Greetings and a proposed creation
harncw
an older programmer\ system engineer run a small company that weighs
trucks. In 2002 I abused my position as a programer got in trouble
served some time and now reside here in Lexington where I have had
family ties since the late 70s.
I'm not sure where I first came across this information, maybe a
friend or some anonymous post on facebook, however it was interesting
information sitting there between the illuminati and the lizard
people.
What I'm beating around the bush getting at is that there are some
designs having to do with free energy that have me interested.
One design in particular seems rather easy to implement.
Jes Ascanius' Version of Nikola Tesla's Aerial System Starts on Page
7-8 on http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter7.pdf
This appears relatively authentic in that I found the “guy Ascanius
from denmark” complaining to people on a forum that they are not
paying attention to his design. (He seems a little bit upset, also.)
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/10947-jes-ascanius-radiant-collector.html#post188151
His skydrive has some interesting pictures and show some of his
designs. https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=5b0f8c473d9094e9&sc=photos
Seems rather simple to put together although I really don't have this
skill set.
Anyone interested?
Dave
> From: harncw <har...@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Greetings and a proposed creation
> To: "Collexion" <coll...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, April 26, 2012, 8:39 AM
>
> Hey this is Chris Harn I came by your open house the other night.
> I'm an older programmer\ system engineer run a small company
> that weighs trucks. In 2002 I abused my position as a programer
> got in trouble served some time and now reside here in Lexington
> where I have had family ties since the late 70s.
Hi Chris.
> I'm not sure where I first came across this information, maybe a
> friend or some anonymous post on facebook, however it was interesting
> information sitting there between the illuminati and the lizard
> people.
>
> What I'm beating around the bush getting at is that there are some
> designs having to do with free energy that have me interested.
>
> One design in particular seems rather easy to implement.
> Jes Ascanius' Version of Nikola Tesla's Aerial System
> Starts on Page 7-8 on http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter7.pdf
>
> This appears relatively authentic in that I found the “guy Ascanius
> from denmark” complaining to people on a forum that they are not
> paying attention to his design. (He seems a little bit upset, also.)
>
> http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/10947-jes-ascanius-radiant-collector.html#post188151
>
> His skydrive has some interesting pictures and show some of his
> designs. https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=5b0f8c473d9094e9&sc=photos
>
> Seems rather simple to put together although I really don't have
> this skill set.
>
> Anyone interested?
Not me!
(Will one of y'all check my numbers here? It's almost midnight, and
I'm getting sleepy, and my eyes are crossing when I try to count
the zeros.).
Most of these guys are talking about scavenging energy at a level
of about .5 Volts at 10 microAmps. That's 5 microWatts of energy.
Or, expressed in another set of units, 5 microJoules/second. Thus,
it would take you 200,000 seconds to get one Joule of energy.
Now, for comparison purposes, a KiloWatt-hour, as supplied by KU,
runs somewhere around US$.10 (ten cents per KiloWatt-hour). 1 KW-hr
is 1000 Watts for 1 hour, or 1000 Watts times 3600 seconds, for
3,600,000 Joules (all for about ten cents).
To get that quantity of energy from the energy scavenging system, it
would take you 200,000*3,600,000, or 720,000,000,000 seconds. That's
over 22,815 YEARS! And, that's for US$.10 worth of energy! It just
ain't worth it.
Figuring that it will take a couple of US dollars worth of parts, how long will it take to scavenge that value of energy? A few million years?
So, it's just not worth it to me.
Now, for the next part of my assault. When people get upset when others can't duplicate their work, that usually means that they either haven't explained it adequately, or that there's something that is not being understood or documented.
We've seen some of that with the "Cold Fusion" scenario of a few decades ago. Even university level researchers weren't able to adequately explain what they had constructed, and what they were seeing. We've seen it even more recently with the "Faster than light neutrinos". It's a good idea to remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Or, it's good to keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.
Now, some of the things I've noticed that haven't been documented, well, at least to my satisfaction, are some electric field measurements for the site making the claims. It's a known fact that
you can have a reasonably high electric field if one lives in close
proximity to a radio station. I've personally been able to see electric field strengths that will produce over 1 Volt of signal on
an unterminated oscilloscope probe while living 1 mile away from a
50 KW FM broadcast band radio station (That threw me for one heck of
a loop one night as I was trying to figure out why the oscillator I
had built was so far off frequency, at least until I noticed that the
signal was present even when the circuit was switched off!). There
are anecdotal tales of electric fields high enough to cause arcs
that "spoke" from things such as fences and kitchen stoves for people
living within a few miles of AM broadcast band radio station WLW, back
when it had the FCC STA for 500 KW.
I've also heard tales of unterminated long wire antennas causing
half-inch arcs (which requires about 20-40 KV or so!) from distant
(5-10 miles) lightning strikes.
There's also the possibility of coupled energy from house wiring,
or from the power company distribution lines. I'm told that quite a
few of the KU distribution lines run at 14.4 KV (although some of the
other neighbourhoods may be down at 7.2 KV, or even 4800 Volts or so).
If someone really wanted to, they could figure the amount of voltage
capacitively coupled onto a reasonably sized plate, which is suspended
a reasonable distance away from the lines and from ground (Be sure to
take into account that the distribution lines are three phase, such
that the electric field mostly, but not entirely, cancels out, due to
the separation of the three phases.). You probably wouldn't even
have to resort to solving Maxwell's equations fully.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_equations
Note that there are simplifications for figuring the capacitance
between a wire and a plate, and between a plate over an infinitely
conducting sheet (ground).
I've been wanting to work these equations out for quite some time,
but just haven't had the opportunity to yet (so, I'll leave it as
an exercise for the student!).
For that matter, someone could probably build a field mill to
empirically measure the value:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_mill
But, anyway, I'm getting off the topic.
If someone really wanted to construct such a circuit, low voltage diodes would be the way to go. Germanium is good, but Schottky diodes
may be even better, due to their slightly lower forward voltage "drop"
(Note, though, that the I-V curve of a semiconductor diode is actually
an exponential curve, and that the "drop" everyone talks of is an
extrapolation of that curve; You'll still get some forward conduction
at voltages below the "drop" voltage.):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schottky_diode
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode#Current.E2.80.93voltage_characteristic
Also, note that it may be beneficial to build a tuned circuit which
can step up the voltage received, which will improve the efficiency
of the rectification process, although this will require knowing the frequency of the predominant radio frequency energy source for a particular location. Some of the crystal radio builders understand
this process quite well, and one would be advised to study
some of the circuits that they use.
Finally, a modern device is the "zero voltage MOSFET", such as the ones recently developed by Advanced Linear Devices:
http://www.aldinc.com/press_details.php?id=24
and these can be used as a synchronous rectifier, which will have an even lower voltage drop than a Schottky diode.
The net results is that it's just not cost effective to harvest energy
in this manner, at least if no other option exists (e.g., You aren't
stranded out in the desert, miles from any other source of power).
One thing I've theorized about, and even toyed with a bit, is using
a Seebeck cell to produce power with. Seebeck cells are known as
Peltier cells when used the other way (Seebeck = heat energy
in/electricity out, while Peltier = electricity in/heat energy out).
They're used as CPU coolers on upper end PCs, and are available on
e-bay and from other sources for not too much money. One of these,
supplied with a temperature differential of 40-50 degrees F will
produce somewhere between .5 and 1.0 Volts, at about 1 Amp or so
(Note that that's about five orders of magnitude more than most of
the "free" energy systems!). Now, if you couple a Seebeck cell with
a solar hot water collector system (which is fairly cheap to
construct, usually just some PVC piping, some soda cans, and a bit of
handy work), you can have that half-Watt of power continuously, even
at night (via storage of the hot water). Then, if you use one of
the low voltage boost voltage converters, you can produce any output
voltage that you desire (The Linear Technology LTC3108 has some potential for such a switching boost voltage regulator.).
So, that's my take on it. Comments anyone?
Dave
Tim Stamps
"It's good to keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out."
LOL
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magicclockshop
Benjamin Askren
harncw
Ok so how about I call it "really really costly radiant energy" :) As
far as being mindless, just call it art. I doubt I'll be running my
entire house on this soon. I was thinking more of an outdoor display
something along the lines of "electronic LED fireflys". Proof of the
concept, inspiration, etc.
And yeah I'm not really sure what source of the power is, even more so
for me because my understanding of electricity is layman. I agree
that we probably wouldn't draw much out of it, however I did see an
large claim in one of the documents of 96 watts by chaining multiple
circuits together on the same antenna.
This is an idea I've had rattling around for sometime, I originally
pictured it at living arts and science center amongst their outdoor
art.
I like the solar water heat Seebeck idea. I've, pondered solar heat
water to steam to electric and even solar heat powered absorption
refrigeration.
Dave
> From: Benjamin Askren <ben.a...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Greetings and a proposed creation
> To: coll...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, April 27, 2012, 8:32 AM
>
> Dave -
> You bring up a very good point about Seebeck devices.
Cool. I'm glad I'm not the only one interested in those things! They're not real
expensive, although their output is somewhat limited. So, they probably won't
be practical for "whole house" power. But, they should be able to easily produce
enough power to charge a cell/smart phone, or run a radio receiver, or power several
other small devices. I've envisioned them as having interesting applications
for 3rd world countries, or for locations remote from commercial power. Besides,
they're kind of fun to play with (and, reasonably cheap, too!).
The problem with the solar hot water system I described to operate one of the
Seebeck cells is that you end up compounding inefficiencies. The solar to hot water
isn't all that efficient, and then the hot water to electricity isn't that efficient,
either. So, you end up with an over all efficiency down in the low single digit
range. But, it is pretty cheap, at least on the small scale. And, you also end
up with hot water for your coffee or a shower. :-)
There are also some direct solar to electric systems using Seebeck cells. Most of
those focus solar energy directly on the Seebeck collector to produce the heat which
is then turned into electricity. The trick is that the back of the Seebeck cell
has to be cooled (so that there's a temperature differential across the cell). I
have seen some designs that called for using water cooling of the backside of the
cell.
In any case, there's a theoretical maximum thermodynamic efficiency, determined
by the input versus output temperature. And, I'm afraid that, at most common
temperatures, that's going to limit a Seebeck system to under a 10 percent efficiency.
Then, again, if it's only being used to scavenge energy that will be wasted/dumped
anyway, well, that's a 10 percent gain for nothing! :-)
Hmm, might be able to use a Seebeck cell to scavenge energy from a geothermal system.
> The whole topic of "energy harvesting" is one of interest to me.
Ditto.
> The whole topic is really about converting energy from one form to another. Back
> in the day (when everything was fossil fuel combustion to mechanical to electrical
> back to mechanical (or heat), tables were published on the efficiency of various
> conversions (http://www.ems.psu.edu/~radovic/Chapter4.pdf, page 59).
> A lot (mostly on silicon or to do with batteries) has happened since then.
> Does anyone know of a more modern resource for energy conversion (and storage)
> efficiency data?
That kind of data is still available. Unfortunately, even with the advances in
technology, the laws of thermodynamics hasn't changed (e.g., No one has yet been
able to construct Maxwell's Demon! Although, there has been some experimental work
in that direction!):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_demon
There have been some improvements in the conversion efficiencies, although these,
for the most part, have been minor (e.g., Mature technologies are, well, mature,
and not subject to too much improvement, while technological changes, or immature
technologies can produce some increases.). But, I don't have a source for any
good and recent numbers. Maybe one of the other of y'all do?
> - Ben
Dave
Dave
> From: harncw <har...@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Greetings and a proposed creation
> To: "Collexion" <coll...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Friday, April 27, 2012, 8:44 AM
>
> Hi Dave et. al.
>
> Ok so how about I call it "really really costly radiant energy" :) As
> far as being mindless, just call it art. I doubt I'll be running my
> entire house on this soon. I was thinking more of an outdoor display
> something along the lines of "electronic LED fireflys". Proof of the
> concept, inspiration, etc.
Oh, there's no harm in building such a system. It could be very educational.
And, it may even be a good test bed for future ideas/work. Just don't get your
hopes up too high.
> And yeah I'm not really sure what source of the power is, even more so
> for me because my understanding of electricity is layman. I agree
> that we probably wouldn't draw much out of it, however I did see an
> large claim in one of the documents of 96 watts by chaining multiple
> circuits together on the same antenna.
I'm betting on the received radio wave energy, although I admit that I'm willing
to be proved wrong.
There is also an electrical field gradient in the atmosphere, and it could be
tapping into that (although, such a field gradient is usually fairly static, so
wouldn't work to charge the capacitors in a voltage doubler system).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity#Electrification_in_the_air
I would be quite surprised by 96 Watts from a single antenna (and, almost nothing
surprises me anymore). The impedance of a single antenna/collector would be high
enough to be seriously loaded by trying to pull anywhere near that amount of power
from it. I suppose if it were large enough, and in a strong enough field, that might
happen. Maybe. But, I don't know that I'd want to living in such a strong field
environment.
> This is an idea I've had rattling around for sometime, I originally
> pictured it at living arts and science center amongst their outdoor
> art.
Might work. Even at 5 microWatts, if that energy is harvested and stored, it could
drive a high efficiency LED periodically. I've empirically observed some high
efficiency red LEDs when driven with microWatt levels of power in a darkened
environment (They're not real bright, but I was able to see a glow.).
> I like the solar water heat Seebeck idea. I've, pondered solar heat
> water to steam to electric and even solar heat powered absorption
> refrigeration.
I'm intrigued by the Seebeck idea. Plus, it produces enough hot water for coffee,
and maybe a hot shower, too. Might even power a high efficiency LED for a reading
light at night. :-) The last batch of Seebeck/Peltier cells I picked up off of
e-bay were only a few bucks each (although that's been a while ago).
Most of the modern Peltier/Seebeck cells are made from Bismuth Telluride semiconductor
diodes. However, the effect also exists in the junction between any two metals
(although usually not as much as with the Bismuth Telluride). So, it's possible to
build a system like this by twisting wires (LOTS and LOTS of wires) together. It's
been used to power a radio receiver before, using a kerosene lamp as a heat source.
http://www.xyroth-enterprises.co.uk/thermser.htm
Dave