CNC Router computer blues...help?

[David Hempy]

Well, I swung by (swang by?) the space today to show off the router to my dad, in town for a visit.  The PC for the CNC router was up and running.  I launched Mach3, reset the controller and tried my best, "It's ALIVE!" demonstration, but the router didn't budge. Didn't take too long to notice the stepper power supply and controller were powered down, as they should be left.

So, I hit the power supply and they fire up.  At the same instant, the PC rebooted.  

As if that wasn't weird enough, the PC then refused to boot.  It said, "No system boot disk...insert floppy" or something along those lines.  Watching the POST messages, it appeared it found no hard drive.  Tried to get into BIOS settings without success. I popped the cover, and found nothing astray...the fan was blowing, ribbon cable well seated, etc.

Anybody with the sweet hardware skeelz going to the space Wednesday night willing to take a peek at the machine? 

Any guesses on if the controller could have zapped the computer via a parallel cable? 

Argh,
-dave


ps. I'm posting this to the collexion list instead of the collexion-cnc list, since we'll welcome help from anyone who's got help to offer. As the CNC project transitions from a project to build the device into a device available for the entire group to use, I expect we'll shift traffic to the main list, to promote the router's use by more people.  Yay!

[Michael Culp]

It's entirely possible. Had this happen once but never did figure out why and it never repeated itself.  In my case a new hard drive fixed it. I have 40 giggers coming out my ears if you need one. Might be able to dig up an 80. 

Michael

Sent from my iPhone

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[David Hempy]

I just got the following response from Gecko.  Sounds like a surge can't possibly move from the controller to the PC over the parallel port.  Maybe we need to isolate the computer to a different circuit?  Any electrical wizards have an opinion?  I've never (in the last decade, anyway) had a computer freak out from a heavy load starting up nearby.  Other suggestions on smoothing out power-ups?

Michael - Yeah...we'll take a 40 gigger (or two...).  Do you ever get over to the space?  If not, I can come by your office some time.

Anyone willing to take this computer under their wing and resuscitate it?

-dave

 

David,

 

                Thank you for contacting Geckodrive technical support.

 

                The G540 is optically isolated on all inputs and outputs to the PC. It does not sound like the G540 fried your computer, but it may have been a power surge when you initially turned on your power supply on the same circuit.

 

                Please let me know if you have any more questions. Thank you!

 

Marcus Freimanis

Geckodrive, Inc.

14662 Franklin Ave.

Suite E

Tustin, CA 92780

 

Phone: (714) 832-8874

Fax: (714) 832-8082

[David Morrison]

I am no expert and definitely not a licensed electrician, but just have a few minutes to reply with my speculation.

It's possible that if the computer is on the same outlet/circuit as a large load, when you turn on the large load it may create a brown out condition for the PC/other electronics on that circuit. If the PC is using a cheap power supply or cheap motherboard, you may have problems with components going bad. Related information: http://superuser.com/questions/113113/why-are-brownouts-so-harmful 

A couple options if this is indeed the problem:

1. Put the PC on an UPS system that will hopefully detect the brown out and switch over to battery power momentarily. (This will not fix the problem for any other electronics sharing the same circuit).

2. Increase the available amperage at the outlet

3. Dedicate an entire circuit from the circuit breaker to the CNC machine with enough amperage to cover the start up requirements.

Here is an article with a fun title, "How many things can you plug into an electrical outlet before it catches fire?"  http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/household-safety/fire/outlet-overload.htm 

[Michael Culp]

I haven't been there only because of time constraints.  When are folks there and I'll drop a couple by

Muchael

Sent from my iPhone

[Michael Culp]

As for jumping from controller though parallel port..... 

One of the companies I worked for did a major remodel. The owner was pitting on the very last outlet plate and his screw driver slipped and crossed the wires.  ZAP!!  $70,0000 in Damages to the high end scanners.  It went through a leg of the 3 phase power lines frying all 3 scanners and their computers.  The computers were plugged into really good battery backup units and surge protectors.  It went through the SCSI cables connecting the computers to the scanners.  All the 2phase devices were fine as they were all surge protected.  We had decided not to protect the three phase lines because of the $12000 cost  it would have incurred.  Whoops!

Sent from my iPhone

[Christopher Harn]

I donated that PC...  That box was definitely cheap hardware.   We need to figure out if it is hard drive or mobo in order to better protect in the future.  I’m betting this will happen again.

 

I think either:

1) Brown-out grinched the power supply which rebooted the computer and the abnormal reboot just so happened coincidentally to make hard disk go clonk.

2) Electrical mojo snuck via the parallel cable onto the motherboard and smoked something.  Just because their inputs and outputs are electrically isolated doesn’t mean that they protected all 25 pins on that parallel cable. (This is what I think actually happened.)

 

I’m out of spare old ide hard drives... someone said they had a bunch

Clarence at computer pieces and parts on liberty road has old p4 dells for like $60. (installed with an XP license)

 

Chris Harn

312-3048

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[Dave]

--- On Fri, 6/1/12, Christopher Harn <har...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: Christopher Harn <har...@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: CNC Router computer blues...help?
> To: coll...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, June 1, 2012, 5:49 PM
>
> I donated that PC...  That box was definitely cheap
> hardware.   We need to figure out if it is hard drive or mobo in order
> to better protect in the future.  I’m betting this will happen again.

:-(

 
> I think either:
> 1) Brown-out grinched the power supply which rebooted the computer
> and the abnormal reboot just so happened coincidentally to make
> hard disk go clonk.

Theoretically, the power supply is supposed to output a "Power Good"
signal, which the motherboard/disk controller is supposed to monitor.
If "Power Good" goes down, the hardware is supposed to theoretically
prohibit/terminate any write operations prior to the power actually
going down (Hardware may do weird things in the death throws if not
inhibited.). However, note all of those "theoreticallys" in there.

> 2) Electrical mojo snuck via the parallel cable onto the motherboard
> and smoked something.  Just because their inputs and outputs are
> electrically isolated doesn’t mean that they protected all 25 pins
> on that parallel cable. (This is what I think actually happened.)

How is "isolated" defined? Does that mean opto-isolators, with a
floating ground? Or, opto-isolators with a common ground? Or, just
TTL inputs with a common ground.

Is the power supply connected to the same outlet as the PC? Is the
CNC grounded via any other ground (perhaps the concrete floot?
(Concrete is conductive.). Could the surge in the power line, at
power supply switch on, have caused a ground loop, causing a significant
current to flow in the ground lead, elevating it several volts above
ground, and causing a high current to flow through the ground of the CNC
or PC?

 
> I’m out of spare old ide hard drives... someone said they had a
> bunch

I used to have a bunch...of 40M IDE drives. But, I doubt that they'd
do much good, even if I could find them (Note "M", not "G").

> Clarence at computer pieces and parts on liberty road has old p4

> dells for like $60. (installed with an XP license) (I did dispose
of my MFM and RLL drives, though.). ;-)

That might be a winner. Plus, a good UPS, and some consideration of
the electrical supply system.
 
> Chris Harn
> 312-3048
 
Dave

[David Hempy]

I agree, a surge from the driver over the parallel port seems the most likely culprit, by far.  But, I have faith in their tech support's response: " The G540 is optically isolated on all inputs and outputs to the PC."  Gecko's are a very mature product, with heavy design emphasis on fault protection.

I don't think we'll ever determine the cause, but I am going to move the PC to a different circuit, if possible.  Hmm...although, I wonder if that might not *increase* risks in some situations, such as a broken neutral to the controller and a chassis short, dumping line voltage from the router into the neutral or chassis ground to the other circuit's neutral for instant 220... I think I'm WAY overthinking this one...

I'm also going to eliminate the long (25' ?) extension cord to the power strip to the computer and controller.  While I wouldn't expect it (I've done far worse), that may have caused enough of a voltage drop during the startup load to cause the brownout scenario several of you have suggested. Hmm...that is sounding more suspect.

I'm going down to the space Saturday with a loaner (not a donor) PC for the day to try and get first cut on the router. Give me a call if you want to stop by, Mike.  Otherwise, someone is usually there Wed nights and would happily receive a few old hard drives.  BTW, the (possibly) dead drive is IDE.  Is that what your surplus drives are?  I don't know if that machine has SATA or not.

If we can't get this machine back together for easy/cheap and no others donate themselves, I think I'll follow your advice, Dave, and pick up one on Liberty Road or Laptop Exchange in Zandale. 

-dave

[Michael Culp]

I'm planning to work in my shop tomorrow and get my machine cutting again. I've also found all the mechanicals for my new laser cutter so I can stay busy all weekend easy.  I'll try to drop by Wednesday with a handful of IDE 40gb drives.  

Michael

Sent from my iPhone

[Dave]

--- On Sat, 6/2/12, David Hempy <scoo...@gmail.com> wrote:

>From: David Hempy <scoo...@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: CNC Router computer blues...help?
>To: coll...@googlegroups.com

>Date: Saturday, June 2, 2012, 12:22 AM
>
> I agree, a surge from the driver over the parallel port seems the
> most likely culprit, by far.  But, I have faith in their tech
> support's response: "The G540 is optically isolated on all inputs
> and outputs to the PC."  Gecko's are a very mature product, with
> heavy design emphasis on fault protection.

Ok, that would seem to rule out a spike going across the parallel
port.

> I don't think we'll ever determine the cause, but I am going to move
> the PC to a different circuit, if possible.  Hmm...although, I wonder
> if that might not *increase* risks in some situations, such as a
> broken neutral to the controller and a chassis short, dumping line
> voltage from the router into the neutral or chassis ground to the
> other circuit's neutral for instant 220... I think I'm WAY
> overthinking this one...

That's possible, especially if there's a weak neutral in the
configuration somewhere.

One of the buildings I used to work in had a neutral fail on the
3 phase distribution transformer. Talk about some WEIRD voltages
showing up on the outlets. KU was not real happy.

I have one of those three prong circuit testers that I could drop by
and give the outlets a quick test with (Maybe on a Wednesday night?).
For that matter, those things are only about $6-7 at Lowes, and are
awfully handy to have. They'll pick up an open neutral, or a reverse
wired outlet instantly. They won't do much for finding a weak neutral.
The best thing for that may be a voltmeter and a load that you can
drop onto the circuit.

> I'm also going to eliminate the long (25' ?) extension cord to the
> power strip to the computer and controller.  While I wouldn't expect
> it (I've done far worse), that may have caused enough of a voltage
> drop during the startup load to cause the brownout scenario several
> of you have suggested. Hmm...that is sounding more suspect.

Possibly.

> I'm going down to the space Saturday with a loaner (not a donor) PC
> for the day to try and get first cut on the router. Give me a call
> if you want to stop by, Mike.  Otherwise, someone is usually there
> Wed nights and would happily receive a few old hard drives.  BTW,
> the (possibly) dead drive is IDE.  Is that what your surplus drives
> are?  I don't know if that machine has SATA or not.

Drat. I wish I'd seen this four hours ago, before I went to town
and came back (Now I'm 40 miles away.).

> If we can't get this machine back together for easy/cheap and no
> others donate themselves, I think I'll follow your advice, Dave,
> and pick up one on Liberty Road or Laptop Exchange in Zandale. 

:-)

> -dave

> (Other) Dave

[Chris Harn]

Got the old computer back and put it on the bench.

  It appears to be hard drive.

  It was definitely an old hard drive, “IBM deskstar” and 2002 on the label, making grinding noises and everything.

  With the hard drive connected it could not even complete bios “post”.

  I did have to reset the cmos\bios settings on the motherboard, but that could be just a bad cmos battery.

 

So I guess we chalk this one up to dirty power?

 

My apologies for ever doubting the lizard people at geckodrive.

 

Chris

[Todd Willey]

Moar like "DeathStar", amirite? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi_Deskstar

I'm surprised it made it that long.

-todd[1]

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[Dave Hempy]

Your lizard overlords accept your apology.

 

Now fall on your sword.

 

-dave

 

 

Ps.  Thanks again for saving the day, Chris!  :-D