I noticed there hasn't been a post regarding the 'Fair Pay to Play'
campaign for quite a while. That's too bad. We need your thoughts and
suggestions.
We are having regular meetings regarding the campaign, but seem to
have record LOW attendance.
At this time there are 143 members of this group and yet at any given
meeting so far there are about 5 to 8 people present. It’s mostly the
same 5 to 8 people working hard so that hundreds of Portland musicians
may get paid something closer to what they are worth.
If you are at all concerned about getting paid properly for the time
and expense of performing your craft, I urge you to go to the ‘Fair
Pay to Play’ web site (http://www.fairpaytoplay.com) and sign onto the
email list to be informed of meeting dates and times. We meet at the
AFM 99 hall at 325 NE 20th, Portland, OR.
I live in the Bay Area. I've been working hard on getting all ages shit to start happening. I book at a bar every monday.. much more difficult than portland was in terms of who can play.
-William Caruso
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com> wrote:
From: Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>
Subject: We Want Your Brain
To: "Club Musicians" <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 2:18 PM
I noticed there hasn't been a post regarding the 'Fair Pay to Play'
campaign for quite a while. That's too bad. We need your thoughts and
suggestions.
We are having regular meetings regarding the campaign, but seem to
have record LOW attendance.
At this time there are 143 members of this group and yet at any given
meeting so far there are about 5 to 8 people present. It’s mostly the
same 5 to 8 people working hard so that hundreds of Portland musicians
may get paid something closer to what they are worth.
If you are at all concerned about getting paid properly for the time
and expense of performing your craft, I urge you to go to the ‘Fair
Pay to Play’ web site (http://www.fairpaytoplay.com) and sign onto the
email list to be informed of meeting dates and times. We meet at the
AFM 99 hall at 325 NE 20th, Portland, OR.
I'm sorry I haven't been attending. I wanted to get a band together first. But before I do that I have a tour that i'm working on. On top of being in the process of Managing 3 bands. Once everything calms down I'll take a look and give my opinions.
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, William Caruso <wcialrluis...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: William Caruso <wcialrluis...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: We Want Your Brain
To: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 7:13 PM
I live in the Bay Area. I've been working hard on getting all ages shit to start happening. I book at a bar every monday.. much more difficult than portland was in terms of who can play.
-William Caruso
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com> wrote:
From: Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>
Subject: We Want Your Brain
To: "Club Musicians" <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 2:18 PM
I noticed there hasn't been a post regarding the 'Fair Pay to Play'
campaign for quite a while. That's too bad. We need your thoughts and
suggestions.
We are having regular meetings regarding the campaign, but seem to
have record LOW
attendance.
At this time there are 143 members of this group and yet at any given
meeting so far there are about 5 to 8 people present. It’s mostly the
same 5 to 8 people working hard so that hundreds of Portland musicians
may get paid something closer to what they are worth.
If you are at all concerned about getting paid properly for the time
and expense of performing your craft, I urge you to go to the ‘Fair
Pay to Play’ web site (http://www.fairpaytoplay.com) and sign onto the
email list to be informed of meeting dates and times. We meet at the
AFM 99 hall at 325 NE 20th, Portland, OR.
[mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of William Caruso
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:14 PM
To: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: We Want Your Brain
I live in the Bay Area. I've been working hard on getting all ages shit to
start happening. I book at a bar every monday.. much more difficult than
portland was in terms of who can play.
-William Caruso
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com> wrote:
From: Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>
Subject: We Want Your Brain
To: "Club Musicians" <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 2:18 PM
I noticed there hasn't been a post regarding the 'Fair Pay to Play'
campaign for quite a while. That's too bad. We need your thoughts and
suggestions.
We are having regular meetings regarding the campaign, but seem to
have record LOW
attendance.
At this time there are 143 members of this group and yet at any given
meeting so far there are about 5 to 8 people present. It’s mostly the
same 5 to 8 people working hard so that hundreds of Portland musicians
may get paid something closer to what they are worth.
If you are at all concerned about getting paid properly for the time
and expense of performing your craft, I urge you to go to the ‘Fair
My excuse is that I'm fairly new to Portland having moved here not to long
ago from LA. I have not yet had a chance to really network and meet enough
of other musicians in this city. Before I can rightfully declare myself even
qualified to make judgments on the fair pay to play conditions in this city
I must first get out and play some local joints in order to have a
familiarity with the pay opportunities for musicians in the Portland area.
As soon as I can get somewhat established as a performing musician in the
area I will be more prepared to give an honest assessment of the situation
and offer some accurate feedback.
By the way I am in the market for a decent guitar player that also sings and
writes to collaborate with. That would certainly help my situation along. So
if anyone has any referrals I would be very grateful.
Becky Bishop (503)430-0347 - Landline (503)781-0661 - Mobile
beckybish...@comcast.net
On Behalf Of Probable Cause
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:18 PM
To: Club Musicians
Subject: We Want Your Brain
I noticed there hasn't been a post regarding the 'Fair Pay to Play'
campaign for quite a while. That's too bad. We need your thoughts and
suggestions.
We are having regular meetings regarding the campaign, but seem to
have record LOW attendance.
At this time there are 143 members of this group and yet at any given
meeting so far there are about 5 to 8 people present. It's mostly the
same 5 to 8 people working hard so that hundreds of Portland musicians
may get paid something closer to what they are worth.
If you are at all concerned about getting paid properly for the time
and expense of performing your craft, I urge you to go to the 'Fair
Pay to Play' web site (http://www.fairpaytoplay.com) and sign onto the
email list to be informed of meeting dates and times. We meet at the
AFM 99 hall at 325 NE 20th, Portland, OR.
No shit. I lived in LA a very long time (too long), but when I got started
there were plenty of places to play and even get paid. All that came to a
screeching halt in the early nineties when LA's active music scene suddenly
dried up. From what I understand the Bay area dried up a long time before
that and hasn't been happening since the early eighties. I'm finding since
I arrived in Portland just a short time ago that there are a lot of joints
to play up here and a lot them actually pay something. I can understand the
importance of keeping it that way and making it better.
Becky Bishop (503)430-0347 - Landline (503)781-0661 - Mobile
beckybish...@comcast.net
_____
From: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Greg Dawson
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:35 PM
To: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: We Want Your Brain
I understand - And it just keeps getting worse the further south you go.
I tried LA briefly. That's an express route to insanity for a musician.
[mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of William Caruso
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:14 PM
To: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: We Want Your Brain
I live in the Bay Area. I've been working hard on getting all ages shit to
start happening. I book at a bar every monday.. much more difficult than
portland was in terms of who can play.
-William Caruso
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com> wrote:
From: Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>
Subject: We Want Your Brain
To: "Club Musicians" <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 2:18 PM
I noticed there hasn't been a post regarding the 'Fair Pay to Play'
campaign for quite a while. That's too bad. We need your thoughts and
suggestions.
We are having regular meetings regarding the campaign, but seem to
have record LOW
attendance.
At this time there are 143 members of this group and yet at any given
meeting so far there are about 5 to 8 people present. It's mostly the
same 5 to 8 people working hard so that hundreds of Portland musicians
may get paid something closer to what they are worth.
If you are at all concerned about getting paid properly for the time
and expense of performing your craft, I urge you to go to the 'Fair
Caruso and Bishop make excellent points about being busy. Those are valid
reasons, not "excuses," for not participating in the committee. We all have
to seek gigs, perform, practice, rehearse, promote, all the other tasks of
being struggling musicians. And some also have other jobs, family
responsibilities, social lives. It is unfair for Greg to say "It's your
money -- your life" as if being on this committee brings more money and life
fulfillment than all those other activities. So far there is no evidence for
that.
I believe 100 percent in fair pay to play. But I tried working with this
committee for several months and its glacial pace just made the investment
of time and energy not worth it, to me. After about 10 weeks of meetings the
group was still not ready to talk to a reporter who wanted to do a story on
the campaign. Since then I have seen a few little articles. But still not
one club has signed on. And I think the group has been meeting for more than
a year now.
Increasing attendance at meetings would only make the proceedings go *
slower,* as there would be more viewpoints to consider and longer
discussions. I think the small group ought to get some good coverage, get
some clubs signed on, show some progress, and maybe us silent sympathizers
would then see that the boat is moving, and get onboard. Thank you.
Sincerely, SC
-- Steve Cheseborough
www.opb.org/programs/artbeat/videos/view/67-Steve-Cheseborough www.stevecheseborough.com http://cdbaby.com/all/chezztone www.myspace.com/stevecheseborough
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Ross Lampert <r...@afm99.org> wrote:
> If you want to be removed from this discussion list, please email me at my
> regular email address r...@afm99.org. Thanks!
> Ross
> PS: I'll take care of you guys Jimmy & Tony, so you don't have to email me
> again on it.
> At 05:54 PM 2/11/2009, you wrote:
> Ross can you remove us from your mailing list, thank you.
> ------------------------------
> *From*: "Becky Bishop"
> *Date*: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:52:47 -0800
> *To*: <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject*: RE: We Want Your Brain
> No shit. I lived in LA a very long time (too long), but when I got started
> there were plenty of places to play and even get paid. All that came to a
> screeching halt in the early nineties when LA's active music scene suddenly
> dried up. From what I understand the Bay area dried up a long time before
> that and hasn't been happening since the early eighties. I'm finding since
> I arrived in Portland just a short time ago that there are a lot of joints
> to play up here and a lot them actually pay something. I can understand the
> importance of keeping it that way and making it better.
> Becky Bishop
> (503)430-0347 - Landline
> (503)781-0661 - Mobile
> beckybish...@comcast.net
> ------------------------------
> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com<clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>]
> *On Behalf Of *Greg Dawson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:35 PM
> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* RE: We Want Your Brain
> I understand – And it just keeps getting worse the further south you go.
> I tried LA briefly. That's an express route to insanity for a musician.
> Greg
> --
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com<clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
> ]*On Behalf Of *William Caruso
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:14 PM
> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: We Want Your Brain
> I live in the Bay Area. I've been working hard on getting all ages shit to
> start happening. I book at a bar every monday.. much more difficult than
> portland was in terms of who can play.
> -William Caruso
> --- On *Wed, 2/11/09, Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>* wrote:
> From: Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>
> Subject: We Want Your Brain
> To: "Club Musicians" <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 2:18 PM
> I noticed there hasn't been
> a post regarding the 'Fair Pay to Play'
> campaign for quite a while.
> That's too bad. We need your thoughts and
> suggestions.
> We are having regular
> meetings regarding the campaign, but seem to
> have record
> LOW
> attendance.
> At this time there are 143
> members of this group and yet at any given
> meeting so far there are
> about 5 to 8 people present. It's mostly the
> same 5 to 8 people working
> hard so that hundreds of Portland musicians
> may get paid something
> closer to what they are worth.
> If you are at all concerned
> about getting paid properly for the time
> and expense of performing
> your craft, I urge you to go to the 'Fair
I haven't been able to attend any meetings. But I understand what you are saying about bogging things down with meetings. What is really needed right now is a list of things that we can implement *right now* to give this campaign some much needed recognition. Press releases, NEWS coverage: hell, we can use the horrible economy as a way to get news coverage on TV about what we are trying to accomplish in Portland.
Has anyone actually communicated with the venues that ALREADY pay musicians? If so, have we given them something that they can proudly display at their venue indicating that they support local musicians? If not, why not? How much could a certificate designed by one of us, printed at Kinko's and framed in a dollar store frame cost?
What about radio? Has the radio project taken off? If not, why not start an internet radio that only features local artists? I have done this in the past with as ervice called Live365.com - but there are others.
What about encouraging participation by getting participants discounts at local music stores?
Listen, I have a lot of ideas - but it doesn't matter how good the idea is if it isn't put into practice. This is what I posted on Criagslist over 18 months ago. Surely some of these things are doable right now?
***************************
Make no mistake: The Portland Musicians Alliance is is not a political party of any kind. Its purpose is to facilitate professional musicians with venues that want to be known in Portland for providing customers with quality entertainment. To this end its members, whether individuals, bands or venues are expected to maintain a very specific work ethic and conduct. As much as we strive toward excellence, the Portland Musicians Alliance makes no guarantee
Rules for individual musicians
1. Must be over 16
2. Consider yourself a professional
3. Have pro gear
4. Must have sample of playing style (to provide in profile)
5. Must fill out profile
Bennies for individuals
1. Reach, network with PMA musicians
2. Be visible to PMA bands looking for musicians
3. Have access to musician friendly venues for performance purposes
Rules for musicians
1. Don't play for free
2. Over 16
3. Consider yourself professional
4. Have pro gear
5. Have CD and promo packet to submit
6. Must be willing to promote show with flyers (maybe we can work out a deal with Kinkos where card carrying members can get special discounts on copies)
7. When looking for other bands to fill a bill, PMA members must use bands from PMA exclusively whenever possible.
8. Show up to gigs when you say you will. Show up on time. Set up on time. Leave on time.
Bennies for bands
1. Discounts at Guitar Center (or better yet, a local music store, like Portland Music, etc...)
2. Booking assistance (Venues can post openings for shows, and PMA members can access the data and make contact with the venue)
3. Bookings at paying venues with PA and stage (PMA sponsored venues must pay PMA members. No exceptions)
4. Opportunity to play at exclusive PMA shows (We can, eventually, rent a venue and put on our own concert series to raise money for PMA)
5. Sponsorship (means they qualify to PMA guidelines)
6. The opportunity to arrange shows with other PMA bands
7. Get your music played on PMA's internet radio
Rules for venues
1. Must pay bands
2. No pay-to-play
3. Have PA system and stage
4. Must have sound person
5. Have regular booker we can reach
6. Must have a door man to collect money from everyone coming to the show
Bennies for venues
1. Quality music by pros
2. Recognition and endorsement from PMA as quality venue for entertainment
3. Recognition for not taking advantage of musicians
4. Free advertising on PMA's internet radio, reaching hundreds in Portland and abroad
THINGS TO DO:
1. Register domain portlandmusiciansalliance.org
2. Register and operate an internet radio with local bands only
3. bylaws
4. incorporate nonprofit
5. Bulletin board to network bands with shows and venues
6. Design certificate of participation for venues
7. Seek opportunities for musicians
8. create database of members
steve cheseborough wrote:
> Caruso and Bishop make excellent points about being busy. Those are > valid reasons, not "excuses," for not participating in the committee. > We all have to seek gigs, perform, practice, rehearse, promote, all > the other tasks of being struggling musicians. And some also have > other jobs, family responsibilities, social lives. It is unfair for > Greg to say "It's your money -- your life" as if being on this > committee brings more money and life fulfillment than all those other > activities. So far there is no evidence for that.
> I believe 100 percent in fair pay to play. But I tried working with > this committee for several months and its glacial pace just made the > investment of time and energy not worth it, to me. After about 10 > weeks of meetings the group was still not ready to talk to a reporter > who wanted to do a story on the campaign. Since then I have seen a few > little articles. But still not one club has signed on. And I think the > group has been meeting for more than a year now.
> Increasing attendance at meetings would only make the proceedings go > /slower,/ as there would be more viewpoints to consider and longer > discussions. I think the small group ought to get some good coverage, > get some clubs signed on, show some progress, and maybe us silent > sympathizers would then see that the boat is moving, and get onboard. > Thank you. Sincerely, SC
> -- > Steve Cheseborough
> www.opb.org/programs/artbeat/videos/view/67-Steve-Cheseborough > <http://www.opb.org/programs/artbeat/videos/view/67-Steve-Cheseborough>
> www.stevecheseborough.com <http://www.stevecheseborough.com>
> http://cdbaby.com/all/chezztone > www.myspace.com/stevecheseborough > <http://www.myspace.com/stevecheseborough>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Ross Lampert <r...@afm99.org > <mailto:r...@afm99.org>> wrote:
> If you want to be removed from this discussion list, please email
> me at my regular email address r...@afm99.org
> <mailto:r...@afm99.org>. Thanks!
> Ross
> PS: I'll take care of you guys Jimmy & Tony, so you don't have to
> email me again on it.
> At 05:54 PM 2/11/2009, you wrote:
>> Ross can you remove us from your mailing list, thank you.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From*: "Becky Bishop"
>> *Date*: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:52:47 -0800
>> *To*: <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>>
>> *Subject*: RE: We Want Your Brain
>> No shit. I lived in LA a very long time (too long), but when I
>> got started there were plenty of places to play and even get
>> paid. All that came to a screeching halt in the early nineties
>> when LA's active music scene suddenly dried up. From what I
>> understand the Bay area dried up a long time before that and
>> hasn't been happening since the early eighties. I'm finding
>> since I arrived in Portland just a short time ago that there are
>> a lot of joints to play up here and a lot them actually pay
>> something. I can understand the importance of keeping it that way
>> and making it better.
>> Becky Bishop
>> (503)430-0347 - Landline
>> (503)781-0661 - Mobile
>> beckybish...@comcast.net <mailto:beckybish...@comcast.net>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com> [
>> mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Greg Dawson
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:35 PM
>> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject:* RE: We Want Your Brain
>> I understand – And it just keeps getting worse the further south
>> you go.
>> I tried LA briefly. That's an express route to insanity for a
>> musician.
>> Greg
>> --
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com> [
>> mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com]*On Behalf Of *William Caruso
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:14 PM
>> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: We Want Your Brain
>> I live in the Bay Area. I've been working hard on getting all
>> ages shit to start happening. I book at a bar every monday.. much
>> more difficult than portland was in terms of who can play.
>> -William Caruso
>> --- On *Wed, 2/11/09, Probable Cause /<g...@probablecause.com
>> <mailto:g...@probablecause.com>>/* wrote:
>> From: Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com
>> <mailto:g...@probablecause.com>>
>> Subject: We Want Your Brain
>> To: "Club Musicians" <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>>
>> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 2:18 PM
>> I noticed there hasn't been
>> a post regarding the 'Fair Pay to Play'
>> campaign for quite a while.
>> That's too bad. We need your thoughts and
>> suggestions.
>> We are having regular
>> meetings regarding the campaign, but seem to
It definitely does not include benefits or fund raisers. In fact, I think that performing for charity can be a really good way to get exposure. Much more so than playing for free at some bar.
But again, those are things that I came up with almost two years ago. I put it out there NOT so that it could be accepted as is... I'd like to see if any of those ideas will help us get where we wish to get - I am all in favor of tossing out the things that don't work.
I won't requote them, but my those standards are low. For a union to work, you need to have a higher quality assurance, vs numbers. At least to start. Because for them to say "I'm going to treat you better than the MASSIVE GLUT of musicians in pdx", they need a bona fide reason. The star system I've heard about is NOT going to cut it.
> Bennies for individuals
Again, no requote (read your past emails), but there isn't much in the way of benefits. Why limit myself to only networking with this union's bands, when I have this city where every third person makes music, and every 10th person makes good music. I don't need bands looking for musicians; I play a lot of instruments in a lot of genres and have to turn down such opportunities more than take them. As far as musician friendly venues go... well, I find when I play booker right, I get that wherever I go. When I care more about the event than the money, then y'know, I'm doing a community service.
And that's one thing that bothers me for this union, kinda sounds like then doing a freebie would make you like a scab or something... and hey, sometimes I make money off stuff, sometimes I'm trying to add to the community I live in.
> Rules for musicians > 1. Don't play for free
As spoken above, this me no like.
> 3. Consider yourself professional
Anybody can consider themselves such... I think there should be something more tangible. A bedroom musician can consider themselves pro, if they utilize a certain perspective.
> 4. Have pro gear
Again, subjective. And honestly, BS. I've seen cats with pro gear make crap music, and humans with shit gear make absolutely amazing shite. Now it's sounding like a money game from the other side.
> 7. When looking for other bands to fill a bill, PMA members must use bands > from PMA exclusively whenever possible.
Whoa. Now, I understand this in theory, but honestly... with that fac that this is a startup, you're going to scare a lot of folks away with this; me included. I want to play shows with the people who will help me put the best event on. Sometimes those are going to be folks who aren't PMA. Especially now, when it has very little as far as PMA musicians go. You can't be that strict until you have some actual weight.
My suggestion: stop trying to create a full blown union. Start small. Getting people involved and into playing the game you want is most important, so work with baby steps. The steps you're using now demand that much more musician name/club name is attached, else there is no reason to restrict onesself in the reason you ask. Restrictions only work when there are actual benefits, and I don't see any from this union at this point. Start smaller.
> Bennies for bands > 1. Discounts at Guitar Center (or better yet, a local music store, like > Portland Music, etc...)
Anybody with an internet connection, half a brain and a couple hours or much less can find any gear Guitar Center sells for 1/2 what they do. I do it all the time. Portland Music might because nice because then at least you pay a bit more than you COULD get, but still less than others, and get to support a local business. Eff the Guitar Center idea, however, their prices can ALWAYS be beat and they are a mega box not local deal.
> 2. Booking assistance (Venues can post openings for shows, and PMA members > can access the data and make contact with the venue)
Honestly, this shit should be free and for everyone, not for some personal sect. But I guess whoever does it first no? Except nowadays, mr internet has made it so that booking shows is easier than anything, if you're only dealing with "need contact info/calendar". Are these venues going to give preference to PMA shows? What percentage? Booking is easy nowadays.
> 4. Opportunity to play at exclusive PMA shows (We can, eventually, rent a > venue and put on our own concert series to raise money for PMA)
Provided you get some buzz going and give musicians something more than just the usual hipsters that might show up to their shows, this could be an actual benefit. I somewhat wonder about what the actuality of this would be....
> 5. Sponsorship (means they qualify to PMA guidelines)
What does this mean? Sponsorship by whom? For how many? From what budget? Is any of this lined up or is it a dream at this point? Who decides who gets what sponsorships, and under what guidelines?
> 6. The opportunity to arrange shows with other PMA bands
Not the opportunity; you're required to remember? As stated above.
> 7. Get your music played on PMA's internet radio
For every band, there is an internet radio station. Some of them are actually good, though. Meaning they have listeners. Or even better, they have listeners that translate to sales. Are their subscriber/hits stats on this internet station? Are there links to purchase music that is heard? Any click stats?
> Rules for venues > 1. Must pay bands > 2. No pay-to-play > 3. Have PA system and stage > 4. Must have sound person > 5. Have regular booker we can reach > 6. Must have a door man to collect money from everyone coming to the show
For me, every show is different. I don't have one set I do over and over and over. Benefits of being a multi instrumentalist who has embraced the modern age, I suppose. But that means for me, I want every venue to be different, and some venues I want to play at.... don't have these things. Doesn't mean I don't want to play there.
> Bennies for venues > 1. Quality music by pros
Pros? Look at your membership requirements. The clubs will. I don't see how "pros" means anything other than a buzz word from all this.
> 2. Recognition and endorsement from PMA as quality venue for entertainment
PMA has to have weight FIRST before their endorsement means anything. Hey, I can endorse you too, want to pay me annual dues? ;)
> 3. Recognition for not taking advantage of musicians
Very idealistic. Which I mean in a negative and positive way. We live in a capitalist society. Law of supply and demand rules (combined with effective promotion/niche etc). There are a buttload of musicians, and less demand than offering. It's my feeling that if a musician can't struggle for a few years, then they were just a one hit wonder anyway. You get a pro musician by NOT giving folks "a living" just because "they're a musician". And you thresh the wheat, and you find what is left standing. For that is the strong and worthy stuff. Make a union that supports those who paid their dues via time and experience and making shit happen from love and talent, not just whoever has cash and "considers themselves pro" and you might find more takers.
I like the idea of a musicians' union. I don't like how it's being gone about. It feels based in a backwards looking view, circa 80's-90's (I'm randomly placing times based on personal affectations, and perhaps you feel something different from those times' mentality than I), vs the times we live in now. It feels like it comes from the right mindstate (as far as wanting to help musicians) but has a bad business model, and is not sustainable (and actually feels more divisive than conjoining) - at least on the level it is working from currently. Anyone else feel that way?
Nevyn Nowhere http://www.happyhumans.org Sad Music for Happy Humans Through the Looking Glass The Human Canvas Project and more....
Thanks, Nevyn for your input. Do you have anything to bring to the table which will work better now that you've pointed out that none of this is actually worth pursuing? A group of individuals are not going to do this without some sort of organization. Also, the baby-step idea is beyond stupid. The only reason we are even discussing this is because since the 90's, Portland musicians have stopped taking themselves seriously enough to consider what they do as an actual career and not something they do until they get that golden "real job." So, the idea behind what I posted twas to eliminate the wanker who sees music as a hobby.
As for the pro gear statement. I agree with that. A $2000 guitar isn't going to make you sound like you know how to play if you really don't... and if you do know how to play, you can even make a Johnson sound good. When I say pro-gear, I mean guitars whose input jacks don't cut out in the middle of your playing making horrible eardrum busting amp sounds because the duct tape got loose while you were jumping on the stage, or amplifiers that make noise when you aren't playing, etc...
If we don't take what we do seriously, then we shouldn't cry about it when others don't take us seriously enough to pay us for it.
> I won't requote them, but my those standards are low. For a union to > work, you need to have a higher quality assurance, vs numbers. At > least to start. Because for them to say "I'm going to treat you > better than the MASSIVE GLUT of musicians in pdx", they need a bona > fide reason. The star system I've heard about is NOT going to cut it.
> Bennies for individuals
> Again, no requote (read your past emails), but there isn't much in the > way of benefits. Why limit myself to only networking with this > union's bands, when I have this city where every third person makes > music, and every 10th person makes good music. I don't need bands > looking for musicians; I play a lot of instruments in a lot of genres > and have to turn down such opportunities more than take them. As far > as musician friendly venues go... well, I find when I play booker > right, I get that wherever I go. When I care more about the event > than the money, then y'know, I'm doing a community service.
> And that's one thing that bothers me for this union, kinda sounds like > then doing a freebie would make you like a scab or something... and > hey, sometimes I make money off stuff, sometimes I'm trying to add to > the community I live in.
> Rules for musicians
> 1. Don't play for free
> As spoken above, this me no like.
> 3. Consider yourself professional
> Anybody can consider themselves such... I think there should be > something more tangible. A bedroom musician can consider themselves > pro, if they utilize a certain perspective.
> 4. Have pro gear
> Again, subjective. And honestly, BS. I've seen cats with pro gear > make crap music, and humans with shit gear make absolutely amazing > shite. Now it's sounding like a money game from the other side.
> 7. When looking for other bands to fill a bill, PMA members must
> use bands from PMA exclusively whenever possible.
> Whoa. Now, I understand this in theory, but honestly... with that fac > that this is a startup, you're going to scare a lot of folks away with > this; me included. I want to play shows with the people who will help > me put the best event on. Sometimes those are going to be folks who > aren't PMA. Especially now, when it has very little as far as PMA > musicians go. You can't be that strict until you have some actual > weight.
> My suggestion: stop trying to create a full blown union. Start > small. Getting people involved and into playing the game you want is > most important, so work with baby steps. The steps you're using now > demand that much more musician name/club name is attached, else there > is no reason to restrict onesself in the reason you ask. Restrictions > only work when there are actual benefits, and I don't see any from > this union at this point. Start smaller.
> Bennies for bands
> 1. Discounts at Guitar Center (or better yet, a local music store,
> like Portland Music, etc...)
> Anybody with an internet connection, half a brain and a couple hours > or much less can find any gear Guitar Center sells for 1/2 what they > do. I do it all the time. Portland Music might because nice because > then at least you pay a bit more than you COULD get, but still less > than others, and get to support a local business. Eff the Guitar > Center idea, however, their prices can ALWAYS be beat and they are a > mega box not local deal.
> 2. Booking assistance (Venues can post openings for shows, and PMA
> members can access the data and make contact with the venue)
> Honestly, this shit should be free and for everyone, not for some > personal sect. But I guess whoever does it first no? Except > nowadays, mr internet has made it so that booking shows is easier than > anything, if you're only dealing with "need contact info/calendar".
> Are these venues going to give preference to PMA shows? What > percentage? Booking is easy nowadays.
> 4. Opportunity to play at exclusive PMA shows (We can, eventually,
> rent a venue and put on our own concert series to raise money for PMA)
> Provided you get some buzz going and give musicians something more > than just the usual hipsters that might show up to their shows, this > could be an actual benefit. I somewhat wonder about what the > actuality of this would be....
> 5. Sponsorship (means they qualify to PMA guidelines)
> What does this mean? Sponsorship by whom? For how many? From what > budget? Is any of this lined up or is it a dream at this point? Who > decides who gets what sponsorships, and under what guidelines?
> 6. The opportunity to arrange shows with other PMA bands
> Not the opportunity; you're required to remember? As stated above.
> 7. Get your music played on PMA's internet radio
> For every band, there is an internet radio station. Some of them are > actually good, though. Meaning they have listeners. Or even better, > they have listeners that translate to sales. Are their > subscriber/hits stats on this internet station? Are there links to > purchase music that is heard? Any click stats?
> Rules for venues
> 1. Must pay bands
> 2. No pay-to-play
> 3. Have PA system and stage
> 4. Must have sound person
> 5. Have regular booker we can reach
> 6. Must have a door man to collect money from everyone coming to
> the show
> For me, every show is different. I don't have one set I do over and > over and over. Benefits of being a multi instrumentalist who has > embraced the modern age, I suppose. But that means for me, I want > every venue to be different, and some venues I want to play at.... > don't have these things. Doesn't mean I don't want to play there.
> Bennies for venues
> 1. Quality music by pros
> Pros? Look at your membership requirements. The clubs will. I don't > see how "pros" means anything other than a buzz word from all this.
> 2. Recognition and endorsement from PMA as quality venue for
> entertainment
> PMA has to have weight FIRST before their endorsement means anything.
> Hey, I can endorse you too, want to pay me annual dues? ;)
> 3. Recognition for not taking advantage of musicians
> Very idealistic. Which I mean in a negative and positive way. We > live in a capitalist society. Law of supply and demand rules > (combined with effective promotion/niche etc). There are a buttload > of musicians, and less demand than offering. It's my feeling that if > a musician can't struggle for a few years, then they were just a one > hit wonder anyway. You get a pro musician by NOT giving folks "a > living" just because "they're a musician". And you thresh the wheat, > and you find what is left standing. For that is the strong and worthy > stuff. Make a union that supports those who paid their dues via time > and experience and making shit happen from love and talent, not just > whoever has cash and "considers themselves pro" and you might find > more takers.
> I like the idea of a musicians' union. I don't like how it's being > gone about. It feels based in a backwards looking view, circa > 80's-90's (I'm randomly placing times based on personal affectations, > and perhaps you feel something different from those times' mentality > than I), vs the times we live in now. It feels like it comes from the > right mindstate (as far as wanting to help musicians) but has a bad > business model, and is not sustainable (and actually feels more > divisive than conjoining) - at least on the level it is working from > currently. Anyone else feel that way?
> Nevyn Nowhere
> http://www.happyhumans.org > Sad Music for Happy Humans
> Through the Looking Glass
> The Human Canvas Project
> and more....
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 7:51 PM, pdxmusicalliance <
pdxmusicallia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Nevyn for your input. Do you have anything to bring to the table
> which will work better now that you've pointed out that none of this is
> actually worth pursuing?
I never said NONE of it is worth pursuing. Again, I said it's a valiant
effort, and I appreciate where you are coming from. It is the specific
things you have stated as your mission, at this time, that I have a problem
with.
I don't personally think there is a "one size fits all" solution, at least
not from a union standpoint. Unions only kind of worked for things more
life critical than music, and now are mostly dead even on those fronts.
Music is entertainment for most consumers of music, so they'll consume a
scab just as likely as a union member.
Again, I'm not saying "hey, look at my better idea"... I'm saying "the way
you're going about it isn't going to work, here's where and why". You can
look at those ideas, think about them and have your own outcome. I'm hoping
you might realize why no one shows up, and why this union isn't going
anywhere, and that I'm just voicing SOME of the problems that exist in your
gameplan.
And really, if the gameplan is about getting musicians/clubs/etc involved,
and thus far it's not happening.... I'm just saying "hey, maybe time to re
evaluate the game plan"... to take inputs like these from the kinds of folks
you're trying to get involved.
> A group of individuals are not going to do this without some sort of
> organization.
That is very true. However, organization does not equal the plan you have
organized. I'm all for organization; so far, I'm not for this one. It has
not reached beyond the "yes we all see this problem" to "I believe in what
is being done about it".
> Also, the baby-step idea is beyond stupid.
Really? I stopped short of calling your ideas that, even though I certainly
find them on a similar sentiment. Shall we have some common courtesy?
The only reason we are even discussing this is because since the 90's,
> Portland musicians have stopped taking themselves seriously enough to
> consider what they do as an actual career and not something they do until
> they get that golden "real job."
I'm a native, and I take offense at your "portland musicians do this"
statement. Elliott Smith, Sam Coomes, Daniel Riddle, etc and so forth and
beyond. These folks made a career of music while playing free shows galore,
getting stiffed, getting paid little, and having an effing day job.
Portland musicians are serious enough to make money... but you know what
REALLY makes a Portland musician, from a native? Somebody who does it
because they love it, they have to, and even if they never make a penny
they'll keep doing it. And does that mean they're not trying to make
pennies? Of course not. But it means that's more important that they
communicate their art; first and foremost. Yes, I have had conversations
with said individuals about these very topics in my heyday live music
attending years of youth. Are you telling me those folks didn't take
themselves seriously?
Again, if you are a musician who takes yourself seriously, imho, you will
realize that you don't get paid well from day one unless you are playing non
original music (meaning song covers or genre). ie you're not a professional
before you pay your dues. I still think this "anyone who considers
themselves a pro" measuring point as completely ruining any validity this
union might have. If you want PMA musicians to be paid a standard, you have
provide musicians that meet a standard. I don't see that in your criteria
now, and neither do the clubs. In this economy, you most certainly need to
give more to the clubs than you are now. How many clubs are closing down
how often in this town lately?
So, the idea behind what I posted twas to eliminate the wanker who sees
> music as a hobby.
I didn't see that in your specifications. At all. "Anyone who considers
themselves a pro/has pro gear". that is meaningless to me as far as
distinction between a hobbyist and "real portland musician" .
> As for the pro gear statement. I agree with that. A $2000 guitar isn't
> going to make you sound like you know how to play if you really don't... and
> if you do know how to play, you can even make a Johnson sound good. When I
> say pro-gear, I mean guitars whose input jacks don't cut out in the middle
> of your playing making horrible eardrum busting amp sounds because the duct
> tape got loose while you were jumping on the stage, or amplifiers that make
> noise when you aren't playing, etc...
That's nice that you mean that, but what you say can be interpreted very
loosely. How about "gear that works the way you intend it", or somesuch,
since that is what we're actually talking about.
> If we don't take what we do seriously, then we shouldn't cry about it when
> others don't take us seriously enough to pay us for it.
That's another big thing that bothers me about your approach, that money is
the only thing that means you take yourself seriously. Sometimes I make a
LOT of money on an event I throw/play at. Sometimes I play for free.
Sometimes I play for small amounts. To me, that makes me a serious
musician, because I get money wherever I can, but if there is an event that
doesn't pay me (much or at all) and I respect the event/musicians involved,
I'm happy to spread my name, which leads to internet sales/higher attendance
at pay shows/more album sales/merch sales et al. I'm happy to play music
and be part of a wonderful happening, have a great time, make new contacts
for paying shows (I can't tell you how many free shows I've played that,
within a month, resulted in a very nice paying gig or few), be a part of my
community, pay my dues and fight for my right to get paid.
I'd love to do it as part of a group. This group isn't that for me, for
reasons stated. I wonder what reasons others have? And if you'll address
their concerns as you have mine "if you're a PRO you want MONEY for EVERY
gig, life is black and white no greys, and btw, we have no standards other
than you pay us".
> I won't requote them, but my those standards are low. For a union to work,
> you need to have a higher quality assurance, vs numbers. At least to
> start. Because for them to say "I'm going to treat you better than the
> MASSIVE GLUT of musicians in pdx", they need a bona fide reason. The star
> system I've heard about is NOT going to cut it.
>> Bennies for individuals
> Again, no requote (read your past emails), but there isn't much in the way
> of benefits. Why limit myself to only networking with this union's bands,
> when I have this city where every third person makes music, and every 10th
> person makes good music. I don't need bands looking for musicians; I play a
> lot of instruments in a lot of genres and have to turn down such
> opportunities more than take them. As far as musician friendly venues go...
> well, I find when I play booker right, I get that wherever I go. When I
> care more about the event than the money, then y'know, I'm doing a community
> service.
> And that's one thing that bothers me for this union, kinda sounds like then
> doing a freebie would make you like a scab or something... and hey,
> sometimes I make money off stuff, sometimes I'm trying to add to the
> community I live in.
>> Rules for musicians
>> 1. Don't play for free
> As spoken above, this me no like.
>> 3. Consider yourself professional
> Anybody can consider themselves such... I think there should be something
> more tangible. A bedroom musician can consider themselves pro, if they
> utilize a certain perspective.
>> 4. Have pro gear
> Again, subjective. And honestly, BS. I've seen cats with pro gear make
> crap music, and humans with shit gear make absolutely amazing shite. Now
> it's sounding like a money game from the other side.
>> 7. When looking for other bands to fill a bill, PMA members must use bands
>> from PMA exclusively whenever possible.
> Whoa. Now, I understand this in theory, but honestly... with that fac that
> this is a startup, you're going to scare a lot of folks away with this; me
> included. I want to play shows with the people who will help me put the
> best event on. Sometimes those are going to be folks who aren't PMA.
> Especially now, when it has very little as far as PMA musicians go. You
> can't be that strict until you have some actual weight.
> My suggestion: stop trying to create a full blown union. Start small.
> Getting people involved and into playing the game you want is most
> important, so work with baby steps. The steps you're using now demand that
> much more musician name/club name is attached, else there is no reason to
> restrict onesself in the reason you ask. Restrictions only work when there
> are actual benefits, and I don't see any from this union at this point.
> Start smaller.
>> Bennies for bands
>> 1. Discounts at Guitar Center (or better yet, a local music store, like
>> Portland Music, etc...)
> Anybody with an internet connection, half a brain and a couple hours or
> much less can find any gear Guitar Center sells for 1/2 what they do. I do
> it all the time. Portland Music might because nice because then at least
> you pay a bit more than you COULD get, but still less than others, and
I understand. And I *know* that much of what I wrote might be impractical. But I wish to discuss what IS practical for us to do *right now.* I think that generally, we've done too little.
For the record: I don't play covers. I write original music. And no, I am not a member of the Musicians Union... but would be if I could afford it. I also play for free, because some times it is just fun, or the venue is struggling to stay open, or because I do it for charity, etc... it isn't ALL about money. It is about not being a sap. Lastly, if I say an idea is stupid, it is not the same thing as me saying YOU are stupid.
That said: Unions are pretty relevant. I can tell you right now, with certainty, that my union fights for my wages and my benefits. Without them, we would be exploited like people are in third world countries. When they raise wages for their members, they have the added effect of improving conditions for NON members because companies fear that if they don't keep up with union pay they will a) loose talent to union jobs, or b) their employees may form an union.
Things are changing. Look for unions to be playing a HUGE role in the American labor force in the next few years. And they SHOULD be supported. If you get holidays off, get paid over time for working over 40 hours a week and enjoy paid holidays, you can thank the unions for that since many of the labor laws that you and I take for granted today were championed by unions.
But what I was suggesting wasn't necessarily another union. There is already a Musicians Union. They have offered to help us and know the ropes much better than most of us because they have been doing it for years. I am only suggesting working with them. Hell, they usually get a bunch of flack for not doing anything for us independent songwriters and when they step up to assist us all we can do is to criticize. We have to be a part of the solution and take help where we can.
The idea isn't to become union or scab... and I do agree with you about people who listen to music wont care whether we are in the union or not. But I think that treating ourselves with respect, and conducting business as though we are actually worth something is the first step toward communicating to people that we provide a benefit to those venues that cash in on our being there, and that we therefore shouldn't be expected to be there for free.
As for the game plan not happening yet. It's never been tried. There have been some efforts from the union to help us get started and they haven't got much support from the very people they are trying to help: us. In my case, I am so busy trying to keep a roof over my head and food on the table that I haven't had the luxury of time. Not making excuses, just saying it like it is.
I didn't mean to call your idea stupid. I was simply pointing out that the baby steps is exactly what we have been doing for about a year and nothing has happened as a result of that. I am suggesting it is time to *&$% or get off the pot.
As for the example of Portland musicians you made, I am a fan of most of those people. And like them, make no mistake that if I didn't love music, and felt like I could help myself to doing something else I wouldn't be trying to convince anyone that we should be compensated for it. I love music SO much that I want to do nothing but music for the rest of my life. And unless I want to live under the Burnside Bridge, I have better figure out a way to make it pay the rent. I am pretty burnt out on the "do it cause you love it and stop moaning about being taken advantage of" arguments. The only people who say that are the very folks who either don't want to make music a career or know they can't.
Money is necessary. As you yourself said we live in a capitalist country and no one is going to give us free strings, cables, work on our amps and replace our electronics when we drop bear on it. If I were a surgeon my tools would be my scalpels, if I were a wood worker my hammer and my saw... and in every case, whatever my chosen career was, I'd have the best tools to help me to do my job in the best, most professional manner possible. These tools are not cheap. If, on the other hand, wood working was my hobby and my REAL job was massage therapy then I would probably buy cheap chisels, saws and hammers, and use the earnings to buy the best massage oil I could. ;)
In any case, I am more interested in figuring out what happens next than I am in arguing. If some one has a plan that we can put into action now, or if we'll sit around and watch Rome burn like we have since the 90's.
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 7:51 PM, pdxmusicalliance > <pdxmusicallia...@gmail.com <mailto:pdxmusicallia...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Thanks, Nevyn for your input. Do you have anything to bring to the
> table which will work better now that you've pointed out that none
> of this is actually worth pursuing?
> I never said NONE of it is worth pursuing. Again, I said it's a > valiant effort, and I appreciate where you are coming from. It is the > specific things you have stated as your mission, at this time, that I > have a problem with.
> I don't personally think there is a "one size fits all" solution, at > least not from a union standpoint. Unions only kind of worked for > things more life critical than music, and now are mostly dead even on > those fronts. Music is entertainment for most consumers of music, so > they'll consume a scab just as likely as a union member.
> Again, I'm not saying "hey, look at my better idea"... I'm saying "the > way you're going about it isn't going to work, here's where and why".
> You can look at those ideas, think about them and have your own > outcome. I'm hoping you might realize why no one shows up, and why > this union isn't going anywhere, and that I'm just voicing SOME of the > problems that exist in your gameplan.
> And really, if the gameplan is about getting musicians/clubs/etc > involved, and thus far it's not happening.... I'm just saying "hey, > maybe time to re evaluate the game plan"... to take inputs like these > from the kinds of folks you're trying to get involved.
> A group of individuals are not going to do this without some sort
> of organization.
> That is very true. However, organization does not equal the plan you > have organized. I'm all for organization; so far, I'm not for this > one. It has not reached beyond the "yes we all see this problem" to > "I believe in what is being done about it".
> Also, the baby-step idea is beyond stupid.
> Really? I stopped short of calling your ideas that, even though I > certainly find them on a similar sentiment. Shall we have some common > courtesy?
> The only reason we are even discussing this is because since the
> 90's, Portland musicians have stopped taking themselves seriously
> enough to consider what they do as an actual career and not
> something they do until they get that golden "real job."
> I'm a native, and I take offense at your "portland musicians do this" > statement. Elliott Smith, Sam Coomes, Daniel Riddle, etc and so forth > and beyond. These folks made a career of music while playing free > shows galore, getting stiffed, getting paid little, and having an > effing day job. Portland musicians are serious enough to make > money... but you know what REALLY makes a Portland musician, from a > native? Somebody who does it because they love it, they have to, and > even if they never make a penny they'll keep doing it. And does that > mean they're not trying to make pennies? Of course not. But it means > that's more important that they communicate their art; first and > foremost. Yes, I have had conversations with said individuals about > these very topics in my heyday live music attending years of youth. > Are you telling me those folks didn't take themselves seriously?
> Again, if you are a musician who takes yourself seriously, imho, you > will realize that you don't get paid well from day one unless you are > playing non original music (meaning song covers or genre). ie you're > not a professional before you pay your dues. I still think this > "anyone who considers themselves a pro" measuring point as completely > ruining any validity this union might have. If you want PMA musicians > to be paid a standard, you have provide musicians that meet a > standard. I don't see that in your criteria now, and neither do the > clubs. In this economy, you most certainly need to give more to the > clubs than you are now. How many clubs are closing down how often in > this town lately?
> So, the idea behind what I posted twas to eliminate the wanker who
> sees music as a hobby.
> I didn't see that in your specifications. At all. "Anyone who > considers themselves a pro/has pro gear". that is meaningless to me > as far as distinction between a hobbyist and "real portland musician" .
> As for the pro gear statement. I agree with that. A $2000 guitar
> isn't going to make you sound like you know how to play if you
> really don't... and if you do know how to play, you can even make
> a Johnson sound good. When I say pro-gear, I mean guitars whose
> input jacks don't cut out in the middle of your playing making
> horrible eardrum busting amp sounds because the duct tape got
> loose while you were jumping on the stage, or amplifiers that make
> noise when you aren't playing, etc...
> That's nice that you mean that, but what you say can be interpreted > very loosely. How about "gear that works the way you intend it", or
I don't know of anyone in LA that is offering up studio time on spec at this
time. That hasn't happened in a long time. However there are places that
offer really cheap deals. When I recorded my album I paid for studio time,
but then I had good production partners that knew exactly where to go, not
to mention I had the budget to record at the time, and I was prepared and
hired the very best of studio rats that got their stuff down on the first
take, myself included. You can always find someone on Craigslist that is
offering super low prices on studio time. The deal is you have to get in
and out of the studio quickly. That means really being prepared and not
fucking around with indecision and insecurities during the recording
process. Engineers pick up on that and get real impatient. Pre-production is
essential when you know you have limited time to get the job done. In other
words don't pull a Toni Dodd in the studio. I can tell you that Toni is
notorious for not being prepared, being very indecisive as to what she
wants and wasting a lot of time in the studio drinking Jack Daniels, smoking
dope and fucking around, which is why her recordings sound like amateur
crap.
Becky Bishop (503)430-0347 - Landline (503)781-0661 - Mobile
beckybish...@comcast.net
_____
From: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of steve cheseborough
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:14 PM
To: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: We Want Your Brain
Caruso and Bishop make excellent points about being busy. Those are valid
reasons, not "excuses," for not participating in the committee. We all have
to seek gigs, perform, practice, rehearse, promote, all the other tasks of
being struggling musicians. And some also have other jobs, family
responsibilities, social lives. It is unfair for Greg to say "It's your
money -- your life" as if being on this committee brings more money and life
fulfillment than all those other activities. So far there is no evidence for
that.
I believe 100 percent in fair pay to play. But I tried working with this
committee for several months and its glacial pace just made the investment
of time and energy not worth it, to me. After about 10 weeks of meetings the
group was still not ready to talk to a reporter who wanted to do a story on
the campaign. Since then I have seen a few little articles. But still not
one club has signed on. And I think the group has been meeting for more than
a year now. Increasing attendance at meetings would only make the proceedings go slower,
as there would be more viewpoints to consider and longer discussions. I
think the small group ought to get some good coverage, get some clubs signed
on, show some progress, and maybe us silent sympathizers would then see that
the boat is moving, and get onboard. Thank you. Sincerely, SC
-- Steve Cheseborough
www.opb.org/programs/artbeat/videos/view/67-Steve-Cheseborough www.stevecheseborough.com http://cdbaby.com/all/chezztone www.myspace.com/stevecheseborough
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Ross Lampert <r...@afm99.org> wrote:
If you want to be removed from this discussion list, please email me at my
regular email address r...@afm99.org. Thanks!
Ross
PS: I'll take care of you guys Jimmy & Tony, so you don't have to email me
again on it.
At 05:54 PM 2/11/2009, you wrote:
Ross can you remove us from your mailing list, thank you.
_____
From: "Becky Bishop" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:52:47 -0800
To: <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: We Want Your Brain
No shit. I lived in LA a very long time (too long), but when I got started
there were plenty of places to play and even get paid. All that came to a
screeching halt in the early nineties when LA's active music scene suddenly
dried up. From what I understand the Bay area dried up a long time before
that and hasn't been happening since the early eighties. I'm finding since
I arrived in Portland just a short time ago that there are a lot of joints
to play up here and a lot them actually pay something. I can understand the
importance of keeping it that way and making it better.
Becky Bishop (503)430-0347 - Landline (503)781-0661 - Mobile
beckybish...@comcast.net
_____
From: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [
<mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Dawson
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:35 PM
To: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: We Want Your Brain
I understand - And it just keeps getting worse the further south you go.
I tried LA briefly. That's an express route to insanity for a musician.
<mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of William Caruso
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:14 PM
To: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: We Want Your Brain
I live in the Bay Area. I've been working hard on getting all ages shit to
start happening. I book at a bar every monday.. much more difficult than
portland was in terms of who can play.
-William Caruso
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com> wrote:
From: Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>
Subject: We Want Your Brain
To: "Club Musicians" <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 2:18 PM
I noticed there hasn't been
a post regarding the 'Fair Pay to Play'
campaign for quite a while.
That's too bad. We need your thoughts and
suggestions.
We are having regular
meetings regarding the campaign, but seem to
have record
LOW
attendance.
At this time there are 143
members of this group and yet at any given
meeting so far there are
about 5 to 8 people present. It's mostly the
same 5 to 8 people working
hard so that hundreds of Portland musicians
may get paid something
closer to what they are worth.
If you are at all concerned
about getting paid properly for the time
and expense of performing
your craft, I urge you to go to the 'Fair
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 9:30 PM, pdxmusicalliance <
pdxmusicallia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I understand. And I *know* that much of what I wrote might be impractical.
> But I wish to discuss what IS practical for us to do *right now.* I think
> that generally, we've done too little.
Right, so when impracticalities are mentioned, you might garner more
supporters if you addressed those topics, rather than told people "that's
stupid" and ignored the idea brought up. You're not building much of a
community otherwise.
> For the record: I don't play covers. I write original music. And no, I am
> not a member of the Musicians Union... but would be if I could afford it.
I'm curious, why? Do you love the idea? Or the ideas that are put into
practice? I am genuinely curious.
> I also play for free, because some times it is just fun, or the venue is
> struggling to stay open, or because I do it for charity, etc... it isn't ALL
> about money. It is about not being a sap. Lastly, if I say an idea is
> stupid, it is not the same thing as me saying YOU are stupid.
No, but again, I don't have much respect for the ideas you presented. I
find them naive and child like in their ignorance. However, I didn't feel
the need to get that literal or specified on what I felt; I felt it was more
important to talk about the things that made me think that. ie let's talk
about ideas, not try to label so easily. Let's especially not call
someone's idea stupid, childlike or ignorant, even if we disagree and think
it's such. That's part of common courtesy. When you eschew it, so do I.
Until you do, I give it.
So, ball is in your court on that topic.
> That said: Unions are pretty relevant. I can tell you right now, with
> certainty, that my union fights for my wages and my benefits.
What union are you a part of? I've worked both private and union carpentry,
as well as other industries much less so, and find benefits to be
negligible. You get paid more, when you work, but work less. You get some
more freedoms, and some more bureaucracy (which to me, is anti feeling
free). Positives and negatives. And life industry unions had serious
relevancy once. Nowadays, they're more like I stated... positives and
negatives... one isn't really better than the other (a union is just another
bureaucracy with fat cats trying to feed just like any other) these days.
To me at the least. I respect if you disagree. Share with me why you
personal experience is different, though, perhaps?
> Without them, we would be exploited like people are in third world
> countries.
We are. Our country is rich, we are poor. In money and community. We
have baubles, but we're losing humanity. Those people paid pennies a day,
many of them take those pennies a day and live mor erich lives than you or
I, if one considers human connection more important than the latest trinket
(I do). If you speak of india, well fuck, they've now got the 10 dollar
computer, or at least their government says it'll be there in a year. They
already have the 1000$ car. Let's keep the generic statements with no
credence to a minimum eh? I will if you will. Workers will be treated like
shit with or without unions without social change.
> When they raise wages for their members, they have the added effect of
> improving conditions for NON members because companies fear that if they
> don't keep up with union pay they will a) loose talent to union jobs, or b)
> their employees may form an union.
So hey, join a union, pay your dues to make things better for those who
don't pay their dues. Guess I'll just not pay and reap the benefits.
Except I don't see those benefits from this union. Stay on topic. We're
not talking about the unions that DO still have SOME power because of
numbers and valuable employees/contracts et al. ie ones around for years.
This one is brand new, with no power, lots of desire, lots of ideal, lots of
spunk but... at this point, no power and, in my opinion, not a viable plan.
Yet. I'm here because I do have hope that the facilitators are flexible and
will change.
> Things are changing. Look for unions to be playing a HUGE role in the
> American labor force in the next few years.
Details. References, else such comments are meaningless.
> And they SHOULD be supported.
Why again? When they have a valid business plan/plan of action/something
that looks viable, I will. Until then, there are a million great ideas with
no substantial method to bring such ideas to fruition. I can support them
all out of idealist causes and go crazy in a week or support ones that have
more than just desire. Thus far I've not heard them listen to any ideas
from those other than who say "yeah man, let's do this your way!". That
sounds like somebody wanting to be president of a club, not someone wanting
to coagulate a community.
> There is already a Musicians Union.
Really? Where? To be a union you have to have clout, they don't have it
yet. That's part of what this email chain was about (when started by those
involved). Making a pretty name and webpage is nice, getting your licenses
is better; but until you have the people and the businesses, you aren't a
union.
> They have offered to help us and know the ropes much better than most of us
> because they have been doing it for years.
So have I; I haven't seen anything new from them.
> I am only suggesting working with them.
I'd love to, but they have to be flexible. There is a reason it hasn't gone
anywhere yet.
> The idea isn't to become union or scab... and I do agree with you about
> people who listen to music wont care whether we are in the union or not. But
> I think that treating ourselves with respect, and conducting business as
> though we are actually worth something is the first step toward
> communicating to people that we provide a benefit to those venues that cash
> in on our being there, and that we therefore shouldn't be expected to be
> there for free.
Idealism is great, look at what the 60's did to us. I'm an idealistic
realist.
> As for the game plan not happening yet. It's never been tried.
The game plan being tried currently is to get people involved. THAT is not
working. You don't have a union without people. Hey guys, change your game
plan. Listen to those you want to be a part of your community. Otherwise
it's a dictatorship.
> I didn't mean to call your idea stupid.
Pay attention to your words "(sic)... is beyond stupid". What did you think
you were saying?
> I was simply pointing out that the baby steps is exactly what we have been
> doing for about a year and nothing has happened as a result of that. I am
> suggesting it is time to *&$% or get off the pot.
The baby steps this musicians' union has been making are in NO WAY the type
I am speaking of. Those are dipping toes into wanting to be grandiose. I'm
saying, start as a peasant, become a duke, an earl, a prince, etc. Work
your way up the ladder. When you talk and demand things from your possible
constituents like you're big fish, if you can't provide big fish, why would
anyone put up with such ego?
> As for the example of Portland musicians you made, I am a fan of most of
> those people.
Great, good for you. I don't listen to them much anymore, but they formed
where I come from. Them then.
> Money is necessary.
To a point. Try to make money off music, but ultimately, make music. I'll
be fucked if I'm not going to play a free show when I have the time slot
available because some union tells me not to. I won't do it for anyone, but
if I respect the event/promoter/musicians/etc... sometimes free gigs are
done as favors for folks who hook you up with seriously paid gigs later or
before. Sometimes they're to an audience that is actively seeking to pay
big bucks to musicians, and it's more like an audition. Sometimes it's to
make music with folks you think are just top notch. Sometimes other
things. Point being, if you're going to tell me I can't do all this, you
had better be giving something serious in return. Because I can make money
and do all that without the union.
> In any case, I am more interested in figuring out what happens next than I
> am in arguing. If some one has a plan that we can put into action now, or if
> we'll sit around and watch Rome burn like we have since the 90's.
Great, then when people present ideas/problems with existing ideas, utilize
them as discussion points instead of calling them stupid. Discuss instead
of attack from a personal view. Then I'll believe you're interested in what
happens next.
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 7:51 PM, pdxmusicalliance <
> pdxmusicallia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thanks, Nevyn for your input. Do you have anything to bring to the table
>> which will work better now that you've pointed out that none of this is
>> actually worth pursuing?
> I never said NONE of it is worth pursuing. Again, I said it's a valiant
> effort, and I appreciate where you are coming from. It is the specific
> things you have stated as your mission, at this time, that I have a problem
> with.
> I don't personally think there is a "one size fits all" solution, at least
> not from a union standpoint. Unions only kind of worked for things more
> life critical than music, and now are mostly dead even on those fronts.
> Music is entertainment for most consumers of music, so they'll consume a
> scab just as likely as a union member.
> Again, I'm not saying "hey, look at my better idea"... I'm saying "the way
> you're going about it isn't going to work, here's where and why". You can
Whoops, really sorry about this. I meant to sent it to someone else. I'm
must be suffering from oldheimers disease.
Becky Bishop (503)430-0347 - Landline (503)781-0661 - Mobile
beckybish...@comcast.net
_____
From: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Becky Bishop
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:57 PM
To: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: We Want Your Brain
I don't know of anyone in LA that is offering up studio time on spec at this
time. That hasn't happened in a long time. However there are places that
offer really cheap deals. When I recorded my album I paid for studio time,
but then I had good production partners that knew exactly where to go, not
to mention I had the budget to record at the time, and I was prepared and
hired the very best of studio rats that got their stuff down on the first
take, myself included. You can always find someone on Craigslist that is
offering super low prices on studio time. The deal is you have to get in
and out of the studio quickly. That means really being prepared and not
fucking around with indecision and insecurities during the recording
process. Engineers pick up on that and get real impatient. Pre-production is
essential when you know you have limited time to get the job done. In other
words don't pull a Toni Dodd in the studio. I can tell you that Toni is
notorious for not being prepared, being very indecisive as to what she
wants and wasting a lot of time in the studio drinking Jack Daniels, smoking
dope and fucking around, which is why her recordings sound like amateur
crap.
Becky Bishop (503)430-0347 - Landline (503)781-0661 - Mobile
beckybish...@comcast.net
_____
From: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of steve cheseborough
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:14 PM
To: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: We Want Your Brain
Caruso and Bishop make excellent points about being busy. Those are valid
reasons, not "excuses," for not participating in the committee. We all have
to seek gigs, perform, practice, rehearse, promote, all the other tasks of
being struggling musicians. And some also have other jobs, family
responsibilities, social lives. It is unfair for Greg to say "It's your
money -- your life" as if being on this committee brings more money and life
fulfillment than all those other activities. So far there is no evidence for
that.
I believe 100 percent in fair pay to play. But I tried working with this
committee for several months and its glacial pace just made the investment
of time and energy not worth it, to me. After about 10 weeks of meetings the
group was still not ready to talk to a reporter who wanted to do a story on
the campaign. Since then I have seen a few little articles. But still not
one club has signed on. And I think the group has been meeting for more than
a year now. Increasing attendance at meetings would only make the proceedings go slower,
as there would be more viewpoints to consider and longer discussions. I
think the small group ought to get some good coverage, get some clubs signed
on, show some progress, and maybe us silent sympathizers would then see that
the boat is moving, and get onboard. Thank you. Sincerely, SC
-- Steve Cheseborough
www.opb.org/programs/artbeat/videos/view/67-Steve-Cheseborough www.stevecheseborough.com http://cdbaby.com/all/chezztone www.myspace.com/stevecheseborough
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Ross Lampert <r...@afm99.org> wrote:
If you want to be removed from this discussion list, please email me at my
regular email address r...@afm99.org. Thanks!
Ross
PS: I'll take care of you guys Jimmy & Tony, so you don't have to email me
again on it.
At 05:54 PM 2/11/2009, you wrote:
Ross can you remove us from your mailing list, thank you.
_____
From: "Becky Bishop" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:52:47 -0800
To: <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: We Want Your Brain
No shit. I lived in LA a very long time (too long), but when I got started
there were plenty of places to play and even get paid. All that came to a
screeching halt in the early nineties when LA's active music scene suddenly
dried up. From what I understand the Bay area dried up a long time before
that and hasn't been happening since the early eighties. I'm finding since
I arrived in Portland just a short time ago that there are a lot of joints
to play up here and a lot them actually pay something. I can understand the
importance of keeping it that way and making it better.
Becky Bishop (503)430-0347 - Landline (503)781-0661 - Mobile
beckybish...@comcast.net
_____
From: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [
<mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Dawson
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:35 PM
To: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: We Want Your Brain
I understand - And it just keeps getting worse the further south you go.
I tried LA briefly. That's an express route to insanity for a musician.
<mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of William Caruso
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:14 PM
To: clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: We Want Your Brain
I live in the Bay Area. I've been working hard on getting all ages shit to
start happening. I book at a bar every monday.. much more difficult than
portland was in terms of who can play.
-William Caruso
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com> wrote:
From: Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>
Subject: We Want Your Brain
To: "Club Musicians" <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 2:18 PM
I noticed there hasn't been
a post regarding the 'Fair Pay to Play'
campaign for quite a while.
That's too bad. We need your thoughts and
suggestions.
We are having regular
meetings regarding the campaign, but seem to
have record
LOW
attendance.
At this time there are 143
members of this group and yet at any given
meeting so far there are
about 5 to 8 people present. It's mostly the
same 5 to 8 people working
hard so that hundreds of Portland musicians
may get paid something
closer to what they are worth.
If you are at all concerned
about getting paid properly for the time
and expense of performing
your craft, I urge you to go to the 'Fair
I want to clarify that the idea called Portland Music Alliance is not a
reality being worked on to the best of my knowledge. Please correct me if
I'm wrong here. The Musicians Union (AFM) Local 99, however is in fact
working on the problem of fair pay in the "club" scene. We have been
meeting on it for about a year and are continuing to work on it. We will be
officially launching our website very soon and it will detail our proposed
solution to this conundrum.
Paul (Nevyn), if you want to have input into the process, the only way to do
that is to get involved. You make a paradoxical point when you say we're
not listening to you, but you'll only get involved when we listen to you.
How should we listen to you when you have not said anything this whole time
and are only now saying that you're not being listened to? We've invited
you (and the community as a whole) to engage multiple times, as you're still
welcome to do, but we can't read minds, so if you choose to stay on the
sidelines, you can't say you were not invited to give input. Those who have
engaged are shaping this campaign, not me or Bruce (Local 99's Pres) or any
nefarious behind the scenes "union guy". Quite simply, YOU are the U in
Union, and as cheesy as that is, we take the idea to heart and let those who
are involved make the decisions in a democratic manner.
Also, the idea that anyone at Local 99 is a "fat cat" is just hystarical.
We have a grand total of 4 people working at the office. One works half
time, one works 3/4 time both of whom go above and beyond. So we actually
only have 2 full time employees who both work more than full time. (What's
the timestamp on this email?) If you think any of us are getting rich on
the dues money (ranging from $13.92 - $17.25 per month) then you're fooling
yourself. Please respect that the work we do is for the betterment of the
community as directed by the membership and community as a whole. We have
gone out of our way to be ultra inclusive in this process and I sincerely
hope that you will take that into account when you pass judgement on what we
do. I once again invite you to participate so that you can help form where
this goes and you can see the progress happen.
Peace,
Ross
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Becky Bishop <beckybish...@comcast.net>wrote:
> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> clubmusicians@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Becky Bishop
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:57 PM
> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* RE: We Want Your Brain
> I don't know of anyone in LA that is offering up studio time on spec at
> this time. That hasn't happened in a long time. However there are places
> that offer really cheap deals. When I recorded my album I paid for studio
> time, but then I had good production partners that knew exactly where to go,
> not to mention I had the budget to record at the time, and I was prepared
> and hired the very best of studio rats that got their stuff down on the
> first take, myself included. You can always find someone on Craigslist that
> is offering super low prices on studio time. The deal is you have to get in
> and out of the studio quickly. That means really being prepared and not
> fucking around with indecision and insecurities during the recording
> process. Engineers pick up on that and get real impatient. Pre-production is
> essential when you know you have limited time to get the job done. In other
> words don't pull a Toni Dodd in the studio. I can tell you that Toni is
> notorious for not being prepared, being very indecisive as to what she
> wants and wasting a lot of time in the studio drinking Jack Daniels, smoking
> dope and fucking around, which is why her recordings sound like amateur
> crap.
> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> clubmusicians@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *steve cheseborough
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:14 PM
> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: We Want Your Brain
> Caruso and Bishop make excellent points about being busy. Those are valid
> reasons, not "excuses," for not participating in the committee. We all have
> to seek gigs, perform, practice, rehearse, promote, all the other tasks of
> being struggling musicians. And some also have other jobs, family
> responsibilities, social lives. It is unfair for Greg to say "It's your
> money -- your life" as if being on this committee brings more money and life
> fulfillment than all those other activities. So far there is no evidence for
> that.
> I believe 100 percent in fair pay to play. But I tried working with this
> committee for several months and its glacial pace just made the investment
> of time and energy not worth it, to me. After about 10 weeks of meetings the
> group was still not ready to talk to a reporter who wanted to do a story on
> the campaign. Since then I have seen a few little articles. But still not
> one club has signed on. And I think the group has been meeting for more than
> a year now.
> Increasing attendance at meetings would only make the proceedings go *
> slower,* as there would be more viewpoints to consider and longer
> discussions. I think the small group ought to get some good coverage, get
> some clubs signed on, show some progress, and maybe us silent sympathizers
> would then see that the boat is moving, and get onboard. Thank you.
> Sincerely, SC
> --
> Steve Cheseborough
> www.opb.org/programs/artbeat/videos/view/67-Steve-Cheseborough > www.stevecheseborough.com > http://cdbaby.com/all/chezztone > www.myspace.com/stevecheseborough
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Ross Lampert <r...@afm99.org> wrote:
> If you want to be removed from this discussion list, please email me at my
> regular email address r...@afm99.org. Thanks!
> Ross
> PS: I'll take care of you guys Jimmy & Tony, so you don't have to email me
> again on it.
> At 05:54 PM 2/11/2009, you wrote:
> Ross can you remove us from your mailing list, thank you.
> ------------------------------
> *From*: "Becky Bishop"
> *Date*: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:52:47 -0800
> *To*: <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject*: RE: We Want Your Brain
> No shit. I lived in LA a very long time (too long), but when I got started
> there were plenty of places to play and even get paid. All that came to a
> screeching halt in the early nineties when LA's active music scene suddenly
> dried up. From what I understand the Bay area dried up a long time before
> that and hasn't been happening since the early eighties. I'm finding since
> I arrived in Portland just a short time ago that there are a lot of joints
> to play up here and a lot them actually pay something. I can understand the
> importance of keeping it that way and making it better.
> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com<clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>]
> *On Behalf Of *Greg Dawson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:35 PM
> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* RE: We Want Your Brain
> I understand – And it just keeps getting worse the further south you go.
> I tried LA briefly. That's an express route to insanity for a musician.
> Greg
> --
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com<clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
> ]*On Behalf Of *William Caruso
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:14 PM
> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: We Want Your Brain
> I live in the Bay Area. I've been working hard on getting all ages shit to
> start happening. I book at a bar every monday.. much more difficult than
> portland was in terms of who can play.
> -William Caruso
> --- On *Wed, 2/11/09, Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>* wrote:
> From: Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>
> Subject: We Want Your Brain
> To: "Club Musicians" <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 2:18 PM
Oh, btw, the dues is paid quarterly, so I want to pull back the numbers I
stated regarding dues...they should read $41.75 - $51.75 per quarter.
Quarter 1 is Jan - Mar, Q2 is Apr - Jun and so forth. Sorry for any
confusion and my mis-statement.
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Ross Lampert <r...@afm99.org> wrote:
> I want to clarify that the idea called Portland Music Alliance is not a
> reality being worked on to the best of my knowledge. Please correct me if
> I'm wrong here. The Musicians Union (AFM) Local 99, however is in fact
> working on the problem of fair pay in the "club" scene. We have been
> meeting on it for about a year and are continuing to work on it. We will be
> officially launching our website very soon and it will detail our proposed
> solution to this conundrum.
> Paul (Nevyn), if you want to have input into the process, the only way to
> do that is to get involved. You make a paradoxical point when you say we're
> not listening to you, but you'll only get involved when we listen to you.
> How should we listen to you when you have not said anything this whole time
> and are only now saying that you're not being listened to? We've invited
> you (and the community as a whole) to engage multiple times, as you're still
> welcome to do, but we can't read minds, so if you choose to stay on the
> sidelines, you can't say you were not invited to give input. Those who have
> engaged are shaping this campaign, not me or Bruce (Local 99's Pres) or any
> nefarious behind the scenes "union guy". Quite simply, YOU are the U in
> Union, and as cheesy as that is, we take the idea to heart and let those who
> are involved make the decisions in a democratic manner.
> Also, the idea that anyone at Local 99 is a "fat cat" is just hystarical.
> We have a grand total of 4 people working at the office. One works half
> time, one works 3/4 time both of whom go above and beyond. So we actually
> only have 2 full time employees who both work more than full time. (What's
> the timestamp on this email?) If you think any of us are getting rich on
> the dues money (ranging from $13.92 - $17.25 per month) then you're fooling
> yourself. Please respect that the work we do is for the betterment of the
> community as directed by the membership and community as a whole. We have
> gone out of our way to be ultra inclusive in this process and I sincerely
> hope that you will take that into account when you pass judgement on what we
> do. I once again invite you to participate so that you can help form where
> this goes and you can see the progress happen.
> Peace,
> Ross
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Becky Bishop <beckybish...@comcast.net>wrote:
>> Whoops, really sorry about this. I meant to sent it to someone else. I'm
>> must be suffering from oldheimers disease.
>> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>> clubmusicians@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Becky Bishop
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:57 PM
>> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* RE: We Want Your Brain
>> I don't know of anyone in LA that is offering up studio time on spec at
>> this time. That hasn't happened in a long time. However there are places
>> that offer really cheap deals. When I recorded my album I paid for studio
>> time, but then I had good production partners that knew exactly where to go,
>> not to mention I had the budget to record at the time, and I was prepared
>> and hired the very best of studio rats that got their stuff down on the
>> first take, myself included. You can always find someone on Craigslist that
>> is offering super low prices on studio time. The deal is you have to get in
>> and out of the studio quickly. That means really being prepared and not
>> fucking around with indecision and insecurities during the recording
>> process. Engineers pick up on that and get real impatient. Pre-production is
>> essential when you know you have limited time to get the job done. In other
>> words don't pull a Toni Dodd in the studio. I can tell you that Toni is
>> notorious for not being prepared, being very indecisive as to what she
>> wants and wasting a lot of time in the studio drinking Jack Daniels, smoking
>> dope and fucking around, which is why her recordings sound like amateur
>> crap.
>> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>> clubmusicians@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *steve cheseborough
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:14 PM
>> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: We Want Your Brain
>> Caruso and Bishop make excellent points about being busy. Those are valid
>> reasons, not "excuses," for not participating in the committee. We all have
>> to seek gigs, perform, practice, rehearse, promote, all the other tasks of
>> being struggling musicians. And some also have other jobs, family
>> responsibilities, social lives. It is unfair for Greg to say "It's your
>> money -- your life" as if being on this committee brings more money and life
>> fulfillment than all those other activities. So far there is no evidence for
>> that.
>> I believe 100 percent in fair pay to play. But I tried working with this
>> committee for several months and its glacial pace just made the investment
>> of time and energy not worth it, to me. After about 10 weeks of meetings the
>> group was still not ready to talk to a reporter who wanted to do a story on
>> the campaign. Since then I have seen a few little articles. But still not
>> one club has signed on. And I think the group has been meeting for more than
>> a year now.
>> Increasing attendance at meetings would only make the proceedings go *
>> slower,* as there would be more viewpoints to consider and longer
>> discussions. I think the small group ought to get some good coverage, get
>> some clubs signed on, show some progress, and maybe us silent sympathizers
>> would then see that the boat is moving, and get onboard. Thank you.
>> Sincerely, SC
>> --
>> Steve Cheseborough
>> www.opb.org/programs/artbeat/videos/view/67-Steve-Cheseborough >> www.stevecheseborough.com >> http://cdbaby.com/all/chezztone >> www.myspace.com/stevecheseborough
>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Ross Lampert <r...@afm99.org> wrote:
>> If you want to be removed from this discussion list, please email me at my
>> regular email address r...@afm99.org. Thanks!
>> Ross
>> PS: I'll take care of you guys Jimmy & Tony, so you don't have to email me
>> again on it.
>> At 05:54 PM 2/11/2009, you wrote:
>> Ross can you remove us from your mailing list, thank you.
>> ------------------------------
>> *From*: "Becky Bishop"
>> *Date*: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:52:47 -0800
>> *To*: <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject*: RE: We Want Your Brain
>> No shit. I lived in LA a very long time (too long), but when I got started
>> there were plenty of places to play and even get paid. All that came to a
>> screeching halt in the early nineties when LA's active music scene suddenly
>> dried up. From what I understand the Bay area dried up a long time before
>> that and hasn't been happening since the early eighties. I'm finding since
>> I arrived in Portland just a short time ago that there are a lot of joints
>> to play up here and a lot them actually pay something. I can understand the
>> importance of keeping it that way and making it better.
>> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com<clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Greg Dawson
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:35 PM
>> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* RE: We Want Your Brain
>> I understand – And it just keeps getting worse the further south you go.
>> I tried LA briefly. That's an express route to insanity for a musician.
>> Greg
>> --
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:clubmusicians@googlegroups.com<clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
>> ]*On Behalf Of *William Caruso
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:14 PM
>> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: We Want Your Brain
>> I live in the Bay Area. I've been working hard on getting all ages shit to
>> start happening. I book at a bar every monday.. much more difficult than
>> portland was in terms of who can play.
>> -William Caruso
>> --- On *Wed, 2/11/09, Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>* wrote:
>> From: Probable Cause <g...@probablecause.com>
>> Subject: We Want Your Brain
>> To: "Club Musicians" <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 2:18 PM
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Ross Lampert <r...@afm99.org> wrote:
> I want to clarify that the idea called Portland Music Alliance is not a
> reality being worked on to the best of my knowledge. Please correct me if
> I'm wrong here. The Musicians Union (AFM) Local 99, however is in fact
> working on the problem of fair pay in the "club" scene.
My mistake, I was not aware there was not an affiliation.
> Paul (Nevyn), if you want to have input into the process, the only way to
> do that is to get involved.
Presenting thoughts via a list is as involved as I care to be(at this
point), since at this point I haven't seen anything I think is viable in
your plan. And I'm not saying I'm the answer man, I'm just analyzing what
is there and saying "I see these problems as making it not something I wish
to get dedicated to; because when I do, I do (this is how I have thrown
dozens to hundreds to near a couple thousand person shows with no press
support, no label support, no one scene I reside in, and so forth, as well
as having quite respectable global and local sales)". If you don't see
those things as problems, then you don't.
> You make a paradoxical point when you say we're not listening to you, but
> you'll only get involved when we listen to you.
No, I'm saying it's not about me. I've watched this from the beginning, and
have seen multiple issues brought up that basically got thrown to the
wayside... via the lines of "well that's not what we're doing now" or
somesuch. I feel, as someone who was watching and occasionally
participating, that the ideas of others were not listened to in a manner
that makes me think the leadership is one I want leading me.
The continual responses of, when problems are pointed out, "you should get
involved" all the while ignoring how I am only dishearten me more.
> How should we listen to you when you have not said anything this whole time
> and are only now saying that you're not being listened to?
Are you serious? Go read what I wrote, I said a lot more than that. Again,
this "defense first, listen later, if at all" stance is what probably irks
me the most about this organization.
> We've invited you (and the community as a whole) to engage multiple times,
And I have engaged you multiple times via this list. And I have brought up
problems and ideas to discuss (certainly not answers, but hey, shouldn't it
be a community answer anyway?) multiple times, yet every time I get this
defense response of "hey now, join up on our team or nothing you say has any
value and we won't listen. we welcome you to be a part of us, but won't
answer/respond to questions/thoughts until you do".
You're a union. You're not guaranteed or deserving of anything simply by
being such. Some unions do good stuff, some don't. Thus far I'm still
waiting to see you guys do anything other than just bulldoze ahead with the
ideas you formed as a part of this union you're forming.
If you want a community, that means discuss ideas people bring up, don't
shoot them down for "not participating" when they're edging their toes in.
When toes are edged, you can engage or attack. Guess which approach retains
kids in the sandbox?
as you're still welcome to do, but we can't read minds,
Nor am I asking you to. In this thread there are multiple specific problems
pointed out. Yet to be addressed.
> so if you choose to stay on the sidelines,
Really? I'm on the sidelines? You mean while I'm sitting here taking the
time and energy to tell you exactly what I'm thinking, where I see problems,
and hope to discuss? This almost feels like a form email... I smell a fat
cat....?
> you can't say you were not invited to give input.
that's good, because I never did. I said I and many others have given input
that we have yet to see you respond to other than with this form email
you're giving me for the umpteenth time.
> Those who have engaged are shaping this campaign,
All 6 of you?
Respond to the people, or the people won't respond.
>> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>> clubmusicians@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Becky Bishop
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:57 PM
>> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* RE: We Want Your Brain
>> I don't know of anyone in LA that is offering up studio time on spec at
>> this time. That hasn't happened in a long time. However there are places
>> that offer really cheap deals. When I recorded my album I paid for studio
>> time, but then I had good production partners that knew exactly where to go,
>> not to mention I had the budget to record at the time, and I was prepared
>> and hired the very best of studio rats that got their stuff down on the
>> first take, myself included. You can always find someone on Craigslist that
>> is offering super low prices on studio time. The deal is you have to get in
>> and out of the studio quickly. That means really being prepared and not
>> fucking around with indecision and insecurities during the recording
>> process. Engineers pick up on that and get real impatient. Pre-production is
>> essential when you know you have limited time to get the job done. In other
>> words don't pull a Toni Dodd in the studio. I can tell you that Toni is
>> notorious for not being prepared, being very indecisive as to what she
>> wants and wasting a lot of time in the studio drinking Jack Daniels, smoking
>> dope and fucking around, which is why her recordings sound like amateur
>> crap.
>> *From:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>> clubmusicians@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *steve cheseborough
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:14 PM
>> *To:* clubmusicians@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: We Want Your Brain
>> Caruso and Bishop make excellent points about being busy. Those are valid
>> reasons, not "excuses," for not participating in the committee. We all have
>> to seek gigs, perform, practice, rehearse, promote, all the other tasks of
>> being struggling musicians. And some also have other jobs, family
>> responsibilities, social lives. It is unfair for Greg to say "It's your
>> money -- your life" as if being on this committee brings more money and life
>> fulfillment than all those other activities. So far there is no evidence for
>> that.
>> I believe 100 percent in fair pay to play. But I tried working with this
>> committee for several months and its glacial pace just made the investment
>> of time and energy not worth it, to me. After about 10 weeks of meetings the
>> group was still not ready to talk to a reporter who wanted to do a story on
>> the campaign. Since then I have seen a few little articles. But still not
>> one club has signed on. And I think the group has been meeting for more than
>> a year now.
>> Increasing attendance at meetings would only make the proceedings go *
>> slower,* as there would be more viewpoints to consider and longer
>> discussions. I think the small group ought to get some good coverage, get
>> some clubs signed on, show some progress, and maybe us silent sympathizers
>> would then see that the boat is moving, and get onboard. Thank you.
>> Sincerely, SC
>> --
>> Steve Cheseborough
>> www.opb.org/programs/artbeat/videos/view/67-Steve-Cheseborough >> www.stevecheseborough.com >> http://cdbaby.com/all/chezztone >> www.myspace.com/stevecheseborough
>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Ross Lampert <r...@afm99.org> wrote:
>> If you want to be removed from this discussion list, please email me at my
>> regular email address r...@afm99.org. Thanks!
>> Ross
>> PS: I'll take care of you guys Jimmy & Tony, so you don't have to email me
>> again on it.
>> At 05:54 PM 2/11/2009, you wrote:
>> Ross can you remove us from your mailing list, thank you.
>> ------------------------------
>> *From*: "Becky Bishop"
>> *Date*: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:52:47 -0800
>> *To*: <clubmusicians@googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject*: RE: We Want Your Brain
>> No shit. I lived in LA a very long time (too long), but when I got started
>> there were plenty of places to play and even get paid. All that came to a
>> screeching halt in the early nineties when LA's active music scene suddenly
>> dried up. From what I understand the Bay area dried up a long time before
>> that and hasn't been happening since the early eighties. I'm finding since
>> I arrived in Portland just a short time ago that there are a lot of joints
>> to play up here and a lot them actually pay something. I can understand the
>> importance of keeping it that way and making it better.
Thing is, you haven't offer up shit. There is nothing you have brought up that can be discussed to any positive end. You are one of those people who can't see the good in anything, likes to say he is fighting for something but really has no interest in doing anything beyond what he is already doing.
> Great, then when people present ideas/problems with existing ideas, > utilize them as discussion points instead of calling them stupid. > Discuss instead of attack from a personal view. Then I'll believe > you're interested in what happens next.
I posted the “We Want Your Brain” comments today because really, two heads are better than one.
The last thing I intended to do was spur a lot of bickering and nit picking. We’re all musicians and generally what benefits one (at least in a situation like this) benefits all.
I am not a member of the Musician’s Union but they invited me and you in to brainstorm this problem. I am involved because the basic premise looks good to me. Do I agree with everything that is said? No, but I want to see if any of my knowledge and experience can help move the process along.
The end result if it works is better pay for working musicians in Portland whether they’re a union member or not. I like that. I think it’s worth putting some effort into even if it fails. If it fails, we learn and take another tact.
Nobody is twisting arms here. If you don’t have the time or inclination to get involved, so be it. If the campaign fails, you can always say, “See there, I told you I wouldn’t work.” And, I’ll be more than happy to take the first bite of crow. If the campaign does work, regardless if you’re involved or not, as a working musician in Portland, you’ll be able to make more money.
This group of people (some union members, some not) are volunteering their time and working together to make something good happen for local musicians. If you have something to add that will help the process we invite your comments. Positive, fact based criticism can be helpful. Negative comments are counterproductive.
I know if we as musicians want a little respect and perhaps a little more money for our incredible efforts, we need to do something different than what we have been doing which is pretty much nothing. “If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.”
We¹re all busy. You don¹t all have to come to every meeting it¹s OK.
However, not knowing what¹s already been discussed makes it pretty tough to make a contribution. The same points come up over and over, and the same discussions happen over and over. This doesn¹t do much to further the cause.
Some of these things are addressed on the FAQ section of our website:
Others are in the meeting notes, which I take pains to make as clear, concise, complete, and accurate as possible for precisely this reason. If you¹re on the committee email list (separate from this one) you¹ve been getting the meeting notes.
Please email me directly not the whole list - if you¹ve read the FAQ and would like to catch up on what the committee has been doing for the last six months or so.
Are you drinking? Be sober before you post. It's called critique, and is a
concept that exists in multiple human languages, including the one you
speak. If you can't handle critique, don't enter the public forum.
-nn
happyhumans.org
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:25 PM, pdxmusicalliance <
pdxmusicallia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thing is, you haven't offer up shit. There is nothing you have brought up
> that can be discussed to any positive end. You are one of those people who
> can't see the good in anything, likes to say he is fighting for something
> but really has no interest in doing anything beyond what he is already
> doing.
> Reread your own posts. Have a good laugh.
> Good luck to you.
> Nevyn Nowhere wrote:
> Great, then when people present ideas/problems with existing ideas, utilize
> them as discussion points instead of calling them stupid. Discuss instead
> of attack from a personal view. Then I'll believe you're interested in what
> happens next.
Join the modern age, and realize not everyone can make your meeting times.
Post transcripts online. Send out "here were the major points discussed" in
emails to this list.
Don't just sit and say "hey, come to the meetings or we don't want you".
Because again, this entire thread started with your people lamenting no one
showing up. If you want people to show up, do something to make that
happen. Arguing when they critique/share opinions, and not addressing such
valid statements, does not do that. For me, at any rate.
On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jake <pedalt...@airpost.net> wrote:
> We're all busy. You don't all have to come to every meeting – it's OK.
> However, not knowing what's already been discussed makes it pretty tough to
> make a contribution. The same points come up over and over, and the same
> discussions happen over and over. This doesn't do much to further the
> cause.
> Some of these things are addressed on the FAQ section of our website:
> Others are in the meeting notes, which I take pains to make as clear,
> concise, complete, and accurate as possible for precisely this reason. If
> you're on the committee email list (separate from this one) you've been
> getting the meeting notes.
> Please email me directly – not the whole list - if you've read the FAQ and
> would like to catch up on what the committee has been doing for the last six
> months or so.
