Cloud computing Can't live only of good news

[Paulo Calcada]

Every day we receive news about companies presenting solutions and products using Cloud Computing paradigm, but we also have to deal with news in the

opposite side - companies closing down: http://www.cloudviews.org/2009/03/coghead-post-mortem/

It's is very important to use these examples in ways that could help improve Cloud Computing solutions and products, this is also why I think that is very important developing things like the UCI interface: (http://www.elasticvapor.com/2009/02/call-to-action-uci-working-group.html)

thanks


Paulo

[Diego Parrilla Santamaría]

Do we create a 'Cloud Deadpool?' ;-)

Just joking. If you don't have cases of failure, that means that your business is non-existant. But obviously you don't have to publish them in our homepage.

I don't think Cloud Computing solutions fails because of technical issues, but for too high expectations from the customer perspective.

My two cents

Diego Parrilla Santamaría
Business Development Manager & Product Technology Strategist at Abiquo, Corp.
+34 649 94 43 29
skype:diegoparrilla
www.abiquo.com

530 University Ave, Palo Alto, CA, USA
Consell de Cent 296, Barcelona, ES

[Jason N. Meiers]

Agree, the incidents in the cloud computing space such as Coghead need to be looked at and to determine how it won't happen to your company. I think this needs to be taken with a grain of salt since as the chairmen stated it was the best option considering funding has been hard for them to come by in this financial environment. http://www.coghead.com/letter-from-chairman 

 

In addtion, this is a different environment than 5-10 years ago. This is cloud computing ( Infrastructure-as-a-Service ), the ultimate goals to improve availability and cost. If your company cannot produce a return on investment for your operating expense within a month then cloud computing will not pay off for you and your product. In example, only fireup instances for customers when they actually pay and hire when you have enough instances to add addtional staff. How can we expect to change the process how software is delivered if we are still growing start-ups like in the '90s?

 

Just my 2 cents.

JM

On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Paulo Calcada <pcal...@gmail.com> wrote:

[tluk...@exnihilum.com]

@diego, jason:

Did either of you see, read or consider joining the discussion that I started recently regarding the Coghead situation and how it might have been mitigated or avoided by standards? All that ever seems to come out of this forum are pontifications and vague comments.

Talk, talk talking isn't going to solve anything. I was looking for a few people interested in facing the problem, and doing something real to try and reduce or minimize it - but all I've found so far is a clubby bunch of celebrities who like to hear themselves and each other (but mostly themselves) talk.

Just my 2 cents,
TL


-----Original Message-----
From: "Jason N. Meiers" [jason....@gmail.com]
Date: 03/05/2009 06:00 AM
To: cloud...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Cloud computing Can't live only of good news

Agree, the incidents in the cloud computing space such as Coghead need to be looked at and to determine how it wont happen to your company. I think this needs to be taken with a grain of salt since as the chairmen stated it was the best option considering funding has been hard for them to come by in this financial environment. http://www.coghead.com/letter-from-chairman

In addtion, this is a different environment than 5-10 years ago. This is cloud computing ( Infrastructure-as-a-Service ), the ultimate goals to improve availability and cost. If your company cannot produce a return on investment for your operating expense within a month then cloud computing will not pay off for you and your product. In example, only fireup instances for customers when they actually pay and hire when you have enough instances to add addtional staff. How can we expect to change the process how software is delivered if we are still growing start-ups like in the 90s?

Just my 2 cents.
JM



On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Paulo Calcada <pcal...@gmail.com> wrote:
Every day we receive news about companies presenting solutions and products using Cloud Computing paradigm, but we also have to deal with news in the opposite side - companies closing down: http://www.cloudviews.org/2009/03/coghead-post-mortem/

Its is very important to use these examples in ways that could help improve Cloud Computing solutions and products, this is also why I think that is very important developing things like the UCI interface: (http://www.elasticvapor.com/2009/02/call-to-action-uci-working-group.html)

thanks


Paulo
<br

[Diego Parrilla Santamaría]

@TL,

I joined that thread inmediattely after its creation, and I pointed realistic solutions to the problem. Solutions that the IT industry embraced long time ago for simlilar issues.

Regards

Diego Parrilla Santamaría
Business Development Manager & Product Technology Strategist at Abiquo, Corp.
+34 649 94 43 29
skype:diegoparrilla
www.abiquo.com

530 University Ave, Palo Alto, CA, USA
Consell de Cent 296, Barcelona, ES

[Jason N. Meiers]

Couldn't agree more. Welcome TL.

 

Your really want an example do you? for example SEMP (Simple Event Management Protocol) I built a server and incrementaly add instances depending on the amount of cpu consumed buy the end customer. This way my return on investment is immediate. Running Apache, Tomcat, DB2 Express-C

http://service.utilitystatus.com/semp/services

 

Eclipse based GUI

http://www.cloudautonomics.com/

 

More information on SEMP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEMP

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best Regards,

JM

Monitoring-as-a-Service(TM)

 

 

On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 1:10 PM, tluk...@exnihilum.com <tluk...@exnihilum.com> wrote:

[Jason Reed]

We can add entellium and thelinkup/media max to the list as well.  Good examples of technology lock in and traditional business issues (e.g. falsifying financials) live in the cloud too.

Reed

[Jason N. Meiers]

Falsifying Financials.... AIG, Mogan Stanley, Hypo Real Estate, Country Wide,...  Joe the Plumber.

 

We could go on all day.

[Jesse L Silver]

Hey TL (et al)-

Though it's easy to criticize, this list is plugging like-minded people into productive working groups and events appropriate to their respective levels. We are also forming a wider community through regional, topical meetings, such as the CloudCamp NYC and CCIF Wall Street events taking place the first week of April. If you are truly serious about Cloud standards, make sure to join us in New York City. There is no substitute for direct participation...

Hope to see you then,
Jesse

PS> I'd love to help you find the best way for you to "face the problem", as you say... email me directly @ silve...@gmail.com



Please email me directly @ silve...@gmail.com

[tluk...@exnihilum.com]

>> "..this list is plugging like-minded people into productive working "

>> "groups and events appropriate to their respective levels."

Ohh.. now I understand! Some of us need to move to the back of the bus.

TL

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jesse L Silver" [silve...@gmail.com]
Date: 03/05/2009 08:31 AM
To: cloud...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Cloud computing Can't live only of good news

Hey TL (et al)-

Though its easy to criticize, this list is plugging like-minded people into productive working groups and events appropriate to their respective levels. We are also forming a wider community through regional, topical meetings, such as the CloudCamp NYC and CCIF Wall Street events taking place the first week of April. If you are truly serious about Cloud standards, make sure to join us in New York City. There is no substitute for direct participation...

Hope to see you then,
Jesse

PS> Id love to help you find the best way for you to "face the problem", as you say... email me directly @ silve...@gmail.com

Please email me directly @ silve...@gmail.com

On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 4:10 AM, tluk...@exnihilum.com <tluk...@exnihilum.com> wrote:
@diego, jason:

Did either of you see, read or consider joining the discussion that I started recently regarding the Coghead situation and how it might have been mitigated or avoided by standards? All that ever seems to come out of this forum are pontifications and vague comments.

Talk, talk talking isnt going to solve anything. I was looking for a few people interested in facing the problem, and doing something real to try and reduce or minimize it - but all Ive found so far is a clubby bunch of celebrities who like to hear themselves and each other (but mostly themselves) talk.

[Geva Perry]

TL - Can you link to the discussion thread you created that you are
referring to above?

On Mar 5, 11:55 am, "tluka...@exnihilum.com" <tluka...@exnihilum.com>
wrote:

> >> "..this list is plugging like-minded people into productive working "
> >> "groups and events appropriate to their respective levels."
>
> Ohh.. now I understand! Some of us need to move to the back of the bus.
>
> TL
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Jesse L Silver" [silverg...@gmail.com]
> Date: 03/05/2009 08:31 AM
> To: cloud...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Cloud computing Can't live only of good news
>
> Hey TL (et al)-
>
> Though its easy to criticize, this list is plugging like-minded people into productive working groups and events appropriate to their respective levels. We are also forming a wider community through regional, topical meetings, such as the CloudCamp NYC and CCIF Wall Street events taking place the first week of April. If you are truly serious about Cloud standards, make sure to join us in New York City. There is no substitute for direct participation...
>
> Hope to see you then,
> Jesse
>

> PS> Id love to help you find the best way for you to "face the problem", as you say... email me directly @ silverg...@gmail.com
>
> Please email me directly @ silverg...@gmail.com

>
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 4:10 AM, tluka...@exnihilum.com <tluka...@exnihilum.com> wrote:
> @diego, jason:
>
> Did either of you see, read or consider joining the discussion that I started recently regarding the Coghead situation and how it might have been mitigated or avoided by standards? All that ever seems to come out of this forum are pontifications and vague comments.
>
> Talk, talk talking isnt going to solve anything. I was looking for a few people interested in facing the problem, and doing something real to try and reduce or minimize it - but all Ive found so far is a clubby bunch of celebrities who like to hear themselves and each other (but mostly themselves) talk.
>
> Just my 2 cents,
> TL
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Jason N. Meiers" [jason.mei...@gmail.com]
> Date: 03/05/2009 06:00 AM
> To: cloud...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Cloud computing Cant live only of good news
>

> Agree, the incidents in the cloud computing space such as Coghead need to be looked at and to determine how it wont happen to your company. I think this needs to be taken with a grain of salt since as the chairmen stated it was the best option considering funding has been hard for them to come by in this financial environment.http://www.coghead.com/letter-from-chairman 

>
> In addtion, this is a different environment than 5-10 years ago. This is cloud computing ( Infrastructure-as-a-Service ), the ultimate goals to improve availability and cost. If your company cannot produce a return on investment for your operating expense within a month then cloud computing will not pay off for you and your product. In example, only fireup instances for customers when they actually pay and hire when you have enough instances to add addtional staff. How can we expect to change the process how software is delivered if we are still growing start-ups like in the 90s?
>
> Just my 2 cents.
> JM
>

> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Paulo Calcada <pcalc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Every day we receive news about companies presenting solutions and products using Cloud Computing paradigm, but we also have to deal with news in the  opposite side - companies closing down:http://www.cloudviews.org/2009/03/coghead-post-mortem/
>

> Its is very important to use these examples in ways that could help improve Cloud Computing solutions and products, this is also why I think that is very important developing things like the UCI interface: (http://www.elasticvapor.com/2009/02/call-to-action-uci-working-group....)
>
> thanks
>
> Paulo
> <br

[Jesse L Silver]

Sorry to hear you interpreted my comment that way.

[tluk...@exnihilum.com]

>> "Sorry to hear you interpreted my comment that way."

Well, Jesse.. I don't see you offering me an alternative interpretation.

This forum does not entertain and evaluate ideas on their merit but on who they're coming from. I've witnessed utter nonsense and trivia posted by the "luminaries" (as Krishna refers to them) get received with pats on the back and multiple responses. Then I'll take a great deal of time to make a carefully crafted post that as lean and to-the-point as possible, containing one simple but important question that requires only a simple "Yes" or "No" answer -- and it gets **completely ignored**.

Why do you suppose that is?

[Alexis Richardson]

TL,

Can I make a suggestion? Perhaps people are not understanding the
question you are asking. I too feel that from time to time this group
goes off on a tangent, though I think it is premature to accuse it of
being "just talk" since it was only formed very recently.

If you have some ideas for cloud interop, in the form of actionable
measurable work, that would definitely put some flesh on the bones
people have been throwing around.

alexis

[Jason N. Meiers]

Can you take this discussion offline, it's getting uninteresting. There are larger challenges than the format of past discussions.

 

JM

[Jeremy Day]

All,

I'm a lurker and this is one of my first posts.  Some of the discussion that I've heard is, like Mr. Meiers says, uninteresting.  What I do find interesting, and this is me paraphrasing (meaning feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken or if I have misinterpreted what has been said in this thread and elsewhere on the mailing list), is that some people are sick and tired of the talk here.  They want action.  My response to this is that if you want action then you should create a repository somewhere, put some code in there, and then let us know what you have so that we can look at it and then contribute or not contribute at our leisure.  Talking about action is just more talk.

Jeremy

[Paulo Calcada]

TL, can you please send me a references to your previous posts? I've tried to find it but without success.

Regarding my post, and also others that I've also posted, my objective, when I share this kind of "simple" thoughts, is to start discussions. Most of the times the subjects of the messages contains, itself, the basic idea. Because we all are very busy people, I think that with this method we could have more success when try to spread ideas and initiating discussions.

Thanks

2009/3/6 Jeremy Day <jerem...@gmail.com>

[Paulo Calcada]

by the way, just another simple thought: ;)

http://www.cloudviews.org/2009/03/moving-forward-in-the-pc-webization-process/

2009/3/6 Paulo Calcada <pcal...@gmail.com>

[Reuven Cohen]

Paulo, I for one appreciate you engaging in a dialog and encourage
others to do the same. For those of you who would like to do something
more then "talk", then I would like to invite you to join the UCI
project or even create your own interoperability initiatives.

For example Mohamed El-Refaey has created a UCI architecture diagram
http://code.google.com/p/unifiedcloud/wiki/UCI_Architecture

Pat Wendorf, Sergey Kirillov and others have contributed initial draft
OWL ontologies.
http://code.google.com/p/unifiedcloud/source/browse/trunk/ontologies/

And, although very preliminarily, we even have some functional UCI
agent code developed.
http://code.google.com/p/unifiedcloud/source/browse/trunk/#trunk/prototypes/agent

UCI Group
http://groups.google.com/group/unifiedcloud

r/c

[tluk...@exnihilum.com]

>> "its getting uninteresting."

This "uninteresting" thread was provoked as a sincere and honest effort to help this forum to be more effective in order to have any hope of getting results. There are 500+ members of this forum representing a vast diversity of experience, knowledge and understanding that never get heard from. I'd like that to change.

My simple suggestion to you is that when you find that a thread has become "uninteresting" that you just stop clicking on that subject line and stop reading those posts.

Works form me.

TL






-----Original Message-----
From: "Jason N. Meiers" [jason....@gmail.com]
Date: 03/06/2009 11:54 AM
To: cloud...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Cloud computing Can't live only of good news

Can you take this discussion offline, its getting uninteresting. There are larger challenges than the format of past discussions.

JM


On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Alexis Richardson <alexis.r...@gmail.com> wrote:

TL,

Can I make a suggestion? Perhaps people are not understanding the
question you are asking. I too feel that from time to time this group
goes off on a tangent, though I think it is premature to accuse it of
being "just talk" since it was only formed very recently.

If you have some ideas for cloud interop, in the form of actionable
measurable work, that would definitely put some flesh on the bones
people have been throwing around.

alexis


On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:58 AM, tluk...@exnihilum.com

<tluk...@exnihilum.com> wrote:
>>> "Sorry to hear you interpreted my comment that way."
>

> Well, Jesse.. I dont see you offering me an alternative interpretation.

>
> This forum does not entertain and evaluate ideas on their merit but on who

> theyre coming from. Ive witnessed utter nonsense and trivia posted by the

> "luminaries" (as Krishna refers to them) get received with pats on the back

> and multiple responses. Then Ill take a great deal of time to make a

[tluk...@exnihilum.com]

>> "Talking about action is just more talk."

While that is true, *effective* action is impossible without a shared understanding of what we're talking about (where are our *working definitions* of Portability, Interoperability, and Compatibility?) and some idea of the result that we're expecting: Is it Specifications? Is it Architectures? Is it a Reference Implementation? Is it all of the above?

Without this foundation we'll be just like a bunch of rocking horses, or rowboats bobbing up and down at the pier: continuous action but no progress. So please don't encourage or expect everyone to go off in any direction and "just do it" without the support of knowing more clearly what we're doing, where we're trying to go, or at least what we're all talking about.

TL

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jeremy Day" [jerem...@gmail.com]
Date: 03/06/2009 12:01 PM
To: cloud...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Cloud computing Can't live only of good news

All,

Im a lurker and this is one of my first posts. Some of the discussion that Ive heard is, like Mr. Meiers says, uninteresting. What I do find interesting, and this is me paraphrasing (meaning feel free to correct me if Im mistaken or if I have misinterpreted what has been said in this thread and elsewhere on the mailing list), is that some people are sick and tired of the talk here. They want action. My response to this is that if you want action then you should create a repository somewhere, put some code in there, and then let us know what you have so that we can look at it and then contribute or not contribute at our leisure. Talking about action is just more talk.

Jeremy

[Jason N. Meiers]

TL, as said you are making this uninteresting. How can you evaluate someone or a groups potential if your service doesn't exist? exnihilum.com

A suggestion for you TL to improve this group, we add a democratic process to kick email handles.

[tluk...@exnihilum.com]

>> "How can you evaluate someone or a groups potential if your service doesn't exist?"

Are you even suggesting that you have no way of dealing with a member who has no identifiable product or service to "push"?

I've been a software architect and developer for 25 years, building distributed systems since BEFORE Netware made networking a given. I'm currently acting as Chief Architect or CTO for several organizations - none of which I intended to represent here. I'm here @ CCIF to help cruft a standard that will enable the Cloud industry to stabilize and grow. I simply created a domain name (in Latin, 'Exnihilum' == "out of nothing", a name appropriate to the task) and mailbox to use for this initiative. I'm sorry if that really disables your ability to understand me - but it is further evidence that as a group we need to have some way to do that. Reuven's idea that we should all openly disclose (or at least not hide) our biases is one way. If we all do that you'll get the information you need directly, and won't have to spend time investigating and profiling people via their affiliations.

?? "if you want action then you should create a repository somewhere, put some code in there.."

With all due respect Jason, that is a very unenlightened suggestion - that we can each of us go off into a corner, hack some code, and drop it on the CCIF's doorstep for approval like a cat does with mice. Are you over 18?

TL


-----Original Message-----
From: "Jason N. Meiers" [jason....@gmail.com]

Date: 03/07/2009 04:34 AM
To: cloud...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Cloud computing Can't live only of good news

TL, as said you are making this uninteresting. How can you evaluate someone or a groups potential if your service doesnt exist? exnihilum.com

A suggestion for you TL to improve this group, we add a democratic process to kick email handles.


On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 9:15 PM, tluk...@exnihilum.com <tluk...@exnihilum.com> wrote:
>> "Talking about action is just more talk."

While that is true, *effective* action is impossible without a shared understanding of what were talking about (where are our *working definitions* of Portability, Interoperability, and Compatibility?) and some idea of the result that were expecting: Is it Specifications? Is it Architectures? Is it a Reference Implementation? Is it all of the above?

Without this foundation well be just like a bunch of rocking horses, or rowboats bobbing up and down at the pier: continuous action but no progress. So please dont encourage or expect everyone to go off in any direction and "just do it" without the support of knowing more clearly what were doing, where were trying to go, or at least what were all talking about.

TL


-----Original Message-----
From: "Jeremy Day" [jerem...@gmail.com]
Date: 03/06/2009 12:01 PM
To: cloud...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Cloud computing Cant live only of good news

[Jason N. Meiers]

This is getting old TL. ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz.