HP Revs Data Center Strategy, Stabbing At Cisco

[Rao Dronamraju]

http://tinyurl.com/ycm8nxz

 

The author of the article says

“Yet one wonders if perhaps the biggest problem is that the whole concept of data-center sprawl, and the management thereof, remains obtuse to the initiated. As in, how the heck do CIOs explain this stuff to their CEO?”

 

Considering that the IT spend by a company is 3% to 7% on an average, isn’t CEO’s time mostly spent on the other 93% to 97% spend?..

In the over all realm/context of a business how important is IT?...

 

 

 

 

[Gilad Parann-Nissany]

Rao, its claimed that much of the productivity improvement in 1990s and 2001-2007 was IT driven. Smart companies were using IT to differentiate their processes.

Of course depends on how you define IT. In the broadest sense include Global-2000 Data Centers as well as Google. Large Enterprise IT as well as SME projects. You get my drift.

It may be that ~5%-10% of the spend is driving change across the economy, and then IT can be a fair chunk of that.

Regards
Gilad
__________________
Gilad Parann-Nissany
CEO, Founder
http://www.porticor.com/

[Hilly Biker]

Agreed ... it really comes down to whether or not the company has
architected some aspect of their business to help drive their business
and create differentiation.

For some, that is accomplished via IT (the obvious big examples of
Google and Amazon, but also EDA type companies such as Intel or Nvidia
use IT as a key weapon in their portfolio for developing their chips,
Honda and Toyota using automation and robotics for consistent quality
of product, etc).

For others, they may differentiate based upon supply chain
efficiencies (ie. Dell or Wal Mart).

Where it is not a total core value to your company, it often makes
much more sense to take that problem off of your own books and allow
others who specialize in it do it as a proxy for you ... thus the big
thing with outsourcing in the 90s, in-sourced consolidation and
virtualization in the 2000s, etc). Similarly, many companies can't
compete with Wal Mart for their supply chain logistics, so they push
it out to FedEx or UPS, or even to Amazon in some cases.

Now, various aspects of cloud computing is allowing yet another
mechanism for those who don't have IT as a core fundamental business
value, with constant awareness throughout the company, including a
good chunk of the CEO's time, now is a great time to look at the
possibilities of leveling the playing field a bit.

However, there are still a number of (often discussed) boundaries to
adoption of public cloud computing, so initial phases and projects for
most existing firms is a combination of private cloud implementations
for a large portion of their landscape as well as targeted use of
public cloud for non-proprietary work.

-Phil

[Rao Dronamraju]

Gilad,

 

I agree and I think you have an excellent point.

 

That is why I always told folks like Nicholas Carr, when he says IT doesn’t matter….why not shut down your data center for a week or a month see how much IT matters!.

 

Although IT spend may be 5% to 10%, its contribution to a company’s bottom line/revenues/profits is generally much more.

 

The question is how many CEO’s realize this?....

 

Interestingly if they realize this (the fact that IT data center contributes lot more to their bottom line than their spend), they might be LOT more careful/reluctant to move to public clouds.

They might prefer private clouds because what they loose (revenues) if something goes wrong (in the public clouds and out of their control) is much more than what they gain (cost savings)

 

Regards,

Rao

 

---

[Miha Ahronovitz]

so initial phases and projects for
most existing firms is a combination of private cloud implementations
for a large portion of their landscape as well as targeted use of
public cloud for non-proprietary work.

It is not initial.This is the model to be adopted.
For management , the clarity of the reporting (usage
revenues and expenses) that a cloud makes possible,
has no precedent and will transform the IT

Miha

---

From: Hilly Biker <morri...@gmail.com>
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 4:56:34 PM

Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: HP Revs Data Center Strategy, Stabbing At Cisco

[Peglar, Robert]

In my experience, many CEOs do not want explanations from CIOs.  In fact, they rarely want to hear from their CIO, because it usually means bad things are happening J

 

As for spend, CEOs do indeed look at that, especially on public companies.  A difference of 1% can make or break a quarter, which in turn can make or break the market cap for your company and the CEO’s compensation.  So, while 3-7% doesn’t sound like a lot, it absolutely is.  1% of a billion-dollar revenue quarter means 10 million on the bottom line, and that 10 million can make or break a quarter, easily.  Quite often, if you’re a public company and you miss by $.01/share, you get hammered by the Street.

 

Rob

 

From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rao Dronamraju
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 11:53 AM
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.52/2483 - Release Date: 11/05/09 13:52:00

[Jan Klincewicz]

The more these conversations go on, the more it seems that CC may just not be that great an idea...  Hmm.. let's see.  You don't pay for hardware, maintenance, data centers or employees .. so far so good.  BUT ... You have no guarantee your data is secure, and your provider could go down for days leaving you stranded with no recourse ...

If IT spend is only 5-10% it is starting to look like a good deal.  Maybe we are all wasting our time here ?

--
Cheers,
Jan

[Ray DePena]

@Jan,

Sometimes I wonder the same thing.  CC could be a massive black hole or lead to growth of numerous new areas - only time will tell I suppose.  At least with the advent of the PC and Bill's pronouncement of a PC in every home you could see a path to growth.  With CC it's a mixed bag.  I'm certainly not seeing a cloud in every home....

@Rao, re: your comment -

"That is why I always told folks like Nicholas Carr, when he says IT doesn’t matter….why not shut down your data center for a week or a month see how much IT matters!."

Carr is referring to relative value not absolute.  If you bring a gun (new technology) to a knife fight you have a technologically driven strategic advantage, and as technology shifts to rifles, machine guns, and other new (technology) weaponry one can maintain that advantage, but what happens when those advantages come to an end and everyone has the same armament (technology)?  At that point, technology no longer offers an advantage over the competition and as Carr pronounced, IT doesn't matter any longer (not in an absolute sense, but relative).

--
Ray DePeña
Director, Stealth Startups
Strategic Business Advisor

http://www.linkedin.com/in/raydepena
Sacramento, CA 95630
(916) 941-5558

[Rao Dronamraju]

“Carr is referring to relative value not absolute.  If you bring a gun (new technology) to a knife fight you have a technologically driven strategic advantage, and as technology shifts to rifles, machine guns, and other new (technology) weaponry one can maintain that advantage, but what happens when those advantages come to an end and everyone has the same armament (technology)?  At that point, technology no longer offers an advantage over the competition and as Carr pronounced, IT doesn't matter any longer (not in an absolute sense, but relative).”

 

We live in a society/world that is driven by mass production and standardization which is necessary for economies of scale. So everyone having the same gun is inevitable. This happens with all industries. For instance, auto manufacturers all of them have the same or similar IC engines, tranmissions, chasis etc etc. So does auto manufacturing matter?...They diffentiate themselves in many other ways. The only way you maintain a competitive advanatage is continuous innovation and differentiation. IT is no exception. If IT is a major contributor to the bottom line of a companies revenues, IT matters! through non-stop innovation and differentiation. For IT companies to survive and thrive, they have to continuously innovate new products and services which will continuously be used by other industries. So Nicholas Carr’s basic assumption is that innovation at some point comes to an end and value it provides will be stagnant. I think IT industry hasn’t come to that stage yet and it is probably 50 years away from it. So Nicholas Carr is too premature in his assessment of IT (doesn’t matter).

 

 

---

[Rao Dronamraju]

No, CC is will happen it is just a matter of time. It might take a while but the business and economics behind it is undenaibly good.

 

It is good to look at all different perspectives, dimesions and angles of CC to understand it in the best possible way.

 

---

[Jim Peters]

I think you guys are missing the point. The issue is how well IT is applied. A company could buy tons of fancy hardware and software and not be able to use it to achieve competitive advantage. Another company could buy cheap hardware and build their own software and gain substantial advantage. Clearly in this sense IT is most relevant.

Similarly, the use of CC may or may not lead to competitive advantage.

+J

--
Jim Peters
+1-415-608-0851

[Tarry Singh]

Need for IT to be broken up and spread across layers in the clouds is as much there as the electrical revolution. We worry about clouds not being up or secure but we don't worry about that with electricity. Neither do we worry about exhorbitant costs where I pay barely 0.3% of my electricity bills.

So IT is way too expensive and software/hardware companies want to control it as teh faster it happens the cheaper it would be for those large accounts. Funny thing is large accounts (retail banking, manufacturing etc) are all splitting into little enterprises and they'll kick everyone's asses.

Coming down from 7% to 0.1% should be the target for every billion-dollar company. Those are savings which firms can not only compensate all bonuses and perks but also other costs, so I see it as a lucrative deal for businesses where IT folks are spending loads of money on vendors. Can you imagine that! I am yet to hear anyone of you here who is spending so much on IT at your own homes. At home we guard our finances fiercely but at work we have remained so passive on those ridiculous spendings. Darn it, its your freaking money and you should spend it on yourself!

Kind Regards,

Tarry Singh
CEO/Founder, Avastu
Research-Analysis-Ideation
"Start your company with your ideas. Today!"
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Business Cell: +31630617633
Private Cell: +31629159400
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tarrysingh
Blogs: http://www.ideationcloud.com
Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/tarrysingh

[Peglar, Robert]

Good points, @Rao.

So, which force wins in the long run?

Innovation/differentiation, or mass-scale/standardization/commoditization?

Rob

From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray DePena
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:02 PM
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: HP Revs Data Center Strategy, Stabbing At
Cisco



@Jan,

Sometimes I wonder the same thing. CC could be a massive black hole or lead
to growth of numerous new areas - only time will tell I suppose. At least
with the advent of the PC and Bill's pronouncement of a PC in every home you
could see a path to growth. With CC it's a mixed bag. I'm certainly not
seeing a cloud in every home....

@Rao, re: your comment -

"That is why I always told folks like Nicholas Carr, when he says IT doesn't

matter....why not shut down your data center for a week or a month see how

much IT matters!."

Carr is referring to relative value not absolute. If you bring a gun (new
technology) to a knife fight you have a technologically driven strategic
advantage, and as technology shifts to rifles, machine guns, and other new
(technology) weaponry one can maintain that advantage, but what happens when
those advantages come to an end and everyone has the same armament
(technology)? At that point, technology no longer offers an advantage over
the competition and as Carr pronounced, IT doesn't matter any longer (not in
an absolute sense, but relative).

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Jan Klincewicz <jan.kli...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The more these conversations go on, the more it seems that CC may just not
be that great an idea... Hmm.. let's see. You don't pay for hardware,
maintenance, data centers or employees .. so far so good. BUT ... You have
no guarantee your data is secure, and your provider could go down for days
leaving you stranded with no recourse ...

If IT spend is only 5-10% it is starting to look like a good deal. Maybe we
are all wasting our time here ?

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Rao Dronamraju
<rao.dro...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Gilad,



I agree and I think you have an excellent point.



That is why I always told folks like Nicholas Carr, when he says IT doesn't

matter....why not shut down your data center for a week or a month see how

much IT matters!.



Although IT spend may be 5% to 10%, its contribution to a company's bottom
line/revenues/profits is generally much more.



The question is how many CEO's realize this?....



Interestingly if they realize this (the fact that IT data center contributes
lot more to their bottom line than their spend), they might be LOT more
careful/reluctant to move to public clouds.

They might prefer private clouds because what they loose (revenues) if
something goes wrong (in the public clouds and out of their control) is much
more than what they gain (cost savings)



Regards,

Rao



_____

[Jan Klincewicz]

@Tarry :

How does that explain those enormous-ass diesel generators I see outside so many data centers ?

"We worry about clouds not being up or secure but we don't worry about that with electricity. Neither do we worry about exhorbitant costs where I pay barely 0.3% of my electricity bills."

--
Cheers,
Jan

[Jan Klincewicz]

@Rob

I'm not sure it has to be a zero sum game.  There is Rolex / Timex, Rolls Royce / Kia, $2,000 per night Dominatrix / Streetwalkers .. you get the drift ...

<So, which force wins in the long run?

Innovation/differentiation, or mass-scale/standardization/

commoditization? >>

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Peglar, Robert <Robert...@xiotech.com> wrote:

--
Cheers,
Jan

[Bernard Golden]

Rob, right on.

If one looks at the relentless cost-cutting that has gone on (in US
companies, at least), 3% - 7% of revenues looks like a pretty rich
target. Especially if you're a CEO, getting rid of a cost associated
with one of your subordinates walking you through a lengthy financial
analysis of upgrading to a 10G vs 1G network. Particularly if the
remaining conversation with the CIO then focuses on apps to help the
lines of business you're really concerned with, like sales, etc.

[Jan Klincewicz]

@Tarry:

<Neither do we worry about exhorbitant costs where I pay barely 0.3% of my electricity bills.>

I don't know how long you've been getting away with that. but I'll bet eventually they will start dunning you for the balance <g>.

More power to ya !

--
Cheers,
Jan

[Miha Ahronovitz]

"Innovation/differentiation, or mass-scale/standardization/commoditization?"

It is like saying who will win long run, my hands or my legs?
A very successful innovation may lead to ' mass-scale/standardization/commoditization "

M

---

From: "Peglar, Robert" <Robert...@xiotech.com>
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 4:09:37 AM

[Rao Dronamraju]

It is a good question. If we look back in human history, how long innovation
has been aorund and how long mass-scale/standardization has been around,
innovation has been there atleast since wheel was invented. Infact pre-wheel
societies were also considered highly intelligent in many other ways
(socially, phyillosophically etc)....

But mass-scale/standardization has come into societies lately. Henry Ford is
given the credit for mass-scale production. I am sure other 18th century
industrial revolution also had some inklings of mass-scale production.

I think both will win. Infact I will not be surprised to see a world (may be
in 100+ years), where all the mass-production/standardization is done by
machines (i.e 100% of your life is run by machines) and human beings will
have all the time in the world to innovate. So bascially mass production
will make standard of living better and better, free up all your time from
any non-innovative work and this will give rise to productivity in
innovation and hence more quantitative and qualitative innovation, which
in-turn will make mass-production/standardization more efficient both
quantitativey and qualitatively. So you see both will feed each other and
thrive.

One interesting thing is, what if human brain/thinking is commoditized and
standardized in mass-scale?...Can innovation be commoditized and
standardized in mass-scale?...One way to do this is, produce THINKING
MACHINES (no, I am not talking about the company that existed 20 years
back). This is where clouds and beyond come into play. I think with massive
intelligence in the clouds and with all the advances in ML, AI that I
foresee coming in the next 20+ years, REAL THINKING MACHINES that think like
and may be even better than human beings are possible.

[Ray DePena]

That's Carr's point.  Once upon a time, the telephone, trains, cars/trucks were all competitive differentiators for business.  I doubt anyone still thinks so today.

Incremental, marginal innovation may keep one in the heap, though it may take radical, revolutionary innovation/differentiation to get to the top of the competitive mountain.

When mass standardization (cloud) comes along, by definition, it's no longer a competitive differentiators.

Noone gets to the destination faster (or has an advantage) if they're all riding on the same bus / cloud.

-RD

[Digvijay Singh Rathore]

Hey, Aren't both a way to winning in the long run which reminds me of the innovation lifecycle from Clayton M. Christensen's book The innovators dilemma. When the present solution starts overacheiving new disruptive things come into the market, look at the diagrams below. http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/christensen.htm   http://digvijaysinghrathore.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!AF10AFF9F709C2EC!196.entry The curve shown in the book moves to be a new cycle on another plan as things become commodity.   Digvijay "VJ" Singh http://www.linkedin.com/in/digvijaysinghrathore --- On Fri, 6/11/09, Peglar, Robert <Robert...@xiotech.com> wrote:

> From: Peglar, Robert <Robert...@xiotech.com> > Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: HP Revs Data Center Strategy, Stabbing At Cisco

> To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com > Date: Friday, 6 November, 2009, 5:39 PM > > Good points, @Rao. > > So, which force wins in the long run?  > > Innovation/differentiation, or > mass-scale/standardization/commoditization? > > Rob > > -----Original Message-----

> From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com > [mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com] > On Behalf Of Rao Dronamraju > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:58 PM > To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com > Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: HP Revs Data Center > Strategy, Stabbing At Cisco >

> From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com > [mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com] > On Behalf Of Ray DePena > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:02 PM > To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com > Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: HP Revs Data Center > Strategy, Stabbing At > Cisco > > > > @Jan, > > Sometimes I wonder the same thing.  CC could be a > massive black hole or lead > to growth of numerous new areas - only time will tell I > suppose.  At least > with the advent of the PC and Bill's pronouncement of a PC > in every home you > could see a path to growth.  With CC it's a mixed > bag.  I'm certainly not > seeing a cloud in every home.... > > @Rao, re: your comment - > > "That is why I always told folks like Nicholas Carr, when > he says IT doesn't

> matter....why not shut down your data center for a week or

> matter....why not shut down your data center for a week or

> a month see how > much IT matters!. > > > > Although IT spend may be 5% to 10%, its contribution to a > company's bottom > line/revenues/profits is generally much more. > > > > The question is how many CEO's realize this?.... > > > > Interestingly if they realize this (the fact that IT data > center contributes > lot more to their bottom line than their spend), they might > be LOT more > careful/reluctant to move to public clouds. > > They might prefer private clouds because what they loose > (revenues) if > something goes wrong (in the public clouds and out of their > control) is much > more than what they gain (cost savings) > > > > Regards, > > Rao > > > >   _____  >

> No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.52/2483 - Release > Date: 11/05/09 13:52:00 > >

The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.

[Ray DePena]

VJ,

Throughout my career it was relatively easy for me to see "what's coming up next". 
Seeing the advent of the PC and the proliferation as a next step, then networking, office productivity, client server, etc.

This time, I'm having quite a bit of difficulty "seeing" IT beyond the cloud.  I can see big clouds (mega centers), small clouds, public, private, hybrid, industry aligned clouds, specialized clouds, etc.  but for the first time, I'm at a complete loss of what is beyond the cloud, and I'm not one that relies on faith so it's a bit disconcerting for me.

-RD

[Jan Klincewicz]

Gutenberg always gets screwed on this one ... He predated Henry Ford by some years ....

<<Henry Ford is given the credit for mass-scale production.>>

--
Cheers,
Jan

[Peglar, Robert]

@Jan

I agree - it doesn't have to be. Yet, out there in cloud-buying land, everyone is saying the same thing - "we are Rolex" - but not revealing to the consumer that they really have a Timex inside the case.

It may take some more big-news outages to get consumers to realize there are indeed choices to be made. Let's hope we can get to that point and consumers don't continue to believe "hey, it's a cloud, all clouds are the same because it's no longer my problem."

(The phrase above was uttered by a recent CIO I was speaking to about cloud storage, I kid you not!)

Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.52/2485 - Release Date: 11/06/09 13:39:00

[Peglar, Robert]

@VJ,

I hope you are right. Today, I see no signs that Christensen's chart holds true for cloud. There are too many innovations going on now that many (not all, to be fair) cloud providers are ignoring, either through lethargy or on purpose. Again, it boils down to there is no pressure from consumers to make the chart a real thing - yet - so the providers can just fall down the commodity slope forever. There are already studies that implicitly revoke the Christensen thesis - e.g. those studies which attempt to show a gaggle of really slow, really cheap CPUs can solve the world's compute problems, because the problem is defined as '$/operation'. No innovation need apply.

Well, for some, maybe that is a problem. I happen to believe the larger problem is not $ but time. You can buy CPUs, but you can't buy time.

The answer is faster compute, not cheaper. I'd rather continue to pay X and get faster/more reliable results, instead of paying something less than X and getting slower/less reliable results. Time is money, at least for workloads which are interesting to me as a VP of a business. Sure, there are workloads which aren't and maybe cheaper is better, where you don't really care about the results that much (in terms of making $ or saving $). I'm just sayin'.

Rob


---
Robert Peglar
Vice President, Technology, Storage Systems Group

Email: mailto:Robert...@xiotech.com
Office: 952 983 2287
Mobile:314 308 6983
Fax: 636 532 0828
Xiotech Corporation
1606 Highland Valley Circle
Wildwood, MO 63005 http://www.xiotech.com/ : Toll-Free 866 472 6764

-----Original Message-----

The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/

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[Rao Dronamraju]

Ray,

 

Clouds and beyond is going to be IT but not Information Technology….Intelligence Technology!

 

It is going to be an era of IaaS – Intelligence as a Service!., Innovation as a Service!.

 

In addition, why would you think areas other than cloud will vanish?....

 

What will happen to Mobile/Pervasive/Ubiqutous Computing. Infact this area is going to complement clouds and grow tremendously.

 

The pervasive computing will grow lock step with clouds.

 

In addition, I have been working on Wearputers and Wearable Computing for 5+ years. This area has not grown as fast as I would love to see, but Wearputers will be the wave of the future, next 10+ years.

Wearputers will complement Pervasive Computing.

 

 

---

[Rao Dronamraju]

"Yet, out there in cloud-buying land, everyone is saying the same thing -
"we are Rolex" - but not revealing to the consumer that they really have a
Timex inside the case."

In my clouds....its has always been $2000 Dominatrix(s):-)

[Ray DePena]

Rao,

All of which require a level of specialization that few have.  What I seem to be hearing is that the days of "general IT" are over (or soon to be) as we know it.

-RD

[Ray DePena]

2009 & 2010: Years To Make Or Break A Career In IT

[Rao Dronamraju]

Ray,

 

The title of the artcile sounds as if one should bolt from IT or stay put, but the substance of the article is vague.

 

I am not worried about “the days of general IT are over” as you put it.

 

Clouds alone will take 10 to 15 years. Even assuming that IT (Information Technology or Information Processing) might be at peril after that,

 

Think of automation of the world. This is not very different from IT. After you have processed the information/intelligence, you interface with the mechanical world to execute.

 

This itself takes anywhere between 50 to 100 years for quantitative and qualitative automation of the world.

 

So I am not really worried about vanishing careers, it just takes a lot more interesting detour IMO.

[Tim M. Crawford]

Interestingly, this subject has been a topic of my presentations over the past year. Of the CIO's I speak with, they're not looking to shed jobs. However, they are looking to increase the responsiveness, reduce costs, etc.

I just penned a blog entry on this subject to explain it in a bit more detail. It may be a bit controversial. But hopefully it will generate some good dialog in the process.

-t

____________________________________

Tim M. Crawford

+1.650.804.1300

tim.cr...@gmail.com

http://timcrawford.org/

[Ray DePena]

Rao,

When the human genome project began in the late '80s, I remember thinking that at the current rate of progress it'll take 30 years to complete.  A year or two later they had calculated that it wouldn't take 30, but 15-20 years.  Ultimately it took a few years less than 15. 

And this didn't have the immediate cost reduction benefits that CC does, and we are in an economic business environment that creates a lot of pressure for immediate cost reductions.

So I'll guess 8-10yrs rather than 10-15yrs.  As for the "automation of the world", it sounds much more specific than "general IT".  The skill sets will probably be somewhat different (more expansive) than current IT skills.

I'm thinking from the perspective of a 20 something yr old majoring in IT today.  Their curriculum is from the '90s at best.  Most college curriculums haven't changed in a very long time. 

How should those change to accommodate cloud computing and beyond?

If you were 20yrs old today, would you major in IT?

-RD