave Hempy]

I got yer back, Derek. 

 

Odds are always against me getting away on a weeknight, but I’ll keep it in mind.  If you all come up with a plan and a workday, I’ll be sure to make myself available.

 

-dave

[timk]

@Dave Glass: Amazing writeup! Thanks! You should really come by the space sometime.

Things it would be awesome to avoid if we build a wall:
- New plumbing
- New wiring
- Fiberglass
- Doors (not doorways; maybe those plastic strips for cold storage doorways instead of doors?)

FWIW, I think the tent idea sounds cool, too. Poly dropcloths are cheap and can prototype an air containment area.

When should we test out the HVAC's cumulative cooling ability? Now that we have an awesome temperature sensor array (thanks, Mike!), can we make that happen? Might need to kick in some cash for the electric bill after an extended run, but it would be good to see what our unit can do when it's engaged full-time so we have a benchmark for improvements. Differential from ambient outside temps should be enlightening.

-Tim

[Jerome Hollon]

I have in the past used felt sheets bought from a hobbie store to insulate a drafty apartment. I think I read about it on lifehacker a long time ago. It's essentially wool, so it had a high R factor, and it's cheap and movable.

This guy seems to agree:  http://www.utilitybillbusters.com/articles/heating/get-felt-upusing-felt-to-insulate-better/ 

[Jason Hollis]

I also like the option what -dave has mentioned below (about putting a wall up the other way and adding a window unit to vent to the shop interior.

 

I really do not want to lose sight of making the space more comfortable.  It appears that others want to be comfortable by sitting in a chair, but how nice would it be if when sitting down you could be nice and cool in summer and warm and toasty in the winter?

 

I propose that we start meeting on Saturdays to get this going.  Who is in?  I know we can do this, just look at what we have done with the CNC.

 

Come on guys/gals...lets do this!!  (Nick, please chime in on anything we need to know about what Griffin is responsible for and what we can and cant do)

[Nikolai Warner]

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Jason Hollis <jho...@jdubb.net> wrote:

I also like the option what -dave has mentioned below (about putting a wall up the other way and adding a window unit to vent to the shop interior.

 

I really do not want to lose sight of making the space more comfortable.  It appears that others want to be comfortable by sitting in a chair, but how nice would it be if when sitting down you could be nice and cool in summer and warm and toasty in the winter?

 

I propose that we start meeting on Saturdays to get this going.  Who is in?  I know we can do this, just look at what we have done with the CNC.

 

Come on guys/gals...lets do this!!  (Nick, please chime in on anything we need to know about what Griffin is responsible for and what we can and cant do)

We're welcome to make any improvements we want. I'll check with Griffin to see if he's be willing to cover any of the improvements. He's also been on the lookout for finding a new, bigger space as well for us. (He's got his eye on this property as an option for us: http://goo.gl/maps/zfpO3... we'll have to check it out sometime)

 

 

On Monday, July 30, 2012 10:08:50 AM UTC-4, David Hempy wrote:

I've got tools and skills to do that work.  Four folks could knock it out pretty quick.


Instead of splitting the space lengthwise, which would leave two fairly slender, long rooms, I'd suggest splitting it fore and aft.  The back room could be full-width, and maybe 20' deep...plenty big enough for couches, tables, etc. The shop space in front would be a versatile size for many activities, although the router would eat up half of it. Maybe a window looking into the shop for anti-claustrophobia.

Instead of going full-height (is that a 14' ceiling?), go a nice 8-10 feet with a suspended ceiling and insulation on top.  Or put a loft above for storage...though I don't think we've got the headroom for that to be very effective.

This would be very easy to cool/heat.  A medium-size window unit ($300?) vented to the shop interior (or maybe exterior?) would keep it comfy year-round. 


In lieu of a big overhaul, a few ceiling fans would go a long way toward bringing the heat down off the ceiling in the winter, and get a breeze going in the summer. 


-dave ("little d") hempy

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[Dave]

--- On Fri, 8/17/12, Jason Hollis <jho...@jdubb.net> wrote:

> From: Jason Hollis <jho...@jdubb.net>
> Subject: Re: Framing Wall to minimize heat/cooling area

> To: coll...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, August 17, 2012, 12:17 PM
>
> I also like the option what -dave has mentioned below (about putting a wall up the
> other way and adding a window unit to vent to the shop interior.

The only thing is that, when the group gets a hacker-mobile, it might be nice to
pull it into the bay. :-)

So, will the hacker-mobile be electric? Bio-fueled? Nuclear powered?

 
> I really do not want to lose sight of making the space more comfortable.  It appears
> that others want to be comfortable by sitting in a chair, but how nice would it be if
> when sitting down you could be nice and cool in summer and warm and toasty in the
> winter?

How about a chair with a integrated heating/cooling system? Then, you wouldn't have
to to go the trouble/expense of heating/cooling the entire area, just the chairs that
people are sitting in.

How would one heat/cool a chair? Resistive electrical for heating? Peltier cells for
heating/cooling? Chilled/heated water piped to the chairs?

Ok, so I'm trying to think outside the box.

 
> I propose that we start meeting on Saturdays to get this going.  Who is in?  I know
> we can do this, just look at what we have done with the CNC.

I'll participate remotely from Owen County.

 
> Come on guys/gals...lets do this!!  (Nick, please chime in on anything we need to
> know about what Griffin is responsible for and what we can and cant do)
 

Dave

[Dave Hempy]

 

 

From: coll...@googlegroups.com [mailto:coll...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nikolai Warner

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 12:26 PM
To: coll...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Framing Wall to minimize heat/cooling area

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Jason Hollis <jho...@jdubb.net> wrote:

I also like the option what -dave has mentioned below (about putting a wall up the other way and adding a window unit to vent to the shop interior.

 

Hee, hee… I never thought –dave looks like “negative dave” until someone else typed it!  Hmmm…maybe I should switch to +dave or ~dave.  You’re !dave, Jason.   Please don’t #dave or /dave, but be sure to always ?dave.

 

 

I really do not want to lose sight of making the space more comfortable.  It appears that others want to be comfortable by sitting in a chair, but how nice would it be if when sitting down you could be nice and cool in summer and warm and toasty in the winter?

 

+1

 

Nick writes:

We're welcome to make any improvements we want. I'll check with Griffin to see if he's be willing to cover any of the improvements. He's also been on the lookout for finding a new, bigger space as well for us. (He's got his eye on this property as an option for us: http://goo.gl/maps/zfpO3... we'll have to check it out sometime)

 

 

Another area that would be SUPER cool would be National Ave, off Winchester/Walton.  Lots of light industry (HVAC, carpenters, etc.) with a mix of funky consumer/retail (a climbing wall gym, antiques, etc.)  I suspect the rent is too high for us there.

 

<3dave

 

 

[Nikolai Warner]

yeah, National Ave would be amazing. Last time i checked (quite a while ago), there was nothing available there. But we should check again! That's a great area.

 

 

<3dave

 

 

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[Jerome Hollon]

I would be able to drop by on some Saturdays and assist.

Regards,
Jerome

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